Rasmussen: GOP now more trusted on health care than Democrats
posted at 1:55 pm on August 13, 2009 by Allahpundit
For the first time in more than two years. Change:
Democrats held a four-point lead on the issue last month and a 10-point lead in June. For most of the past two years, more than 50% of voters said they trusted Democrats on health care. The latest results mark the lowest level of support measured for the party on the now-contentious issue.
Public support for the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats has fallen to a new low with just 42% of U.S. voters now in favor of it. That’s down five points from two weeks ago and down eight points from six weeks ago.
Overall, Republicans lead Democrats in terms of voter trust on eight out of 10 key issues for the second consecutive month, and the two are tied on one issue.
Among those eight out of 10: Social security and education, which suggests the backlash is no longer isolated to ObamaCare but is spreading to the whole statist Great Society agenda. And yet … something in the way of health-care reform is guaranteed to pass, whether in the form of a public option or a “co-op” with government oversight a la Fannie/Freddie, and once it does the federal role is bound to expand over time until even the conservative agenda incorporates it as a political fact of life. (Just as it’s done with, er, social security and education.) To see what that portends for the future of the GOP, check out the abuse Daniel Hannan’s taking from British conservatives for daring to warn Americans that national health care is a clusterfark waiting to happen. Quote from Tory leader David Cameron: “I support the NHS 100% and the Conservative Party supports the NHS 100%.” With the British public having been weaned for decades on “free” health-care, he has no choice but to take that line, really; radical change in the form of a return to private health-care would be even more explosive than the GOP pushing privatization of social security. Result: Bipartisan British “consensus” that socialized medicine is the truth, the way, and the light. I’m looking forward to it here circa 2040.
Here’s Hannan on last night’s Hannity, refusing to quiet down.
Blowback
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Just don’t ask about profit margin at the Law Firm….. LOL
Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Insurance…never heard any complaints about Big Law….but I’m sure that is a coincidence.
search4truth on August 13, 2009 at 2:44 PM
No one stops you from buying insurance for as many people as you want. So, how many people are you buying insurance for?
lorien1973 on August 13, 2009 at 2:31 PM
I love this type of question. Funny thing, though, it never gets answered.
WashJeff on August 13, 2009 at 2:42 PM
Actually, I own a small business so I insure 22 people. Thanks for asking. Next.
hottieinthehouse on August 13, 2009 at 2:45 PM
I thought all those banks we own were going to loosen up credit? No? I am shocked.
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 2:45 PM
Oh man, do I feel your pain. Different circumstances, same results. I think I’m getting my situation corrected next week, though.
You know, a year ago, this problem would not exist….
ladyingray on August 13, 2009 at 2:45 PM
I think you meant “suckled,” not “weaned.” And we think such suckling promotes regression, not maturity; that is, the longer the people suckle at the teat of the government, the more dependent they become.
Exit question: When Zeus takes over, what happens to the nurslings of Kronos?
Kralizec on August 13, 2009 at 2:45 PM
Hey TXMom:
Remember guns don’t kill people but husbands that come home early do :0
HoustonRight on August 13, 2009 at 2:46 PM
So you want the government to destroy the best medical system in the world so you can dump your employees?
darwin on August 13, 2009 at 2:46 PM
so now i can’t reserve a room without one. i think ill just go find a bush to sleep in. i saw some nice ones at the national mall in february.
plus, healthcare will be free by then, perhaps, so if i get bitten by an animal, i wont have to pay for anything.
you will!
blatantblue on August 13, 2009 at 2:47 PM
Thats nice. And that would be what kind of business? But then again you didn’t answer Lorien’s question.
And if you are an employeer paying part of your employee’s health insurance (as most employeers do) or do you make them get Aflac.. because you don’t wanna deal with BlueCross/Blueshield?
upinak on August 13, 2009 at 2:47 PM
I am the biggest fan on Earth of oil companies. They pay both my husband’s and my salary. You won’t find me bashing.
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 2:47 PM
And I bet your employees do not like the idea of government run health insurance.
Funny how you seem to be arguing for Government run health insurance but not trying to show your hand. But you have already done so.
Holger on August 13, 2009 at 2:48 PM
So you want to kick them to the taxpayers and increase your bottom line?
thomasaur on August 13, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Thats a big strip joint
faraway on August 13, 2009 at 2:49 PM
Troll alert: I and others schooled you about this bogus figure in another thread. Stop copying and pasting your nonsense into every thread you come across.
BuckeyeSam on August 13, 2009 at 2:49 PM
My husband doesn’t know what jealous is. He has enough ego not to have any creeping doubts. We’ve known each other since we were 14 and been married since we were 19.
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 2:49 PM
Prove it, poseur. When you posted that bogus 40 million uninsured, you revealed yourself as the donk troll you really are. Next.
Blake on August 13, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Oh, one of those “open” relationships?
You know I’m just giving you to a hard time
HoustonRight on August 13, 2009 at 2:51 PM
Email me. If you send it to the home address, I will not be able to check it until I get home.
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 2:51 PM
use your words!
use your brain!
blatantblue on August 13, 2009 at 2:51 PM
Wow! And you call us ignorant?
Government involvement is the number one cause of increased health care prices.
- Insurance is over regulated, especially not allowing people to buy across state lines.
- No tort reform, especially from democrats
- Failure to secure our borders and allow millions of illegals who use the medical system free. To make up for the costs, hospitals and clinics must charge higher prices, in turn forcing insurance companies to raise premiums.
All government caused.
darwin on August 13, 2009 at 2:51 PM
If you really owned a small business, you’d know that you do not, in fact, insure 22 people. They either pay for it (you deduct it from their check) or you cover it and pay the insurance company directly – and then they are taxed as a benefit for the coverage. You, as a business, do not ‘insure’ anyone.
But, then again, if you were providing coverage. You’d understand that you are part of the problem. Your contract with whatever insurance company you sign on with limits employee choice. They are forced to sign onto that company (or provide their own insurance) which limits the competitive bidding and price comparison from the thousands of other insurance companies out there.
But, given that you do not grasp this, I’m going to hazard to guess that no, in fact you do not own a business and no, you do not sure insure anyone.
Given your bouts of illogical reasoning we’ve seen of you here, I doubt you could form a coherent business plan.
lorien1973 on August 13, 2009 at 2:51 PM
Thumbs up for Hannan.
The closest thing we have to him on this side of the pond seems to be Peter Schiff.
jhffmn on August 13, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Maybe she got some work done. Michael Jackson’s plastic surgeon is off retainer now, you know.
hoosiermama on August 13, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Standing on the street corner doesn’t count as a ‘small business’, hottie.
HornetSting on August 13, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Or not.
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/polltracker/2008/11/ranking-the-accuracy-of-the-pr.html
ROCnPhilly on August 13, 2009 at 2:53 PM
And if there aren’t any?
ladyingray on August 13, 2009 at 2:53 PM
Hey, I own my own business and insure 18 million people.
Single payer now!
darwin on August 13, 2009 at 2:54 PM
You almost made me spit all over my monitor! I said he didn’t know what jealousy was, I would have to kill him. I am not the sharing type.
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 2:55 PM
word of mouth is killing this bill. It’s simply incredible that with the amount of money and resources the democrats are throwing they are not making a dent in public opinion. All the radio ads and television ads and Obama-lovefest media stories are wasted breath. is the country starting to wake up?
tflst5 on August 13, 2009 at 2:55 PM
Very Good points are made here. Yet, it has not yet been decided that we will have some kind of government plan forced upon us. Not only do we have our republican reps listening, but we have our democratic reps very scared for thier jobs at the moment. We can use this. We must not be silent now! We must all move to the next phase in this war to save our freedom. We have to begin to inform our representatives, that no public option is acceptable. We must demand that reform of the healthcare system exclude government interference from the right of doctors to have confidential relationships with their patients. Government may not even suggest the kind or type of care that is to be delievered, this must be the doctor’s choice only. In fact part of the reform should be to take the insurance companies out of the patient doctor relationship.
paulsur on August 13, 2009 at 2:55 PM
Sorry
HoustonRight on August 13, 2009 at 2:56 PM
sharing is caring.
blatantblue on August 13, 2009 at 2:56 PM
The doctor has to know what the insurance company will or will not pay for.
darwin on August 13, 2009 at 2:56 PM
We are all Kulaks and gotta go for the greater good of the party and the Revolution.
Holger on August 13, 2009 at 2:57 PM
You know you have to have a cougar tag to hunt them in Texas
HoustonRight on August 13, 2009 at 2:57 PM
Hootietootieinhose -
Let me explain the law of large numbers to you. When you have several entities paying premium based on individual losss experiences to a insurance company those premiums must be used to pay for the losses of a few. So lets say you (a single entity) pay $1000 for your insurance premium. in return the insurance company promises to defend you in a lawsuit and pay up to policy limits. You and several thousand other enitities with the exact same loss profile are each paying $1000. The combined premium will be in the millions. that premium is invested, but a huge portion of the premium goes to what we what we in the industry call “reserves”. Reserves are mandated by the states and feds to pay the obligations….basically make good on the promise.
Now, if you have trial lawyers who chase ambulances seeking damages and rewards without a cap, the entity (you) can have your little $1000 premium cover a $1,000,000 plus judgement against you. But, this comes at a cost. The insurance company looking to protect the reserves that they are mandated to have, needs to experience rate you based on your loss exposure…so guess what, your premium increases!
The villian here is NOT the insurance carrier. They met their obligation to the contract. The villian is the lawyer who raised the judgement by sensationalizing a small claim before a jury of sympathetic feeling libs like yourself.
Does that help? Oh, I bet I lost you at “large numbers”.
jbh45 on August 13, 2009 at 2:57 PM
dude if i went to texas
or the south in general
i think i’d be buying tags by the ten count
blatantblue on August 13, 2009 at 2:57 PM
A real “hotty” does not need to advertise the fact. Maybe wishful thinking, although, she might suffer from low self-esteem.
betsyz on August 13, 2009 at 2:57 PM
“If you believe in CHANGE! If you believe in a brighter day! Vote for Barack Obama! I will save the GOP! I will make it better! Stronger! Faster! … I’ll make it cool to be a Conservative again! I’ll turn the nation AGAINST the Unions, against Socialized Healthcare!
YES I CAN!”
Hey Libbies – can you see how the GOP is on the rise now? And the pathetic thing is – they didn’t do a damn thing to earn it.
But a win’s a win – and the Republicans will take it!
Can’t thank you guys enough!
HondaV65 on August 13, 2009 at 2:57 PM
And people say our pride is unsubstantiated
HoustonRight on August 13, 2009 at 2:59 PM
plenty of cougs up here
they are just harder eggs to crack, if you will
blatantblue on August 13, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Here are some quick ways to get yourself a credit history:
1. Get a department store card. Those are usually very easy to get. Charge something trivial on it, 20 bucks or so, and pay it back right away.
2. Join a credit union. As a student, you are probably eligible to join the university credit union, or your workplace may have a credit union. Failing that, you should be eligible to join any credit union where you have a close relative who is a member. Some churches and professional organizations have affiliations with credit unions, too.
Apply for a short-term small loan with the credit union. (In fact, tell the credit union loan officer that this is why you want the loan.) Don’t spend the money — park the money in a savings account with the credit union. Make all your loan payments on time, and at the end of the loan period, you’ll have a spotless credit record.
3. If none of that works, ask your bank about a secured credit card with a low limit. You’ll need to have the same amount of money on deposit with the bank as the amount of the credit card limit.
Hope this helps! More info here: http://financialplan.about.com/od/creditdebtmanagement/a/nocredit.htm
Mary in LA on August 13, 2009 at 3:00 PM
I could be Blatant’s mom. Of course, I would have been a 13 year-old mother.
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Hmmm … you insure 22 people? This might be a teachable moment for us teabagging rednecks.
I have some questions …
1. Who do you provide insurance through for your peeps?
2. How much do you pay per peep?
3. Will you switch your peeps to the public option when it becomes available?
4. How much do you think the public option will cost for each of your peeps? How much will it cost you?
In the spirit of debate, you see. :D
HondaV65 on August 13, 2009 at 3:01 PM
*doing the happy dance*
:-)
cmsinaz on August 13, 2009 at 3:02 PM
The insurance company does not need to know your personal health history to tell a doctor what procedures and practices they will or will not cover.
paulsur on August 13, 2009 at 3:03 PM
How symetrical I could be your dad at about the same time.
Oh wait
HoustonRight on August 13, 2009 at 3:04 PM
jbh, logic doesnt help them. You must appeal to their emotion.
faraway on August 13, 2009 at 3:05 PM
But what about the kittens?
AsianGirlInTights on August 13, 2009 at 3:05 PM
that was disrespectful. Seriously sorry for that one.
HoustonRight on August 13, 2009 at 3:05 PM
blatant, you are a bad egg.
faraway on August 13, 2009 at 3:05 PM
If Grassley votes for Obamacare I’m writing in Hannan.
jhffmn on August 13, 2009 at 3:06 PM
thanks, Mary.
blatantblue on August 13, 2009 at 3:06 PM
The problem I ran into is the bank will only recognize another MAJOR credit card as proof of good credit. A department store credit card doesn’t count.
Of course, that could be up to the particular bank, so BB may have different problems.
ladyingray on August 13, 2009 at 3:07 PM
I love kittens, but not as much as girls in tights.
lorien1973 on August 13, 2009 at 3:08 PM
The villian here is NOT the insurance carrier. They met their obligation to the contract. The villian is the lawyer who raised the judgement by sensationalizing a small claim before a jury of sympathetic feeling libs like yourself.
Does that help? Oh, I bet I lost you at “large numbers”.
jbh45 on August 13, 2009
Hottie may not appreciate the lesson, but I do. Thanks.
What, in your opinion, would be the effect of allowing more open competition across state lines?
SKYFOX on August 13, 2009 at 3:09 PM
I must not have caught it. We’re good.
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 3:09 PM
Dudes?
NoLeftTurn on August 13, 2009 at 3:10 PM
This thread has gotten completely out of hand.
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 3:10 PM
If you run around from thread to thread asking the same question but never considering any of the answers you receive, people are going to get the wrong idea about you.
DrSteve on August 13, 2009 at 3:10 PM
Oops! Here’s the link:
NoLeftTurn on August 13, 2009 at 3:10 PM
BB likes kittens too, but he prefers cougars….
HornetSting on August 13, 2009 at 3:11 PM
Or more likely…they’ll get the right idea about her.
AUINSC on August 13, 2009 at 3:11 PM
Hottie!
If you had read the bill, it is designed to destroy private insurance and get everyone (except Democrat Special Interests and Congress) onto a public plan.
Do you support a single payer system an if so, why?
Why should everyone be covered by a National Health System instead of allowed the opportunity to buy their own insurance and be in charge of their own care?
Why should we the People of America pay for illegal alien care?
Why should we not reform Tort to protect our health insurance from unethical lawyers?
Why shouldn’t we demand Medicare and Medicaid pay fair-market prices?
Holger on August 13, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Hint on that Blanty,
Get either a Macy’s, J.C.Penny or a Sears card. Youwill have to wait 6 months. But use it every month for 20 bucks and pay it off right away. 3rd or 4th month. Use it for 100 dollars and pay it in 2 months.
After that, major credit cards will let you get one of theirs.
That is how I got mine.
upinak on August 13, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Question that you do not have to answer: How old are you?
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 3:13 PM
Why don’t you people want retirees taken care of? You all are so shallow = Social Security, 10-15 trillion dollars in the hole
Why don’t you people want the poor clothed and fed? You all are so shallow = Welfare, dismantled 15 years ago
Why don’t you people want health care for the elderly? You all are so shallow = Medicare, 34-36 trillion dollars in the hole
Why don’t you people want affordable mortgages for low income families? You all are so shallow = Fannie/Freddie $400 billion bailout, GNMA to follow soon
Why don’t you people want health care for the poor? You all are so shallow = Medicaid, 34-36 trillion dollars in the hole
Chuck Schick on August 13, 2009 at 3:14 PM
old enough to know better but young enough not to care.
Isn’t that how old you are. :)
upinak on August 13, 2009 at 3:14 PM
I was born in 1964 and all my life the generation just before me told me to always question the goverment. Don’t let the government run your life. Watch out for the government!
Now these same people tell me that government is good. The government is here to help me and to question the government is racist, ignorant, unAmerican, and evil-mongering. Were they right before or are they right now.
HottieMcknownothing tells me that I am mean for not wanting to provide insurance for those helpless and hapless 40 million who we are dooming to a life of disease and trauma.
You can sign me up when the bastards who are writing this bill sign up themselves and their families for it. You can sign me up when Chicago Jesus stops lying about what is in the bill and let’s it stand on it’s own merits because it is so good. Until then, they can suck it.
John D on August 13, 2009 at 3:14 PM
Depends on the day. Some days I feel young and some days I feel middle-aged. When does middle-age start anyway. If I’m not there, I am pushing it.
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 3:17 PM
You missed one of the bigger ones, in foreign governments dictating to American pharma companies what they can charge over there for a new treatment – thus passing the remainder of the true cost of the treatment back to the American customers. All that R&D has to be amortized somehow, after all, and if the Canadians/British/French/Etc refuse to do it, the only people who will are here in the States.
In short, we’ve been subsidizing not only the rest of the West’s defense, and developed or invented most of everyone’s consumer electronics, we’ve also been picking up not quite 100% of the bill for advanced modern medicine. And this is what they want destroyed by “controlling costs?” Madness.
Blacksmith on August 13, 2009 at 3:17 PM
old enough to know better but young enough not to care.
Isn’t that how old you are. :)
upinak on August 13, 2009 at 3:14 PM
:-)
AsianGirlInTights on August 13, 2009 at 3:19 PM
That depends too. I think it is more a mind set then anything.
upinak on August 13, 2009 at 3:19 PM
You reap what you sow.
The Democrats got into power by doing absolutely nothing but demonizing Republicans, saying: “We can’t possibly do worse.”
Now that people are seeing Democrats in full action for the first time in 20 years, the “swing voters” are re-learning some painful lessons.
logis on August 13, 2009 at 3:20 PM
Googling it….
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 3:21 PM
I don’t think it is guaranteed but it is still possible.
Last night I watched FOX play a few Townhalls, Specter and Sestak Townhalls. The Dems have a new talking point strategy for the Townhalls, it goes like this:
1. Let the citizen cpeak. Even though most do not represent my district they have a right to be heard….
(at this point, politician performing in play may even physically extricate the angry citizen from the arms of the staged goon, thus demonstrating both moral and physical courage)
2. See Sestak’s interview with Greta on FOX, Wednesday aug 12 for a sample
the public response is great. as you know we are not a democracy, we are a democratic republic. The citizens do not just press a button and vote for things, They send me and my job is to listen, but ultimately I must make my own decision. If they do not like me, they will vote me out in the next election
at this point beads of sweat may form on the speaker’s brow which can be blamed on global warming
Foolishly, various lib pundits are confusing this strategy with sheep herding and that is a PR problem
The public-be-damned vote in favor of nationalizing healthcare may well happen if the DEMS decide they want to get out of power as the Depression and collapse of the dollar accelerates
They will have to sacrifice their inner pork monkey to give it all up for national health
This is a tough call. I do not assume they will be able to continue this strategy long enough to avoid poisoning all Health care proposals for a couple of years.
The funny mantra that the GOP must propose a counter bill has to be coming from the RINOs who are also in a closing time at the bar mood to clinch a deal
Right now conservatives need someone to blow it across the country that if we were not paying for illegal alien health care (by exporting non agricultural illegals), we could open up the ERs to mandated health care for the lower tier 20 million citizens who are currently unemployed/uninsured
Since we are already absorbing the illegal health care cost, there should be little change on the bottom line
i.e. illegal immigration has caused the health care problem
I don’t expect the RINOs and WHINOs in the GOP to allow this on their dime. Too bad. The time is ripe
entagor on August 13, 2009 at 3:22 PM
In hornet years?
HornetSting on August 13, 2009 at 3:22 PM
yea, but troll piñata is such a guilty pleasure.
bloviator on August 13, 2009 at 3:23 PM
No reason to feel old until you’re actually
You guessed it
OLD!!
blatantblue on August 13, 2009 at 3:23 PM
That right there IS an Obama voter!
Shouldn’t there be a requirement of an IQ at least in double digits to vote?
Don’t answer! I fear we have some Congress Critters and Senate Scum just as dumb!
dhunter on August 13, 2009 at 3:23 PM
Thank you, thank you. I lead the division in assists.
DrSteve on August 13, 2009 at 3:25 PM
mid·dle-aged
adjective
Definition:
1. no longer young: no longer considered young, but not yet considered old
2. characteristic of somebody middle-aged: relating to the behavior, attitudes, lifestyle, or interests considered characteristic of middle age, especially staidness, conventionality, or old-fashionedness
That is the best answer I could find. I think I am good.
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 3:25 PM
As long as you gave the answer in dog years, I could do the math.
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 3:25 PM
Baldies unite!
pseudonominus on August 13, 2009 at 3:26 PM
Liberals have a year to buy people’s votes. Frustrating to watch the power grab… GW Bush had nothing on these guys! They win if we are dependent on the government for things. It’s getting there fast.
We need to keep up the fight!
WyoMike on August 13, 2009 at 3:26 PM
I’m 36 in human years….
HornetSting on August 13, 2009 at 3:27 PM
To preface: I’ve seen a lot of discussions here break down into ad hominem arguments and name-calling on both sides, so I’d like to avoid that, here.
But isn’t Rasmussen a biased source? The President received money from the RNC and Bush campaign back in 2004 – isn’t that a little iffy? It seems like, though the Democrats are losing ground to the GOP, it hasn’t progressed as far as Rasmussen says.
zoax on August 13, 2009 at 3:29 PM
I am 35. What are of New Mexico do you live in?
TXMomof3 on August 13, 2009 at 3:30 PM
So now I know why you want us to pay for your insurance.
Johan Klaus on August 13, 2009 at 3:32 PM
Now I was out of work, because of illness, for two years. Do want to pay for my lost income?
Johan Klaus on August 13, 2009 at 3:35 PM
Southern….
HornetSting on August 13, 2009 at 3:36 PM
Yup…..and Ogabe really won election 2008 with the +11 Gallup called it eh?
Being owned by See BS, CNN, etc doesn’t alter the credbility of their polls….Mullah Zogby’s family being donks is not seen as taint….
ALL the polls show the mules imploding and the mules’ own actions support this….
Ogabe is not strutting like a winner this month.
sven10077 on August 13, 2009 at 3:37 PM
Technically, at this point, Rasmussen is an outlier, specifically the disapproval number. You can perform Chauvenet’s or Grubbs test on the numbers at RCP and see that the Z-value for Ras disapproval is outside the range (the approval number is ok though, barely worse than Ipsos).
What could be debated, however, is does this problem arise because 1) Rasmussen is a leading indicator (the other polls will catch up in time) or 2) the other polls tend to allow a larger population of “undecideds”?
LastRick on August 13, 2009 at 3:38 PM
\
I have always been uneasy with the “Waterloo” moniker. If and When this bill gets defeated, Obama will still be President. However he will be weakened, shown as vulnerable, and probably start more desperate acts to show he’s still “The One”.
No I don’t think it’s his Waterloo.
I think it’s his Stalingrad.
Wait… Does that make me a racist or an evil hatemonger? I’m getting confused as to what we’re being called now.
rihar on August 13, 2009 at 3:40 PM
Maybe that’s because RAS isn’t polling 11-year girls who voted for Bambi in their school “election.”
PackerBronco on August 13, 2009 at 3:47 PM
Hatemonger is the codeword for racist.
Johan Klaus on August 13, 2009 at 3:48 PM
Exactly. I work for an insurance company who gave up on the medical insurance business because it’s so hard to make a profit. We have to file our forms and rates with each state. Each state has strict rate requirements; our actuaries have to constantly provide data to prove why we charge a certain rate for different coverages. We’ve been out of medical now for 5 + years and it’s made life so much easier for all of us! We still handle life and health (DI)…I will now urge my company to look into “death panel” type coverage! Just kidding…I think.
(apologies if I use the quote tag wrong….I’m a newbie!)
atlgal on August 13, 2009 at 3:49 PM
Which part of socialiism do you not like?
Johan Klaus on August 13, 2009 at 3:50 PM
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