Quote of the day
posted at 10:00 pm on August 7, 2009 by Allahpundit
“The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their ‘level of productivity in society,’ whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.”
Blowback
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Page 428:
http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
Tom_Shipley on August 8, 2009 at 9:11 AM
First, such consultations are NONE of the government’s damned business. Those are conversations for patient, doctor, family members, and any lawyer engaged to advised a patient/client about estate planning. There’s a reason that most states forbid as witnesses to advanced-directive documents anyone affiliated with a healthcare provider used by the patient–fear of forcing the patient into certain decisions. If the feds want to fund PSAs encouraging people to sign advanced directives, I say “hell, yeah.” But constructing a bureaucracy for a bunch of fat-ass federal employees to administer these big brother conversations, no thanks. Again, none of the government’s damn business.
Second, the Dems have repeatedly said that they’re after a government-run system. Obama, in particular, is quite clear about this. It’s a lie to say otherwise. Further, Dems are notorious for enacting measures that have horrible unintended consequences. Look at what the Great Society has down for blacks. Employers will dump their plans and pay a penalty tax rather than deal with the adminstrative hassle of this bill. I’m not even going to get into dealing with the problems of dealing with the requirements of what will constitute a “compliant” plan (abortions required?). Keeping telling us that Obama’s plan won’t eliminate private insurance–I don’t believe you. Look at what’s happened to the student loan industry (federal option has ultimatley led to federal takeover).
I’m all for the McCain idea (also the Wyden-Bennett idea) of eliminating the income-tax exclusion for healthcare coverage. I say shift the responsibility for coverage down to the individual. Then, you’ll see some real cost competition. Once patients start seeing the real cost of coverage, they’ll start playing their part in the system.
Again, I’m happy to entertain sensible, legislative solutions for the uninsurable, but remaking the system in favor of government (political party) control is absurd.
BuckeyeSam on August 8, 2009 at 9:13 AM
9 pages of comments? I think she might matter more than you think.
tsj017 on August 8, 2009 at 9:15 AM
sherryande on August 8, 2009 at 9:05 AM
Palliative Care happens NOW through Medicare. This article from 2002 states that 23% of patients CHOOSE this option with the consent of their physician. The rest use other treatment options through Medicare.
I have seen nothing in this bill that suggests anything would be different under it.
http://www.urban.org/publications/1000442.html
It’s important to remember, people on Medicare have no other option for health care. They cannot afford private insurance. This bill that the Dems want to pass is largely aimed at the same kind of people.
Tom_Shipley on August 8, 2009 at 9:17 AM
America is truly a boiled frog–the only way we could get to the point of even considering such an unconstitutional power grab by the government is to have gradually allowed it in other areas. Now the pot is near boiling, and our precious Republic is dying before our eyes. Our founders are spinning in their graves over how we have completely thrown out the freedom they risked everything for.
DrMagnolias on August 8, 2009 at 9:17 AM
Reading through that section makes it obvious that what will eventually happen is that the elderly will be pressured to accept other than desirable end of life care.
Physicians will be pressured to convince patients that continuing treatment is not in the best interest of themselves or family. Eventually they’ll be told continuing their lives are not in the best interest of the state and that the resources could be used for younger, more productive people.
This is the government we’re talking about … faceless paper pushers whose goal is to make themselves look good. Paper pushers are always pressured by someone higher than them and on and on until you reach the top. The goal from the top is using resources for the young and producitve, not the sick, disabled or old.
Just read the words of Obama’s health advisers. This is what they believe and will push down to the faceless paper pushers.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 9:21 AM
This bill does NOT call for federal employees to administer these conversations. The conversation would occur between the patient and their physician… and no one else. You keep claiming otherwise, but you are wrong.
Obama has said in the past that he would want a single-payer system, but that’s not even close to what this bill is. It doesn’t even include a public option. it’s very similar to Medicare and Medicaid.
If the time comes where people try and introduce a single payer system, we’ll have that debate (at this point, I wouldn’t say for sure if I were for or against such an option) but given the amount of resistance to this bill, I don’t see a single-payer system anytime soon in this country.
For now, let’s stick to debating what’s actually on the table.
Tom_Shipley on August 8, 2009 at 9:22 AM
May I suggest “The Brooks Brotherhood”? LOL
singer on August 8, 2009 at 9:25 AM
Under Obama’s plan you wouldn’t be able to purchase insurance even if you could. You wouldn’t be able to pay for it even if you could. That’s the whole point … they have total control of your health.
Under this plan private insurance cannot accept new clients after the bill is signed. Eventually private insurance for the general populace will disappear. The only ones to have private insurance will be government officials and employees … and probably unions.
The rest are subject to the whims of Obama’s health advisers.
Bottom line is government run health care is disastrous. It’s been tried here, tried in other countries and the only thing it succeeds in doing is skyrocketing cost and rationing care.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 9:27 AM
It doesn’t matter what the “practitioner” says … a panel of bureaucrats under pressure to control costs have the only authority to approve or disapprove treatments.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 9:29 AM
Um, no. We would have single-payer by default after empoloyers offload their health-care expenses onto the government. That’s the plan.
The physicians would BE de facto federal employees.
ddrintn on August 8, 2009 at 9:35 AM
As illustrated so eloquently by this:
I’d say they still have one thing. Surely, IGNORANCE IS INVINCIBLE!
singer on August 8, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Ignorance is bliss – to the ignorant.
OldEnglish on August 8, 2009 at 9:41 AM
Tom_Shipley, it’s precisely that sort of disingenuousness (or ignorance) that is stirring up so much anger among all those town hall protesters. You know very well that single-payer is the desired and aimed-for end result. People are tired of being lied to.
If this is just another form of Medicaid and Medicare, why not repair those programs first?
ddrintn on August 8, 2009 at 9:44 AM
Well, Sarah lost me on this one. This statement is way, way too out there.
Reminds me of some column on here last week. :)
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 9:46 AM
A panel of bureaucrats, pressured to keep costs down and who work under the principle that the young and productive have priority in health matters over the sick, disabled and elderly is what … a life panel?
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 9:51 AM
Again, Darwin, you are wrong. Under this plan, private insurance companies can’t sign individual users (ie… people buy insurance on their own, not getting it through their employer) to old (or current) plans. Individual users will purchase through a national health exchange which will regulate the cost of coverage through private insurance. Now, people claim this will run private insurance out of business, but I don’t know. How many individuals buy insurance on their own? I would think insurance companies get most of their dough through employer-based insurance. But, honestly, I don’t know all that much on this particular issue.
Regardless, your contention that private insurance companies would not be allowed to take on new clients is flat out wrong. They would be able to take on as many new employer-based clients as they like, as well as as many individual buyers, although with greater regulation to help control cost.
Tom_Shipley on August 8, 2009 at 9:52 AM
Death Panel? This is the first I heard about this. Anyone got a link?
Pelayo on August 7, 2009 at
Sorry to be so late to the party. Been planning for my chance to talk to Dipsh*t Donnelly in So. Bend today.
Pelayo, please read page 425 of the bill, available at rightsoup.com.
It mandates “end of life” counseling and even has a say in how your life will end.
SKYFOX on August 8, 2009 at 9:54 AM
Should have attributed the “IGNORANCE IS INVINCIBLE” quote to Dr. John Silber (of Boston University fame)who said this to a reporter after going back and forth with a number of panelists who couldn’t understand a very simple set of facts. Summed it up quite nicely at the time and I filed it away for future reference (as songwriters are known to do occasionally.)
singer on August 8, 2009 at 9:55 AM
Oh, come on. Think about it a little. If an employer has the choice between an ultra-cheap, taxpayer-funded group plan and a more expensive one offered by a private insurer, which do you think the employer will choose? It’s not all that complicated. Wal-Mart — that Satan to the left — is all in favor of the public option. Do you know why?
Private insurance, which has to make a profit, cannot compete with a government plan that can cover red ink by printing money or raising taxes. Common sense.
ddrintn on August 8, 2009 at 9:56 AM
SKYFOX at August 8, 2009 at 9:54 AM
It’s from Sarah’s Facebook entry from yesterday.
technopeasant on August 8, 2009 at 10:00 AM
What kind of regulation?
ddrintn on August 8, 2009 at 10:01 AM
It’s just a counseling session to help people determine if they want a DNR at the end. It’s also not mandatory. DNR orders are very common now. It’s just covering payment for those services provided by a lot of hospitals as a matter of course.
I don’t particularly respect the overexaggerated rhetoric going on with this issue. It’s plain silly.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 10:04 AM
They can’t take on any new clients unless they belong to the insurance exchange and this bill mandates they belong to the exchange.
Secondly, the bill mandates what they will cover and for how much. In other words they will be forced out of business.
There is nothing remotely optimistic in this bill. Simply put, it’s designed to have full control over the health care of American citizens while the up and coming American aristocracy enjoys their pampered private insurance and care.
These people are fooling no one. Can you not read between the lines? National Health ID card? What for if everyone is covered? Why would I need a ID card if I supposedly can have private insurance?
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 10:05 AM
I’ll ask you again: why not fix Medicare and Medicaid?
ddrintn on August 8, 2009 at 10:06 AM
Sarah cuts through the BS. I like it.
joe_doufu on August 8, 2009 at 10:06 AM
Tom_Shipley on August 8, 2009 at 9:17 AM
Yes Tom – they CHOOSE it because they have options. We have no idea what ‘options’ the government will ‘allow’ us to have once they’ve completed their studies and decided how much we’re worth.
People currently on Medicare do have options. You see the great thing about our current system – YOU CANNOT BE DENIED HEALTHCARE – even if you cannot afford it.
The bill the Dems want to pass will impact all of us – eventually.
sherryande on August 8, 2009 at 10:07 AM
I’m so happy you think the government is just an altruistic entity that exists solely to look out for your well being and they would never do anything unethical or evil.
The graveyard of history is filled with people like you.
The bigger government gets, the more powerful it becomes, the more control it has over your life … the more unethical, corrupt and evil it becomes. Government is made of men and women, not some heavenly angels. Never has big government shown itself to be benevolent towards it’s citizens. Never.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 10:11 AM
Don’t you guys have DNR orders in your area?
DNR….”Do Not Recusitate.” A lot of people choose this so their family members don’t have to do it. If you’re going through the end, and it’s inevitable, these orders simply mean “Don’t go to extreme lengths.”
It’s actually somewhat cruel, in my opinion, to go overboard sometimes.
My understanding is that this portion of the bill simply covers payment to hospital counselors.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 10:11 AM
My opinion is that if government was as you suggest, then there would be no problem in not offering any healthcare at all to people.
Let em’ all just die would be the attitude.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 10:13 AM
This bill is violation of state’s rights. Each state has a medical board that governs the practice of medicine in that state. This federal advisory panel steps not only on physycians but also the states in which they practice.
BrianA on August 8, 2009 at 10:14 AM
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 10:04 AM
Yes, DNR’s are common – however, your choices are not limited by government guidelines. Also, the couneling sessions cover more than just a DNR. And – Yes, these counseling sessions are mandatory and can be as often as the government sees fit. The counseling sessions can be mandated ff you have any change in your health or enter a care facility.
There is nothing silly about Americans being upset that the goverment may have a say in their medical needs. If there is any chance (and according to this bill – there is a more than a chance) then people have every right to be upset.
sherryande on August 8, 2009 at 10:15 AM
I don’t think this section has anything to do with medical boards at all, which is why the statement will swatted down. She apparently is listening to the rumors rather than actually speaking about the bill itself.
That’s not impressive, btw, for obvious reasons.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 10:17 AM
You sound convinced. I just read an article today on RCP about this, and it indicated that there’s no mandatory wording at all.
But I’ll trust you’ve read the actual wording.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 10:18 AM
The emerging American aristocracy needs workers. They want them as cheaply as they can get them. The rest, yes, they’ll let them die.
Read the history of Progressivism. One of the core ideologies, if not the core ideology, is population control. That’s why abortion is their number one issue. They will sacrifice virtually everything for abortion.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 10:19 AM
People will be pressured to accept signing a DNR document. Believe it.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 10:20 AM
Here’s a fairly objective article on the controversial section.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/07/AR2009080703043.html
I’m partially right. And there is a clause that makes counseling mandatory, so some of you are right, too.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 10:24 AM
OK – here’s just the first 45% of the awful bObamacare bill:
Read it and weep!
Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
Page 42: The “Health Choices Commissioner” will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None!
Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Health card.
Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and AmeriCorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No “judicial review” is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
Page 167: Any individual who doesn’t have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
Page 203: “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it really says that.
Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected.”
Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you’ll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
Page 253: Government sets value of doctors’ time, their professional judgment, etc.
Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on “community” input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing
Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
Page 379: More bureaucracy: Tele-health Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient’s health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
TexasJew on August 8, 2009 at 10:25 AM
The part I’m right about is that it has nothing to do with boards.
Sarah didn’t do her homework before issuing her statement.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 10:25 AM
I want to know why I’ll need a national health ID card if I supposedly can buy private insurance.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 10:26 AM
The government will PAY doctors to INITIATE end-of-life conversations with ailing and elderly patients – and will provide the doctors with a content list of topics that they must cover with the patients before the doctor can be paid.
So kindly Dr. Welby will be paid by the government to initiate end-of-life discussions with their already ailing and fearful, and perhaps elderly patients. The trustworthy doctor in whose hands these scared people rely on will be compelled to read a end-of-life options script – written by Nancy Pelosi or Henry Waxman, say – before s/he can be paid by the government. What can possibly go wrong?
ChrisB on August 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM
Thank you for that, Singer. It’s always good to have the context behind a quote or saying. (And the doc was right).
OldEnglish on August 8, 2009 at 10:28 AM
Any treatment paid for by the government must be approved by a panel of fat, corrupt bureaucrats whose goal is limiting cost.
She’s done her homework, you need to do yours.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 10:28 AM
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 10:18 AM
Yes, I have read the actual language – haven’t you?
While the word “mandatory” is not in the language, neither are the words “suggested” – “optional” – “recommended” – etc., etc. Additionally, there are no words that say that you can opt out of the counseling sessions – just that they will occur every 5 years or at the discretion of the government.
I don’t know about you but that sounds mandatory to me.
sherryande on August 8, 2009 at 10:32 AM
AnninCA,
Just wait until you have your first “advanced care planning” meeting. You’ll be told yes the condition you have is treatable, but very expensive and the resources would be put to better use treating the young and productive. You’ll be told that you might possibly become a burden to your family, and that itself might cause “stress” in their life affecting their health.
The “practitioner” will edge you closer and closer to signing a document that essentially says you’re accepting death over care.
Good Luck! Hope you like your happy friendly government!
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 10:32 AM
Right now, there’s no reimbursement for these services. Medicare has taken, as the article says, a more “gentle” approach.
The part I’m right about is that it’s about DNR orders.
Probably one of the chief reasons I disagree with you guys on this is that I believe in end of life planning. I have only one kid, so he already knows how I feel about quality of life stuff.
But a lot of people haven’t had those discussions. They really should. It puts the family in a horrible spot and leads to all kinds of lawsuits that are unnecessary.
And, no, I don’t agree that the doctor will be pushing the patient one way or another.
There’s just too much hype going on about this bill. There’s plenty of legitimate stuff to debate.
And, if that reimbursement bugs people, shoot…just take it out.
Let hospitals suck up the costs, like they have to do now.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 10:33 AM
She was referring to medical boards, Darwin, and you know it.
I like Sarah. But she picked an inflammatory issue to speak about. That doesn’t even bother me, but then she should be politic enough to make sure she nails the facts.
She just looks careless to me over this one.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 10:35 AM
Either you’re intentionally playing naive or you really are this gullible.
Government acts in it’s own self interest, not yours.
Wake up. You have no idea of the evil at hand.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 10:38 AM
Ann, the government paying doctors – and providing them with a mandatory script – to initate the end-of-life conversation with an ailing, fearful, patient is not neutral medical advice. The patients are already relying on the doctor for their very life. How likely is it that more than a few patients will take the doctor up on his or her offer just because they do not want to tick off the person in whose hands their lives depend?
ChrisB on August 8, 2009 at 10:38 AM
You’re really confused. All treatment will be decided by bureaucrats whose sole interest is keep costs down. If that wasn’t their goal, why even have a panel to begin with? Just let the doctor make all the decisions and keep the government out of it.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 10:40 AM
Medical Boards my ass, Sarah was talking about rationing health care and you damn well know it. I can not stand people that willfully try to be ignorant.
djohn669 on August 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM
I want to know why I’ll need a national health ID card if I supposedly can buy private insurance.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 10:26 AM
btw – Sec. 1173A 2(D): “enable the real-time (or near real-time)determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service and to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility, which may include utilization of a machine-readable health-care beneficiary utilization card.”
TexasJew on August 8, 2009 at 10:46 AM
djohn669 on August 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM
Hit the nail on the head ;o)
sherryande on August 8, 2009 at 10:47 AM
Read the damn bill – what’s not being said in it is as scary as what is being said in it.
It is a giagantic payoff to Obama’s buddies and the destruction of our fantastic healthcare system.
I don’t see the Left ever actually quoting it.
TexasJew on August 8, 2009 at 10:51 AM
Because your health history will be in a data bank that hospitals/docs/govt have access to. This is one of the O’s favorites – electronic health records. It may be a good idea, it can be open for abuse, and some company will get the contract to provide the hardware and software. Maybe the most efficient and most secure and best priced company will get that contract, but I suspect a company that has supported the Dems will get it. There are a lot of issues in this bill that we have to face up to – end of life planning is one of them. But there is also a ton of pork for O’s supporters. And if the plan is so great then why are all govt employees (not just Congress) exempt from it? And if they’re not govt employees now, they will be made govt employees somehow. So the community organizers will become govt employees.
mph on August 8, 2009 at 10:59 AM
and….
I don’t find anything scary in this.
But I would agree with critics that it’s caused quite a stir.
So just delete it. It’s actually a service. But if people view planning as some nefarious goal, so be it.
Just delete it.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 11:00 AM
DNR
UNREPENTANT CONSERVATIVE CAPITOLIST on August 8, 2009 at 11:02 AM
Those “shalls” are all written by Congressional Democrats, Ann, not the doctors in whose hands the patients are trusting. And the doctors are not relying on the best interests of the patient in reciting them – they being paid by the government to say them.
ChrisB on August 8, 2009 at 11:07 AM
Of course, it’s a bill. But the doctors would be doing the talking. Frankly, one thing nobody has picked up on in this debate is that it’s unnecessary to have a doctor do this. Right now, most hospitals leave this stuff to social workers hired by the hospitals.
That’s a lot more economically efficient. Doctors don’t need to be involved, except to give a patient information about prognosis and diagnosis of illness.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 11:11 AM
If that great lady runs for the presidency, I’m putting all I have (for what that’s worth) supporting her. She talks straight. She lives her beliefs, most of which I happen to share. She matters. Those of you who think she’s a quitter? Take her explanation at its face. She didn’t feel she could do her job properly while under ongoing, sustained attack by the most vicious and well-orchestrated character assassination campaign ever conducted against anyone, ever. When viewed from that perspective, resigning the office was the most ethical decision she could make.
troyriser_gopftw on August 8, 2009 at 11:12 AM
they wont have that option.
This bill will not only cause a tremendous innefiency to the health care system, but it will cause an absolute standstill in the medical field, and who the hell is going to do research if the government wont pay for it???? The bullcrap wont be worth the effort required.All research will be stopped, no further advances.
The people would be be better served by just trying to provide services to the “40 million”-(another bs propaganda number)uninsured. States already provide services to these people anyway, and nobody gets turned away when they need care right now! This bill is a waste of resources,people, and nothing more than a power grab by a bunch of socialists who think they can run my life.
UNREPENTANT CONSERVATIVE CAPITOLIST on August 8, 2009 at 11:17 AM
SH!!TE!!! I get the flu and go dark for 2 days and SarahCuda decides to drop a bomb!
I love it! You speak for me Mrs. Palin.
Obama’s Death Panel.
This woman knows how to piss Obama off just right.
I wonder if Shatner will be reading this piece to bongo drums & a bass? I THINK NOT.
portlandon on August 8, 2009 at 11:23 AM
GE has already set up a new division for just that. And, we not how trustworthy they are. /s
HoustonRight on August 8, 2009 at 11:23 AM
not how = know how sotty
HoustonRight on August 8, 2009 at 11:24 AM
What Palin said was a piercing and metaphoric truth revealing that she understands — as few if any conservative politicians seem to — the nature of the Left. “Death Panel” was brilliant mainly for how it reached into our collective literary subconscious, such as it exists anymore in this literarily denuded age — to dredge up nightmare visions like Orwell’s “Animal Farm.” But in fact “death panel” is a prosaic and simple description for what is coming, for what always comes with the Left.
rrpjr on August 8, 2009 at 11:24 AM
So, let me get this straight. Nancy Pelosi can call us a bunch of Nazis. Barack Obama can call us “angry mobs”. Barbara Boxer can call us paid shills for the insurance lobby. But Sarah Palin cannot say this healthcare bill would lead to “Death Panels”??? She is using the exact same language and tactics of the left (finally someone on our side has learned to fight fire with fire) and people on both sides of the aisle are losing their minds. I am sick and tired of so-called conservatives saying we need to rise above the rhetoric all the while we are getting our arses handed to us in eleciton afer election. Enough hand-wringing. This bill is a monstrosity and if it passes it will forever change this nation–and not for the better. And anyone who thinks “Death Panels” are not in our future if this bill does pass, you are living in denial. How does the government provide “healthcare” for the entire population and still reduce the cost? It rations and it does so ineffectively. Wake up, people! Sarah Palin said what we have all been saying for weeks and some are now cowering in the corner because it sounds too harsh. Geez.
Redneck Woman on August 8, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Me?
I don’t like any of them. I’m toast on all the exaggerated rhetoric.
They all seem like idiots.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 11:42 AM
No, Pelosi did not call you a bunch of Nazis. She noted that people were carrying swastikas and other Nazi symbolism to these rallies. Her implication that THEY are calling Obama and the dems Nazis.
Guess what, she was right.
That’s not even mentioning this.
Tom_Shipley on August 8, 2009 at 11:56 AM
You know guntotoinglibertarian,
You & your wife and take your $4800 dollars worth of opinion and stick it where the sun don’t shine.
You pop up on every Palin thread as a “former Palin supporter” who donated “$4800 dollars” after Palin’s announcement to the ticket.
Vote against her in the ’12 primaries than, go work in Ron Paul’s campaign, but please. Just STFU already. Your talking points are getting old, even here at HotAir.
That is all.
portlandon on August 8, 2009 at 12:15 PM
LOL.
I love it.
I can see Ronnie with his robe eating jelly beans.
portlandon on August 8, 2009 at 12:24 PM
are “living wills” even valid in every state? i’m not sure about here in Virginia.
anninca mentioned that social workers would be making some of these “end of life” visits with patients & family.
i know some very good, intelligent social workers. however, i also know some that do not have the sense to come in out of the rain.
so no thanks to the social worker angle.
kelley in virginia on August 8, 2009 at 12:28 PM
So, you trust the government? Seems to me, that it is the camels nose under the tent.
Johan Klaus on August 8, 2009 at 12:32 PM
I think the point is that even if a bright line is drawn against counseling someone to end their life, that doesn’t address the issue of these panels deciding that someone shouldn’t receive anymore “curative” care and should instead just prepare to die.
That is a decision that should only be made by the patient, not a bureaucrat. And I can easily see some panel deciding that a Down Syndrome baby shouldn’t receive care because it’s “a waste” of resources. Consider that the medical profession almost universally encourages the abortion of down syndrome babies- why would they treat them any better now?
Sackett on August 8, 2009 at 12:38 PM
Guess what, she was right.
That’s not even mentioning this.
Tom_Shipley on August 8, 2009 at 11:56 AM
How stupid are you, Moby? (sans Dick)
TexasJew on August 8, 2009 at 12:51 PM
Hey Folks,
It looks to me like the troll is pro Death Panel. I could have called this one.
Geochelone on August 8, 2009 at 12:58 PM
DNC = DNR
Geochelone on August 8, 2009 at 12:58 PM
If you are going to die anyway why not let the experts on the government Death Panel decide what day?
Geochelone on August 8, 2009 at 12:59 PM
I don’t like any of them. I’m toast on all the exaggerated rhetoric.
They all seem like idiots.
AnninCA on August 8, 2009 at 11:42 AM
Another pathetically fraudulent “moderate” position.
So we are not supposed to have debate on this nation-killing monstrosity, but rather respectfully eat it all up with a spoon, like they do in Pyongyang?
You are clear as a bell, kiddo.
TexasJew on August 8, 2009 at 1:00 PM
I think the real experts in the electorate panel are beating the phony experts on Obama’s panel.
TexasJew on August 8, 2009 at 1:02 PM
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Thank you… That is exactly how I feel about the government, and especially about Barry “Acorn Aires Wright” Obama. Stay the F**k out of my health care and personal info.
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RalphyBoy on August 8, 2009 at 1:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-dQfb8WQvo
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aka… Damn granny… just die already (as prescribed by the Death Panel).
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RalphyBoy on August 8, 2009 at 1:16 PM
Are you cool with the appointing of czars accountable only to the executive?
Spirit of 1776 on August 8, 2009 at 1:17 PM
Lets face it. These old people retire and don’t pay enough taxes and then they have the nerve to tap into Soc Sec fund.
If that isn’t enough these old people teeter around with walkers expelling carbon into our atmosphere and driving in the slow lane with their blinkers on.
All a Death Panel would do is to rid the highways of their presence and preserve the sanctity of the Soc Sec Fund for when we retire.
Geochelone on August 8, 2009 at 1:29 PM
“Well, Sarah lost me on this one. This statement is way, way too out there.”
“Sarah didn’t do her homework before issuing her statement”
“I don’t particularly respect the overexaggerated rhetoric going on with this issue. It’s plain silly.”
Don’t let AnninCa trip you guys up…It deliberately makes declarative statements like those I’ve quoted to rile up the sincere and intersted posters here at HA. It will try to get you so mad that soon you’ll be reduced to nasty interactions with it…which is what it wants …then we will not be talking about the brilliance of Sarah Palin…who with one Facebook statement can produce a thread like this where sincere people provide us with gold to counteract what the Hatefilled Left wants to do and their talking point lies…I’ve gotten a ton of good stuff!
Ignore it… it is paid to come here and do this…why help it?
CCRWM on August 8, 2009 at 1:33 PM
Yep. Its called Thread Hijacking. That is why they banned her from No Quarter.
Geochelone on August 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM
Hasn’t Ezekial Emmanuel, our Health Care Policy Czar, been talking about limiting health care to productive people only? He’s against the Hippocratic Oath and for euthanasia for the disabled and infirm.
Deadly Doctors
theCork on August 8, 2009 at 1:44 PM
The Death Panel should be outsourced to save precious tax dollars. The Hemlock Society would be the obvious choice but I am sure China would do it for free as long as they get to harvest the organs for their favorite soup recipes.
Geochelone on August 8, 2009 at 1:45 PM
That wasn’t Pelosi’s implication, and you know it. That’s just more disingenuous after-the-fact ass-covering.
ddrintn on August 8, 2009 at 1:49 PM
It’s cool when Obama does it. Bush? That’s the Fourth Reich.
ddrintn on August 8, 2009 at 2:04 PM
NO.
The final version of the bill would be written in secret by a conference committee of the top liberal hacks from House and Senate, “reconciling” the House and Senate bills. And there isn’t a Senate bill on the table yet– them bums vote “bills” before they’re printed– so any appeal to the “actual” bill is based on myth.
These liars have earned every ounce of distrust.
What IS fact is the genius behind this bill, Barack Hussein Obama, voted for infanticide because he can’t figure a duty to care for newborns. He explored ending a federal guarantee of medical care to veterans until it got too politically hot. He has sold this bill as a great way to spare the government the expense of paying for all the surgery and testing and prescriptions that your wacky doctors would perform if left unchecked by politicians. And he’s hired plenty of like minded eugenicists as “advisors”. That’s who’s going to be behind closed doors writing the final version, and you can only quote from it once it becomes law.
So let’s debate what the arbiters have brainstormed about on the record, before they got bushwhacked by the popular reaction to their meddling.
Chris_Balsz on August 8, 2009 at 2:05 PM
Let me be clear- I’m against the bill. Too much government involvement in decision-making, the sanctioing of illegal aliens, and the fact that I believe it will have an adverse effect on my current employer-based coverage.
But AnninCA is dead-on right. 1. I think we’re over-reacting to the end of life counselling language, and 2. the solution to that problem is to delete that part of the bill.
I have to assume that was Palin’s intention with the hyperbolic language, focussing on that one item. If the intent was to kill the bill, I think she did more harm than good.
connertown on August 8, 2009 at 2:05 PM
Oh, come on. What they delete now for PR purposes can always be reinserted later.
What the whole thing is really is a huge blank check the government is writing itself.
The intent is to point out problems with the whole concept. I don’t think her comments are going to provide a 10-point swing in the polls in favor of the House bill.
ddrintn on August 8, 2009 at 2:10 PM
Geochelone & CCRWM
Some of us here at HA like to actually debate and express conflicting points of view. Especially when people back up their ideas with reason. That is not “trolling”.
AnninCA and Ernesto are prime examples. Ditto Tom_Shipley on this thread. If you can’t stomach a little debate, then just pick another thread.
Save the insults and shout-downs for the true trolls, as that is their method and the language they speak.
connertown on August 8, 2009 at 2:15 PM
The solution to the problem is to kill the whole damn thing.
I’m sure Palin didn’t write this off the cuff. She probably spent a considerable amount of time writing for the effect she wanted.
True to form, the media will be bashing her as “extreme” but she got the message out there and is forcing even more people to examine this bill to see for themselves if there’s a “Death Panel”.
She knows seniors have the power to kill this bill, and with those two words she may have done just that.
The democrats will have to defend the bill against her words and they can’t.
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM
Yes, it in effect is a rationing decision that you will have little power over.
People don’t want mandatory euthanasia. This plan in effect brings us there.
Sapwolf on August 8, 2009 at 2:20 PM
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SOP when dealing with a Palin direct hit… Dismiss her as ill-informed. Boooorrriiinggg.
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RalphyBoy on August 8, 2009 at 2:23 PM
A poll on this topic at news.aol.com being now held. Please go and vote.
http://news.aol.com/article/palin-calls-obama-health-
plan-evil/608570
technopeasant on August 8, 2009 at 2:24 PM
Ann just wants free health care for her son and 20 million illegals, that’s all. If a little visit to the Death Panel is required for that, well so be it …
darwin on August 8, 2009 at 2:25 PM
If Palin’s statement is hyper-anaylyzed, and if the media convinces enough people that it was untrue and ill-informed, then I think it will have precisely the effect I stated.
Yes I think it could cause a 10 point swing the wrong way.
I wish she had left this thing to the Tea Parties. A general attack on the whole bill had a better chance of killing it.
Now we are focusing on what I believe is a weak argument.
connertown on August 8, 2009 at 2:25 PM
What rubbish from Palin. Those with children suffering from Down Syndrome could use some help and Palin could use her celebrity for good, but instead she just indulges in so much trash talk. Her fifteen minutes of fame are up.
starfleet_dude on August 8, 2009 at 2:28 PM
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