Fox News: White House can’t quite explain how people ended up on Axelrod’s spam list
posted at 8:30 pm on August 17, 2009 by Allahpundit
They have theories, mind you. But the theories don’t add up.
The White House told FOX News that third-party groups sending online petitions to the official administration Web site could be to blame for a rash of e-mails that have gone out to people who never requested them. The theory is that these groups are including the names and e-mails of members and petition-signers along with the petitions themselves, in turn embedding those e-mails into the White House distribution list…
Griffith, who works for the American Association of Christian Schools in Washington, D.C., said she got the e-mail in her office account even though she’s careful not to use her work e-mail for anything that’s not office related. She said she has submitted questions through the Whitehouse.gov Web site using her personal e-mail address, but those questions were never answered. She said she never signed up for any updates or petitions with any group…
Anita Donaldson, a stay-at-home mom in Arlington, Va., told FOXNews.com she’s received a slew of unwanted e-mails from the White House on everything from health care reform to Father’s Day ever since she sent some e-mails to Washington via the FreedomWorks Web site.
That was not a petition, though. And it was not sent directly through the White House page. She sent the messages, protesting the stimulus package and other proposals, through one of many “action alerts” featured on the FreedomWorks page. The pages allow readers to submit comments to the White House and other government officials through an application called Capwiz.
“Apparently it has put me on some mailing list,” Donaldson said. “I get fairly frequent e-mails on a variety of subjects. … One was even from Michelle Obama herself.”
Alternate theory: Nutroots jackasses are spamming their conservative acquaintances by signing them up for White House propaganda. I find that one hard to believe, just because the reports of Axelrod spam are fairly widespread — we got a bunch ourselves last week — whereas the nastiness needed to motivate someone to sign someone else up for spam is (hopefully) fairly rare. I did get several e-mails from people who told me they’d sent the White House messages in the past (in one case, it was a message of congratulations for winning the election) only to find themselves receiving WH spam thereafter. Sounds like either Team Barry had a program in place that harvested the addresses of messages it received or, more disconcertingly, that they’re making deals with outside parties for their e-mail lists. Usually it’s the Obama campaign that’s being solicited for donor lists, not vice versa, but maybe health care is important enough to them that they felt obliged to expand their reach of contacts. Keep digging, Fox! Exit question: The White House, possibly amassing lists of members of outside organizations? What could go wrong?
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I just want to know why my spam filter didn’t block that mass email.
jhffmn on August 17, 2009 at 8:32 PM
I love receiving emails from the WH, President Obama, David A, & Michelle. They make me feel special.
hottieinthehouse on August 17, 2009 at 8:35 PM
Transparency Will Be Touchstone……….
Seven Percent Solution on August 17, 2009 at 8:35 PM
Good lord.
BacaDog on August 17, 2009 at 8:36 PM
I was certain this was gonna be Bush/Rove/Cheney’s fault.
Left Coast Right Mind on August 17, 2009 at 8:37 PM
What did the email say? That he had $787 billion that he needs to deposit into your account for a little while, and you can keep 20% if you just sent him your account info?
pedestrian on August 17, 2009 at 8:37 PM
Shep Smith: “so what”
Amadeus on August 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM
The basic MO of the White House.
When you get caught, blame someone else.
milwife88 on August 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM
It is what is. Thw White House is lobbying, it’s illegal, they don’t care, they thought they’d get a pass. These morons push the envelope at every turn and MSM just looks away for the most part.
Tim Zank on August 17, 2009 at 8:39 PM
I hate to sound conspiratorial here, but I don’t think any of us have any idea that magnitude of the nutroots left machine. The most obvious example would be digg.com. I think we’re all familiar with what goes down over there.
There is a lot of money and power behind what I can only guess are millions of college kids, etc.
RightWinged on August 17, 2009 at 8:40 PM
I know a group of guys who have abused both internet and the postal service harrassing each other for the simple thrill of it.
I imagine vindictive libs could do much worse.
Disturb the Universe on August 17, 2009 at 8:42 PM
Disturb the Universe on August 17, 2009 at 8:42 PM
This doesn’t mean it’s not encouraged by Axelrod.
Disturb the Universe on August 17, 2009 at 8:43 PM
How did I get so lucky? I didn’t get any WH spam, after sending my marxist congresswoman a PDF copy of HR3200. I’m amazed. Or, perhaps, my spam filter works…..
BottomLine5 on August 17, 2009 at 8:43 PM
Shep Smith is doing the same thing trolling for dates…
d1carter on August 17, 2009 at 8:44 PM
I’m feeling a little left out that I didn’t get one. What’s a guy gotta do to get spammed by his President?
Left Coast Right Mind on August 17, 2009 at 8:44 PM
Lots of time and technology with which to cause mischief.
Disturb the Universe on August 17, 2009 at 8:44 PM
So I’m not an expert in web programming, but I know enough to be very suspicious of the weird theory that some “3rd party organization” “uploaded” some e-mails which somehow got appended to the White House mailing list.
Perhaps someone at the level of guru can confirm or dis-confirm, but this is patent BS. A White House web programmer has to write a script to actively capture those e-mail addresses.
The metaphor being pushed by the White House is that a few post-it notes with e-mail addresses fell into the drawer with some other e-mail addresses, and voila, a snafu.
This metaphor is absolutely inapplicable.
A better metaphor would be: there was locked cabinet containing email addresses that came in clearly marked from various sources which it would be unethical to use for marketing purposes. Someone at the White House said to a timid programmer “open that cabinet and give me those goddammed email addresses or your fired.”
See the difference?
jeff_from_mpls on August 17, 2009 at 8:45 PM
At a loss for words here…..
Patrick S on August 17, 2009 at 8:45 PM
Maybe they were clicking on these USA.gov ads to my right? 3 on one page!
misslizzi on August 17, 2009 at 8:45 PM
I know Gibbs is going to have great explanation…just as he gets done “needling” Major Garrett.
d1carter on August 17, 2009 at 8:46 PM
More impeachable actions from the White House. Add it to the list.
I loved the way Gibbels handled it all. For anyone who didn’t think there was something fishy about the whole White House spam operation, which is a jailable offense, Gibbels left no doubt that something stinks to high heaven about this.
progressoverpeace on August 17, 2009 at 8:47 PM
The end that squirts out the model glue needs to be pointed away from your head.
Chuck Schick on August 17, 2009 at 8:48 PM
I think there is a major leak in those tubes that carry e-mails. I mean you send an internet and it could go anywhere. Who’s to say the addresses don’t get all mixed up in there in e-space.
It makes as much sense as anything they are saying.
Lily on August 17, 2009 at 8:49 PM
Can you imagine if the WH is so protective of email accounts what will happen when the government starts digitalizing health care records and storing them in databases.
HoustonRight on August 17, 2009 at 8:49 PM
I don’t know what happened, but after the way the Obama donations were spammed, I don’t doubt anything.
Imagine ACORN workers sitting down and filling out fake voter registration cards for hours and end, and it no longer seems a stretch to picture them entering email addresses on the WH spam list.
MayBee on August 17, 2009 at 8:50 PM
I’m still shaking my head and blinking my eyes…..
thomasaur on August 17, 2009 at 8:50 PM
At a loss for words here…..
Patrick S on August 17, 2009 at 8:45 PM
I’m still shaking my head and blinking my eyes…..
thomasaur on August 17, 2009 at 8:50 PM
Guys, don’t waste your time. He/she is obviously on 15 minutes break at Starbucks and the manager monitors the employees free “wi-fi” time.
milwife88 on August 17, 2009 at 8:54 PM
There you go. They’re pushing a theory only a Democrat could believe.
Information doesn’t sort of get lost on a web site, or accidentally fall out of the tubes, as you say.
Funny thing about computer programs, they do precisely what they’re instructed to do.
jeff_from_mpls on August 17, 2009 at 8:54 PM
Not to be alarmist or anything…BIG BROTHER is watching YOU…and you…and you…
Yeah, that gargantuan medical database, complete with bank account information, is SUCH a GOOD IDEA!
8>(
hillbillyjim on August 17, 2009 at 8:55 PM
The posting on the White Housewebsite itself is just soooo snotty:
That sounds so un-White House like.
MayBee on August 17, 2009 at 8:55 PM
Oh it was a mistake alright,piff,
its a White House Grand Conspiracy Cabal!!!!!!!!!
canopfor on August 17, 2009 at 8:55 PM
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/08/17/internet-snitch-brigade-disabled-but/
Based on Michelle’s research, they are still at it, just under another name.
milwife88 on August 17, 2009 at 8:55 PM
In other news, Helen Jones-Kelley still walks free…
Jim Treacher on August 17, 2009 at 8:55 PM
OT
That’s what I think every time I see Shep Smith on Fox: So what. How does he manage to hold down that time slot with Beck breathing down his neck?
DrStock on August 17, 2009 at 8:56 PM
A reasonably well-raised adolescent gets the idea that when you’re dealing with people’s private information, you err on the side of caution.
The disgraceful prigs who wrote that response proved by the condescension of their message that they have no intention of respecting our privacy. They confirm our suspicions even as try to dismiss them.
jeff_from_mpls on August 17, 2009 at 8:59 PM
Not really. Cant tell you how many times my weblogs have been porn spammed as well as my emails. There are some lefty nutters that do that crap.
William Amos on August 17, 2009 at 8:59 PM
That simple. Occam’s Razor.
rrpjr on August 17, 2009 at 9:01 PM
hottieinthehouse on August 17, 2009 at 8:35 PM
If that is all it takes, you should be on that old Mad TV bit, Lowered Expectations.
kingsjester on August 17, 2009 at 9:02 PM
I’m not as suspicious as Jeff. Remember in the movie Independence Day how Will Smith uploads that computer virus into the Alien mothership and saves Earth? And after all, Will Smith will play Pres Obama in the Movie….are you saying these are all coincidences? No Way!
Red State State of Mind on August 17, 2009 at 9:02 PM
Spammer-in-Chief.
TheBigOldDog on August 17, 2009 at 9:02 PM
Well, good for you… Cuz their the only ones that do.
FontanaConservative on August 17, 2009 at 9:03 PM
Hey, we let the idiot messiah get away with illegally running a campaign stop in Germany (that was a national embarrassment) and then we let him collect anonymous cash on his campaign web site, so he could get oodles of money from anyone, anywhere in the world … he figures that he can email anyone he wants, for any reason.
progressoverpeace on August 17, 2009 at 9:03 PM
I think that the gist of the whole thing is this–they don’t know how to do anything else besides campaign. That’s it.
hillbillyjim on August 17, 2009 at 9:03 PM
The White House can’t explain? Bullshit. They can explain, they just won’t. They are involved.
ICBM on August 17, 2009 at 9:04 PM
My hope is changing.
John the Libertarian on August 17, 2009 at 9:05 PM
It’s not that they can’t explain. It’s that they choose not to explain.
kingsjester on August 17, 2009 at 9:06 PM
Excellent!
lovingmyUSA on August 17, 2009 at 9:07 PM
She already did. Here’s her tape
FontanaConservative on August 17, 2009 at 9:08 PM
Hey Youth Army, how’s that hope & change working out for you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mvP0ArKIGY
Jeff from WI on August 17, 2009 at 9:09 PM
They won’t explain because it’s ILLEGAL!
SouthernGent on August 17, 2009 at 9:10 PM
Actually Will Smith wasn’t the one to invent & up load that virus.
Jeff from WI on August 17, 2009 at 9:11 PM
I haven’t seen Michelle’s bare arms & $800 sneekers on TV lately.
Jeff from WI on August 17, 2009 at 9:13 PM
Something stinks about the whole deal. I don’t trust anything coming out of the Whitehouse spin.
TXMomof3 on August 17, 2009 at 9:13 PM
“Dear Friend:
I desperately need your help. I am the wife of an African president. 100 million American dollars are tied up in an overseas bank account, but given the unAmerican tone of politics in my country, I cannot safely access any of it. I need a good honest friend in America to take possession of these funds in their own name so that the monies can be forwarded to 1053 charities for my children to benefit. Send me your bank account number and a test payment of $20 and I will richly reward you.
May God bless you, M.O.”
Chris_Balsz on August 17, 2009 at 9:21 PM
Spammer in Chief.
ronsfi on August 17, 2009 at 9:26 PM
Is “invoked” the word of the month for Obama?
Inartful is gone, though its not a real word.
Nuance?
Malleable?
DSchoen on August 17, 2009 at 9:26 PM
This serves a more primary purpose of preventing that pesky voice-of-the-people thing from ever reaching their collective ears. Keep telling yourselves the protests don’t represent America.
schafkopf on August 17, 2009 at 9:27 PM
They could really easily fix this by implementing a double opt-in system, which means that once someone signs up, they’d have to confirm by clicking a link in an email sent to them.
This means that however someone’s address got on the list, by nefarious means or not, they would have to verify that they want to receive these emails. Will they implement that? Probably not.
ryanc on August 17, 2009 at 9:40 PM
Wonder what Vivek’s been up to.
Christien on August 17, 2009 at 9:46 PM
The “email fiasco,” for want of a better term, was orchestrated by Axelrod, with the knowledge of the White House, and once caught in the headlights it is fobbed off on a third-party and not very well, either.
Any other even seemingly innocent alibis given is a poorly crafted alibis, and nowhere near the truth.
It backfired. Now there is blowback. The White House is attempting to minimize blowback by citing a third party as the culprit.
Classic.
But, one then has to ask, how was this list of email addees composed? Why is there still an Obama campaign apparatus up and running? Why would anything be put under Axelrod’s name, sent to ordinary Americans? There are laws on the books to prevent the White House being used to generate campaign materials. There are laws on the books to preent the White House from destroying correspondence sent to or from the White House.
There is more to this “email fiasco” than meets the average eye.
And the White House knows it.
coldwarrior on August 17, 2009 at 9:46 PM
So far their excuses don’t wash. Not that they don’t already have a credibility problem.
GarandFan on August 17, 2009 at 9:48 PM
So the White House isn’t properly opting in these people? That is against the CAN-SPAM federal act, and they can be brought up on federal charges.
Just saying.
smfoushee on August 17, 2009 at 9:49 PM
“As I have always said, Don’t impute your illiteracy to me with regards to my invented vocabulary.”–The Jug-eared One
hillbillyjim on August 17, 2009 at 9:49 PM
That was my experience. I didn’t write the filthy liar to congratulate him but, rather, to express my opposition to the Stimulus Bill. Then I started getting spam from the filthy liar on a regular basis.
highhopes on August 17, 2009 at 9:57 PM
Lest we forget…”jiggering a lock,” and “miscalibrated my words”…to name but two of the more recent sterling usages of the English language from a Harvard graduate.
coldwarrior on August 17, 2009 at 9:58 PM
There was this son of a dem from TN who hacked into Gov Palin’s e-mail account . How was he rewarded by Obama ? Does anyone know?
Is he working his talents @ the WH snitchmail office now?
macncheez on August 17, 2009 at 10:14 PM
Yet another opportunity for them all to smile and say “gee…we don’t know how that happened”. I wish someone up there would grow a conscience. Oh, nevermind. I forgot. They don’t HAVE ONE!
Yellowdog12 on August 17, 2009 at 10:23 PM
macncheez on August 17, 2009 at 10:14 PM
According to the Knoxville paper, the Kernell case was still working its way through the system in mid-July. Defense attorney was making a stink then about getting some documents from Palin before she stepped down.
Another speculation (out of left field)- wonder if any of this came from Obama’s super-duper Blackberry?
cs89 on August 17, 2009 at 10:30 PM
Vivek?
Vivek Kundra Chief Information Officer
Isn’t he the convict? Yes he is 1996,
Hummmmmmmm?
Well not yet.
And now we have this IT SNAFU
Things that make ya go hummmmmmm?
DSchoen on August 17, 2009 at 10:46 PM
I am not sure who all got emails, but let me tell you what happened to me. I emailed the White House right after the Gatesgate affair, asking how anyone could come to a conclusion about a police officers actions immediately after saying that he did not have all the facts. And oh, by the way, why is the POTUS inserting himself into a local affair? I asked for a reply, and of course, got none. A couple of days later though, I was privileged to get an email from “The One” himself asking for my help in screwing over the United States. At the bottom of the email in small print was printed the ability to unsubscribe and get no further emails from the Messiah. Of course I did. I should note that I did not ask to be put on any mailing list, and this particular email had noting to do with the way “The One” bungled the Gates affair. It was WH spam, pure and simple. Is that illegal? Don’t know, but it is certainly arrogant to think that everyone that emails the WH wants to get spam from them.
kam582 on August 17, 2009 at 10:48 PM
Heh.
James on August 17, 2009 at 10:53 PM
Should rear, doesn’t want to explain
Cause if they did a whole lot of splaining needs to be done
bluegrass on August 17, 2009 at 10:54 PM
Well his entire defense is that “it was illegal for Palin to have a personnel e-mail account”.
Since last week the judge threw out the lawsuit against Palin, again she did nothing wrong, Kernell, the arrogant dumb $hit, should be getting ready for 5 years in Federal prison.
On the bright side, Kernell will have lots of friends in prison, he won’t be a lonely boy that’s for sure.
DSchoen on August 17, 2009 at 11:02 PM
In the end Kernell will get his punishment.
coldwarrior on August 17, 2009 at 11:06 PM
It must have been Sarah Palin hacking into the WH system and sending those spams out.
Hey, if the MSM can sell it, run with it.
Sapwolf on August 17, 2009 at 11:14 PM
“Pucker up boy.” will be a common sentence in the young Kernell’s future.
Sapwolf on August 17, 2009 at 11:15 PM
Brought to you by the same people who made fun of Bush’s antiquated computer systems.
Most technologically savvy administration evah!
The Ugly American on August 17, 2009 at 11:22 PM
It took Team Obama four days to come up with a ‘scapegoat’ to blame! And only after FNC filed an FOIA. Some transparency…
TN Mom on August 17, 2009 at 11:29 PM
He is a articulate fellow.
hillbillyjim on August 17, 2009 at 11:34 PM
I need hip waders for this White House explanation.
jack herman on August 18, 2009 at 12:21 AM
really allah.. can we move on to something more productive here?
cubbieblue25 on August 18, 2009 at 12:36 AM
I got the two unsolicited e-mails from Axelrod last week. The first one appeared in my inbox, not my spam folder, less than five hours after I sent an e-mail flagging BHO in a video for spreading “disinformation” on healthscare. The “flag yourself” video made me do it!
My question is should I unsubscribe or keep myself on the “list” to see what they are saying? It really does freak me out that they have my real e-mail address and not my spam one.
margategop517 on August 18, 2009 at 1:06 AM
Now that I think about it, when Larry Summers said that this recession is over because decline in Google searches prove it, he should have been investigated .
He got away with it and WH assumed that they could carry on with no one noticing.
Darn that Major Garret, Gibblet had to work over the weekend practicing his poker face.
macncheez on August 18, 2009 at 1:22 AM
So the astroturf kings at the Whitehouse setup an Orwellian ‘turn-in-your-neighbor’ for re-education site and sent out spam inviting activists to launch a spam campaign, then everyone that goes to the “BigBrother” site gets spammed… go figure. So first the Whitehouse claims it isn’t happening, then it’s not their fault, and now it’s those evil “other guys”. Suuuuuuure it is. Just like Al Gore’s illegal fundraising e-mails just disappeared.
Remember Howard Dean’s spam campaign?
DANEgerus on August 18, 2009 at 1:46 AM
[sarcasm]The most transparent administration in US history! Change you can believe in![/sarcasm]
Dickie Dunn on August 18, 2009 at 4:41 AM
Judge Napolitano handed it to the WH this AM. Said that compiling any list of “dissenters” is illegal, and this tech-savvy WH should have known that. Says Obama took an OATH to uphold the law of the land.
Also, The Judge called Major Garrett’s uncovering of this “historic”.
Thank God for Fox News.
Grace_is_sufficient on August 18, 2009 at 7:41 AM
Its like a bad Scooby Doo cartoon. I can just see Axelrod telling Barry and Rahm “I would have gotten away with it too if it wasnt for those meddling kids (over at Fox News)”
proudteadrinker on August 18, 2009 at 7:55 AM
They’re making it up as they go. Sounds like desperation to me. This administration has made so many blunders in such a short time, that’s historic.
scalleywag on August 18, 2009 at 8:23 AM
I am drifting between outrage and ennui. The actions of this whitehouse are vile, but what’s new? Are any of us surprised by the depths to which they will sink? The only part of it that shocks me is how blatant they are about what they do. Do they believe we are that stupid? Do they just not give a damn about getting caught? Both?
SKYFOX on August 18, 2009 at 8:24 AM
It’s a combination of arrogance and ignorance, I think. They think they can do whatever they want and if people balk, so what.
scalleywag on August 18, 2009 at 8:33 AM
Christien on August 17, 2009 at 9:46 PM
Me too. Who is Vivek accountable to? Oh, that’s right. He’s an unconstitutional “czar”. He’s accountable to no other branch of government so nobody can investigate him – except Holder, who is too busy dropping already-won criminal cases intended to protect the integrity of our electoral process…
Before Congress does anything on government-run health rationing or anything else they need to throw these bums out of office on Constitutional grounds. Our system has worked this long because the Constitution has built-in checks and balances and the separation of powers. If that is broken – and it is – this country is nonfunctional.
My daughter’s AP government class textbook was an eye-opener for me. It talked about democracy involving majority rule and minority rights but didn’t anywhere talk about LIMITED GOVERNMENT – that we are protected from however the majority wants to control us by a Constitution which limits what government can even delve into. It’s not “the majority” that the Constitution protects us from – it’s the government, period – whether that’s the majority in Congress or some federal bureaucrat getting in our face in our own little hometown.
I haven’t read the textbook far enough to see if they bother to mention that we are a republic, not a democracy. I don’t hold out a lot of hope for them explaining why the Founders established us as a Constitutional republic rather than a democracy, which the Founders knew could never last.
justincase on August 18, 2009 at 9:22 AM
One question for those who have received the unsolicited e-mails: How has your computer been behaving since receiving them?
For computer experts, how hard would it be for Axelrod to get his e-mails past a spam filter?
justincase on August 18, 2009 at 9:24 AM
It is perfectly obvious that they wanted people to “turn in” the statements of people opposed to health care, and they are going through those emails EXTRACTING the email addresses of the person who was turned in.
How do they explain the teen age minor who I saw on Fox this morning. Her father says that they have never went on any government sites, yet his minor daughter is receiving emails from Axelrod. Now just how did HER email address get to the white house?
Ther needs to be a MAJOR investigation of this, but we all know this commie pig congress will do nothing about it just as they do nothing about the AG and the black panthers.
patriotparty1 on August 18, 2009 at 9:49 AM
They not only can’t explain it they haven’t stopped the practice(s). There is a concerted effort on the part of this White House to take away privacy and civil liberties all under the banner of hope and change.
What follows is an examination of the federal government’s attempts to track the web habits of every single citizen in the United States that merely visits a government site for the purpose of gaining information from a government that is supposed to serve them. This current dust up about spammed emails and reporting on your neighbors is but a symptom of a much greater disease, intentionally transmitted by the federal government behind your back and without your best interests in mind. Big Brother IS Watching You
shhhithitsthefan on August 18, 2009 at 10:56 AM
It’s great to see that it was the civil libertarians over at FoxNews that called the White House out on this probably illegal and obviously misguided operation.
And where were the “Titans of the 4th Estate” ? Sucking the gas pipe.
J_Crater on August 18, 2009 at 11:09 AM
That’s what happened to my mother. She unsubscribed but then a few days later wanted to send another email to the White House. She’s decided to stay on the email list this time.
Esthier on August 18, 2009 at 11:35 AM
Hey justincase,
Funny you should say that as everything has been extremely slow since last week, when I got the Axelrod e-mails. I am not too computer savvy and my husband who is was not home at the time, but last week my laptop said it had to do some scans, updates, whatever, but it went on for a good half hour and when it came back on, it started acting funny, not only slow, but sometimes freezing, and not allowing me to easily switch from the internet to e-mail to Office.
Now I am really freaked. Should I unsubscribe and block Axelrod & any WH e-mails I get, even though I never opted to receive any of them and I have no idea how they got my e-mail in the first place (but it did start five hours after I sent in a video of BHO spreading “disinformation” to flag@whitehouse.gov? What should I do?
Thanks!
margategop517 on August 18, 2009 at 12:20 PM
I’ve sent a dozen emails, if not more, to the white House and NEVER got one reply (even though I asked for one). I sent an email to flag@whitehouse.gov and got Axelrod’s email to support Obamacare. No one has to tell me where that particular email came from. Now I’m interested in why the US is giving Brazil 1 billion to explore offshore drilling and won’t allow investment in drilling here. I am also asking why the US Gov has decided to celebrate the month of Ramadan when it doesn’t celebrate any other religious affiliation in this country. No answers yet on either issue.
elclynn on August 18, 2009 at 12:54 PM
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