Value and Choice

posted at 9:30 am on August 5, 2009 by Doctor Zero

I’ve seen some people try to defend Obama’s ludicrous Cash for Clunkers program as something akin to a tax rebate or tax credit. This is rubbish, and betrays a dangerous misunderstanding of where government money comes from. A better understanding of basic economics would help Americans avoid the kind of snake oil salesmen currently running Washington. If the public school system won’t provide such an education, then it falls to conservatives to explain the basics, in order to build support among the voters for the policies necessary to repair the damage Obama’s madcap liberalism has wrought. We can use the Cash for Clunkers boondoggle to illustrate an important point about the relationship between freedom of choice and value. C4C doesn’t just waste money – like every instrument of central economic planning, it destroys value.

Cash for Clunkers is not a “tax credit” or “rebate” of any sort. In order to be either of those things, it would have to be restricted to those who paid the taxes in the first place. Furthermore, it would have to be awarded progressively, just as taxes are assessed progressively. The top 1% of wage earners pay about half of all federal income taxes, so half of a true “tax credit” would have to go to them. Something tells me we’ll never see a Cash for Jaguars program. Tax credits never work that way. When taxes are collected progressively, but credits and rebates are given in flat amounts – or weighted toward the lower tax brackets – the credits amount to more redistribution of wealth. If I pay twice as much in taxes as you do, but we both receive the same credit, the procedure amounts to a strikingly inefficient way to redistribute my money to you.

Cash for Clunkers doesn’t even have the pretense of being a tax credit. It’s a simple subsidy, in which taxpayers who aren’t selling clunkers subsidize people who are buying new cars. Like all government subsidies, including government aid to the poor, C4C is horrendously inefficient. Various observers have pointed out that a great deal of that first billion dollars in funding disappeared into thin air. On top of the taxpayer loot being stolen and squandered, we must add the value of the cars being destroyed. The final cost of this initiative will be far more than the billions of taxpayer dollars Congress has voted to pump into it. Of course, that funding is more of Obama’s reckless deficit spending, so the final total must be marked up to include the titanic interest paid to service the debt.

To properly appreciate the economic damage of such a subsidy, you must understand that even as Big Government spends these dollars, it is reducing their value. The name of the program is an insidious lie – it’s not “cash” for clunkers. If it was, you’d bring in your clunker, and somebody from the IRS would hand you a pile of greenbacks, or wire the money into your account. The $4500 must be used exclusively for the purchase of a new car, which must meet the conditions set forth by the government. The value of those forty-five hundred dollars is reduced, because you have no choice in how to spend it. Imagine how much further the value of that subsidy would be reduced, if it was only good for the purchase of a specific model, designed to meet the whims of the Church of Environmentalism and sold exclusively by government-owned General Motors.

Suppose you found yourself on a deserted island, with a suitcase full of money. That money would have no value, other than as kindling for a fire, because you have no place to spend it. Now suppose the island is not deserted, but you can only spend your money at a small general store that sells a limited selection of essential supplies. Your money has value in that circumstance, but not as great as the value it would have if you were at home, able to spend it on a wide variety of goods, or invest it to generate more income for yourself.

Subsidies like Cash for Clunkers degrade the value of money by restricting the ways it can be used. All money absorbed by the government loses value this way, because the government will never have the diversity of choices available to millions of free citizens. If the economy can be likened to a vast field of grain, then government spending is a high-pressure fire hose, riddled with thousands of leaks, pumping water purchased on credit from foreign suppliers, and held by a nearsighted madman. The free market is a vast raincloud that stretches for miles. The raincloud is vastly more effective for watering crops than the fire hose.

The destruction of value in this particular subsidy is even worse than usual, because it is a subsidy for the purchase of a product that depreciates with terrible speed – as the old saying goes, a car loses thousands of dollars in value the instant you drive it off the lot. Furthermore, since the C4C subsidy doesn’t completely cover the cost of the new vehicle, the consumer must take out a loan for thousands of dollars to make up the difference – and the interest on this loan, extended over four or five years, will add thousands more to the effective cost of the vehicle. Of course, the socio-economic group most likely to trade in a clunker and make a new car purchase, specifically because of this subsidy, is the group most likely to default on their loans. This particular example of Obamanomics will end up using three billion dollars of deficit spending to cause consumers to take on ten billion dollars in debt – and if the overall delinquency rate of 6% holds for these loans, one of the results will be $360 million in bad debt. The only way to make this money lose value faster would be to soak it in expensive champagne and set it on fire.

The media’s urge to celebrate Cash for Clunkers as some kind of soaring success, because lots of people showed up to buy cars and grab their free money, is evidence to be collected at the latest of socialism’s crime scenes. Socialism is always eager to shine a spotlight on its dubious “successes,” while its victims are buried quietly in the dark. In an economy as large and complex as ours, letting government reduce the value of dollars, by reducing freedom of choice, has catastrophic effects. The difference between even the most intelligently managed command economy, and the immense value produced by the free markets, is the difference between subsistence and prosperity. The current bunch in Washington can’t even manage to achieve subsistence.

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Bravo! Well done!

TheBigOldDog on August 5, 2009 at 9:34 AM

Can we cash in our Congressional clunkers?

tarpon on August 5, 2009 at 9:35 AM

excellent

cmsinaz on August 5, 2009 at 9:36 AM

Dead on, Doctor.

MadisonConservative on August 5, 2009 at 9:37 AM

*Standing ovation*!!

becki51758 on August 5, 2009 at 9:37 AM

Nice imagery there

Asher on August 5, 2009 at 9:39 AM

Of course, the socio-economic group most likely to trade in a clunker and make a new car purchase, specifically because of this subsidy, is the group most likely to default on their loans.

Also, the socio-economic group most likely to buy a used “clunker” because they can’t afford a new car payment is the group most likely to lose out on clunkers that would have been available if not for the fact that C4C requires them to be destroyed.

The used car industry is important for lower class people, because we can’t afford new cars. But they’re taking them off the road. What are we supposed to buy now?

Abby Adams on August 5, 2009 at 9:39 AM

Are all my comments now being moderated? Test. Test.

TheBigOldDog on August 5, 2009 at 9:40 AM

The only way to make this money lose value faster would be to soak it in expensive champagne and set it on fire.

I don’t think Champagne burns, does it? Too little alcohol.

I propose, as an efficiency measure, that we substitute a good cognac (or scotch, if you prefer) for the Champagne. Then drink the cognac and set the money on fire, dry.

Just trying to make better use of taxpayer money.

Daggett on August 5, 2009 at 9:41 AM

Also, the socio-economic group most likely to buy a used “clunker” because they can’t afford a new car payment is the group most likely to lose out on clunkers that would have been available if not for the fact that C4C requires them to be destroyed.

The used car industry is important for lower class people, because we can’t afford new cars. But they’re taking them off the road. What are we supposed to buy now?

Abby Adams on August 5, 2009 at 9:39 AM

By destroying these cars, which have value to those who cannot afford a new vehicle, the result is decreased supply, which leads to inflated costs for the remaining used vehicles.

ICBM on August 5, 2009 at 9:43 AM

This is a perfect example of liberal incompetence. Money for clunkers and the public spends the majority on Honda, Toyota and Hyundai which happen to not be GM and Chysler products made by UAW. If they can screw up something this simple, wait until they get to heathcare reform.

volsense on August 5, 2009 at 9:43 AM

Good post.

A shame all these remedial economics lessons are necessary in the Age of Obama.

Plenty of remedial history lessons going around too.

And remedial gift giving and head of state protocol lessons.

This stuff might be funny if they weren’t doing so much damage.

forest on August 5, 2009 at 9:44 AM

The used car industry is important for lower class people, because we can’t afford new cars. But they’re taking them off the road. What are we supposed to buy now?

Abby Adams on August 5, 2009 at 9:39 AM

A train or bus ticket or a new pair of sneakers. It’s better for the environment, ya know.

LibTired on August 5, 2009 at 9:45 AM

Doc, one more cost to add in: the money for the program is borrowed, so one needs to factor in the interest we taxpayers will pay in the future.

Vashta.Nerada on August 5, 2009 at 9:48 AM

I don’t think Champagne burns, does it? Too little alcohol.

I propose, as an efficiency measure, that we substitute a good cognac (or scotch, if you prefer) for the Champagne. Then drink the cognac and set the money on fire, dry.

Just trying to make better use of taxpayer money.

Daggett on August 5, 2009 at 9:41 AM

So that’s why my Molotov cocktails have always been expensive failures! Thanks for the tip! I lean toward scotch myself, but I think I could be persuaded to give the cognac a try…

Doctor Zero on August 5, 2009 at 9:51 AM

Keep an eye out for a lot of cheap compacts on ebay in a month or two. A lot of talk around the net about buying a cheap hyundai w/ a rebate and clunker money. Say your clunker is only worth a $1000. If you sell the new car later for for a 1000 less than the original price of the car (before rebate and clunker) then you make a nice profit.

The clunker money also artificially inflates new car prices in the same way government aid inflates the cost of college tuition. Prices rise to suck up all the available “free” money.

rbb on August 5, 2009 at 9:52 AM

The rain cloud illustration for the free market economy is excellent.

BadgerHawk on August 5, 2009 at 9:52 AM

Good post.

A shame all these remedial economics lessons are necessary in the Age of Obama.

Plenty of remedial history lessons going around too.

And remedial gift giving and head of state protocol lessons.

This stuff might be funny if they weren’t doing so much damage.

forest on August 5, 2009 at 9:44 AM

If you look at the comments to the original Green Room post, you’ll see just how necessary these remedial economics lessons are.

Doctor Zero on August 5, 2009 at 9:52 AM

…Obama’s ludicrous Cash for Clunkers program…

This ‘Green’ program would be equivalent to the Government giving me your money so I would buy a new, more expensive energy efficient house, but only if I let them burn down my old house so no one else could live in it.

Did these clowns ever take Economics 101?

Forget the August recess, let’s give Congress the rest of the year off.

Uniblogger on August 5, 2009 at 9:55 AM

Subsidies like Cash for Clunkers degrade the value of money by restricting the ways it can be used. All money absorbed by the government loses value this way, because the government will never have the diversity of choices available to millions of free citizens. If the economy can be likened to a vast field of grain, then government spending is a high-pressure fire hose, riddled with thousands of leaks, pumping water purchased on credit from foreign suppliers, and held by a nearsighted madman. The free market is a vast raincloud that stretches for miles. The raincloud is vastly more effective for watering crops than the fire hose.

That’s the best description of what’s wrong with government spending I’ve ever read.

Bravo! Well done!

TheBigOldDog on August 5, 2009 at 9:34 AM

Agreed.

Jaynie59 on August 5, 2009 at 10:00 AM

Doctor Zero must be silenced. Let’s prove he’s not really a doctor, got divorced and has been known to fornicate with “conservatives.”

/

perroviejo on August 5, 2009 at 10:04 AM

Out of the top 10 sold, due to this rebate, are (1 Chrysler Model, and (1) Government Motors. Both are in the bottom 5. In fact, Chrysler matched the rebate, that’s $9K off of sticker and still came in #7 or 8. That says a lot about their appeal.
Enviro-Nuts say it really makers no difference, we’re not helping US Companies, the program is a failure, so we’ll spend MORE to keep it going!

Jeff from WI on August 5, 2009 at 10:08 AM

Let’s see if I can stir the pot here.

What if some of those folks taking advantage of the C4C program are taxpayers, who after seeing trillions of their tax dollars go towards to all sort of nonsense, simply decided that the only way they were going to get a return on their money was to participate in this program? In some way it is the only way that the average taxpayer could have a tangible return on all of this runaway government spending.

Just a thought.

Just A Grunt on August 5, 2009 at 10:09 AM

Of course, the socio-economic group most likely to trade in a clunker and make a new car purchase, specifically because of this subsidy, is the group most likely to default on their loans.

I’ve been making this very argument to people. Well done, Doc.

NickelAndDime on August 5, 2009 at 10:11 AM

Great article; but you missed a couple of key points:

First, you didn’t mention the loss of our national net worth when we destroy a few hundred thousand cars (assuming the Senate extends C4C) with an average value of a couple of grand; that’s somewhere near a $billion in lost wealth. Add that to the tab.

Then, we (yet again) deal a smack-down to the economically responsible young and low-income folks by removing from the market, for several years to come, the supply of affordable used cars they will need. I have a daughter who decided she’d rather be “poor-ish” than finish college. She is still driving the ’96 Monte Carlo I bought her 5 years ago when she was in H.S. She’ll probably need to replace it in a year or two, but with what? Because of C4C, there won’t be any $2500 cheap cars for her to buy. Isn’t she the sort of worker the Dems are supposed to care about? Just one more way the free market would work for everyone if left alone, but central planning fails some of the very people it tries to help.

RegularJoe on August 5, 2009 at 10:16 AM

About the concept of value.

I’m sort of an HGTV junkie, and maybe because of my own personal situation, I get a lot of vicarious thrill out of watching shows like My House Is Worth What? and Bang For Your Buck.

I bought The Dump for $228,000 in 2004. I basically got the only house near my job I could afford in an area I couldn’t afford to buy in. I then spent $120,000 renovating it to make it the kind of house I could live in. It took every dime I had and more. At one point I owed $60,000 on credit cards. But I refinanced and was able to clear up most of the debt and have a mortgage I could afford every month. Aside from the mortgage, I’m debt free.

I wish my house house was now worth the $235,000 I owe on the mortgage. But, alas, it’s not.

But I’m not sorry for spending that $113,000 I’ll never get back. I got a master suit with my own bathroom. A great kitchen with granite counters that lifts my heart every time I walk into it. I can’t believe I have such a great kitchen. I have central air and a new heating system. Not a single penny of that money was wasted because I enjoy the fruits of it everyday I live here.

I drive a 2000 Ford Focus. Yes, I did go check out it’s value to see if it’s worth more than the $4500 I’d get if I traded it in. It’s only worth about $2500. But that’s the Blue Book value.

It’s got 56,000 miles on it. Aside from the air being broken it’s in pretty good shape otherwise. My insurance is reasonable. But most important? It’s paid for. The value of my old little clunker? Priceless to me.

Value doesn’t always correlate with cost.

Jaynie59 on August 5, 2009 at 10:18 AM

Of course, the socio-economic group most likely to trade in a clunker and make a new car purchase, specifically because of this subsidy, is the group most likely to default on their loans.

I have read both sides of the blogosphere with regard to the groups most likely to take advantage of this subsidy. Overall, snarky responses aside, people with a little extra spending cash will be the ones to purchase a vehicle rather than someone who would default on his loan. It’s likely that a lender won’t loan money to someone with questionable finances. Just my opinion.

Also, from the right-leaning MSNBC …

“As a carbon dioxide policy, this is a terribly wasteful thing to do,” said Henry Jacoby, a professor of management and co-director of the Joint Program on the Science and Policy of Global Change at MIT. “The amount of carbon you are saving per federal expenditure is very, very small.”

VibrioCocci on August 5, 2009 at 10:18 AM

By the way, GREAT READ, Doctor Zero!

VibrioCocci on August 5, 2009 at 10:22 AM

….decided that the only way they were going to get a return on their money was to participate in this program?…

I am going to steal some of your money & give it other people – mostly my friends or people I want to bribe to be my friends. Anyway, you can “get a some back” if you go into debt with my friends and buy something you may or may not need at an inflated price, how’s that sound?

batterup on August 5, 2009 at 10:25 AM

If you look at the comments to the original Green Room post, you’ll see just how necessary these remedial economics lessons are.

Doctor Zero on August 5, 2009 at 9:52 AM

Yep. There’s alot of work to be done. Thanks for the good posts.

forest on August 5, 2009 at 10:28 AM

I love the fact that 6 of the 10 cars that are being bought are from foreign automakers. And the fact that cars sales are going to hit the ground harder than ever when this program is over. Absolute and utter disgrace. Any person who thinks this is remotely close to a good idea should not be able to vote or be re-elected for anything. Great post here.

Tremmy on August 5, 2009 at 10:30 AM

I drive a 2000 Ford Focus. Yes, I did go check out it’s value to see if it’s worth more than the $4500 I’d get if I traded it in. It’s only worth about $2500. But that’s the Blue Book value.

It’s got 56,000 miles on it. Aside from the air being broken it’s in pretty good shape otherwise. My insurance is reasonable. But most important? It’s paid for. The value of my old little clunker? Priceless to me.

Value doesn’t always correlate with cost.

Jaynie59 on August 5, 2009 at 10:18 AM

Wow, I was just talking to a good friend of mine. He has an old Plymouth. It’s in showroom condition but it’s very old, (1970) and he was wonder what Blue Book would be on a trade in and if it would qualify. I think he said it was a Road Runner Superbird 426 Hemi 60K miles

Jeff from WI on August 5, 2009 at 10:31 AM

And I am certain that there isn’t a car dealer in the country who raised the price of their cars by$4,500 just in time for this program to start. I know this because care salesman are at least more honest than your average member of Congress.

Stephen Macklin on August 5, 2009 at 10:33 AM

Cash for Clunkers is a smoke screen to keep peoples minds off of government run health care.

Although I hate the idea that I’m paying taxes for some other stiff to get a new car. $4500 per person will seem like chump change when you’re paying several hundred dollars worth of care for some clown up from Tijuana.

Jeff from WI on August 5, 2009 at 10:34 AM

Just A Grunt on August 5, 2009 at 10:09 AM

My parents have an old truck sitting on their farm that doesn’t run. I thought about trading it in towards a new car, than turning around and selling the car. As long as it doesn’t lose more than $4500 from me driving it off the lot I’ll make a nice taxpayer funded profit.

BadgerHawk on August 5, 2009 at 10:35 AM

My parents have an old truck sitting on their farm that doesn’t run. I thought about trading it in towards a new car, than turning around and selling the car. As long as it doesn’t lose more than $4500 from me driving it off the lot I’ll make a nice taxpayer funded profit.

BadgerHawk on August 5, 2009 at 10:35 AM

To their (minuscule) credit, the Bozos in Congress AT LEAST limited the deal to clunkers that run and have been continuously insured for the last 12 months.

RegularJoe on August 5, 2009 at 10:46 AM

Jeff from WI on August 5, 2009 at 10:31 AM

It would have to be newer than 25 years old, so I don’t think it qualifies.

Abby Adams on August 5, 2009 at 10:48 AM

…It’s likely that a lender won’t loan money to someone with questionable finances. Just my opinion. …

VibrioCocci on August 5, 2009 at 10:18 AM

Dealers use a network of lenders. Credit unions to high-risk sub-prime lenders. They want you in the car. If the car is too much $ you can go for less car or higher interest. Or weekly/bi-weekly payments in conjunction with your paycheck. In recent years the trend has been toward the seven year loan. An 84 month loan lowers the payment considerably and makes the monthly within the borrowers “budget” – of course it’s ridiculous.

One tip to folks – if you are car shopping – if the dealer asks for your drivers license be sure to tell them that they do not have your permission to run a credit check on you for the test drive. Some dealers do this without your permission once they have your information off your drivers license.

batterup on August 5, 2009 at 10:49 AM

To their (minuscule) credit, the Bozos in Congress AT LEAST limited the deal to clunkers that run and have been continuously insured for the last 12 months.

RegularJoe on August 5, 2009 at 10:46 AM

Damn. Oh well. I’ve kind of resigned myself to the fate of never getting anything close to a return on my tax dollar investment.

BadgerHawk on August 5, 2009 at 10:49 AM

But you know, if they really had to do this — why didn’t they distribute the money, say, $150 per month as long as you own the car, to avoid people gaming the system?

RegularJoe on August 5, 2009 at 10:51 AM

batterup on August 5, 2009 at 10:49 AM

Good points! Thank you.

VibrioCocci on August 5, 2009 at 10:53 AM

Sorry for the repost, but this seems to make the point: “Billions of Dollars to Be Burned Under New ‘Cash for Cash’ Program”: http://www.optoons.blogspot.com/ (August 4 entry)

Mervis Winter on August 5, 2009 at 10:59 AM

C4C subsidizes foreign automakers 3:2 over American. Top that with the 1 week cost overrun 3:1 over budget. The only way C4C could claim success is to have limited its application for new American autos and stayed within its initial budget.

Tony Soprano on August 5, 2009 at 11:07 AM

I think we need to expand the Cash for Clunkers to Cash for Drab Houses, too:

We pay people $150,000 to trade up to a new home. Then we use Molotov cocktails to destroy their old home, raising the price of housing! Instant stimulus as the supply of houses at the lower end of the market diminishes, raising the price of homes up-and-down the price spectrum.

Plus, we pay firefighters, our deserving first responders, $100 an hour to keep the roaring house fires from spreading. Money in the hands of those who will spend it quickly, further instantly stimulating the economy.

ChrisB on August 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM

Are all my comments now being moderated? Test. Test.

TheBigOldDog on August 5, 2009 at 9:40 AM

Had that same problem yesterday. And for an innocuous comment. (Maybe because it was a counter to someone who had put an expletive in his comment — at least I hope that’s the case.) I felt like doing the same test you are doing now.

Christian Conservative on August 5, 2009 at 11:16 AM

Double speak is “Destroy wealth to save the economy!”

Christian Conservative on August 5, 2009 at 11:17 AM

Hmmmm, I could trade in my 89 Taurus that works perfect and gets 30mpg and that I owe nothing on to get $4500 off of a new one and have a new car and only $20,000 in debt. Or just pay the $20K in cash which would be all of the cash I’ve saved by driving my old car for 20 years.
I guess the bottom line is just hand over my money, isn’t it?

G-man on August 5, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Let’s face it.

1. C4C was buying votes.

2. C4C helps “greenie” libs feel like they’ve done something for the environment.

3. C4C just made it more difficult for the young or the poor to buy inexpensive cars (or repair the ones they have).

4. C4C robbed taxpayers who didn’t take advantage of C4C as well as those who did, their children and their grandchildren.

5. C4C did nothing to save energy. Whenever something useful is destroyed and replaced by something new, it’s a waste. That doesn’t even take into account the energy needed to destroy the old engines, and remove the from the clunkers, transport the car carcasses, recycle whatever can be recycled and landfill the rest.

6. All the new cars bought through this program gave a boost to auto sales that will soon take a dive when the program ends. How many cars were sold that would have been bought in the next year anyway without the billions of taxpayer money to sweeten the deal?

Sloan Morganstern on August 5, 2009 at 11:28 AM

…and gets 30mpg …

G-man on August 5, 2009 at 11:20 AM

If that’s true, it doesn’t qualify anyway.

Abby Adams on August 5, 2009 at 11:28 AM

From the original Greenroom comments:

Where do people think this 4,500 is coming from?

Space?

blatantblue on August 4, 2009 at 10:18 PM

Saturn’s rings? The red soil of angry Mars?

/awesomest

Abby Adams on August 5, 2009 at 11:41 AM

And I am certain that there isn’t a car dealer in the country who raised the price of their cars by$4,500 just in time for this program to start. I know this because care salesman are at least more honest than your average member of Congress.

Stephen Macklin on August 5, 2009 at 10:33 AM

It’s anecdotal but take as you will… We spent a few days car shopping last weekend hoping to overcome the clunker program to find a sports car for the younger kid. We do not have a car to trade in, nor would we.

There weren’t any cars priced over sticker at the various dealers that aren’t normally over sticker at this time of the year. But there were lots of cars at sticker – dealers were not interested in budging.

The dealer are not being dishonest in their dealings, they have been put in the catbird seat by the government. So they are making the most money they can while they can, it’s not malice on the dealers part.

Place the blame where it belongs. The government is interfering in the free market.

batterup on August 5, 2009 at 11:50 AM

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=am1mj6R6tAcg

Good! 4 of top 5 autos sold are Honda or Toyota!
If I were to buy into this dumbass scheme which I would not!
(I would take my chances making my own deal and selling or giving away my clunker rather than make my neighbors fork over $4500 to me)

But, If I bought in I would also refuse to buy a Goberment car thus further bailing out the Unions and Auto makers that went to the American taxpayer hat in hand askin for a bailout rather than being responsible and controling costs and quality.

This inbalance must be rectified and I’m sure Pinnochio will address the grevious error by limiting the autos to only union bailed out companies if he can!

dhunter on August 5, 2009 at 11:54 AM

It’s hilarious how not a peep is said about how President Bush and the GOP passed a $75,000 tax deduction for good old “business purposes” for buyers of very pricey SUVs. So much for all the squawking here about cash-for-clunkers being based on principle!

starfleet_dude on August 5, 2009 at 12:08 PM

Good! 4 of top 5 autos sold are Honda or Toyota!

dhunter on August 5, 2009 at 11:54 AM

Yep. LMAO. Five of the top six cars sold in the program are Japanese, and seven of the top ten. These brainless M-Fers can’t stimulate their own schwanzes, much less the car business.

You just know they were targeting Government Motors, and not a single GM car is in the top ten sold. You just can’t make this sh!t up.

Jaibones on August 5, 2009 at 12:45 PM

so, your whining about .038% of the stimulus package. This is a plan to reduce inventory and no dealers are complaining and no legitimate claims of fraud. You bozo’s are just complaining b/c this plan is actually working against your best wishes of it failing.

jero_jones on August 5, 2009 at 12:50 PM

Good! 4 of top 5 autos sold are Honda or Toyota!

Bet you clowns did not know those cars are made in the USA.

jero_jones on August 5, 2009 at 12:52 PM

starfleet_dude on August 5, 2009 at 12:08 PM

Ummm… everyone readily admits that Bush was a flaming liberal when it comes to spending.

You bozo’s are just complaining b/c this plan is actually working …

jero_jones on August 5, 2009 at 12:50 PM

Bwahahaha… obviously did not read the post.

Abby Adams on August 5, 2009 at 12:56 PM

So that’s why my Molotov cocktails have always been expensive failures! Thanks for the tip! I lean toward scotch myself, but I think I could be persuaded to give the cognac a try…

Doctor Zero on August 5, 2009 at 9:51 AM

I though Molotov were pure gasoline in a liquor bottle.

Count to 10 on August 5, 2009 at 1:10 PM

If you look at the comments to the original Green Room post, you’ll see just how necessary these remedial economics lessons are.

Doctor Zero on August 5, 2009 at 9:52 AM

I just looked — you’re not kidding.

Count to 10 on August 5, 2009 at 1:19 PM

It’s hilarious how not a peep is said about how President Bush and the GOP passed a $75,000 tax deduction for good old “business purposes” for buyers of very pricey SUVs. So much for all the squawking here about cash-for-clunkers being based on principle!

starfleet_dude on August 5, 2009 at 12:08 PM

On principle, there should be no corporate taxes in the first place.

Count to 10 on August 5, 2009 at 1:22 PM

Yep. LMAO. Five of the top six cars sold in the program are Japanese, and seven of the top ten. These brainless M-Fers can’t stimulate their own schwanzes, much less the car business.

You just know they were targeting Government Motors, and not a single GM car is in the top ten sold. You just can’t make this sh!t up.

Jaibones on August 5, 2009 at 12:45 PM

Actually, those kinds of statistics are only important in the deluded mind of those who by into Keynesian economics. The truth is, none of it is stimulating; worse, in this case, it is being used to reduce total resources.
Now, it is likely that they wanted this to shovel money at the UAW (besides appeasing their AGW fanatics); the numbers would suggest that they have wasted a lot of money without even managing to be competently corrupt.

Count to 10 on August 5, 2009 at 1:27 PM

Another reason this C4C program is an environmental disaster is that it effectively maintains the status-quo of 100% oil dependence in the transportation sector.

The government jumped too soon… we don’t have viable alternative-fuels established yet to usher in the much anticipated post-petroleum era in transportation… If you are truly trying to fix our problems, you’d have waited to incentivize a change to whatever is “next” – instead of prolonging the history of 100% oil-dependency…

fwj on August 5, 2009 at 1:34 PM

Now suppose the island is not deserted, but you can only spend your money at a small general store that sells a limited selection of essential supplies.

Sound a lot like the way the coal mining industry once had company store and the workers wages would barely pay for the necessities of life. That the way the Democrats/Socialist want it. They want you to have to get you subsitence from them but only enough for you to barely survive.

TrickyDick on August 5, 2009 at 1:38 PM

On principle, there should be no corporate taxes in the first place.

Ever since it was decided that corporations shall be treated as persons under the law, they are subject to taxes just as people are.

starfleet_dude on August 5, 2009 at 1:51 PM

Ever since it was decided that corporations shall be treated as persons under the law, they are subject to taxes just as people non-Obama Administration members are.

starfleet_dude on August 5, 2009 at 1:51 PM

I got your back, sf_dude.

Abby Adams on August 5, 2009 at 2:06 PM

My God, the econ fail in that original thread is staggering.

TheUnrepentantGeek on August 5, 2009 at 2:09 PM

Good! 4 of top 5 autos sold are Honda or Toyota!

Bet you clowns did not know those cars are made in the USA.

jero_jones on August 5, 2009 at 12:52 PM

I’m well aware their made in the USA, by friends of mine, but the fact is the dirty, rotten scumbags that took the Pinnochio Presidente’s taxpayer funded bailout are still failing miserably because the mob run corruptocrat Union
is fleecing G.M. and Chrysler soo bad and turning out such an inferior product that given the choice even with $4500 of some neighbors money in their pocket the folks won’t buy the union made bailed out crap…
LMAO… in Spades

dhunter on August 5, 2009 at 2:16 PM

jero_jones on August 5, 2009 at 12:52 PM

It’s FUN when trolls spew out insults along with their talking points and Overall Stupidity. You and ‘starfleet dude’ should hook up….. ( or you already are a Couple )

The new troll practice seems to be attacking in pairs.

Another great post, Doc Z. You mentioned ignorance about economics, but I think the jerks who arguing here are simply hard-core Leftoids who want to transform this country and WANT the damage that will accrue. They know what this program is and know it was designed to inflict harm on whatever is left of ‘the free market’ while paying off the auto workers union.

Janos Hunyadi on August 5, 2009 at 2:20 PM

This is a great analysis!

There may be another pernicious effect: How many times have we heard of “dealer incentives” to sell cars at below “Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price”, which nobody pays anyway? If a dealer knows he will get $4,500 from the Government for a clunker, won’t he just add $4,500 to the discount price, since the consumer’s out-of-pocket cost would be the same?

Another pernicious effect: what is the condition of the clunker? There are plenty of old (>10 years) but usable cars out there whose value on the open market is less than $4,500. These cars are frequently bought by low-income people (who can’t afford a new car) or by college students whose parents wouldn’t trust them (or pay the collision insurance) with a new car. By giving owners of old cars $4,500 to junk them, the Government is artifically reducing the supply of cheap cars to those who need them most, in the middle of a recession.

Meanwhile, dealers stuck with unsalable old cars will probably unload them to junk dealers, who will reap a windfall by getting cars in good running condition for the price of driving or towing the cars from a dealership to a junkyard. Will the Government then FORCE the junkyard to sell the car for parts, or could the junkyard hope that the Feds look the other way while they sell the car back to low-income people?

It’s probably a good time to be in the junker-clunker business, subsidized by Uncle Sam!

Steve Z on August 5, 2009 at 2:24 PM

so, your whining about .038% of the stimulus package. This is a plan to reduce inventory and no dealers are complaining and no legitimate claims of fraud. You bozo’s are just complaining b/c this plan is actually working against your best wishes of it failing.

jero_jones on August 5, 2009 at 12:50 PM

The dealers have been offering better incentives than this every year at this time and in fact were earlier this year until Uncle Democrats got involved and stole taxpayer money to give to their subsidiary Auto Companies. The free market regulates inventory just fine.
These bozos were trying to funnel money to their friends but there is too much competition out there.
The consumer still doesn’t want G.M. and Chrysler and especially not now since they stole taxpayer money to bail themselves out.
Can you imagine what the Pinnochio Presidente and his Merry band of Marxist wannabees will have learned form this?
They dare not allow too much competition in healthcare either else no-one in his right mind will want to use it. They have to force us all into a Government run plan where they control the costs by deciding who gets care and who doesn’t.
All except their Union Friends and themselves that is! They are exempt!
I say lynch em and let God sort em out!
These douchebags couldn’t run a monopoly on AIR!

dhunter on August 5, 2009 at 2:27 PM

How much can I get for a slightly used unicorn?

Thanks for nothing.

hillbillyjim on August 5, 2009 at 2:30 PM

Good! 4 of top 5 autos sold are Honda or Toyota!

Bet you clowns did not know those cars are made in the USA.

jero_jones on August 5, 2009 at 12:52 PM

I’ll wager that you have no clue what percentage of the selling price of a new vehicle goes overseas and out of the US economy every time an American-built Honda or Toyota is purchased.

You, my friend, are the clown.

Seek help.

hillbillyjim on August 5, 2009 at 2:35 PM

Four of the five top-selling cars in the government’s “Cash for Clunkers” program are made by foreign automakers, according to new data released Tuesday by federal transportation officials.

———–WaPo

So, jero my zero, we are borrowing $4500 every time one of these transactions takes place, from China no less, and sending $3600 of it to Japan.

Brilliant.

hillbillyjim on August 5, 2009 at 2:54 PM

So, jero my zero, we are borrowing $4500 every time one of these transactions takes place, from China no less, and sending $3600 of it to Japan.

Brilliant.

hillbillyjim on August 5, 2009 at 2:54 PM

BBBWWWWHHHHHAAAAA! Thats’ hallarious!
Ef over the taxpayer by bailin out union and Big Two Gobernment auto,
Ef over the taxpayer to bailem out more by borrowin money from China that the taxpayer will have to pay back,
The taxpayer gets even by refusin the cars bein bailed out because their union made pieces of crap,
so the taxpayer sends his money to Japan instead.
There is justice in there somewhere.
Free market says there is a reason the Big Two were goin broke .
Its because they were makin high priced crap no-one wants!
High priced because the union cry babies always needed more money, more healthcare, more private golf clubs, more kiddycare , bigger pensions.
Ford had a great quarter without the bailout and G.M. and Chrysler will really go bust now that Uncle Goberment owns em!

dhunter on August 5, 2009 at 3:05 PM

I though Molotov were pure gasoline in a liquor bottle.

Count to 10 on August 5, 2009 at 1:10 PM

The recipe my long-ago anarchist friend shared with me was gasoline with about 10% liquid soap per volume, to make it stick to surfaces like napalm, supposedly.

Dark-Star on August 5, 2009 at 3:42 PM

I love you Zero but I think you are on the wrong side of this issue. I agree with other reports in the media that Cash for Clunkers is the poor subsidizing the rich.

The only people I know who own gas guzzling luxury cars, SUVs and minivans are middle class to wealthy people (although I do know a few poor people with trucks). Wealthy people are the only ones who could afford to buy a new car in this poor economy. A few people will buy cars and trade in their clunkers who can’t afford loans but this always happens. The bubble has already burst for most of these people by having their homes in foreclosure and their cars repossessed, so they cannot currently qualify for car loans. The 10% unemployed workers in America will not be able to buy cars at this time. Many poor people drive old small cars because they are cheap to maintain and run. Older small cars do not meet the very low mpg quotas of the C4C program. Also, poor people can only afford to purchase clunkers. The clunkers are being destroyed, thereby decreasing the future market of used cars for the lower class.

C4C is just another liberal legislation sold to Americans as an aid to the underprivileged but it actually does the opposite. Why the GOP leader of the Senate, Mitch McConnell, is supporting this Democrat boondoggle (with some changes) is beyond me.

HellCat on August 5, 2009 at 4:07 PM

I continually hear the politicians acting surprised and bragging about how well this program has worked. Any IDIOT would expect that when you give away FREE MONEY, the people will come out in droves. Is this what we pay taxes for?? So that they can take it and pick who they will pass it out to next!!!! Tax dollars are supposed to be used for protecting our national security and providing for a few necessary services. This country, in my opinion, has gone the HELL and I see no good for it’s future.

hillbilly on August 5, 2009 at 4:34 PM