Wow: Dozens of Democrats lining up against ObamaCare over … abortion?

posted at 6:15 pm on July 22, 2009 by Allahpundit

The Standard counts no fewer than 53 Dems on record as having problems with the House bill, but so lopsided is the blue majority that the GOP would need to peel off 40 of them to block it. That’s not going to happen on Obama’s signature policy initiative. Assuming their objections are economic in nature, Pelosi will simply shower the fencesitters with legislative goodies until enough of them are willing to choke down ObamaCare.

But what if their objections are based on something more profound than economics?

Democratic Rep. Bart Stupak said he is “optimistic” that his campaign to include explicit language condemning the use of federal funds for abortion in the House health care bill will pass the House Energy and Commerce Committee. The congressman from Michigan did however say on today’s “Washington Unplugged” that the House will likley not vote on the bill before their July 31st deadline.

“I think if they do not have [the language] in there and President Obama says we are going to have a bill with nothing in there on abortion, I think it is going to backfire. I think we bring down the rule and it will be explicitly discussed in the health care plan one way or another,” Stupak told Washington Unplugged’s Michelle Levi after a press conference with Republican colleagues on Capitol Hill Wednesday.

Stupak told CBS News that he feels confident that “a minimum of thirty nine” democrats would join him in opposing the legislation proposed by House leaders should the abortion language not be written in.

A bluff? Maybe not. The One was conspicuously solicitous of the pro-life position when asked about this yesterday by Katie Couric:

The president told CBS Evening News anchor Katie Couric that he is “not trying to micro-manage what benefits are covered.”

“I’m pro-choice, but I think we also have the tradition in this town, historically, of not financing abortions as part of government-funded health care,” he said, adding: “My main focus is making sure that people have options of high quality care at the lowest possible price.”

I’m astounded that they’ve reached this point of the process without having ironed out a consensus on abortion. Dan Gilgoff, U.S. News’s religious beat reporter, says it’s a clusterfark in the making, with centrist evangelicals using this as a test case to see whether The One’s serious about finding “common ground” with pro-lifers while Planned Parenthood’s busy insisting that “without genuine access to reproductive healthcare, a woman’s right to choose is made meaningless.” I don’t see how they square the circle. If the point of ObamaCare is to provide necessary medical services to the poor, and if it’s the poor who supposedly most need access to abortion because they can least afford the financial hardship of having to feed another child, then how can the left politically afford to shaft them on this? Either the plan is to pass the bill now without abortion funding and then insert the provision at a later date — although who knows if the Dems will ever have the numbers in Congress for that — or they’ve somehow written off Stupak’s pro-life coalition and are going to get the votes they need from a few key Republican defectors, a la cap and trade.

Or a third option: They don’t have the votes.


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Proudly yes. Born in Hutchinson, lived in Wichita since 87. Cop for ten years. 2 years at WSU.

FlyoverJ-HawkFan on July 22, 2009 at 6:43 PM

Lived in Hutch briefly myself, parents married there. They’re in Wichita now, both alums of WSU.

jazz_piano on July 22, 2009 at 6:55 PM

Did my first stint in Kansas in the early ’70s. Spent 2 yrs working on jet motors at McConell AFB. Then lived in Olathe and Osawatomie from ’80-’02.

davidk on July 22, 2009 at 7:07 PM

Doctor: oh, and your paperwork says you are suffering from dementia and are delusional …

crosspatch on July 22, 2009 at 7:08 PM

Also in lue of abortion funding, why not government funded and mandated tuberligation.

Temporarily sterilize all sexually active women who don’t want to be bothered with taking basic precautions to avoid birthin babies.

Tuberligation is reversible. Then the government can go all out and mandate liscencing to get reconnected…make them take tests to prove they are good liberals.

Under this program, we can save the planet a lot faster than with crap and traitor…in 2-3 generations the population will be so low we will be importing people with offers of mules and acres again.

BillaryMcBush on July 22, 2009 at 7:08 PM

I never signed any such order!

No, no, no, the legislation says nothing about you signing! Remember, everything will be computerized so we don’t have room for “signatures”. It only says the doctor will issue it in accordance with “your wishes” (which perhaps may or may not be expressed by you).

katablog.com on July 22, 2009 at 7:09 PM

Yes, we will have some kind of health care bill. If we can regain the Senate and the Hosue in 2010, can we vote it out?

davidk on July 22, 2009 at 7:09 PM

why not government funded and mandated tuberligation

Sorry, the Science Czar prefers just putting it in the water.

katablog.com on July 22, 2009 at 7:09 PM

But don’t forget conservative views on abortion are what lose us the ‘moderate’ and ‘independent’ voters!!!eleventy!!!11one!!111.

For some reason I doubt we’re going to hear reports in the media from ‘concerned moderate independents’ about how the Democrats are dogmatic and a closed tent and cannot hope to survive if they keep alienating moderates with their extreme views…

gwelf on July 22, 2009 at 7:09 PM

Yes, we will have some kind of health care bill. If we can regain the Senate and the Hosue in 2010, can we vote it out?

How do your rebuild 15% of the economy after the democrats have destroyed it?

katablog.com on July 22, 2009 at 7:10 PM

Under government health care we would probably see a great resurgence of natural child birth, though. The increase in c-sections is due to lawsuits and since you won’t be able to sue, there is no need for them anymore. In fact, they might ban them altogether and if you do have a condition that might require a c-section and die in childbirth, oh well.

crosspatch on July 22, 2009 at 7:12 PM

davidk on July 22, 2009 at 7:07 PM

Did Guard time at McConnell. Weapons builder. Luckily, in my active time I wasn’t stationed at McConnell.

FlyoverJ-HawkFan on July 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM

“No, no, no, the legislation says nothing about you signing!”

Actually, you are correct. It doesn’t!

crosspatch on July 22, 2009 at 7:14 PM

crosspatch at 7:08

So THAT’S how Obama intends to get out of Walpin’s lawsuit!

justincase on July 22, 2009 at 7:14 PM

I hope Pelosi is just being her usual dishonest self when she says she has the votes.

For all those people who said there was no difference between Republicans and Democrats, I suggest you think about Pelosi vs Pence…

Terrye on July 22, 2009 at 7:15 PM

Wait a minute - I seem to remember some blog yelling that ObamaCare would cover abortion – no doubt about it.

corona on July 22, 2009 at 7:16 PM

I hope Pelosi is just being her usual dishonest self when she says she has the votes.

For all those people who said there was no difference between Republicans and Democrats, I suggest you think about Pelosi vs Pence…

Terrye on July 22, 2009 at 7:15 PM

Botox infected her brain. She is lying like a rug as usual. Believe it, it comes easy for her.

FlyoverJ-HawkFan on July 22, 2009 at 7:16 PM

gwelf:

I know people who consider themselves moderate on a lot of issues but who do not support federal funding for abortion.

Terrye on July 22, 2009 at 7:17 PM

Flyover:

Maybe they are lying to her. You know, just telling her what she wants to hear so that she will take her talons out of them.

Terrye on July 22, 2009 at 7:18 PM

My Dem Rep is holding this up….hmmmm.
A blind squirrel eventually finds his nuts…

HornetSting on July 22, 2009 at 6:38 PM

You are on a roll tonight, Hornet….

paragon27x on July 22, 2009 at 7:18 PM

1. The vast majority of people without insurance today will be insured on this date next year. Most are “between policies” because they are “between jobs”. A COBRA subsidy would cover these people without government taking over health care.

2. Most of the remaining people without health care are illegal immigrants and other nonresident aliens. Their home country should be billed for their care.

3. Most the those who yet remain are either families of prisoners or chronically unemployed. There should probably be a government program for those people.

4. Of those that yet remain, nearly all have access to medical insurance but refuse it for whatever reason. Sucks to be them.

We don’t NEED a government program.

crosspatch on July 22, 2009 at 7:18 PM

Terrye on July 22, 2009 at 7:17 PM

You want dissent? Let people know that their tax dollars are paying for abortion. This will tip the boat, trust me.

FlyoverJ-HawkFan on July 22, 2009 at 7:19 PM

The cliff notes version of the House bill” Abort the unborn, kill the old, save the money for redistribution to our Democrat voters.

What’s more profound than turning the USA into NAZI Germany?

tarpon on July 22, 2009 at 7:19 PM

and if you do have a condition that might require a c-section and die in childbirth, oh well.

No, actually under ObamaControl, that’s a good thing because it’s one less person to cover.

katablog.com on July 22, 2009 at 7:20 PM

Yes, we will have some kind of health care bill. If we can regain the Senate and the Hosue in 2010, can we vote it out?

davidk on July 22, 2009 at 7:09 PM

I have wondered the same thing myself.

Terrye on July 22, 2009 at 7:20 PM

You want dissent? Let people know that their tax dollars are paying for abortion. This will tip the boat, trust me.

FlyoverJ-HawkFan on July 22, 2009 at 7:19 PM

I have thought that might well be true myself.

Terrye on July 22, 2009 at 7:21 PM

ready for a margarita?

cmsinaz on July 22, 2009 at 6:28 PM

I want.

Mommypundit on July 22, 2009 at 7:22 PM

I am someone with personal experiences with abortion protesters. Trust me, if this bill passes with mandated federally funded abortions, this will be the tipping point that a lot of us are looking for.

FlyoverJ-HawkFan on July 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM

Terrye, from my earlier posts based on personal experiences, this would drive people from being pissed to being really active.

FlyoverJ-HawkFan on July 22, 2009 at 7:26 PM

Yes, we will have some kind of health care bill. If we can regain the Senate and the Hosue in 2010, can we vote it out?

davidk on July 22, 2009 at 7:09 PM
I have wondered the same thing myself.

Terrye on July 22, 2009 at 7:20 PM

The provisions of the bill don’t take effect until 2013 or so, except for the taxes.

So, yes, it’s possible to simply (haha!) rescind the bill, provided a super-majority is available.

BobMbx on July 22, 2009 at 7:31 PM

BobMbx:

Good.

Terrye on July 22, 2009 at 7:35 PM

Wait a minute – I seem to remember some blog yelling that ObamaCare would cover abortion – no doubt about it.

corona on July 22, 2009 at 7:16 PM

In the end? It will.

Even if no Government money is used on abortions, the “Board” that decides what all Insurance will cover, will mandate they cover abortions.

And since everyone will have insurance… abortions will be covered.

Romeo13 on July 22, 2009 at 7:39 PM

Democratic Rep. Bart Stupak said he is “optimistic” that his campaign to include explicit language condemning the use of federal funds for abortion

It appears that all they’re asking for is a sharply worded message against abortion; they’re not asking that abortion funding be prohibited.

Buy Danish on July 22, 2009 at 8:04 PM

Yes, we will have some kind of health care bill. If we can regain the Senate and the Hosue in 2010, can we vote it out?

davidk on July 22, 2009 at 7:09 PM
I have wondered the same thing myself.

Terrye on July 22, 2009 at 7:20 PM
The provisions of the bill don’t take effect until 2013 or so, except for the taxes.

So, yes, it’s possible to simply (haha!) rescind the bill, provided a super-majority is available.

Part of the muddle the Republican Party has right now, is that dozens of Republican politicians wouldn’t touch that with a ten foot pole even if they had the White House and both chambers of Congress.

Chris_Balsz on July 22, 2009 at 8:16 PM

Tuberligation is reversible.

BillaryMcBush on July 22, 2009 at 7:08 PM

Not only that but it’s not 100% either. My 37-year-old sister just found out that after eight years with hers she’s now pregnant.

Fortunately the baby’s fine (apparently it can cause ectopic pregnancies), but it was a huge surprise to family.

Esthier on July 22, 2009 at 9:08 PM

4. Of those that yet remain, nearly all have access to medical insurance but refuse it for whatever reason. Sucks to be them.

crosspatch on July 22, 2009 at 7:18 PM

Not really. Many of us are young and healthy and don’t need insurance. Speaking only for myself, I also have enough saved up should a serious emergency come up. I’d rather spend that money on a trip to Europe for several months, but that doesn’t mean it’s worth it for me to spend an extra $200 plus a month on something I don’t need.

And I agree, we dont’ need government health care. If I wanted insurance, I’d have it.

Esthier on July 22, 2009 at 9:12 PM

Wow–ever since very early Sunday morning when I wrote this post in my blog about everyone ignoring the abortion aspect of ObamaCare, everyone is talking about it!

jgapinoy on July 22, 2009 at 9:45 PM

Why should the Government pay for an abortion (linchpin of the putative Right to Privacy) when they won’t pay for the Speedmaster XL 165 printing press I need in order to exercise my right to Freedom of the Press?

unclesmrgol on July 22, 2009 at 10:14 PM

Well that’s certainly a problem. There was a link floating around earlier to someone who was reading the entire bill and highlighting key portions; this has got to be the worst bill in American history.

BadgerHawk on July 22, 2009 at 6:31 PM

I copied it and sent this out to all my friends.

___________________

Here’s pages 1 thr 499

from Fleckman
http://twitter.com/Fleckman

the bill is worse than you thought

This person has been reading the 1000 page house bill and posting it at Twitter.

Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman’s)

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill – THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill – YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

Pg 42 of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill – HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

Pg 58HC Bill – Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.

PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill – Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill – Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example – Translation 4 illegal aliens

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members – U Health care WILL b rationed

-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill – Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt Monop

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill – Doctors/ #AMA – The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyr w payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt prov. pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrdng 2 Govt will be taxed 2.5% of inc

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay)

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access 2 ALL Americans finan/pers recs

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC – “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax” Yes, it says that

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician svcs 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill – Doctors, doesnt matter what specialty u have, you’ll all be paid the same

PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr’s time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries

PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs

PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS – Cancer patients – welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals 4 what Govt deems preventable readmissions.

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!!

Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 – Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing

Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan

Pg 354 Sec 1177 – Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! WTF. My sis has down syndrome!!

Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy – Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone?

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life

Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends

Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An “adv. care planning consult” will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates

PG 429 Lines 10-12 “adv. care consultation” may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 – The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life

Pg 469 – Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN?

PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt in2 ur marriage

Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs

patrick neid on July 21, 2009 at 4:27 PM

luvstotango on July 22, 2009 at 11:58 PM

Here’s pages 500 thr 700 from Fleckman
http://twitter.com/Fleckman

Ok peeps thats it for today Pgs 500 to 700 of the HC Monstrosity

Pg 686-700 Increased Funding 2 Fight Waste, Fraud, and Abuse. LMAO!! U mean the Govt w an $18 mil website?

Pg 676-686 Govt will regulate hospitals in EVERY aspect of residency programs, incl. teaching hospitals.

PG 660-671 Doctors in Residency – Govt will tell U where ur residency will b, thus where u’ll live.

Pg 635 to 653 Physicians Payments Sunshine Provision – Govt wants to shine sunlight on Docs but not Govt.

PG 633 14-25/ 634 1-9 The Secretary may issue non-endorsed “Qual Measures” 4 Physician Svcs & Dialysis Svcs.

PG 633 14-25/ 634 1-9 The Secretary may issue non-endorsed “Qual Measures” 4 Physician Svcs & Dialysis Svcs.

Pg 632 Lines 14-25 The Govt may implement any “Quality measure” of HC Services as they see fit.

Pg 630 9-24/631 1-9 Those Multi-stake holder groups incl. Unions & groups like ACORN deciding HC quality.

Pg 628 Sec 1443 Govt will give “Multi-Stake Holders” Pre-Rule Making input in2 Selection of “Quality” Measures.

PG 624 “Quality” measures shall b designd to profile u including race, age, gender, place of residence, etc

PG 624 “Quality” measures shall b designd 2 assess outcomes & functional status of patients.

Pg 622 Lines 2-9 To pay 4 the Qual Standards Govt will xsfer $$ from 2 other Govt Trust Funds. More Taxes.

PG 621 Lines 20-25 Govt will define what Quality means in HC. Since when does Govt know about quality?

Page 620 Lines 1-9 The Govt will define, prioritize, and nationalize your Health Care Services.

PG 524 18-22 Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund set up. More taxes for ALL.

Page 520 Lines 1-8 Comparative Effectiveness Research Comm. will profile u based on race, gender, age, etc

PG 518 Lines 21-25 The Commission will have input from HC consumer reps – Can u say unions & ACORN?

Pg 508 Lines 6-21 Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission czar & czarinas formed.

PG 506 Lines 19-21 The Center will recommend policies that would allow for public access of data.

PG 504 Lines 15-19 The Center will allow ANY interested party to submit info 4 use. Like ACORN maybe?

Pg 504 Lines 6-10 The “Center” will collect data both pub & unpub (that means public & ur private info)

Pg 503 lines 21-25 Govt may secure data directly from any depart or agency of the US incl ur data

patrick neid on July 21, 2009 at 4:56 PM

luvstotango on July 22, 2009 at 11:58 PM

tuberligation

Sterilizing potatoes; that will help.

No french fries for you!

Hot Air commenters are an endless source of amusement.

B26354 on July 23, 2009 at 1:41 AM

See, this is the problem with the big tent mentality.

budorob on July 23, 2009 at 8:59 AM

Under this program, we can save the planet a lot faster than with crap and traitor…in 2-3 generations the population will be so low we will be importing people with offers of mules and acres again.

BillaryMcBush on July 22, 2009 at 7:08 PM
——
Last time I checked, there’s already a skew in population growth between areas where abortions are easy to get and areas where they’re not… favoring the so-called red states.

All this would do is to depopulate the cities a bit faster.

Not that I think it’s a bad idea…

Mew

acat on July 23, 2009 at 10:02 AM

Weren’t there about 50 liberal Representatives who were coming out against this bill because it didn’t go far enough? Take out abortion, and the liberals become even more disenchanted.

Mr. Rock, meet Mr. HardPlace.

MarkTheGreat on July 23, 2009 at 10:31 AM

Another case of abuse/misuse of the phrase “promote the general Welfare” of the Constitution. Promote means (according to the founding fathers) to create situations and an environment that allows the individual citizen to create their own welfare (wealth, health, and lifestyle). It does not mean provide everyone everything.

However, as a member of Boomer generation, in which a segment of society (Hippy Dippy, 60′s Peace, love and Just Do It) grew up with the ethical belief that government is required to provide everything I want, don’t require me to produce/provide anything, because what is yours is mine.

Thus, there is a large segment of society living at the pinnacle “Self Actualization” of Maslow’s Hirarch of needs, letting the government or U.S. to provide for their Physiological, safety, social, and esteem needs.

The result a Socialist/Communist state. We deserve better and must insist that these leeches have their feeding tube cut and begin taking care of themselves and their renewed productivity will promote their general welfare (well being/lifestyle).

MSGTAS on July 23, 2009 at 10:43 AM

How about mandatory birth control for those that are on welfare?

workingforpigs on July 23, 2009 at 11:39 AM

AP, the plan all along was to make the bill silent on abortion, just as with Medicare a few decades back. It was hoped that no one would spread the message fast enough to make a difference in the voting before the Dems crammed another crap sandwich down our throats.

It’s as good as over now for Obamacare.

cackcon on July 23, 2009 at 12:51 PM

President Obama is not worried about how this legislation is written up, because he knows that once it is passed it can slowly be changed into whatever they want it to be. This can be the camels nose in the tent, no problem.

SGinNC on July 23, 2009 at 12:59 PM

Oh, I’m sorry, no birth control for Welfare recipients, we must continue to birth more loosers that are in the system, or you may choose to have it sucked out on your governement insurance plan..

workingforpigs on July 23, 2009 at 3:45 PM

Oh, I’m sorry, no birth control for Welfare recipients, we must continue to birth more loosers that are in the system, or you may choose to have it sucked out on your governement insurance plan..

workingforpigs on July 23, 2009 at 3:45 PM

Let them buy the damned stuff themselves; it’s not that expensive, for crying out loud. Why the hell should I pay for it?

atheling on July 25, 2009 at 3:05 AM

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