MSNBC host: Hey, wouldn’t Jesus want us to have universal health care?

posted at 10:09 pm on August 13, 2009 by Allahpundit

I wanted to write a post on that business industry study showing that the House’s global warming bill will bludgeon the economy, but it’s simply too depressing/enraging after a long week of depression and rage. Have at it in the comments if you can muster the energy. Instead, since we haven’t had a good religion food fight in a while, enjoy stalwart lefty Ed Schultz discovering the joys of faith-based politics. It’s a testament to how vile the left’s rhetoric has become, especially when mouthed by MSNBC’s primetime line-up of demagogues, that this line of attack comes off as comparatively genteel. Although maybe that’s due in part to Schultz’s guests here not barfing up the talking points he’s expecting. Take a page from Olbermann, Ed: Make sure to screen the guests for total ideological conformity before you put them on the air. That way there are no surprises.

My very strong suspicion is that if I posted this on a lefty site, all the Christians there would say yes, of course Jesus wants universal health care. As it is, opinion among Christians here will be unanimous that he doesn’t or that he’d have no opinion (“render unto Caesar,” etc.) Exit question: Aren’t the lefties right?

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I am just stating that he said nothing on the topic. Other people are trying to connect dots, even one who said Jesus was around before he was even born, and sorry but that makes absoultely no sense from a critical thinking perspective. Would my critical thinking be correct if I said that Ancient Greece became a glorious empire due to the favor of Zeus?

LevStrauss on August 14, 2009 at 12:29 PM

The problem is that you’re playing mix and match with theology.

You want to know what Jesus said but only within the context of your non-belief.

Which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, especially since He proclaimed Himself to be one with God (‘the Father and I are one’).

If you’re going to put importance on Jesus’ words, than ALL have to be important or none of them. Picking and choosing only gives us insight into the character of the person picking and choosing, NOT into the character of Jesus.

And if you decide to take ALL of Jesus’ words as being of equal importance then you have to at least acknowledge that Jesus claimed to be God.

And when you do that, then everything God says in the Old Testament then also becomes things that Jesus said.

You can’t engage believers in what they believe and then tell them that they can’t USE foundational tenants of their belief (Jesus is part of the trinity).

Religious_Zealot on August 14, 2009 at 12:36 PM

dominigan on August 14, 2009 at 8:30 AM

I’m glad this fiction writers guild is not writing our laws today since I don’t think the majority would be happy if the prescriptions found in Numbers, and the even more ludicrous Deuteronomy were applied today.

Annar on August 14, 2009 at 12:37 PM

Exit question: Aren’t the lefties right?

No. Leftie Christians usually conflate the duties prescribed by scripture for individuals with those of the state. Scripture views them as separate entities with differing goals and responsibilities.

TheUnrepentantGeek on August 14, 2009 at 12:38 PM

Not all Christian leaders have been silent on this issue – such as Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York , but i agree with the argument more needs to be done – and soon!

People need to understand the difference between what is being thrown in front of us right now with ‘Obamacare’ and what healthcare reform is: they are two completely different things. I think this has lead to a lot of confusion and heated debates even within Christian communities (I’ve had someone of my Church accuse me of wanting to deny healthcare to the poor because have been passionately anti-Obamacare).

The question of what would Jesus do is a good one here. It is not a ‘give to Caesar what is Caesar’s’ debate. It is a question of LIFE in all its stages. This is the issue that Christians should be outraged about, and defend out of love for their neighbor. This is what Jesus would do.

DeoGratias on August 14, 2009 at 12:39 PM

AP must be punking everyone unless his grasp on his own libertarianism is even flimsier than his understanding of Christian values.

We don’t NEED to quote scripture to dispute any value proposition the socialist left comes up with. We don’t need scripture because our argument has the benefit of historical evidence.

The fact is that socialized medicine either as single-payer systems in modern eurosocialist states or in universal healthcare in soviet-style command economies produce WORSE OUTCOMES THAN FREE-MARKET HEALTHCARE SYSTEMS.

I don’t need to quote the bible to conclude that Jesus Christ would have preferred his children to enjoy 24% the higher survival rates in Prostate Cancer, Breast Cancer and Colon Cancer in the US than in Britain. I don’t need scripture to understand that Christ would have preferred better overall OUTCOMES for his children without diminishing his greatest gift of freedom.

The entire argument that Christ would have preferred Universal Healthcare is specious because Christ ABOVE ALL would’ve preferred EFFECTIVE healthcare for ALL his people without diminishing their individual will.

Khorum on August 14, 2009 at 12:39 PM

Exit question: Aren’t the lefties right?

No

Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and might

The second commandment is to love they neighbor as thyself

He had no instructions for the Roman Empire although he had words for corrupt religious hypocrites. His instruction was directed, between God and man

The nature of the Gospels is to seek God through Christ and good will triumph.

The Left is busy detaching human life from God, which is the prime battle

While Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, he did not in any way say man had to facilitate, vote for, or approve Caesar’s quest for power.

In the liberal argument there is an unproven assumption their goal of nationalizing health care is more Christian than other solutions

Christ wouldn’t like partial birth abortion, of that I am certain, and I am also certain he would denounce those who oppose care for born alive late term abortions

Jesus directly addressed those who try to destroy faith

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Matt 18:6

The more I read, the more I see Jesus taught the importance of imposing moral law by seeking God, because a man with the Holy Spirit will do the right thing, but civil law enforced by the ungodly becomes ungodly

Since the National Health plan involves seizing assets and power over life and death from the populace, it is already on dangerous ground for Christians. Christ never endorsed forced redistribution of wealth, which was big in Roman Times. His directives on wealth were always towards individual conscience

entagor on August 14, 2009 at 12:39 PM

A Liberal quoting the Bible? Where did they find a Christian at BSNBC? I found it funny that “his kind”, love that, never what the Christian Right involved anything, but now he demands that the leaders come out.

ChiTownPizza on August 14, 2009 at 12:42 PM

Christ wouldn’t like partial birth abortion, of that I am certain, and I am also certain he would denounce those who oppose care for born alive late term abortions

Jesus directly addressed those who try to destroy faith

So then abortions are OK as long as you’re an atheist? This is exactly the danger in setting U.S. law by the dictates of a religious faith. Not all of us with social security numbers believe in this stuff and I don’t want my life governed by it.

Which is why the left is STUPID for trying to use Christianity as a justification for universal healthcare when there are just as many practical and good reasons to do so. But the majority of Democrat voters are so wishy washy (I dare anyone to find one who can list 5 central themes to their own personal ideology) that Dem advocates lunge for emotion when logic works just as well.

CrankyIndependent on August 14, 2009 at 12:44 PM

The WWJD argument accepts the Christian belief that Jesus has the power to heal everyone, yet ignores the scriptural evidence that Jesus healed according to the faith of the recipient. Universal ability does not equal universal application. Jesus never, never crossed the line of free will and personal choice. “I will stand at your door and knock” – NOT I will barge in whether you want me in or not and force you into a healthcare system whether you like it or not.

Romans34 on August 14, 2009 at 12:46 PM

The WWJD argument accepts the Christian belief that Jesus has the power to heal everyone, yet ignores the scriptural evidence that Jesus healed according to the faith of the recipient.

Actually, in many incidents He healed based on the faith of the people who brought the sick person to Jesus (e.g. the man lowered through the roof) or the faith of the person requesting Jesus to heal someone (e.g. Jairus)

Religious_Zealot on August 14, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Jesus was transparently a socialist. He said rich people couldn’t get into heaven. Obviously he’d favor a single payer healthcare system.

Enrique on August 14, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Jesus was transparently a socialist. He said rich people couldn’t get into heaven.

Enrique on August 14, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Wow. Ever hear of a book called the Bible?

Vashta.Nerada on August 14, 2009 at 12:59 PM

True critical thinking would be better described as “critical understanding”(a holistic and complete process).”Critical thinking” is taking into consideration complex and 100% proven phenomenom such as the spiritual nature of reality,the soul and spirit of the human being,the existence of the Passions and angelic and demonic entities,the existence of God the Holy Trinity and most importantly the relationship and encounter that all human beings can have with Him through overcoming the Passions and aligning with His Uncreated Divine Energies.

Pure rationality can lead to only an intellectual conceptualization of God but it is through our Nous(spirit) that we encounter God,it is through repentance and humility that we can overcome the Passions and when we do, we experience God. This is true for every human being and is a scientific process with repeatable results. This is what the Orthodox Church is for, it is a spiritual hospital that heals the sickness of the soul and if one follows the ascesis and liturgical life of the Church one will achieve these results.

By holding to your atheist anti-Christ humanist philosophy all you are essentially doing is intentionally limiting your perception of reality.

You are not open to experience reality and to encounter Christ through your Nous.

While 100% of reality is coming at you at every moment, you are only experiencing a tiny fraction of a percentage of it.
That is living in darkness.

MaximusConfessor on August 14, 2009 at 1:03 PM

Jesus was transparently a socialist. He said rich people couldn’t get into heaven.

Enrique on August 14, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Wow. Ever hear of a book called the Bible?

Vashta.Nerada on August 14, 2009 at 12:59 PM

I guess that today we have larger eyes in needles and smaller camels. (Matt 19:24 in that oft cited salvation narrative.)

Annar on August 14, 2009 at 1:06 PM

If Christians freely give of their substance — in money, materials, time — then that’s charity.

If Christians have their substance taken from them by the government, to be given to others as the government sees fit — then that’s socialism.

It’s a free will/individual liberty issue. Americans, and Christians in particular, are the most generous people in the world, when they’re allowed to be charitable. But when Americans are forced to give up their hard earned money (and make personal/family sacrifices) only to have it given away by the government to whoever THEY want to prop up, they justifiably rebel against this tyranny.

davethe10r on August 14, 2009 at 1:10 PM

Jesus was transparently a socialist. He said rich people couldn’t get into heaven. Obviously he’d favor a single payer healthcare system.

Enrique on August 14, 2009 at 12:55 PM

No, Enrique. You are transparently confused. It doesn’t take a socialist to recognize the implications to which Jesus referenced. Don’t stupidly assume that asceticism is intrinsically Marxist. It takes a revisionist fool to say that.

maverick muse on August 14, 2009 at 1:10 PM

Yes, clearly Jesus would have wanted government run health insurance. In fact, I am surprised JC didn’t talk about that in his sermon on the mount. He could have alerted us to the evils of private insurance right then and there considering he is ommipotent and could have warned us about it ahead of time. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if that was what he and Pilate talked mostly about. These libs are creepy when they try to invoke Jesus.

matt126 on August 14, 2009 at 1:10 PM

Leftists reveal such ignorance regarding transparency.

maverick muse on August 14, 2009 at 1:13 PM

MY 2 CENTS:

Although I am not a religious person I’ve read religious books and, for what I can understand,Jesus was not a socialist. A socialist would want a “big-brother” (the government) to be in charge of redistributing wealth, so everybody is equal. Jesus was for charity (free-will giving from those who have to those who need, and against tax collectors (compulsive giving to an entity (government) who will administer the wealth.

WHY ON EARTH DO YOU THINK THAT ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT SOCIALIST GOVENMENTS DO IS TO TRY TO BAN O MINIMIZE THE INFLUENCE OF RELIGION, ESPECIALLY CHRISTIAN RELIGION?

Ropera on August 14, 2009 at 1:14 PM

I guess that today we have larger eyes in needles and smaller camels. (Matt 19:24 in that oft cited salvation narrative.)

Annar on August 14, 2009 at 1:06 PM

Evidently Annar is now an expert on theology.

He has 10 years experience in the theology of bitterness and reactionism. Not to mention his memorizations of every out of context soundbyte he has read on the anti-Christ humanist propaganda websites.

MaximusConfessor on August 14, 2009 at 1:14 PM

Right2bright and levistruss: I don’t know what Jesus said about homosexuality, but God through Moses said you were not supposed to covet your neighbor’s ass. (Ten Commandments)

Old Country Boy on August 14, 2009 at 1:15 PM

right2bright on August 14, 2009 at 11:13 AM

No, Jesus didn’t say “don’t do it”. He didn’t say anything on the matter.

LevStrauss on August 14, 2009 at 11:19 AM

Will you admit that you are wrong, if you are proven to be wrong?
If not, don’t respond, it just means that you won’t accept facts…

right2bright on August 14, 2009 at 1:17 PM

Old Country Boy on August 14, 2009 at 1:15 PM

LOL

maverick muse on August 14, 2009 at 1:19 PM

I’m pretty sure Jesus would want MSNBC to STFU.

*channels Lenny Bruce*

bluelightbrigade on August 14, 2009 at 1:20 PM

Old Country Boy on August 14, 2009 at 1:15 PM

I was just showing that the empty suit poster isn’t interested in the Truth, just what he wants to state.
He has already shown he is afraid of actually admitting he is wrong when shown he was wrong.
Like I stated, a real man can admit when they are wrong…this guy can’t even state he would admit if he were wrong…just a child.

right2bright on August 14, 2009 at 1:21 PM

I guess that today we have larger eyes in needles and smaller camels. (Matt 19:24 in that oft cited salvation narrative.)

Annar on August 14, 2009 at 1:06 PM

Actually you and Enrique both lose, on theology as well as economic theory.
BTW, Marx didn’t chastise the wealthy – his hatred was reserved for the middle class (bourgeoisie)

Vashta.Nerada on August 14, 2009 at 1:23 PM

The problem with admitting you are wrong is that if you are wrong about that you you will never get anyone to believe you are right. The best choice is to just drive on.

Old Country Boy on August 14, 2009 at 1:27 PM

We don’t know what Jesus thought about abortion, he didn’t mention it. . . I’m sure Jesus witnessed the practice, but, apparently chose not to comment on it.
CrankyIndependent on August 14, 2009 at 7:17 AM

Hmmmm, whistling past the grave yard ‘crank?
Recall: – ~~~”Thou shalt not kill/murder”~~~.
Seems clear enough to “those with eyes to see and ears to hear”.

Moreover I suspect that not all of what the son of G-d witnessed, or spoke of, during his earthly ministry was copied down in the Apostolic Gospels. Although, the writings of the Apostolic and other early Church Fathers of the Catholic church have been quite clear about abortion:

From the Letter to Diognetus
(speaking of what distinguishes Christians from pagans):

“They marry, as do all others; they beget children but they do not destroy their offspring” (literally ‘cast away fetuses’).


From the Didache
“You shall not slay the child by abortions”.


From the Letter of Barnabus
“You shall not destroy your conceptions before they are brought forth; nor kill them after they are born”.


From St. Clement
“Those who use abortificants commit homicide”.


From Tertullian
“The mold in the womb may not be destroyed”.


From St. Basil the Great
“The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. The hair-splitting difference between formed and unformed makes no difference to us”.


From St. Augustine
“Sometimes their sadistic licentiousness goes so far that they procure poison to produce infertility, and when this is of no avail, they find one means or another to destroy the unborn and flush it from the mother’s womb. For they desire to see their offspring perish before it is alive or, if it has already been granted life, they seek to kill it within the mother’s body before it is born”.


From St. John Chrysostom
“Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit? Where there are medicines of sterility? Where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well. Indeed, it is something worse than murder and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you condemn the gifts of God, and fight with His laws? What is a curse you seek as though it were a blessing. Do you make the anteroom of slaughter? Do you teach the women who are given to you for a procreation of offspring to perpetuate killing?”

Obama, and most of his thugs, including Pelosi and Biden, are accessories to murder. The codification and financing of their muderous intent is evident in their healthcare plan.

“Let’s Roll”

On Watch on August 14, 2009 at 1:29 PM

Exit question: Aren’t the lefties right?

Of course this is always your answer on biblical topics and of course you aren’t going to read what I’m typing anyway.

However, this refrain is as tired as any talking point about Christians and belies a lack of knowledge about what Christianity is on a fundamental level and what universal health care is on a fundamental level.

AP, are you suggesting that universal health care will in any way bring about the equality the Lefties believe it will? Are you at all suggesting that this will improve the overall quality of life for all people who live here?

If so, why are you against it? If not, what makes you think Jesus would support it?

Cause really, it’s that simple. Christians who are against this have thought it out very thoroughly and have decided that it’s not even going to accomplish what the Lefties think it will (we’ve decided this on just about everything the Lefties think is so brilliant). We think, furthermore, that it will only hurt the vast majority and only seek to line the pockets of a small segment of the population but will do far more damage than good.

THAT’S why I oppose it, not because I don’t want the poor to receive free health care.

I genuinely believe Capitalism and the free market are the best cures for the problems in our economy and that those are the best ways to help ALL Americans, something I think Left and Right Christians would agree the goal Jesus would have in mind. If I thought Socialism were the best way to obtain that, I might be for it (assuming that it’s worth what you give up in individual freedom), but nothing but a very shallow and superficial understanding of the political philosophy can lead me to believe it will.

Esthier on August 14, 2009 at 1:29 PM

Esthier on August 14, 2009 at 1:29 PM

Well said. Liberal social policies (like Obamacare) suffer from two basic flaws- 1. They are contrary to the principles of our capitalistic society and 2. They don’t work.

If it passes, we’ll just end up with a more expensive system that offers an inferior level of care, and penalizes innovation and efficiency.

cs89 on August 14, 2009 at 1:36 PM

Actually Jesus would want you infanticidal scumbags to stop killing unborn children.

TrickyDick on August 14, 2009 at 1:40 PM

Actually Jesus would want you infanticidal scumbags to stop killing unborn children.

TrickyDick on August 14, 2009 at 1:40 PM

There it is!
+1000

bluelightbrigade on August 14, 2009 at 1:43 PM

On Watch on August 14, 2009 at 1:29 PM

+1001

bluelightbrigade on August 14, 2009 at 1:44 PM

Ed Schultz is shameful and is suggesting sinful things. He is a socialist thug, just like the president.

proconstitution on August 14, 2009 at 1:47 PM

And so has Michael Vick.

LevStrauss on August 14, 2009 at 11:09 AM

The point of this statement is unclear to me. Please elucidate.

[Personally, I don't like what Vick did, and he's certainly no role model there, just as Paul wasn't when he was supervising the torturing and burning of Christians. That said, I await the form of Vick's penance for his acts. Paul's penance has already been documented, but Vick's hasn't.]

unclesmrgol on August 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM

Jesus Christ loves the individual.

He did not sprinkle “healing dust” upon the masses. He spoke to people, engaged with them, loved them one-on-one. He ate with them and wept with them.

Jesus was concerned with the eternal soul of His children, much more so than their eartly existence. He healed from compassion, but also to show the world who He was. That was His highest goal; not that we “feel” better, but that we embrace Truth. He was more concerned that what could rot the soul forever than what could hurt the body for a time.

God loves a cheerful giver and a person who gives freely and richly. It is my joy to give as my heart and conscience leads. It is not my joy to give out of heavy taxation. My taxation is almost to the point of charitable giving, because after taxes there’s barely enough left to give otherwise. This is joyless. Taxation is not being the hands and feet of Jesus. Taxation is faceless, nameless, strong-armed, compulsory “giving”.

Would Jesus favor universal health care? I think Jesus would concern Himself with gathering souls for eternity rather than engage in political arguments. That was true in the tumultuous times in which He took the form of man, and I believe it would be true today.

Great post, AP.

Grace_is_sufficient on August 14, 2009 at 1:55 PM

Maybe, but would he trust the guy who is pushing it when he also thinks it’s fine to allow babies to die of exposure in soiled linen closets?

Probably not.

Dr. Mengele had a health care “reform” plan too, how’d that work out?

NoDonkey on August 14, 2009 at 2:01 PM

No, the lefties are not right.

Christian teaching is that we should care for the poor, but not by government fiat. Compassion has to be voluntary.

Gaunilon on August 14, 2009 at 2:14 PM

So ol’ Ed thinks government should take over and play the role of God. Why? Does Ed think God is too busy in the “life and death” Dept. and thinks government should relieve God of this duty when people get too old to be a burden on healthcare. Just kill seniors off by denying them treatment, drugs or care they need? Funny how the left wing never wanted to hear from Christians leaders when Bush was in office, but now they want them to speak. I don’t see Obama making any great effort to ask for their counsel as Bush did. I also like Ed’s double standard of being a synical jerk of christians who opposes his view at first, then does a full 180 and glorifies and praises the ones who support his position. WWJD? Probably tell Ed to remove the “plank” from his eye before complaining about the “splinter” in others.

Planet Boulder on August 14, 2009 at 2:18 PM

I seem to recall “Render unto Caesar what is his… ”

Here is an excellent summation of the fundamental differences between socialism and Christianity.

Differences

Despite the partial congruence, the areas of difference loom large.
Christians cannot concur with the fundamental assertion that fallen
human nature is basically good nor with the belief that it is
virtually perfectible by social engineering. Many Christians believe
that socialists fundamentally misread human nature. In its fallen
state it is not necessarily other-oriented or primarily concerned
about the common good of the community.

Christians also reject any implication that the working class is
morally better than other groups. Many Christians also assert that the
socialist prescription for societal improvement stifles individual
initiative and is therefore doomed to fail.

Christians do not locate the source of evil in economic exploitation
but in human rejection of God. They insist that fallen human nature
causes economic exploitation, not that economic exploitation causes
evil in human nature. Nor do Christians accept as correct the notion
that the proper and central study of human nature should focus on
economics.

While Christians acknowledge the existence of economic classes, they
do not accept the centrality of class structure nor the inevitability
of class conflict. Indeed, Christians and others point out that for
most people the idea of economic class does not take precedence in
self-identification. They note that in the great wars of the 20th
century, as in earlier times, the masses of people placed
identification with their country far above membership in supposed
transnational classes. For example, socialists in France and Great
Britain fought socialists in Germany.

Additionally, Christians reject the marginalization of the individual
and individual responsibility, the widespread policy discrimination in
favour of the working class, the great faith in big government and the
strong emphasis on central planning and government regulation.
Justification of virtually all strikes constitutes another problem.

Perhaps the greatest difference between typical socialist assertions,
at least in our time, and Christian teaching is the widespread
socialist rejection of the concept of soul, of the supernatural realm
and of the need for human salvation rooted in God. Socialists seem to
assume that all reality is material.

In short, while we can identify some important areas of ethical
commonality, Christianity and socialism explain evil differently,
postulate different solutions to human depravity and, in the main,
have different priorities and ideals.

John Redekop teaches political science at Trinity Western University
and is an Abbotsford city councillor.

alliebobbitt on August 14, 2009 at 2:23 PM

Btw, this latest White House propaganda comes close to establishing a national religion. The halos and televangelist pictures from the campaign trail make the case that Obama is a fascist. The argument is for socialism, but it is fascism.

alliebobbitt on August 14, 2009 at 2:29 PM

MSNBC doesn’t seem to be able to tell the difference between Universal care and a Universally bad bill that is 5 parts healthcare and 95 percent radical powergrab.

Or maybe they do. After all, this IS the network of Keith Olberman and Janine Garafalo openly fantasizing about putting non-Liberals into gulags for medical experimentation on their ‘Limbic brains’……..

Scubafreak on August 14, 2009 at 2:34 PM

wouldnt Jesus just heal everyone for free?

Osis on August 14, 2009 at 2:37 PM

His disappointment in most of us must be overwhelming.

beekiller on August 14, 2009 at 2:52 PM

I don’t remember reading of Jesus telling us to love being forced to render our money unto Caesar so he can carry out Jesus’ teachings.

RJL on August 14, 2009 at 2:53 PM

Would Jesus want everyone to have free food?
How about free car insurance?
Maybe free clothing.
I am entitled to a new car!
I demand a free house!

Gimme, gimme, gimme!!!!

Stupid liberals.

SalHansen on August 14, 2009 at 3:16 PM

If Jesus were here, he would cure Jeanine Garofalo’s chancre sores.

TexasJew on August 14, 2009 at 3:30 PM

If Jesus were here, he would cure Jeanine Garofalo’s chancre sores.

TexasJew on August 14, 2009 at 3:30 PM

I thought it was leprosy

Jeff from WI on August 14, 2009 at 3:32 PM

1st Hezekiah, v34. Do not attribute acts or reasons to God that are not his. That is the only mortal sin.

Hey! AllahPundit! AP akbar. Only AP can get all the Pharisees on Hot Air into one post thrashing each other about who is the purest of them all. This needs to be done every once in a while to determine who is the most insane. AP, can you have one of those insertable polls to determine who is the greatest Pharisee of the bunch?

Old Country Boy on August 14, 2009 at 3:37 PM

I have a question (I tried to send it to Keith Hennessey, the master number cruncher, but was unsuccessful)

I have always wondered about the figures that many quote regarding how much we spend on health care in this country vs. other countries with higher life expectancy. Is there a way to determine if those numbers include or exclude elective surgeries, infertility treatments, etc., that are often fairly expensive. If such figures are included, does our country have a higher percentage of such surgeries? The question is: Do we really spend so much more on essential health care than other countries do?

MississippiMom on August 14, 2009 at 3:38 PM

Do we really spend so much more on essential health care than other countries do?

MississippiMom on August 14, 2009 at 3:38 PM

Good question and I would add to that:

How much do the UK and Canada spend on malpractice insurance, defensive medicine and medical tort awards?

Because it’s a tiny fraction of what we spend here.

A fact conveniently left unmentioned by the Obama brainrust.

NoDonkey on August 14, 2009 at 3:43 PM

I don’t see how anybody could affirm Christ as the Son of God and yet doubt the humanity of the unborn. Christ was Himself alive in the womb.

Chris_Balsz on August 14, 2009 at 3:50 PM

Yes Paul, the guy who slaughtered and tortured a bunch of Christians, put forth the Christian position on the matter.

LevStrauss on August 14, 2009 at 10:59 AM

Paul didn’t do any of that. Have you even read a Bible?

TMK on August 14, 2009 at 11:11 AM

Acts 8:3 says, “But Saul [Also known as Paul the Apostle] began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.”

Galatians 1:13 says, “You have heard, no doubt, of my earlier life in Judaism. I was violently persecuting the church of God and was trying to destroy it.”

ynot4tony2 on August 14, 2009 at 3:52 PM

As it is, opinion among Christians here will be unanimous that he doesn’t or that he’d have no opinion (“render unto Caesar,” etc.) Exit question: Aren’t the lefties right? – Allahpundit

No.

And if you had a minimum kindergarten understanding of biblical theology, and Christian moral ontology, you would not need to ask such a question.

This is not your thing Allah, from one who knows, stick with what you do best, sending love notes to Meghan McCain, and posting polling numbers damaging to Sarah Palin.

Joe Pyne on August 14, 2009 at 3:53 PM

MSNBC host: Hey, wouldn’t Jesus want us to have universal health care?

Yeah, sure, and He would have wanted His replacement to be Barack Obama. Excuse me while I puke at the idea of Jesus endorsing a plan drawn up by Chicago gangsters, union goons, Mengele-driven social engineers and George Soros whose sole aim is to destroy the middle class and to create a “worker’s paradise”, totally in control by all the aforementioned.

MaiDee on August 14, 2009 at 3:54 PM

Jesus wants us to help those around us, but he wants us to do it _voluntarily_, not by government force or mandate.

God could make us all acknowledge and worship and love Him right now. He can do anything. However, he has chosen to give us Free Will. We have the ability to worship Him or to ignore Him. It is up to us. Free Will is one of God’s biggest tenets and methods of operation. He has always allowed it.

Jesus (who is one and the same with The Father) would want us to help others with their Health Care bills if they could not help themselves, but he would want us to do it voluntarily through private organizations or through direct giving rather than in a compulsory fashion through the Federal Government.

Theophile on August 14, 2009 at 4:18 PM

Paul didn’t do any of that. Have you even read a Bible?

TMK on August 14, 2009 at 11:11 AM

You forgot to note that you were being sarcastic. Geez. Next time, before you accuse someone else of not reading their Bible, I suggest you OPEN yours. What do you think Paul did? Ever heard of the CONVERSION OF SAUL? He was a well known torturer of Christians. He was present when Stephen – an early Christian martyr – was stoned and gave approval to his MURDER.
Acts 7:60 “Then he (Stephen) fell on his knees and cried out, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ When he had ssaid this, he fell asleep (died). And SAUL was there, giving approval to his DEATH.” (NIV)
Hm…sounds pretty cut and dry to me. BTW – in case you didn’t know, Saul’s name was changed to PAUL by the Lord after his conversion. Yep….have you read your Bible lately?

pilartx on August 14, 2009 at 4:21 PM

God gives us the freed to do for our bodies (eat, drink, clothes) and with our bodies (drug addict, murderer, thieve)as we see fit. Your judgement day will come.

meMC on August 14, 2009 at 4:24 PM

It is our Christian faith that moves us to charity, kindness, and love. Even, tough love.

meMC on August 14, 2009 at 4:28 PM

The way you win an argument, is make the person who is making unsubstantiated claims be held accountable.

LevStrauss on August 14, 2009 at 11:19 AM

Will you admit that you are wrong, if you are proven to be wrong?
If not, don’t respond, it just means that you won’t accept facts…

right2bright on August 14, 2009 at 1:17 PM

This is a perfect example of someone who wants only to argue, but not be held accountable for what he posts…

right2bright on August 14, 2009 at 4:32 PM

Modern medicine didn’t really exist in Jesus’ time. The closest things they had to government health care were leper colonies. Was he for socialized medicine? Maybe not, but it doesn’t make any more sense to say he was against it.

RightOFLeft on August 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM

Allah, you are clearly unfamiliar with the parable of the Good Samaritan. He didn’t apply for a government grant, he did not ask for donations, he most certainly did not go out and extort taxes. The Good Samaritan spent his own money to help the man.

Jesus doesn’t call on his followers to force other people to help people, he calls upon them to help people.

You want to engage in an act of charity, you don’t get the government involved, you do it yourself.

Lefty “Christians” are just bullies and thugs, smarmy hypocrits pretending to care about others, when what they really care about is getting to force others to do their will.

Greg Q on August 14, 2009 at 3:02 AM

Thank you Greg Q.

POST OF THE YEAR!

Charity starts with YOU!!!!

Sapwolf on August 14, 2009 at 4:57 PM

Jesus told a parable about health care. It was called the good Samaritan.
“A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead with no clothes. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, and he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, he too passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and looked after him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ “Which of these three do you think was a neighbour to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

“Go and do likewise.”
The Good Samaritan took it upon himself to care for this man’s needs.
The Good Samaritan did not go and demand that the Inn Keeper house the man for free. He did not lecture the Inn Keeper about his rates. He paid for all the Inn Keepers expenses. The Inn Keeper profited by housing this man and he was not criticized for it by the Good Samaritan. Nor did he demand rich people be taxed to pay for this man’s health care needs! Nor did he try to limit or ration this man’s health care needs in any way. The Good Samaritan said he would pay for any extra expenses!
This parable speaks for itself. And Jesus finished by saying, “Go and do likewise.”

JellyToast on August 14, 2009 at 5:05 PM

I’m almost convinced that anyone that appears on American TV knows anything about Christianity.

foucaultsvac on August 14, 2009 at 5:25 PM

And He so loved MSNBC that He gave them ratings.

TexasJew on August 14, 2009 at 5:35 PM

to paraphrase christ: this life is but temporary. the afterlife is the forever prize for a life of living the godly life here on earth. read into it what you will.

if we ask ourselves “what would jesus do?” we are asking ourselves “what would god do?” god being the catch-all word for the triune god of the father, son, and holy ghost. if we claim to know what the triune god knows, than we are elevating ourselves to the level of god, and therefore, we are breaking scripture.

these questions of “what would jesus do?” merely seek to side-track a debate.

photoboy74 on August 14, 2009 at 5:38 PM

I’m quite sure Obamacare, which denies care to the elderly,chronically sick, and aborts live humans, is exactly the opposite of WWJD. Anybody want to start another antichrist thread?

UNREPENTANT CONSERVATIVE CAPITOLIST on August 14, 2009 at 5:42 PM

There’s not enough “volunteering” to take care of 47 million uninsured people. What about the Good Samaritan?

Allahpundit on August 13, 2009 at 10:12 PM

The Good Samaritan payed for the injured man’s care with his money, not his neighbor’s. Thou shalt not steal still applies.

jimmy2shoes on August 14, 2009 at 5:55 PM

The main purpose of Jesus was to have a Salvation plan that would bridge the gap between God and all sinners of the world. Since Jesus is divine He was the only one who could take our place and die for our sins. He arose and now everyone has a chance for salvation. His plan was to save souls and not to let people slip into an eternal hell. Jesus loves us so much that He did all that for us.

garydt on August 14, 2009 at 6:03 PM

There’s not enough “volunteering” to take care of 47 million uninsured people. What about the Good Samaritan?

Allahpundit on August 13, 2009 at 10:12 PM

Pardon me while I pile on.

1: I’m sure you know the 47 million number is utter BS, why are you peddling it?

2: Real Christians don’t believe you can make Heaven on Earth. That’s the domain of Marxists, and other Leftists.

3: The job of a Christian is not to make the world perfect (that is what God does in Heaven), but to make the world better. So the 47 million number is irrelevant.

When Judas rebuked Mary Magdalene for “wasting” fine oil on Jesus’ feet, saying that it could have been sold, and the money spent on the poor, Jesus rebuked Judas in return, saying “the poor you will always have with you.”

It matter not whether or not you take care of everyone. What matters to a real Chirstian is that they do their personal best to take care of their “neighbors.”

You want to help other people, show Christian charity? Great. Volunteer at a soup kitchen. Give money to charities that help people (not to “charities” that engage in political activities).

Want to be a thug? Advocate for the government to get involved.

Greg Q on August 14, 2009 at 6:08 PM

Ya know, if you were aborted you wouldnt be asking that.

johnnyU on August 14, 2009 at 6:15 PM

What MS-NAZI doesn’t bother to mention is that National Healthcare is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Do you actually think Jesus Christ would support murdering unborn children. or euthanizing the old, physically or mentally challenged, infirm? Do you think he would want religion to be prohibited from schools? Let’s see, Jesus opposed toatalitarianism and oppression and supported free will.
Leftists DARE ask what Jesus would want?

nelsonknows on August 14, 2009 at 6:17 PM

Jesus was transparently a socialist. He said rich people couldn’t get into heaven. Obviously he’d favor a single payer healthcare system.

Enrique on August 14, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Nice lie, Jesus said the rich would not go to heaven JUST because they were rich.

nelsonknows on August 14, 2009 at 6:21 PM

Simply put, Jesus would want The Church to give freely of itself, not forcefully steal and give. He doesn’t want it unless it’s given in love.

CynicalOptimist on August 14, 2009 at 6:28 PM

More moral subterfuge from another incompetent Obama worshiper.

Cybergeezer on August 14, 2009 at 6:38 PM

I love it when lefties use Jesus as a prop.

We are commanded to care for others, but as an act of love – it is a worthless gesture, spiritually speaking, if we are compelled to do it by the state.

The lefties are wrong, Allah.

capitalist piglet on August 14, 2009 at 7:00 PM

Would Jesus work for the IRS ?

CWforFreedom on August 14, 2009 at 7:17 PM

This twit has obviously not read the Bible.

OldEnglish on August 14, 2009 at 8:20 PM

Allah ask Aren’t the lefties right?

About what? Would Jesus support death panels and federally funded abortions? I doubt it.

I think Jesus was about the salvation of our souls, that was his concern.

Jesus did tell us to do unto others as we would have them to unto us. Love thy neighbor.

But Jesus also says that God helps those who help themselves.

I think that Jesus would want us to help one another, but I honestly do not think that passing Pelosi’s health care bill is really going to do that.

Terrye on August 14, 2009 at 8:43 PM

But Jesus also says that God helps those who help themselves.

Terrye on August 14, 2009

I used to think that was in the Bible, too. Until I actually started reading the Bible for myself.
It’s not in there.

JellyToast on August 14, 2009 at 9:06 PM

Christians
Pigs like Shultz think they can say the magic word and have you wallow in self doubt.
Just shows how bigoted he is. oink oink

RobCon on August 14, 2009 at 9:38 PM

Let’s be honest.

There ARE many,many great charitable programs run by the government.Charity cannot be only private.

Do some of you really think that Christ God would want us to get rid of HUD and all of the many entitlement programs and charitable programs that help so many people who truly need it?

MaximusConfessor on August 14, 2009 at 10:30 PM

Ephesians 4:17-19

This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

fronclynne on August 14, 2009 at 10:37 PM

MaximusConfessor on August 14, 2009 at 10:30 PM

Let’s be honest.

II Timothy 3:13

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

fronclynne on August 14, 2009 at 10:41 PM

Do some of you really think that Christ God would want us to get rid of HUD and all of the many entitlement programs and charitable programs that help so many people who truly need it?

MaximusConfessor on August 14, 2009 at 10:30 PM

I’m really hard pressed to understand the connection between “Jesus wants Obamacare passed” and your statement.

As has been stated here many, many, MANY times:

- God is all about choice and free will. Charity has to come from the heart, NOT mandated by a bureaucracy.

- God is all about PERSONAL relationships (which, again, is much different than a mandated bloated bureaucracy).

And please do not conflate opposition to this specific bill and opposition to help for the needy.

It’s just that Christ wouldn’t want this forced on people and mandated by a bureaucracy.

Religious_Zealot on August 14, 2009 at 11:04 PM

I’m of the opinion that Jesus would want us to have faith, not health care.

omb on August 14, 2009 at 11:06 PM

MaximusConfessor on August 14, 2009 at 10:30 PM

Do some of you really think that Christ God would want us to get rid of HUD and all of the many entitlement programs and charitable programs that help so many people who truly need it?

Would Christ take my money under threat of imprisonment, keep a cut for himself, give some to people who are more wealthy than me, dole the rest of it out to those in need, take all the glory for helping the needy, and put down me for not being charitable enough?

Let me consult the Magic 8-Ball…

All signs point to no.

ynot4tony2 on August 14, 2009 at 11:19 PM

what this debate brings to my mind is the difference between conservatives, and progressive\liberals.

When a conservative decides to give money to the needy he reaches into his own pocket.

When a progressive\liberal decides to give money to the needy he reaches into our pockets.

darktood on August 14, 2009 at 11:56 PM

When a conservative decides to give money to the needy he reaches into his own pocket.

When a progressive\liberal decides to give money to the needy he reaches into our pockets.

darktood on August 14, 2009 at 11:56 PM

Come back to reality buddy..

This extreme form of conservatism is unrealistic and wicked.

If we did not have the charitable programs that the government currently provides, then the poor in this country would be far worse off than they are now.

MaximusConfessor on August 15, 2009 at 12:08 AM

1st thought…”Thou shall not covet”……pretty much covers the Libs thoughts on wealth redistribution

sbark on August 15, 2009 at 12:21 AM

MaximusConfessor on August 15, 2009 at 12:08 AM

And how is your response related to Darktood’s comment.The reality there buddy is Cons are more giving. Research it there tightwad.

CWforFreedom on August 15, 2009 at 12:23 AM

Maximus while were are at it…fark off . You are a jerk

CWforFreedom on August 15, 2009 at 12:23 AM

Charity has to come from the heart, NOT mandated by a bureaucracy.

Charity is still charity in the effective sense regardless.

It’s still helping people and that’s what counts.

Yes true charity by it’s actual definition is a form of asceticism.
The real problem is American culture has become increasingly dumbed down.

“Asceti-What”?

Good luck getting all these brainwashed and braindead secular masses to contribute money to help poor,elderly and disabled people. “Survival of the fittest” has become too ingrained into these peoples rotting secular minds.
Besides they’re too busy watching american idol and playing video games to even know what’s going on or to even care if they did.

Face it. Your “private charity only” model is totally unrealistic.

MaximusConfessor on August 15, 2009 at 12:50 AM

MaximusConfessor on August 15, 2009 at 12:50 AM

MAXIMUSSTRAWMAN!

daesleeper on August 15, 2009 at 1:33 AM

If we did not have the charitable programs that the government currently provides, then the poor in this country would be far worse off than they are now.

MaximusConfessor on August 15, 2009 at 12:08 AM

It is the design of the poverty programs in this country that so many are poor and stay there. By design. It is the intent.

daesleeper on August 15, 2009 at 1:34 AM

Do some of you really think that Christ God would want us to get rid of HUD and all of the many entitlement programs and charitable programs that help so many people who truly need it?

MaximusConfessor on August 14, 2009 at 10:30 PM

Those people need Christ, not gov’t cheese and a roof provided by means that were taken by force.

daesleeper on August 15, 2009 at 1:40 AM

MaximusConfessor on August 15, 2009 at 12:50 AM

in the effective sense regardless.

that’s what counts.

The real problem

Good luck

brainwashed

braindead

they’re too busy watching american idol and playing video games to even know what’s going on or to even care if they did.

Face it.

totally unrealistic.

I certainly hope you don’t hurt yourself trying to get down from that there horse. It looks pretty high.

But since you’re so up on these things, what does God have to say about man’s righteousness?

fronclynne on August 15, 2009 at 2:21 AM

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