Will the pharmaceuticals rebel over Dem welching on ObamaCare?

posted at 4:10 pm on August 7, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Barack Obama declared a big victory in his attempt to nationalize the health-care industry when he got the backing of the pharmaceutical industry, along with their pledge to reduce $80 billion in costs over the first decade of the plan.  Now, however, the question of what the industry received in return has arisen now that the House version includes price negotiation on Medicare-funded prescription medications.  The New York Times reported yesterday that the industry’s lobbyists have begun to cry foul as the administration apparently reneged on an agreement the White House wanted kept quiet:

Drug industry lobbyists reacted with alarm this week to a House health care overhaul measure that would allow the government to negotiate drug prices and demand additional rebates from drug manufacturers.

In response, the industry successfully demanded that the White House explicitly acknowledge for the first time that it had committed to protect drug makers from bearing further costs in the overhaul. The Obama administration had never spelled out the details of the agreement.

“We were assured: ‘We need somebody to come in first. If you come in first, you will have a rock-solid deal,’ ” Billy Tauzin, the former Republican House member from Louisiana who now leads the pharmaceutical trade group, said Wednesday. “Who is ever going to go into a deal with the White House again if they don’t keep their word? You are just going to duke it out instead.”

A deputy White House chief of staff, Jim Messina, confirmed Mr. Tauzin’s account of the deal in an e-mail message on Wednesday night.

The Times gives an understated analysis, saying that the exposure of this agreement “could prove embarrassing” to Obama and his administration.  Given the number of times his allies in Congress have gone out of their way to demonize the pharmaceutical industry, “embarrassment” is a safe bet — and the least of their worries.  The agreement will likely touch off anger among the liberal wing of the Democratic Party in the House, already agitating over the attempts by Henry Waxman to appease the Blue Dogs before the recess.

Another embarrassing part of this story is the dishonesty at the White House over the agreement.  As Tommy Christopher reports for Mediaite, Robert Gibbs has disavowed any knowledge of such an agreement with Tauzin and the pharmaceuticals.  Tommy asked Gibbs about it directly at a June press briefing:

Q Thank you, Robert. I have two quick ones on health care. The first one, in the speeches about the $80 billion deal with the pharmaceutical companies, I haven’t heard anything a bout negotiating price — Medicare negotiating price with the pharmaceutical industry. I wanted to know if that was one of the tradeoffs for getting this $80 billion was that we’re not going to pursue that now.

MR. GIBBS: Well, look, again, the structure of part of that agreement was to use a portion of that $80 billion to pay up to — for the pharmaceutical industry to pay up to 50 percent of the cost for a name brand drug for a senior that falls between the point at which Medicare Part D stops providing help, and when catastrophic coverage — I think it is $6,500, a little bit more than $6,500 — level kicks in. So filling in that — what’s commonly known as — ironically, in health care — the doughnut hole, about — that up to 50 percent of the name brand — the price for that name brand drug would be paid for, and I think that provides a hefty discount that will bear appreciable benefits for seniors all over the country.

Q Has there been an agreement not to pursue a Medicare –

MR. GIBBS: I don’t know the answer.

Q I’m talking about S. 330.

MR. GIBBS: What was that?

Q Senate bill 330?

MR. GIBBS: You’re 330 bills ahead of me on that. (Laughter.) I will check on it.

Tommy says that only two options can be true. Either Gibbs knew about the agreement and lied to reporters, or the White House lied to Gibbs about it. Either way, Gibbs should resign.

But hey — who actually needs to read the bills, right?

Update: The briefing was from June, not yesterday; I misread Tommy’s post, but the point still stands.

Update II: Jake Tapper tries following up on it, but Gibbs denies knowing anything about a deal to hold off on Medicare pricing.

Blowback

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Hugo Chavez must be green with envy.

daesleeper on August 7, 2009 at 4:13 PM

the industry’s lobbyists have begun to cry foul as the administration apparently reneged on an agreement the White House wanted kept quiet

Bwahahahahahaaha. SUCKAHS!

SouthernGent on August 7, 2009 at 4:13 PM

the industry’s lobbyists have begun to cry foul as the administration apparently reneged on an agreement the White House wanted kept quiet:

silly rabbit, that is their MO

cmsinaz on August 7, 2009 at 4:13 PM

Anyone who trusts the Obama-Mugabe regime regarding ANYTHING is a complete idiot.

This “administration” is incapable of fathoming the truth, much less telling it.

This is an illegitimate regime that is unworthy of governing the American people.

The only thing that can fix the Obama “administration” are mass resignations followed by forced deportation. Get these people the hell out of my country.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2009 at 4:13 PM

reading bills is SOOOOO twentieth century er uh ah uh uh we don’t even have a bill yet….

sven10077 on August 7, 2009 at 4:14 PM

Wanted kept quiet? Is that legal? Effin’ liars!

Blake on August 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Gibbs is a disgrace

JaqobJackson on August 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Did those who want to take over and “remake” this country “misunderestimate us”? It’s beginning to look like it…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkmxG5Ta3N0&feature=player_embedded

Liberty is such a precious thing. We American sometimes do take it for granted. But what many have not grasped is that we DO NOT in reality take our liberty for granted.

God bless the REAL America that is waking up and taking our country back!

UnderstandingisPower on August 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Could Obama have possibly picked anyone less annoying and unlikeable than Gibbs for his press secretary?

Riposte on August 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM

God bless the REAL America that is waking up and taking our country back!

UnderstandingisPower on August 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM

May the sleeping giant never go narcoleptic again!

Disturb the Universe on August 7, 2009 at 4:17 PM

Big Pharm… this is what happens when you lay down with dogs… you wake up with fleas.

mankai on August 7, 2009 at 4:18 PM

there’s that dang donut hole thing again!!!!! It ticks me off to no end. Dangle that carrot in front of the seniors, but don’t tell them what they have to give up for it. SENIORS, ASK YOUR CONGRESSMAN IF YOU ARE THE INEFFECIENCIES IN THE SYSTEM. I BET THEY TELL YOU NO.

bloggless on August 7, 2009 at 4:18 PM

Gibbs is a disgrace

JaqobJackson on August 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Gibbs is an incompetent moron.

Norwegian on August 7, 2009 at 4:19 PM

Delicious.

Scumbag in chief only needs to get caught with his hand in the till, meaning that pharmaceutical companies agreeing to pay billions to special interest groups on behalf of the liberals in exchange for a free pass on the new plan, but a slight hit in medicare.

But of course, not insisting that free market be allowed to equalize itself and using the FDA to insure that it doesn’t won’t hurt the drug company CEOs when the collusion comes to light now will it?

Everyone is dirty in this stinking affair.

Spiritk9 on August 7, 2009 at 4:20 PM

None of these fools are driving the cart…Neither Obama nor the Congress. There’s not one of them that even has an inkling of just what in the hell they’re doing…

Jesus Christ!!

BigWyo on August 7, 2009 at 4:21 PM

Captioned the picture

Journalist: How big is the average HealthCare opposer’s brain?
Gibbs: This big.

shick on August 7, 2009 at 4:21 PM

the administration apparently reneged on an agreement the White House wanted kept quiet

Sounds like this will be the resounding theme if Obamacare passes.

VibrioCocci on August 7, 2009 at 4:23 PM

“I am altering the deal. Pray I don’t alter it any further.”

Terry_Dyne on August 7, 2009 at 4:23 PM

Anybody else getting a queasy feeling about big business in America? I know I am.

Rhinoboy on August 7, 2009 at 4:23 PM

the administration apparently reneged on an agreement the White House wanted kept quiet

Definitely the people I want in charge of healthcare.

lorien1973 on August 7, 2009 at 4:23 PM

Hahaha. Lady calls the radio and complains because the host said “screw obama” when her kids are home on vacation.

First, the old broad sounds too old to have children that could be offended. Second, she claims to be a Republican. Third, she slipped and said, “screw bush.” LOL

Blake on August 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM

I would just love to see the Pharmaceutical industry start putting out ads to disown and discredit their own initial ad campaign in support of ObamaCare.

chromium on August 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM

Good to know. I was wondering what was in it for them.

misslizzi on August 7, 2009 at 4:25 PM

Gibbs does not know about this deal or the snitch list, poor man, they don’t tell him anything.

Terrye on August 7, 2009 at 4:25 PM

I see you’ve already moved on from Hispanic pejoratives to offending the Welsh.

benny shakar on August 7, 2009 at 4:25 PM

The Obama administration had never spelled out the details of the agreement.

That’s never happened before. Obama, Pelosi, Reid, committee chairmen, nope, never happened before.

How does the old saying go, “A verbal agreement, and a handshake, aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on.”

Skandia Recluse on August 7, 2009 at 4:26 PM

The picture looks like Gibbert’s bragging with regards to a certain part of his anatomy.

CynicalOptimist on August 7, 2009 at 4:26 PM

pharma are the ones paying for the new “harry and Louise” adds.

rob verdi on August 7, 2009 at 4:26 PM

What a sack of lies. The pharmaceutical raises the prices by 200 billion instead of 280 billion and there we have savings. The feds will increase drug consumption in raw tonnage unless they do rationing.
Like they want moms to go on anti depressants after having babies. why?

seven on August 7, 2009 at 4:26 PM

Secret deals that need to be hidden from the public.

Are those words you really want in mind of people as they think about an overall of their healthcare?

lorien1973 on August 7, 2009 at 4:27 PM

UnderstandingisPower on August 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Thanks for the video link, it made me feel better.
Watch it everyone.

spacewife on August 7, 2009 at 4:27 PM

This is the problem with government trying to run things.

They cut secret backdoor deals to get support from certain companies and in return promise to give those companies favored treatment. Instead of the market dictating outcomes, the government selects winners and losers based on who will play ball with them.

This is banana republic stuff.

JohnInCA on August 7, 2009 at 4:27 PM

Thank you for the transcript of the exchange.

I hate Gibbs, and I can’t stand to listen to him.

madmonkphotog on August 7, 2009 at 4:28 PM

There is another aspect to this, the way House Democrats are openly flouting the white house:

Representative Henry A. Waxman, the California Democrat who heads the Energy and Commerce Committee and helped write the House health care bill, vowed to fight the White House, asserting that it was conceding too much to the powerful drug industry lobby, PhRMA.

“PhRMA would like to see if they can get a bargain,” Mr. Waxman said. “I think that PhRMA should contribute more than PhRMA wants to contribute.”

Under pressure from drug industry lobbyists, the White House for the first time Wednesday clarified its commitment to a behind-the-scenes deal negotiated by the Senate Finance Committee in June. It would limit the drug makers’ share of the cost of a health care overhaul to a total of $80 billion over 10 years without imposing other savings sought by House Democrats, like the government’s negotiation of prices for the drugs it buys under Medicare.

rob verdi on August 7, 2009 at 4:28 PM

Look on the bright side. Someone’s actual job is to wheel Helen Thomas out and prop her in the the front row.

Rhinoboy on August 7, 2009 at 4:28 PM

…the exposure of this agreement “could prove embarrassing” to Obama and his administration.

The agreement will likely touch off anger among the liberal wing of the Democratic Party in the House…

Not to mention his base.

Check out this video of Air America’s Mike Papantonio ripping on Obama’s relationship with Big Pharma.

The Ugly American on August 7, 2009 at 4:29 PM

By the way, here is Pelosi in all her glory:

“We know we can squeeze more from the system,” Ms. Pelosi told a Washington Post blogger a few weeks ago. “The minute the drug companies settled for $80 billion, we knew it was $160 billion.” “The president made the agreements he made,” she added. “And maybe we’ll be limited by that. But maybe not!”

rob verdi on August 7, 2009 at 4:29 PM

He may take over the Pharm industry next.

workingforpigs on August 7, 2009 at 4:30 PM

JohnInCA on August 7, 2009 at 4:27 PM

Imagine if the feds get to run things.

Does anyone really think Democrat scum won’t politicize health care?

Diseases and afflictions that affect their lunatic base (V.D., drug addiction and obesity), will get tons of money, while afflictions normal people get, will be ignored.

Populations who vote for Democrats will get mediocre health care. Populations that don’t, will get little or nothing.

Democrats politicize everything. They are incompetent and ccorrupt.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2009 at 4:31 PM

Hard to throw people under the bus when the wheels start coming off of it.

Just sayin’.

Fallen Sparrow on August 7, 2009 at 4:31 PM

Could Obama have possibly picked anyone less annoying and unlikeable than Gibbs for his press secretary?

Riposte on August 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Perhaps he could have picked Michelle Obama?

mjk on August 7, 2009 at 4:33 PM

I hate those Harry and Louise commercials. That woman makes me want to slap politely beg to differ with someone.

bloggless on August 7, 2009 at 4:34 PM

He may take over the Pharm industry next.

Yes, it sounds like he will pick a winner. What about generic companies? Where does this leave them? Out of business?

bloggless on August 7, 2009 at 4:35 PM

Either way, Gibbs should resign.

+1

bluelightbrigade on August 7, 2009 at 4:35 PM

A-HA!!!! J’accuse Billy Tauzin you muttonhead!!!! Why oh why do these people keep trusting TOTUS ‘deals’…he is quite skilled at saying nothing, sliding away, nodding and appearing in complete agreement with everything anyone is saying to him at that moment…

We all know this now, except apparently Billy Tauzin and AmPharma who are even using frakkin Harry and Louise to lobby FOR the reform, ugh ugh ugh

ginaswo on August 7, 2009 at 4:38 PM

Haha!

Straight from the Baghdad Bob playbook.

Way to go Robert “Baghdad Bob” Gibbs!

SilverStar830 on August 7, 2009 at 4:39 PM

HOPE

Key West Reader on August 7, 2009 at 4:39 PM

“… ‘We need somebody to come in first. If you come in first, you will have a rock-solid deal,’” …

Sounds to me like “we’ll screw you if you don’t step up.” The Administration extorted the pharmas into being the first supporters of ObamaCare, no doubt so that they could turn around and sell it as grassroots industry support.

Even then, that solid looking rock is really nothing more than quicksand.

Nice government we got here.

Dusty on August 7, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Tsk, tsk, Billy.

Didn’t you know, “All of Barack Obama’s statements come with expiration dates. All of them.” (J. Geraghty)?

Wethal on August 7, 2009 at 4:41 PM

“We were assured”

I have never done this before…
I have never felt this way before…
You can trust me…
You are the only ones we are negotiating with…
I am giving you the best price…
You won’t get a better deal…
Join us and you will always be favored…
Are the pharms that stupid? I guess so.
But at least they had something in writing…and now if Obama lives up to his promise, it’s bad, and if he doesn’t it’s bad…Hey, Obama, this ain’t Chicago…

right2bright on August 7, 2009 at 4:41 PM

I suspect the big pharm companies will be told not to pursue research and be dummed down so o-bozo can understand and control. They will be making nothing BUT generics. They need to be careful dealing with this administration have they learned nothing from GM.

workingforpigs on August 7, 2009 at 4:41 PM

“… ‘We need somebody to come in first. If you come in first, you will have a rock-solid deal,’”

This is how a prosecutor gets one defendant to turn on co-defendants. First to deal gets the best plea bargain.

Wethal on August 7, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Did those who want to take over and “remake” this country “misunderestimate us”? It’s beginning to look like it…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkmxG5Ta3N0&feature=player_embedded

Liberty is such a precious thing. We American sometimes do take it for granted. But what many have not grasped is that we DO NOT in reality take our liberty for granted.

God bless the REAL America that is waking up and taking our country back!

UnderstandingisPower on August 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM

WOW just Wow. Awesome video.

txmomof6 on August 7, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Didn’t you know, “All of Barack Obama’s statements come with expiration dates. All of them.” (J. Geraghty)?

Wethal on August 7, 2009 at 4:41 PM

When that was said, it was a great political slam…but as time goes on, it becomes more and more apparent that it truly is an accurate statement.

right2bright on August 7, 2009 at 4:42 PM

I would just love to see the Pharmaceutical industry start putting out ads to disown and discredit their own initial ad campaign in support of ObamaCare.

chromium on August 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM

Second Third look at Harry and Louise?

agmartin on August 7, 2009 at 4:43 PM

Someone needs to inform Gibbs that this story here is exactly what Hollywood blockbuster films are made of. Only thing missing is the femme fatale.

sherry on August 7, 2009 at 4:43 PM

Any Company/lobbyist that prostitutes itself with these people will richly deserve being beat up, thrown out onto the street without the fee they thought they were going to get for “performing”.

jjshaka on August 7, 2009 at 4:44 PM

O/T but Sarah wades into the healthcare debate.

Expect more fireworks.

promachus on August 7, 2009 at 4:45 PM

I have a serious question that’s been bugging me. So please, anyone can take a crack at it….

I work in the mortgage industry and I know that the average duration of a loan is around 7 years, less than that if you include refis. Does anyone know the average duration of a health insurance policy? Here’s why I want to know: If the average health policy gets turned over every 5 years or so (because of a company moving to another provider, a person losing a job, etc), and legally the only provider you can then switch to (or start, if you’re young and move into the required gov’t deomogaphic) would be the gov’t option, wouldn’t the insurance companies go broke within like 3 years? Basically you’re tellng the insurance companies, “the business you have is the business you have; you can’t acquire more”. Am I missing something?

Matticus Finch on August 7, 2009 at 4:45 PM

He may take over the Pharm industry next.

He has yet to demonstrate competence in anything above chewing gum, but hey, let’s let Barack try his hand at another huge undertaking.

I mean, he’s our first black President and the media really likes him, what else does he really need?

NoDonkey on August 7, 2009 at 4:45 PM

He may take over the Pharm industry next.

workingforpigs on August 7, 2009 at 4:30 PM

It would be a new GM:

Government Medicine

misslizzi on August 7, 2009 at 4:45 PM

UnderstandingisPower on August 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Thank you for that, God Bless you and yours.

thomasaur on August 7, 2009 at 4:48 PM

misslizzi on August 7, 2009 at 4:45 PM

All we need are hope, change and Placebo, the wonder drug that only costs $500.00 per pill.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2009 at 4:49 PM

understandingispower
txmomof6

that is powerful, just put it on my blog
thank you….

ginaswo on August 7, 2009 at 4:51 PM

Definitely the people I want in charge of healthcare.

lorien1973 on August 7, 2009 at 4:23 PM

Uh, this sort of thing was a one time fluke and it will never happen again. Promise. (statement exempts treatment of AIG, banks, and the auto-industry).

gwelf on August 7, 2009 at 4:54 PM

Hmm… Gibbs responses seem fishy to me. I think I’ll report Tommy Christopher’s post to whitehouse.gov as a case of something fishy about the health reform.

John E. on August 7, 2009 at 4:54 PM

I used to work in the pharm industry and know the expenses involved in research. It takes years and literally hundreds of pounds of documentation to the FDA so an old drug even from the 1930s can be used for an ailment other than the one originally intended.

I wonder, tho current writings have yet to touch the matter, if this ‘health care’ bill will expand over time to government takeover of the pharmaceuticals industry.

Far as I know, raw drug is no longer produced in the US. Most production here involves delivery systems–pill, suspension, patch, et.al. Much research is done about effects and those possible methods of delivery, but the raw drug is produced in Ireland and Scotland.

How long, if Obamacare is enacted, will it be before the ‘evil’ drug companies become chattel to the NUOSSA? (New United Obama Socialist States of America?

Liam on August 7, 2009 at 4:54 PM

I would love to make a deal, that would Guarantee me a profit, with little risk.

Johan Klaus on August 7, 2009 at 4:57 PM

matticus finch- exactly.
which is why Idont get them buckling under
I worked in health ins for 20 yrs, dont have the stats you are looking for but in our ‘modern employment cycle’ people no longer stay at jobs for 27 yrs like say my dad, God Bless..

I always hear chatter on CNBC about the Schumpeterian gales of creative destruction and how our American economy above all others globally is so dynamic precisely because we do have such great job ‘destruction’. Greenspan said that at every Humphrey Hawkins testimony I have watched for 10 years…

So yes I concur with your assessment. they are cooperating with their own annihilation.

and thye are doing it to get a short term pass in the hope a new POTUS will roll things back…foolish as we see with Tauzin and CHrysler bondholders experience…Perella Weinberg should have fought Obama on that deal…

ginaswo on August 7, 2009 at 4:58 PM

screw ‘em. Do a deal with the Marxist devil and that’s what you get. Fools.

enoughalready on August 7, 2009 at 4:59 PM

[jjshaka on August 7, 2009 at 4:44 PM]

They were already being beaten up.

Don’t think for a moment they had a free choice here.

Don’t think for a moment they didn’t get the Rattner hint.

Don’t think for a moment they didn’t remember Obama’s joke addressed to the University of Arizona.

They looked over their shoulder and saw no one but HCAN, ACORN and the MSM.

Dusty on August 7, 2009 at 4:59 PM

UnderstandingisPower on August 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM

THAT WAS AN AMAZING video. Thank you so much for posting it. I sent it to everyone in my email. Talk about strength for the battle? Wow.

Key West Reader on August 7, 2009 at 5:01 PM

What do you call a white house press secretary that’s green all over, splutters and lies when it speaks? Gob Ribbert

Americannodash on August 7, 2009 at 5:01 PM

and thye are doing it to get a short term pass in the hope a new POTUS will roll things back…

The tide will breach the levy within 3 years…that’s why Obama wants this now….for it to be compulsory for young people to join Obamacare immediately, the cost for insuring the young is miniscule compared to the over 40 crowd. Pretty soon with no young business to help defray costs, the insurance company goes belly-up and yells uncle.

Matticus Finch on August 7, 2009 at 5:07 PM

Now, to those who support Obama, and this crap bill.

If he lied about this, doesn’t it stand to reason he lies, and has lied about other things as well? And the way it looks now, he’s lied over, and over, since birth!

capejasmine on August 7, 2009 at 5:08 PM

“Who is ever going to go into a deal with the White House again if they don’t keep their word? You are just going to duke it out instead.”

Another embarrassing part of this story is the dishonesty at the White House over the agreement

Who whould have guessed?

IrishEyes on August 7, 2009 at 5:21 PM

Robert Fibbs strikes again.

Tool.

Fallen Sparrow on August 7, 2009 at 5:22 PM

If he lied about this, doesn’t it stand to reason he lies, and has lied about other things as well? And the way it looks now, he’s lied over, and over, since birth!

capejasmine on August 7, 2009 at 5:08 PM

Obama lies about everything. He lies about things that matter, and he lies about things that don’t. (Remember a few weeks ago when he lied about having first met wife Michelle Robinson in class — except that they never took a class together, weren’t even in the same school at the same time, and actually first met working at a lefty law firm in Chicago?).

Barry lies as a hobby, or for sport, or just to see how much he can get away with. He’s pathological. Nobody in their right mind should trust this fraud.

AZCoyote on August 7, 2009 at 5:29 PM

the industry’s lobbyists have begun to cry foul as the administration apparently reneged on an agreement the White House wanted kept quiet

Snookered. First the insurance companies got wise to ObamaSnare. Next hopefully the pharmas, doctors, and… even the AARP if they feel too much blowback from seniors whose death sentence it is.

petefrt on August 7, 2009 at 5:29 PM

the industry’s lobbyists have begun to cry foul as the administration apparently reneged on an agreement the White House wanted kept quiet

When you make deals with the devil…..

angryed on August 7, 2009 at 5:40 PM

Gibbs is lying through his teeth, watch how he trips up when first answering the question

MyImamToldMeToDoIt on August 7, 2009 at 6:03 PM

Mario Puzo died too soon. He thought “The Godfather” was his best work. Just think what he could do with “The Obama White House”.

GarandFan on August 7, 2009 at 6:04 PM

The Times gives an understated analysis, saying that the exposure of this agreement “could prove embarrassing” to Obama and his administration.

You have to have pride to be embarrassed.

RedNewEnglander on August 7, 2009 at 6:10 PM

I have to say that I for one am glad that the ‘empty suit’ decided to try to do so much all at once. I believe hillary would have been more stealth and patient and would have waited for a better moment…but he is to stupid, inexperienced, and mostly narcissistic that he thought his mere presence would be enough.

Ltlgeneral64 on August 7, 2009 at 6:11 PM

Sales 101-Closing the deal! Obama has failed miserably!

xler8bmw on August 7, 2009 at 6:31 PM

Hard to throw people under the bus when the wheels start coming off of it.

Just sayin’.

Fallen Sparrow on August 7, 2009 at 4:31 PM

:)

With this character there are only two places you can be: under the rug or under the bus.

RD on August 7, 2009 at 10:38 PM

“You f@#ked up – you trusted us! Hey, make the best of it!” – Otter, Delta House

RadClown on August 10, 2009 at 4:11 PM