Even blogger getting annoyed with atheists’ crap
posted at 8:56 pm on July 21, 2009 by Allahpundit
Hey, remember when one of the benefits of not following a religion was being spared that religion’s rituals? What’s next, Sunday atheist mass?
I might as well go back to the Church. At least there’s wine and music.
In a type of mock ceremony that’s now been performed in at least four states, a robed “priest” used a hairdryer marked “reason” in an apparent bid to blow away the waters of baptism once and for all. Several dozen participants then fed on a “de-sacrament” (crackers with peanut butter) and received certificates assuring they had “freely renounced a previous mistake, and accepted Reason over Superstition.”…
For mainline Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christians, baptism is commonly understood as a sign or means of grace and a covenant that God maintains even when humans turn away, said Laurence Stookey, professor emeritus of preaching and worship at Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington. He said “de-baptizers” misunderstand baptism when they caricature it as an attempt at magic.
Baptism “is a kind of adoption where you become a child of God, of the church and of the family,” Stookey said. “You can renounce your physical parents, (the church and God), but they cannot renounce you because you are their child. Anybody who makes fun of baptism probably hasn’t gone into it in enough depth to know that.”…
Public ceremonies to confer de-baptism, however, seem to be primarily an American phenomenon.
“I think a de-baptism ceremony (in Europe) would strike a lot of secularists and atheists as kind of pointless,” Evans said. “They would leave the ceremonies to the religious.”…
Meanwhile, organizers of de-baptisms are broadening their mockery to include other religions. At the American Atheists’ national convention in Atlanta last April, the de-baptism event included a dance where women in burqas stripped down to red-sequined leotards, according to Blair Scott, the group’s national affiliate director.
Coming soon: Atheists dressing in robes and scourging themselves as punishment for the sin of youthful religiosity. Exit question: Has the godless movement outlived its usefulness? Why, er, no.
Blowback
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I’m very distracted this morning…kids…breakfast….multiple tabs open…ahhhhhhhhh.
Mommypundit on July 22, 2009 at 7:39 AM
Isn’t that the “point”of the “Sunday atheist mass”. To try and convert people to atheism by trying to ridicule their beliefs in God.
What else would be the point in doing this.
Jeff from WI on July 22, 2009 at 7:41 AM
ever notice how atheists, who don’t believe in hell, mention hell ALL THE TIME????
looks like the truth hurts…
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 7:44 AM
no evidence huh? all those prophecies that have come true in the bible, like Israel exists, are just ‘interpretations’???
faith is NOT believing something that has no evidence, else why would Jesus bother with all those miracles??
this is what faith is….
Heb. 11:1-3 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 7:48 AM
Atheism is a religion. This is just more proof of that fact.
RadClown on July 22, 2009 at 7:51 AM
Can you be “converted” to atheism? I would think that the atheists are trying to get believers to denounce organized religion and join them in the selfish and hedonistic world of the non-believer.
highhopes on July 22, 2009 at 7:52 AM
I was raised in a Christian home, but went through an atheistic phase during college. I was thrilled to learn lots of arguments that all led to the same place — the belief that I could do whatever I pleased with impunity. Hey, we’re all just molecules that evolved into animals! If unicorns don’t exist, neither does God! Lots of famous thinkers don’t believe in God! Etc.
But why would believing that my life ultimately has no meaning, purpose or lasting value make me happy? Looking back now, grateful for Jesus’s payment for my sins on the cross, I see that my atheism was just rebellion against Him. The intellectual arguments against Him were rationalizations for my rebellion. I didn’t want there to be a God, because He would be on the throne, not I, and I didn’t want to have to answer to Him.
So, whenever I talk with an atheist who is thrilled to believe that there is no God who loves him/her, I see myself back in college. And I ask, “Why does it make you happy to believe that all that awaits you is death and decay?”
KyMouse on July 22, 2009 at 7:59 AM
Does AP even understand the concept of “offensive”? I am OK with his/her anonymous ascertain that he/she does not believe in God, since that is the ultimate freedom in a free society. I’m free to believe and AP is free to not believe. But this constant effort to stay in-your-face about this here on HA is wearing very, very thin. It makes it hard to enjoy the site when there is a principle here that is forever trying to insult those who have a different point of view on the issue. It is sort of like having flatulence and deciding that you are going to keep stinking up the place until everyone there gives in and decides that your flatulence is OK. It’s OK if you do it someplace else, but if you insist on always doing it where other people gather, you can expect some of them to not want to stay.
MikeA on July 22, 2009 at 8:02 AM
So I gotta ask…. What is the response you get to your question?
highhopes on July 22, 2009 at 8:10 AM
Wishing doesn’t make it so. The question is “Is there a god?”, not “wouldn’t it be cool if there were/weren’t a god?”.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 8:17 AM
“Faith is believing something you know ain’t true.”
–Mark Twain
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 8:22 AM
Most Christians I know, will probably just laugh this whole thing off. It’s a childish attempt at attention.
But do they really think it’s a good idea to piss off Muslims??
Keith_Indy on July 22, 2009 at 8:23 AM
It’s not just a good idea, it’s a mitzvah!
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 8:45 AM
I’m laughing, and also feeling a bit sad at those that so strongly believe their mischaracterizations about Christianity.
aelhues on July 22, 2009 at 8:46 AM
Don’t be silly! Hell is just a well-known descriptive word, such as when one says war is hell.
Heaven, on the other hand, I would agree should not be used by an Atheist.
OldEnglish on July 22, 2009 at 8:48 AM
Not so. What those idiots are playing around with is Anti-Theism – not the same thing.
OldEnglish on July 22, 2009 at 8:50 AM
My experience with most atheists is that they really have no understanding of religion.
There understanding of Christian theology is less than the average 3rd graders.
MarkTheGreat on July 22, 2009 at 9:10 AM
Because even that is better than giving the creator the worship and honor he deserves.
shick on July 22, 2009 at 9:12 AM
Much like your understanding of English grammar, it seems. They at least have an excuse, though–contra theology, grammar is a useful study of something that exists.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 9:16 AM
I find this particular brand of God Fearing Atheist who turn their non-belief into a religion for which they actively proselytize even more annoying than believers who do the same.
Stephen Macklin on July 22, 2009 at 9:54 AM
Allahpundit,
Good post. This scenario is a 180 of what’s going on Christian “churches” across the globe today. These atheists are emulating (though in jest) christian churches while christian churches are emulating (not in jest) the unbelieving world.
Sometimes you post atheist stuff that annoys us Christians. But you are a rare atheist conservative and have been graced with a fair amount of wisdom. Keep it up.
I have a liberal atheist friend who says all kinds of ridiculous stuff. He’s a super smart bio-statician too. But that doesn’t stop him from saying things like the “Passion” movie was anti-semitic.
Though you bug me sometimes, I’m glad you are with us.
shick on July 22, 2009 at 10:06 AM
Just for clarification: Anti is opposite to pro.
A- means not.
Therefore, an Atheist is not a Theist.
This is not the same as an Anti-Theist, which is a denying/rejection of God. One cannot deny that which, to an Atheist, does not exist.
On both sides, when one argues from a standpoint of inaccuracy, one loses.
OldEnglish on July 22, 2009 at 10:07 AM
My dear wife and infant daughter both died unexpectedly and I was left to raise our 6 year old son by myself. One of the first things I did was take him to group meetings at a Quaker hospice for families who have gone through similar tragedies. While there I met a woman and her young son who lost her husband. She and her husband were both atheists. I felt so bad for her because she was in such terrible emotional shape. Even though I was badly hurt, I had my faith to comfort me, where this woman had nothing to comfort her. Her husband was simply here today, gone tomorrow…vanished. Nothing made any sense to her.
My son has since grown up and moved out for college. My faith has been there many, many times to help me get through the tough times over the years. The simple fact that I was able to love my wife the way I did is enough for me to justify my faith.
I feel sorry for people who are, for various reasons, unable to have faith. I feel bad for the emptiness in their soul they carry within them. And I really don’t understand the need for some of them to go so far out of their way to mock and ridicule people of faith. Self pride and conceit have alot to do with it is my guess.
I can understand mocking religions, but not faith.
OxyCon on July 22, 2009 at 10:27 AM
The word in the New Testament that is translated as “faith” most often is the Greek word Pistis. It is a word used only in rhetorical arguments – Aristotle and Quintiallian both use the word in the same manner that the NT does, and Aristole even provides a definition of the word.
It DOES NOT mean belief in “something you know ain’t true”.
When used as a noun, it means “forensic proof”, and when used as a verb it means “trust based on evidence”. THis is why Hebrews 11:1-3 is followed by a laundry list of miracles that could be verified by common means at that time: eyewitnesses.
My friend JP Holding wrote the following article on the subject that you may find interesting: http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html
papabryant on July 22, 2009 at 10:31 AM
For a student of history, this worship of “reason” is eerily familiar. During the late 18th Century, French philosophers of the so-called Enlightenment (Age des Lumieres) held mock pagan ceremonies dedicated to the goddess of human reason–creating a “goddess” in and of their own minds to deny God. Since French royalty and nobility at the time was Catholic, and had perpetrated economic abuses on French peasants, the philosophers tried to conflate Catholicism with economic oppression, leading to the French Revolution, where the royalty was beheaded and Catholic priests and nuns were publicly tortured and killed. The French revolutionaries, once in power, had no real leader, and their human “reason” was neither divine nor reasonable–they turned on each other, supporters of various factions were butchered in the streets, in what is now called the Terror of 1794.
It may be easy for many people to dismiss “de-baptism” ceremonies as “crackers for crackpots”, but the French Revolution is a cruel reminder of the end-result of substituting worship of one’s own mind for worship of God. Blaise Pascal said that people have a God-shaped hole in their hearts that only God can fill, and those who deny God will seek something or someone else to fill their need. How many temples and pyramids were built throughout history to pagan gods and goddesses of the sun, the moon, and various human qualities? How many human beings were killed or “sacrificed” to such things, starting with the golden calf of Exodus 32? The natural human desire to worship someone or something greather than oneself can, if misguided, be extremely dangerous.
It has been said that the only certainties in life are death and taxes, and even Jesus said we should render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar (taxes). For that other certainty in life (death), belief in a God of love and eternity can be very comforting, and very reasonable.
Steve Z on July 22, 2009 at 10:42 AM
Actually Europe invented this sort of sacrilegious nonsense. It was a favorite pasttime of Peter the Great, with his Anti-Pope riding a dwarf holding crossed clay pipes. The Roman Church promoted annual festivals of this sort of rough theater.
Of course they had the sense to make the point of it as a rollicking, consequence-free drunk binge. They never imagined anything serious came of it, which is why it was tolerated.
But American atheists have never been very bright…
Chris_Balsz on July 22, 2009 at 10:50 AM
Every atheist who eventually wakes up and begins their spiritual journey will tell you the same thing:
They basically wanted to do various things that they knew were immoral so they tried to convince themselves that God does not exist.
Basically what it comes down to is, atheists are dishonest,weak and immoral people who lie to themselves and others.
Are the atheists who argue for atheism here so dense that they do not understand that atheism is purely a reactionary faith? When they eventually realize that atheism is purely a reactionary religion, they will finally know how stupid they have sounded during all this time they spent as atheists.
MaximusConfessor on July 22, 2009 at 10:55 AM
Agreed. It is unfortunate that just as there are many variations of belief in any given religion, there are offshoots of atheism that are developing into something that looks more similar to an anti-deity religion.
Case in point, look at Richard Dawkins’ ad campaign about there being no God last winter. If the man is truly an atheist, why bother? Instead he hates religion, and his hatred is developing into what looks like a religious fervor.
That is just one example, but it is a good illustration that regardless of belief, human nature is to develop religious zeal over that belief. It may be time to rename the anti-theist attention seeking groups as something other than atheist, but for now most are comfortable with that moniker.
Marine_Bio on July 22, 2009 at 11:02 AM
biblically, it also indicates ‘in place of’…as the antichrist will not just oppose Christ, but set himself up as a replacement for Christ.
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 11:08 AM
Hey AP as for your exit question, no one has actually been prosecuted for blasphemy in Ireland, and likely will not. As for the Islamic world…. different story.
But I doubt you will see any atheist missionaries going out to convert the unwashed heathen of the ME any time soon…of course that would be fun to watch.
LincolntheHun on July 22, 2009 at 11:10 AM
Is that true for most? Maybe pieces of your statement could be argued as true for my experience, but the majority of your assertion isn’t particularly accurate in my case. Coming to my former atheist belief system from a biology background, I had an “understanding” of the science. As with anything in life, the more you learn the more you realize you don’t know, and eventually I came to the understanding that the theory of evolution was fundamentally flawed. At the time I believed that the flaws were just pieces awaiting an appropriate explanation. However, there were always data that didn’t fit, which is a problem for any theory.
The awareness of the “lies”, or more appropriately, the assumptions you must hold to be true to have an atheist belief system came with time. Spiritual awakening came along a different path.
Just be aware that by categorically stating:
you are making statements that are just as irrational
Marine_Bio on July 22, 2009 at 11:29 AM
The author of Hebrews was not himself an eyewitness to the events, nor was it likely he personally knew anyone who was. As for my part, I’ve never met the author of Hebrews, and I have no basis on which to trust his hypothetical eyewitness testimony, much less his transcription of hearsay based on hearsay regarding alleged eyewitnesses to alleged events.
What might have been divine revelation to the persons allegedly present for the alleged miracles is, by the time it gets to me fourth-hand, simple rumor-mongering and gossip. (How do you feel about the accounts of angels visiting Muhammad and Joseph Smith?) Thomas Paine discusses this subject at length in The Age of Reason.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 11:39 AM
And atheists wonder why many people think they’re a joke? Give up the whining about people telling you that “you’ll go tho Hell for your non-belief. If you don’t believe in an after -life who cares where believers think you’re going? Quit whining about how Nativity scenes infringe on your “rights.” I’ve never seen a sheep or a shepherd from a creche run out and knock anyone down. If some evil parent got you sprinkled with water when you were an infant – don’t worry – God probably doesn’t want you either.
katiejane on July 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM
They brainwashed you pretty good, didn’t they?
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 11:42 AM
Actually it is a completetely reasonable and rational statement taking into consideration the reasons and presuppositions in place as to why they become atheists in the first place..
“Every atheist who eventually wakes up and begins their spiritual journey will tell you the same thing:
They basically wanted to do various things that they knew were immoral so they tried to convince themselves that God does not exist”. This fundamentally implies that they are dishonest,weak and immoral.
Let’s not kid ourselves and pretend that atheists are seekers of truth. They are a completely reactionary,arrogant and fanatical faith.
Not even agnostics can claim to be seekers of truth. They are intentionally blindfolded and disinterested bystanders at best.
MaximusConfessor on July 22, 2009 at 11:56 AM
Quakers, one of the most under-rated religions in the world. Perhaps in the past 100 years, have had a larger impact then most any other church, and doing it the “right” way. Without promoting what they have done behind the scenes in some of the most political sensitive negotiations in the 20th century.
Truly a remarkable group of people.
right2bright on July 22, 2009 at 11:59 AM
The fact is, atheism should be virulently opposed by all rational societies.
Atheism when allowed to come to it’s only logical conclusion, has been proven to be the most dangerous,murderous and genocidal forms of society that the world has ever seen.
Atheists have been responsible for the largest genocides the world has ever seen.
American atheists are extremely ignorant and one of the things they fail to realize is that in almost every part of the world, when one mentions they are an atheist, people will automatically assume that they are hardcore leftists and communist. American atheists are ignorant and do not realize that communism is the only logical conclusion of atheism.
MaximusConfessor on July 22, 2009 at 12:03 PM
and how do you know this, given that no one knows for sure who the author of Hebrews was???
As far as miracles, notice Jesus would not give a sign to the pharisees, except for His own resurrection, and in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, when the rich man begged to go back to warn his brothers, Abraham told him ‘they have the law and the prophets, if they do not believe them, neither will they believe a man rising from the dead’
which sums it up pretty well.
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Silly sod!
OldEnglish on July 22, 2009 at 12:16 PM
When you can’t refute someone’s argument the only thing left to do is resort to personal insults.
MaximusConfessor on July 22, 2009 at 12:32 PM
If the author of that particular epistle is anonymous/unknown, then that makes the account contained therein fifth-hand hearsay.
Your argument, then, is aimed not at me, but at papabryant on July 22, 2009 at 10:31 AM, who said, “When [the Greek word translated as faith is] used as a noun, it means “forensic proof”, and when used as a verb it means “trust based on evidence”.” I agree with you that there never was any forensic proof for the claims in the New Testament. Thus, my quotation of Mark Twain—”Faith is believing something you know ain’t true”—still stands.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 12:33 PM
Touché.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 12:34 PM
The difference is, I have provided refutations. The things you find “insulting” are simply the factual and logical conclusions of the atheists motivations and belief systems.
MaximusConfessor on July 22, 2009 at 12:45 PM
I don’t waste my time talking to brick walls, but if you insult me, I’ll insult you back.
OldEnglish on July 22, 2009 at 12:46 PM
Go ahead and insult me without providing refutations of my arguments.
It only proves that you have lost the debate.
MaximusConfessor on July 22, 2009 at 12:49 PM
No, you haven’t!. All you’ve done is spew a theocratic mantra, taken from a book written by humans. You have no facts.
OldEnglish on July 22, 2009 at 12:49 PM
Funny here how everyone likes to stereotype “atheist”.
Ignorance.
By the way I lean towards Pantheism. But there are many branches of that even.
jsunrise on July 22, 2009 at 12:55 PM
What belief systems? What, exactly, do I believe? Tell me, please–I’d love to know!
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 12:56 PM
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 12:56 PM
having “discussed” this topic a few time with you I can state with confidence that in matters of religion you believe in NOTHING… but mockery for those with a belief system.
LincolntheHun on July 22, 2009 at 1:03 PM
no evidence huh? all those prophecies that have come true in the bible, like Israel exists, are just ‘interpretations’???
Yes, as in empiracle evidence used in “scientific method” when developing theory. It goes in 3 steps, theory, working theory and accepted theory.
Attempts to dovetail a 10 headed hydra into the EU, which was often cited before the EU’s expansion to the current 27, as an example of “it was prophesized” and thus proof.
Nor does the collectivist tilt towards a global, one world government demonstrate any level of prescience. Every tyrant and empire in recorded history has attempted to all the known peoples of the world under their rule at the time. That future despots would act accordingly is not some great foresight, but common sense.
To use biblical prophesy a proof of anything is ridiculous. This is demonstrated in multiple sects, using identical texts, to arrive at completely differing conclusions. Conclusions used to justify all manner of heinous activities. As an example one could to say, the Papists & the Proddies in Ireland.
2+2 is evidence of 4, every time and in every way, when dealing with facts to arrive at truth there can only be 1 answer. And do not blather on about scientists disagreeing about this or that, this is the discourse necessry to ferret out facts, see the 3 steps of theory above.
If religionists wish base their lives upon primitive Bronze Age conceptualizations, that is fine by me. I do not insist that they see the world as I do. History is replete with them not according others this respect. The tripe regarding Stalin & Hitler as atheists imposing their veiw, doesn’t hold water. Just as Eco-facists do today, they used flawed/perverted science to foist their will in what amounts to tyrannical imposition of rigid doctrines brooking no dissent in the manner of the converted.
In so doing they become a religion. Atheists that become dogmatic and militant are no less guilty.
The similarity of religionsts, be they ideologically or theologically based is seen is demonstrated by their requirements. Sacrifice and Service.
Ayn Rand spoke to this eloquently when she said;
“just listen to any prophet and if you hear him speak of sacrifice-run. Run faster than from a plague. It stands to reason that where there’s sacrifice, there’s someone collecting sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there’s someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master.”
Archimedes on July 22, 2009 at 1:06 PM
its unknown to *us* the author very likely was known to the early church….sigh…..
I think you need a logic 101 class if you think I agree with you…..oh and one of the founders of the Harvard Law School disagrees with your assessment of the proof of the resurrection.
link
so your quote is typical atheist talking points…meaningless….
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 1:06 PM
I don’t recall having discussed this with you–it must have been a while ago.
It is not true that I believe in nothing. I do not get into what I do believe here, though, because I am not trying to convert others to my beliefs–I am simply trying to de-convert theists from theirs. The question of whether my beliefs are correct is completely separate from the question of whether yours are.
It is true that I do believe in mocking those with a belief system–this is because most belief systems are too absurd to be taken seriously. I only pick on Christians on this blog because they are a target of opportunity–if most people here were Hindus, or astrologers, or Atkins dieters, I’d be giving them grief instead.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 1:12 PM
Wow. Who have you tangled with?
I think you missed my point, so I will try to clarify. There is a fundamental misunderstanding that occurs in discussions of atheism and faith. That is that there are the true atheists, who are a smaller group, that are frequently more academic in their thought processes, and there are others who call themselves atheist but have a developed religious fervor for attacking all things related to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in particular but all other religions are fair game as well. Your underlying assumptions are that all atheists are the same and all chose to be atheist to justify their actions by removing the divine morality by which their actions are measured. These are not valid assumptions in a categorical definition.
The group I label as “atheists” would probably meet your assumption. Many of them have elevated the theories of science to the position of God, and have not kept the proper perspective. These would be typified by the folks who protest over nativity scenes being in state capital buildings, protest the Ten Commandments being displayed in a courthouse or raise their children to be angry at Christmas time. These are not as much “atheists”, as much as anti-religion.
I was an atheist. I didn’t care if you wanted to celebrate Christmas, Chanukah, Ramadan or the festival of watching paint dry. I thought you were wrong, but there was no impact to the gene pool if you chose to believe these things, so you could knock yourself silly as far as I was concerned. I was comfortable with the Ten Commandments being on any federal or state building because I was comfortable with that being the cultural heritage of our founding fathers. I wasn’t concerned with things of morality aside from abiding by the laws of the land to avoid breaking laws.
I am a Biologist, and had I developed the religious fervor of Richard Dawkins, would have been in the priesthood of “atheism” as he is. I never developed the religious fervor, and kept the proper perspective of a theory. (i.e. it could be wrong.)
That developed religious fervor is the core of the “atheist” actions like the one that precipitated this post. If you watch Ben Stein’s documentary, Expelled, you can get a feel for this dynamic. Just watch the fervor of the “atheists” demagogue a competing theory with evolution, Intelligent Design, as religion. The major problem with this is that the supporters of Intelligent Design range from true atheists to Zoroastrian. Supporters of evolution are almost exclusively “atheists”. Very informative, but you have to step back and observe the pattern.
The premise of your argument applies to those outside of the true atheist definition, and more to the humanistic, “atheists”. If there are clearly cases that don’t line up with your definitions and premises, then your argument comes across as irrational.
Marine_Bio on July 22, 2009 at 1:13 PM
so Israel existing and Iran as its primary enemy, as foretold is just ‘coincidence’?? right, and when else in history has this been the case?
BTW ever hear of the western european union?? guess how many countries that has….
oh of course, every atheist wants to rule the world!! please…and that whole thing about a global economy and monetary system…yeah everyone has always wanted that…sure….
just like you want to live your life by some atheist fairy tale called evolution…a racist eugenicist theory. unfortunately your atheist ‘theories’ communism, and darwinism have led to the slaughtering of hundreds of millions, and the enslavement of countless others.
oh of course not, atheists can do no wrong, by definition, because they are their own little gods, and whatever they is right!!
get a clue, evolution is inherently racist and eugenicist…hitler was just applying evolution. as was sanger.
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 1:13 PM
but not muslims, and we all know why….
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 1:14 PM
Using basic and simple logic, I have proven that atheism is an irrational,nonsensical and purely reactionary faith.
Using simple and basic logic, I have proven that God exists,that God is a Holy Trinity,and that Orthodox Christianity is the True religion of this God.
If you were intellectually honest you would admit that your atheistic ideas do not hold up and you would reject them.
But then again atheists(being purely reactionary religious adherants) have never been known for being intellectually honest..
MaximusConfessor on July 22, 2009 at 1:14 PM
1) Twain wasn’t an atheist.
2) What is your Greenleaf story, if not a quotation of “typical Christianist talking points”?
3) Greenleaf assumed that the persons who wrote the four Gospels were actually Matt., Mark, Luke, and John. They weren’t. The Gospels are a generations-after-the-fact transcription of an oral tradition that may or may not have originated with actual eye-witnesses.
4) Of course the Church, when they edited the Gospels for inclusion in the approved Bible, tried to edit them for internal consistency–Greenleaf’s conclusion was inevitable given his flawed approach to the question.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 1:18 PM
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 1:12 PM
Thank you for admitting you are a Troll. You have nothing useful to add to a debate, and only try and bait others into anger.
I would thing such a life would leave one a bitter twisted person.
Perhaps you should pray for some guidance and support.
LincolntheHun on July 22, 2009 at 1:20 PM
Because there aren’t any muslims here–that’s why. Mohammed was just another charismatic liar who preached to the gullible, no different from David Koresh. (Happy now?)
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 1:20 PM
doesn’t matter…that quote of his is typical atheist talking points.
I would bet you never heard of greenleaf before I mentioned him, so I don’t think it qualified as ‘talkking points’..nice try.
and you know this…why? because you say so?? please. people like you said the same thing about the book of daniel…more talking points…
yes its all conspiracy!!! just like dan brown said!!! and yes what would one of the founders of the harvard law school know about things like this??? sigh….
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 1:23 PM
oh yes, and we see brave atheists like Dawkins standing up to them all the time…sure.
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 1:23 PM
I’m neither bitter nor twisted, thanks. If you met me in person you’d think I was a Christian until and unless I told you otherwise (and I likely wouldn’t tell you otherwise, unless you brought it up and were obnoxious about it).
I should pray to whom? There are so many non-existent gods to choose from! How does one decide such things?
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 1:24 PM
I always find it amusing to see atheists copying christian morals, mores, etc…since they can come up with nothing better…and then turn around and belittle the author of these morals…
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 1:26 PM
So what if it is? It’s a very believable conspiracy (much more believable, in fact, than the conspiracy theory that all scientists are engaged in a satanist cabal to destroy faith through a bogus theory of natural selection).
Dawkins doesn’t speak for me, nor I for him. If you want an example of a prominent atheist who does stand up to Muslims, look no further than Hitchens.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 1:28 PM
so Israel existing and Iran as its primary enemy, as foretold is just ‘coincidence’?? right, and when else in history has this been the case?
Coincidence, not at all. Common sense yes.
If historically peoples are hostile and intolerant of each other for 1000′s of years, it would be highly probabale that we would find the in the same condition 1000′s of years later. It is akin to predicting that, in the future, fish would be found in water.
Archimedes on July 22, 2009 at 1:29 PM
My “belief system” comes from secular philosophy. I’m a better person than most Christians, and it is only their own chauvinism that leads them to suppose I am one of them.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 1:30 PM
oh of course it is!! and they can’t listen to your thoughts as long as you keep that tin-foil on!!
and yes darwinism and communism are both atheistic theories with the same goal in mind…get rid of christianity.
if he stood up to them like say Van Gogh did, he’d be dead.
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 1:30 PM
of course you are!! since you are the judge (god)
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 1:31 PM
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 1:24 PM
I notice you did not deny being a troll.
Yes there are many nonexistent gods, I would avoid praying to them if I were you. If you really want to learn the first thing you have to accept is that the universe does not revolve around you. Very hard concept for some especially the uber-hip nihilistic atheist crowd. So you would have to leave the douchebaggery behind, or at least try Catholics tend to be forgiving people.
LincolntheHun on July 22, 2009 at 1:31 PM
you do know it was the persian empire that let the jews return to the land and rebuilt their temple and society after the babylonian captivity??
so there was no hostility…until Islam rose up…
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 1:32 PM
My “belief system” comes from secular philosophy. I’m a better person than most Christians, and it is only their own chauvinism that leads them to suppose I am one of them.hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 1:30 PM
As a fellow atheist I find this statement highly distasteful and exemplary of the intolerence of the faithful. In doing so you’re the antithesis of “better”. You become what you mock.
Archimedes on July 22, 2009 at 1:38 PM
Conspiracies exist. Ever heard of the Mafia? Some conspiracies are believable and/or supported by credible evidence; some are not believable and/or are refuted by credible evidence. What is so incredible about the idea that a group of self-anointed religious leaders decided to delude an ignorant, superstitious people for their own personal gain? If you’re a Christian, then you already believe in, for instance, a conspiracy of the Sanhedrin to discredit Jesus’ divinity.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 1:39 PM
Not if I don’t make this statement to the people who know me in person, I don’t. Virtue is its own reward–I certainly don’t need to be sanctimonious about it.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 1:41 PM
Using basic and simple logic, I have proven that atheism is an irrational,nonsensical and purely reactionary faith.
Using simple and basic logic, I have proven that God exists,that God is a Holy Trinity,and that Orthodox Christianity is the True religion of this God.
If you were intellectually honest you would admit that your atheistic ideas do not hold up and you would reject them.
But then again atheists(being purely reactionary religious adherants) have never been known for being intellectually honest..
MaximusConfessor on July 22, 2009 at 1:14 PM
This statement is beyond irrational, it is meglomaniacle.
By stating this you take on the trappings of being god. ” God said let there be….. and it was so”.
Get a grip dude. You demonstrate the certainty of the simple.
The discourse in this thread has deteriorated past all intellectual value, as an Objectivist I seek value and will migrate to more fertile pastures.
Maximus you should seek help before you commit some heinous act, you’re bordering on dangerous.
Archimedes on July 22, 2009 at 1:48 PM
That isn’t exactly true. Descendants of Ishmael and Essau are clearly identified in Genesis as having ingrained hostility towards the descendants of Israel.
However Islam took it up a notch. Islam believes they claim the inheritance of Abraham through Ishmael, and that Israel stole the promise of God.
Marine_Bio on July 22, 2009 at 1:49 PM
Wait. Are you trying to say that evolution would disprove the existence of God and would disprove Christianity?
LOL!
You are even more ignorant than I thought.
Even if evolution were to be proven definitvely, it would not impact Orthodox Christianity whatsoever.
Yes it might impact certain protestant breakaway groups, but not the True and original form of Christianity(the Orthodox Church).
Truth and God do not run contrary to each other. GOD IS TRUTH!
If you knew anything about Orthodox Christianity, you would know that the book of genesis was never intended to be a scientific text. There is a much deeper meaning.
It’s almost funny(if it wasn’t so sad) that you(an ignorant atheist who knows nothing about Christianity)claim to know what the correct interpretations of the Holy Scriptures are. And even more so that you are so ignorant that you think the protestant interpretations represent the historic interpretations held by the Church Christ founded.
Regardless, now that you know this you’re going to have to stop using this as an excuse to justify your irrational religion of atheism. It doesn’t hold up as a rebuttal of Christianity.
MaximusConfessor on July 22, 2009 at 1:52 PM
you do know it was the persian empire that let the jews return to the land and rebuilt their temple and society after the babylonian captivity??
so there was no hostility…until Islam rose up…
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 1:32 PM
Check your history, prior to Cyrus there was indeed hostility. The Persian empire was (like all others) established by conquest. Conquest bespeaks violence, violence equals hostility.
Of course, this is an exeption, not the rule. With Gorby and Yeltsin we had the respite of glasnost, with Putin we are right back where we started.
Archimedes on July 22, 2009 at 1:56 PM
You’re the only wacko here who alleges that you’re the only christian here. A rebuttal of the many outweighs a rebuttal of the few–other people may feed your trolling; I won’t.
P.S. I’m still waiting for you to tell me what it is I believe.
I am not nihilistic, and I am certainly not “über-hip”–I’m quite the nerd, actually. I am not an atheist to follow the crowd; I am an atheist because I have integrity—I will neither believe something I know ain’t true, nor disbelieve something I know is true, to please others.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 2:06 PM
Atkins? you lost me there, I was with you till that. Are you lumping a ketogenic diet along with these “belief systems”?
Ahhh forget it, everyone is ignorant and biased (redundant)? about something.
jsunrise on July 22, 2009 at 2:07 PM
I doubt you noticed the irony in your statement, but the Catholic Church persecuted more than a few Copernicans for believing that very thing.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 2:08 PM
Highhopes, the answer I usually get is along the lines of “My happiness comes from knowing that I’m smart enough not to be deluded by fairy tales written by morons.” Variations on that theme still contain the key ingredients of arrogance and contempt. If you want to see some prime examples, visit Edwin Kagin’s Web site.
Hicsuget, you’re misunderstanding my question. I ask atheists what the source of their deep, abiding joy in life is. As a believer in Jesus, my joy comes from knowing that He loves me so much that He took the punishment that I deserve for my sins, and that through His gift I’m going to spend eternity with the God who created me.
But if you and I are merely accidents of nature, pointless masses of molecules that one day will die and decay, joy is hard to find outside of temporal pleasures. Proud of your intellect? Alzheimer’s or an accident can end that. And unless you’ve done something spectacular (good or bad) with your life, even your relatives won’t remember more about you than your name in a couple of generations.
Does the belief that one is smarter than others — some atheists call themselves “Brights” — provide much comfort during times of hardship, long-term illness or personal tragedy? In the 2007 book Parenting Beyond Belief, a Unitarian minister recommended telling a child, “No, honey, Grandpa won’t come for Christmas. He died and is dead for always.” So, I ask again, where does the deep, abiding joy of atheism come from?
Edwin Kagin, whom I mentioned above, was instrumental in establishing Camp Quest for children of atheists. I wonder, if a camper is notified that a loved one has died, what do the counselors tell him/her? “We’re very sorry. But you have to understand that Grandma was only a mass of molecules, and now they will rot. The same thing will happen to you some day.”
If I really believed that there is no God who loves me and has made a way (Jesus’ sacrificial death) for me to be forgiven for all of the rotten things I’ve thought, said and done; and that everything in my life is ultimately pointless because life itself is pointless and accidental, I’d be very sad.
As it is, however, I believe that Jesus proved his bona fides by rising from the dead. Very few atheists I know are willing to examine what He said and what his disciples wrote about Him. Christians often admit that they have had a “dark night of the soul,” in which they have wondered about the existence of God. When that happens to me, I “seek His face” through prayer and Bible-reading.
I can’t remember when I’ve heard an atheist say, “I’ve been wondering if God really might exist.” No, they never seem to have any doubt — they’re absolutely, one-million-percent sure. That’s how hard they’re running away from Him.
KyMouse on July 22, 2009 at 2:11 PM
That is a remarkably stupid statement. One doesn’t have to believe in a religion to find the study of its belief system valuable–indeed, important.
One doesn’t have to believe in Buddhism, for example, to see the value in studying the belief system of 600,000,000 around the world, and the impact of that belief system on human history.
DRPrice on July 22, 2009 at 2:13 PM
I am opposed to all irrational stupidity, not just to the irrational stupidity that calls itself religion. People practicing the Atkins diet don’t impact my life as much as people practicing Christianity and Islam do, so I don’t complain much about them, but I still think they’re fools.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 2:14 PM
Are you admitting that atheism is false because there are only a few atheists throughout all of the world?
it is now extremely obvious that I am debating with a teenage child..Oh well.
Regardless of that, please do tell me how you KNOW there is no God. Also, please do tell me how that statement does not just prove the depth of your ignorance and arrogance..For instance have you searched the depths of reality and the universe and are you aware of all things?
MaximusConfessor on July 22, 2009 at 2:15 PM
Integrity the adherence to a code of moral values. Christianity establishes the Bible as its code. Upon what do you establish yours that makes atheism superior?
Psalm 14:1-6
.
GT on July 22, 2009 at 2:20 PM
Fools? WOW OK. LOL Good Luck!
jsunrise on July 22, 2009 at 2:23 PM
From Paine, The Age of Reason:
I never saw him do it. Did you?
I was raised by fundamentalist christians. I was a true believer for many years. I know exactly what the gospels say–I had to memorize them both in church and at the parochial school I attended. Nice try.
Those people are called “agnostics.” I think they lack the integrity to pick a side and defend it. We become atheists once we’re done wondering. I do not, for instance, still wonder if Santa Claus really might exist, even though it’d be pretty cool if he did.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 2:24 PM
I said nothing of the sort. I said it is more worth my time to rebut the beliefs of everyone else than it is to try to rebut yours.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 2:27 PM
I’m not getting into that, but I will say that it is not atheism as such that is superior–it is the particular philosophy I have chosen that is superior. There are more than a few atheistic philosophies that are inferior, morally speaking, to Christianity.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 2:29 PM
You’ve made the implication quite clear that your “belief” is superior because of your “integrity”. Where is the integrity in copping out?
GT on July 22, 2009 at 2:35 PM
I’m not here to evangelize (Saint Maximus is doing enough of that for everyone); I’m here to de-evangelize. When I try to get a law passed outlawing criticism of my beliefs, we can begin to discuss them.
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 2:38 PM
Exactly as I said. Yours is a REACTIONARY faith. You reacted to and rejected the false teachings of a sectarian and non apostolic form of christianity and you have never even learned the teachings of the actual Christian Church.
In your ignorance you have rejected Christianity in general becuase you came out of a counterfeit version of it and instead you have chosen the even more irrational and ridiculous faith of atheism.
At least you realize you are defending an indefensible position. Just as I said you lack intellectual honesty.
Really I feel more sorry for you now than anything else. You are such a sad and bitter person.
MaximusConfessor on July 22, 2009 at 2:39 PM
Tranlation: I can’t answer such a simple question.
.
GT on July 22, 2009 at 2:45 PM
So, whenever I talk with an atheist who is thrilled to believe that there is no God who loves him/her, I see myself back in college. And I ask, “Why does it make you happy to believe that all that awaits you is death and decay?”
KyMouse on July 22, 2009 at 7:59 AM
I am no more “thrilled” by it than I am of the recognition of Iran’s pursuit of the bomb. It is just the acceptance of probability supported by evidence. I accept that, while minimal, there is a possibility of god, but in the face of all else immensely unlikely.
Futhermore death is merely an end, not unlike the final pages of a good book. Enjoy the summation while you can.
Along the lines of “everything in moderation”, I cannot fathom how an eternal never ending existence is even remotely appealing. Especially one as biblically described, without need…the mother of invention, without challenge as all is taken care of by grace of god. Without any purpose.
Again I cannot but note the similarities between collectivists and religionists. One begs sacrifice and service in this life for rewards in the hear-after, the other for rewards in a utopian promise that never arrives. It reminds me of the line…I’ll gladly pay you tuesday for a hamburger today.
Archimedes on July 22, 2009 at 2:47 PM
So you’re willing to criticize the beliefs of others, i.e. Maximus, but are unwilling to discuss the fundamental philosophy of your beliefs which you assert as superior.
I’m detecting the stench of hypocrisy.
Marine_Bio on July 22, 2009 at 2:48 PM
hicsuget on July 22, 2009 at 2:08 PM
Copernicus?
60 years after his death the Catholic Church altered or removed 9 sentences from a reprint of his book.
Boy of boy that was some serious persecution. Damn you are right there!
But hey if you standard is “if in the distant past some one of the same creed as I did something wrong then the entire belief system is indefensible” then I guess you will be disavowing atheism for its many atrocities (Soviets and Chinese).
I and the rest of HotAir will await your groveling apology.
LincolntheHun on July 22, 2009 at 2:54 PM
why don’t you enlighten us on this hostility? by the time the medeo-persian empire was established by overthrowing babylon, israel was no more.
right4life on July 22, 2009 at 2:55 PM
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