A brief lesson on markets and rationing
posted at 11:41 am on July 21, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Howard Kurtz takes a quick look at the debate over Ted Kennedy’s op-ed piece in Newsweek. Kurtz offers a mild criticism of Bill Kristol’s response. Howard’s response is almost a throwaway, but it underscores a gap in understanding the issue of health-care “reform”:
Kristol is back with this piece, attacking Ted Kennedy’s Newsweek cover:
“Sen. Kennedy has weighed in, and he may have helped doom Obamacare.
“For Kennedy and his co-author, Bob Shrum, have let the rationing cat out of the bag. And that’s a problem for President Obama and the Democrats. Make no mistake: Beyond all the other crippling problems with the Democrats’ health care proposal–its cost at a time of massive deficits, the tax increases it requires at a time of recession, its preference for government over the private sector and for central planning over free competition–the deepest vulnerability of Obamacare is that it (intentionally) puts us on a course towards government rationing of health care.”
That’s a nice debating point, but anyone who has dealt with insurance companies knows that we already have a form of rationing in this country.
Howard’s right, of course; we have insurance companies rationing care, or to be more exact, rationing compensation, which isn’t quite the same thing in theory but does in practice. But why should that be a surprise? All markets are rationing systems for products of varying scarcity. That is why markets exist — to set prices that allow for rationing of finite amounts of goods and services based on supply and demand, with prices rationing goods and services to those who pay the most while allowing the greatest distribution. We have rationing systems for anything requiring a purchase. About the only thing we don’t ration is air.
What Kristol meant to say was that Kennedy made an argument for government rationing of medical care [update - and that's actually what Kristol wrote, too -- Ed]. We have that, too, in Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, and Indian Health Services, all of which are terribly dysfunctional, and none of which should build confidence in expanding the government rationing to the rest of America. Kristol responded to Kennedy’s call for just that by reminding people that they don’t need politicians in charge of their medical decisions.
Kurtz notes that insurance companies occupy that place now, but there are two big differences in that arrangement. First, people can choose now to eliminate the health insurers and pay for their own medical care. Obviously, that takes a lot of money, but in a single-payer system, that option all but disappears — just as it does in Canada, or in the UK, unless one travels out of the country to get medical services. As we have seen in both countries, that creates a much wider disparity between haves and have-nots in medical care.
The second difference? The private health-insurance market allows for competition between suppliers, where a single-payer system would not. Consumers could freely choose to use another insurer if they don’t like the rationing decisions made by their current insurer, or pay for services themselves, as I mentioned earlier. The rationing decisions come from a voluntary association between the consumer and supplier, not from a coerced choice imposed by politicians. If you don’t like the rationing decisions made under single-payer, you will be left with no other options, and the lack of competition will mean that little pressure can be brought to bear to improve those decisions through normal market forces.
If anyone wants to see how a medical-care market could work rationally, all they need to do is see how plastic surgery and Lasik markets work. Because the consumer has to deal with the actual cost of service, these providers are not overwhelmed. Because the providers get actual market compensation for their goods and services, there is no shortage of providers. And because of both of these facts, competition between providers keeps costs reasonable and rational. Health-care reform should learn from that example and move closer to that kind of market, rather than towards more scarcity, less choice, and less freedom.
Every market is a rationing system. The question is this: do you want to make the rationing decisions for yourself, or do you want them imposed on you by an unaccountable bureaucracy that has no incentive to improve?
Update: The American Spectator has more mythbusting on health care.
Update II: One can access private care in Canada and the UK, but at astronomical rates. Only the very wealthy have that as a realistic option, since the heavy tax burden for single-payer systems eats up the discretionary resources of most families.
Update III: John Greene made the same point in response to Peter Singer.
Update IV: My good friend King Banaian allows me to move into intermediate economics with this post, and then makes this serious point:
It’s not only markets that ration. All scarce goods are rationed somehow. And every rationing system creates a distribution of those goods. What I think the Democrats do is look at the distribution ex post and decides it doesn’t like it, so it wants to change it. It’s the common schism in politics between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome, or ex ante vs ex post equity. But the decision to change rationing systems doesn’t just influence distribution. It can also change the production of health care.









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I hope you didn’t let the cat out of the bag, there.
Vashta.Nerada on July 21, 2009 at 11:42 AM
And, by the way, cosmetic surgery prices have decreased over the past 20 years, in real terms. Prices for insured medial treatment, where neither the consumer nor the physician is allowed to negotiate pricing, have skyrocketed over the same period.
Vashta.Nerada on July 21, 2009 at 11:45 AM
Sorry, Ed, but the time for talk is over.
myrenovations on July 21, 2009 at 11:45 AM
Not quite right. You can still pay for private healthcare in Canada, it just costs 5-10 times as much as it does in America because thier competition is the govt.
Aquateen Hungerforce on July 21, 2009 at 11:46 AM
Under Obamacare, I doubt Teddy would get any care; he is past his “use by” date.
bloggless on July 21, 2009 at 11:48 AM
Shut up, Obama explained.
lorien1973 on July 21, 2009 at 11:48 AM
You never know. He wants to ration the amount of CO2 we produce, so why not the amount of air we use?
Daggett on July 21, 2009 at 11:48 AM
No comment necessary. Great explanation Ed. Post this article in newsweak and let Howard take a crack at it.
WashJeff on July 21, 2009 at 11:49 AM
Al Gore would argue this point Ed……
Rovin on July 21, 2009 at 11:49 AM
Now, those are just cold numbers. Wait until another Obama plant complains about their kidney cancer, and he hugs her. That is what makes idiot Americans choose the latter.
Aquateen Hungerforce on July 21, 2009 at 11:50 AM
To be accurate, one has input into rationing decisions that they wouldn’t under a single-payer system. Not all rationing decisions are made by the individual but the individual has a choice about what level of rationing is acceptable given trade-offs like costs between plans and specific needs.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 11:50 AM
LET’S SAY TO CONGRESS: “YOU GO FIRST”!
http://fleming.house.gov/
bloggless on July 21, 2009 at 11:50 AM
None of this matters. If you oppose ObamaCare, all it means is that you hate little kids and old ladies and puppies and flowers and chocolate cake and Sesame Street and you’re also racist, sexist, and homophobic.
Red Cloud on July 21, 2009 at 11:53 AM
Obama does want to ration soda-pop gas. From now on, all beer will be flat…
Steve Z on July 21, 2009 at 11:53 AM
If it’s supposed to be a right, how can it be rationed?
Chainsaw56 on July 21, 2009 at 11:54 AM
It’s my understanding that private healthcare is illegal in some provinces of Canada. But you are correct – where it is available it is very expensive and effectively unavailable to the average citizen. Unless of course you happen to be pet – then you have readily available and affordable healthcare.
gwelf on July 21, 2009 at 11:55 AM
So is Mary Jo Kopechne. But Uncle Teddy can buy whatever he needs.
Steve Z on July 21, 2009 at 11:55 AM
This is one area where I have to give Huckabee some credit. He had a Canadian woman on his show talking about being denied proper healthcare at home and having to come to the US for real and quick treatment. Huckabee really shined in doing the pity thing.
I still wouldn’t vote for him, but this is one area where he could be of some service.
myrenovations on July 21, 2009 at 11:56 AM
Maybe plastic surgery is too cheap. Better stick with just the Lasik example.
WashJeff on July 21, 2009 at 11:56 AM
Politicians will not be participating in the ‘common man’ healthcare plan.
gwelf on July 21, 2009 at 11:57 AM
Unless cap and tax passes, then we can cross air of the list.
WashJeff on July 21, 2009 at 11:58 AM
You’ve got to understand that health care reform isn’t sexy and it always leads to questions about acceptable levels of care (which means not everybody is going to get every treatment possible for every medical condition- i.e. rationing). The left counters this by anecdotal stories of the uninsured mother or the elderly veteran eating dog food to afford his meds. Sadly, even though these stories are largely ficticious when one looks at what services are available, it works with the idiots who see Cadillac health coverage as an entitlement.
The reality is that the really boring stuff is where the sensible change can occur in health care reform. Tinkering with issues like portability, capitation rates, pre-existing conditions, etc. Had the filthy liar in the White House pursued a strategy that was inclusive of his opponents to universal health coverage with a single-payer system, he could have arrived at something called healthcare reform. He may still use thuggery to bring his party members into line and force the Obama plan through but I’d say that it is looking less likely today than it was a week ago. Just too much concern over cost and too few details about the specifics of the scheme.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 11:59 AM
All those people who voted for Barry think that if they have healthcare coverage, they will somehow be magically healthy. All those old folks who voted for him thought they would get their prescriptions for free – they will, but they won’t get their surgery, PT and x-rays at all. Fools.
bloggless on July 21, 2009 at 11:59 AM
About time you started drinking proper beer instead of fizzy shite ;)
LimeyGeek on July 21, 2009 at 11:59 AM
I suppose that if the Left does it, it is only tactically smart for us to do it as well. But arguing by anecdotes is simply irresponsible for programs that will literally change a major slice of every American’s life.
Aquateen Hungerforce on July 21, 2009 at 11:59 AM
And payment from private insurers are based on a contract that is agreed to with the providers. If the providers don’t like the payments from the private insurers, they can choose not to accept the insurance (and the patient can choose another plan that compensates the provider more appropriately).
If a government health insurance plan is available that uses medicare reimbursement rates, there will be no competition. If private insurers could use medicare reimbursement rates, your premiums would fall instantly.
I think the providers should post the price of every procedure. That way people could shop around and see which doctor and hospital is charging more and too much. If they recommend a test, they should tell the person how much the test is going to cost.
A little disclosure could go a long way. Obamacare will FORCE doctors and hospitals to accept a lower payment. So in addition to not having to make a profit or advertise or pay taxes, they will have the ability to reimburse at lower rates. There’s no way a private company could compete.
ThackerAgency on July 21, 2009 at 11:59 AM
Well, it won’t be called rationing. Like discrimination is called Affirmative Action when the gov’t approves, rationing will be called equitable distribution.
ROCnPhilly on July 21, 2009 at 12:00 PM
I tell my clients all the time to call their doctor and make sure that they accept my insurance plan. Sometimes their doctor doesn’t accept that plan, so I recommend another plan for them.
ThackerAgency on July 21, 2009 at 12:00 PM
We can at least try and make them. Go here and see what we can do.
http://fleming.house.gov/
bloggless on July 21, 2009 at 12:01 PM
…or “affirmative access”
LimeyGeek on July 21, 2009 at 12:01 PM
Even then we won’t be rationing air, we will be taxing the hell out of it.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 12:02 PM
Maybe they should be the Guinea pigs for this – set up this type of program just for the politicians and their families and see how it works out for them first.
Chainsaw56 on July 21, 2009 at 12:03 PM
That is why I don’t have a problem with a TV talkshow host doing it but I do have a problem with a member of Congress ir the president doing it.
myrenovations on July 21, 2009 at 12:03 PM
Everyone knows that one of the largest health care cost comes from the overburden of insurance cost that providers have to carry to continue their practices. Democrats won’t touch tort reform for fear of alienating the lawyers across the nation that are sucking the life out of reasonable health care cost. While there are certainly “other” root causes that call for reform, Obama’s attempt to grab/move the industry into government control should tell us all that there’s “money” and “power” involved. Once the government has control, rationing will be a cruel joke on the American public—-and Obama will have completed another phase of his redistribution of wealth policies.
Rovin on July 21, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Evidently, not enough. He will be speaking from the Rose Garden in the next hour according to Fox.
Subject: HealthCare
The boob will be on tube yet again today.
Knucklehead on July 21, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Does the current bill not have the provision to buy rights to “pollute” the air with carbon dioxide?
WashJeff on July 21, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Yes. That is my point. The current crop of Americans that make up the electorate knows very little. They watch “My Sweet Sixteen” and then see a poor person who needs healthcare, and cannot reconcile why the two should coexist. In order to make themselves feel better, they’ll willingly cast chains on me and mine.
As to Obama making any kind of good faith bargain, dream on. He has his own agenda. And it doesn’t care about me.
Aquateen Hungerforce on July 21, 2009 at 12:06 PM
LOL, that’s good.
The original question still holds true:
If it’s supposed to be a right, how can it be rationed?
[Waiting for some of the trolls to chime in here]
Chainsaw56 on July 21, 2009 at 12:07 PM
They touch it alright. The expanded it. Read this WSJ opinion piece. The Dems are planning on removing the lawsuit protection for self-funded insurance plans of large companies.
WashJeff on July 21, 2009 at 12:08 PM
Healthcare is not a right guaranteed by the Constitution. Neither is education, energy, social services or jobs (labor).
Fletch54 on July 21, 2009 at 12:08 PM
No No. They just want access to HC. Listen to them say it. Over and over again. As long as people can access HC, it doesn’t matter if it is inferior or takes 3 years. It is equitable.
To understand to insane, you must yourself put aside rationality.
Aquateen Hungerforce on July 21, 2009 at 12:09 PM
I’ll take my chances with a private insurer over a gubmint Soup Nazi anyday.
bloviator on July 21, 2009 at 12:10 PM
The government approves rationing in Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, and Indian Health Services now and, yes, an element involved is equitable distribution throughout the system.
Same would hold true under Obamacare. Even though not all people forced into the single-payer system would be contributing the same (the rich and those who pay taxes subsidizing the welfare culture, illegals, etc.) there would be a concept of equitable distribution of resources. In theory that means the inner-city where relatively few individuals pay into the system have the same standard that suburbanites get after essentially paying the billions to make this crappy scheme work.
In other words, under Obamacare, equitable distribution is just another form of seizing wealth from the rich so that the state can distribute it as they see fit.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 12:10 PM
Kristol is well aware that health care is being rationed, so are most other people. The question becomes HOW it is being rationed, what reasons and who is doing it. Patients and doctors should be the key deciders.
echosyst on July 21, 2009 at 12:11 PM
Neither is a regular gov’t check to cover one’s food, drink, clothes, housing, cell phone, cable/satellite service, car payment, and electric bill.
But even mentioning that makes me cruel, right? So forget I said it.
The DNC slogan should be More Rights, Less Responsibility.
jazz_piano on July 21, 2009 at 12:12 PM
To get conservatives to bite, how about “fair and balanced” Positive LifeCare? With a name like LifeCare, it would be logical to include abortion and euthanasia. And if you have to wait three years for the abortion, your “negative life choice” can still be remedied.
/sarc You know that, right?
ROCnPhilly on July 21, 2009 at 12:13 PM
It is not just the cost of litigation insurance, it is the cost of litigation prevention — i.e. unnecessary and costly tests done mostly to prevent a lawsuit. As long as somebody else is paying the bills for the test, a doctor is downright stupid not to order as many as possible whenever a diagnosis is not obvious.
I recently went to the ER for sudden and severe upper-GI pain. After 8 hours, an EKG, an ultrasound, AND a CT scan, the doctor could not make a diagnosis and sent me home with some acid-blocking medicine. The total bill was $10,000. (The CT scan alone, which was completely unnecessary, cost $3000.) My insurance paid about $3000, which the hospital accepted, and I paid a $50 copay.
Again last Sunday I ended up in the ER with what was probably a migraine and related nausea. Again he doctor ordered a CT scan “just to rule out a tumor or aneurysm.” In other words, so I would not sue the hospital if something was found later. All I really needed was a lot of fluids for the dehydration and a shot of Demerol. I expect the bill to be about $4000.
Neither the House nor Senate bill does a damn thing to address this problem of runaway tests for litigation prevention.
rockmom on July 21, 2009 at 12:15 PM
This is a great piece, Ed, thanks for the link.
I agree with the author’s concluding point that consumers should be able to buy health insurance across state lines. “Basic” policies are simply not available in some states.
But how could this be achieved? The individual states of course have the right to regulate commerce within their borders, so there are constitutional issues involved. What’s the solution?
Owen Glendower on July 21, 2009 at 12:16 PM
This is so very true.
We all must be equally miserable*
[Except for the politicians and union members and...]
Chainsaw56 on July 21, 2009 at 12:16 PM
Thanks, Ed. Very well explained.
Loxodonta on July 21, 2009 at 12:17 PM
Ed makes a good point about reimbursement, not health care itself, being rationed.
A friend’s wife had cancer. Insurance company decided not to cover the treatment (which worked). They ran up over a million dollars in bills. The hospital eventually stopped bothering them about re-paying, knowing they’d never be able to do so.
The current system has problems, no doubt. But hospitals can be extremely generous in dealing with people who cannot pay (including illegal immigrants and people without insurance).
jazz_piano on July 21, 2009 at 12:17 PM
The filthy liar and his surrogates are continually whining about access for the uninsured. The numbers that are claimed as uninsured or underinsured vary from day to day like the stock market so suffice it to say that some number of Americans do not have health coverage.
Then, there is some number of Americans who do have health insurance. Why are the needs of this latter group less important in healthcare reform than the uninsured- many of whom are not even in the country legally! The administration’s take on this whole issue has been if you have health insurance you are a greedy bastard who needs to be taken down a few pegs by being put in the same system as the great masses as much a punitive measure as any rational change to healthcare delivery systems.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 12:20 PM
It won’t be rationed, for a long time anyway. This is a good scare tactic to use against the legislation, but the real intent is to “grow the beast” and force massive tax increases and defense cuts to pay for it. Democrats won’t directly ration health care. They DO think it is a right and so they will make us all pay for it. This is going to ultimately cause a huge reduction in GDP and living standards in America. We will end up like Europe, with decent and very expensive health care, a stagnant economy, no military, and little opportunity for young people other than working for the government. In other words, a Democrat’s Utopia.
rockmom on July 21, 2009 at 12:21 PM
Granted that Lasik and Cosmetic Surgery can be used for some comparison, but they differ in that they are completely voluntary. What happens when you get Appendicitis? You can volunteer to get it, or you’ll possibly die. There are good statistics that show on average how many people will get Appendicitis, but then what about an outbreak of H1N1? A little murkier. Don’t get me wrong, I’m totally against Obamacare, just making sure we have the right models to prove it will be disastrous.
kirkill on July 21, 2009 at 12:22 PM
In the midst of all this, I gotta wonder what McCain’s healthcare reform plan would have looked like.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 12:22 PM
And if you’re “Rich”, you should get a double whammy.
Shouldn’t the same thing apply to the politicians? Shouldn’t they have to endure the same system that they want to foist on the rest of us?
(BTW, I’m really liking the term ‘filthy liar’ when applied to Fauxbama)
Chainsaw56 on July 21, 2009 at 12:26 PM
Other than Obama’s charts where all the red ink is hidden by smiley faces and unicorns, could you provide an example of a model that doesn’t show the Obamacare plot to be disasterous? The system we have now is need of tweaking not wholesale socialist experimentation. And once enacted there is no turning back. Obamacare is to reform what amputation is to removing a splinter.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 12:27 PM
The very definition of health care is being misrepresented by the Obama administration & the state run media.
Thomas Sowell illuminates us once again.
Medical Care Confusion
By Thomas Sowell
Is there a coherent argument for government-controlled medical care or are slogans and hysteria considered sufficient?
We hear endlessly about how many Americans don’t have health insurance. But, if we stop and think– which politicians hope we never do– that raises the question as to why that calls for government-controlled medical care.
A bigger question is whether medical care will be better or worse after the government takes it over. There are many available facts relevant to those crucial questions but remarkably little interest in those facts.
There are facts about the massive government-run medical programs already in existence in the United States– Medicare, Medicaid and veterans’ hospitals– as well as government-run medical systems in other countries.
None of the people who are trying to rush government-run medical care through Congress before we have time to think about it are pointing to Medicare, Medicaid or veterans’ hospitals as shining examples of how wonderful we can expect government medical care to be when it becomes “universal.”
As for those uninsured Americans we keep hearing about, there is remarkably little interest in why they don’t have insurance. It cannot be poverty, for the poor can automatically get Medicaid.
In fact, we already know that there are people with substantial incomes who choose to spend those incomes on other things, especially if they are young and in good health. If necessary, they can always go to a hospital emergency room and receive treatment there, whether or not they have insurance.
Here, the advocates of government-run medical care say that we all end up paying, one way or another, for the free medical care that hospitals are forced by law to provide in their emergency rooms. But unless you think that any situation you don’t like is a reason to give politicians a blank check for “change,” the relevant question becomes whether the alternative is either less expensive or of better quality. Nothing is cheaper just because part of the price is paid in higher taxes.
Such questions seldom get asked, much less answered. We are like someone being rushed by a used car dealer to sign on the dotted line. But getting stuck with a car that is a lemon is nothing compared to signing away your right to decide what medical care you or your loved ones will get in life and death situations.
Politicians can throw rhetoric around about “bringing down the cost of health care” or they can even throw numbers around. But the numbers that politicians are throwing around don’t match the numbers that the Congressional Budget Office finds when it analyzes the hard data.
An old advertising slogan said, “Progress is our most important product.” With politicians, confusion is their most important product. They confuse bringing down the price of medical care with bringing down the cost. And they confuse medical care with health care.
Nothing is easier than for governments to impose price controls. They have been doing this, off an on, for thousands of years– repeatedly resulting in (1) shortages, (2) quality deterioration and (3) black markets. Why would anyone want any of those things when it comes to medical care?
Refusing to pay the costs is not the same as bringing down the cost. That is why price controls create these problems. When developing a new pharmaceutical drug costs roughly a billion dollars, you are either going to pay the billion dollars or cause people to stop spending a billion dollars to develop new drugs.
The confusion of “health care” with medical care is the crucial confusion. Years ago, a study showed that Mormons live a decade longer than other Americans. Are doctors who treat Mormons so much better than the doctors who treat the rest of us? Or do Mormons avoid doing a lot of things that shorten people’s lives?
The point is that health care is largely in your hands. Medical care is in the hands of doctors. Things that depend on what doctors do– cancer survival rates, for example– are already better here than in countries with government-run medical systems. But, if political rhetoric prevails, we may yet sell our birthright and not even get the mess of pottage.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/07/21/medical_care_confusion_97543.html
Americannodash on July 21, 2009 at 12:28 PM
Great comment! May I have your permission to get this on a bumper sticker/tee shirt? Thanks.
redwhiteblue on July 21, 2009 at 12:29 PM
Absolutely. I don’t know wether you saw any of Michael Steele’s speech yesterday (it was awesome) but he made this very point. He brought up the instance where Obama refused to say that he would put his family into this scheme. Steele rightfully asked why Americans should support a scheme that the President doesn’t believe enough in to enroll HIS family. Same goes with Congress. They need to give up their luxury system and join the herd if they are going to vote for this.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 12:30 PM
Because they believe gov’t can, and should, solve every problem known to man.
It would be nice if humans could solve all the world’s problems. We can’t. Often the best we can do is refrain from exacerbating them.
With gov’t, if the problem doesn’t destroy us, the ‘solution’ will.
jazz_piano on July 21, 2009 at 12:32 PM
I’m still mystified why nobody has proposed a huge tax on cosmetic surgery, LASIK and other unnecessary vanity procedures, to help subsidize insurance for the uninsured and discourage doctors from flocking into these specialties and away from general and internal medicine. My father, a former anesthesiologist, has long advocated a tax on medical advertising as well. There are taxes that can be used effectively to redirect a lot of health spending, without the kind of massive government takeover and eventual rationing of care that ObamaCare will produce.
rockmom on July 21, 2009 at 12:33 PM
Someone should consult Canadians on ObamaCare: “Canadians Protest Plans to Ration Health Care in U.S.” http://optoons.blogspot.com/2009/07/canadians-protest-plans-to-ration.html
Mervis Winter on July 21, 2009 at 12:35 PM
Since this keeps getting batted around, it should be noted that the filthy liar’s plan does not call healthcare a right. It calls it a moral imperitive. Garden variety “rights” can be curtailed (like the 2nd Amendment doesn’t allow you to have any gun you want). Healthcare coverage has been given a place among the inalienable rights as something that should be accepted without question.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 12:35 PM
Gee, I wonder if rationing could have been applied when Chappaquiddick Ted recently got his brain fixed. Could Mary Jo’s killer have lasted a year waiting in line for brain surgery? Hmmm???
byteshredder on July 21, 2009 at 12:35 PM
Sure.
It is a little long – not sure how I could shorten it up.
Chainsaw56 on July 21, 2009 at 12:38 PM
The House bill declares up front that health care is a right; even if Obama has been too clever to use the word, he will sign a bill that says so. It’s been an article of faith for the unions and the hard Left for decades.
Jesse Jackson, Jr. a few years ago actually proposed a new constitutional convention so that we can establish new rights to jobs, homes, and health care. Jackson, Jr. was one of the co-chairs of the Obama campaign. Obama has figured out that he doesn’t need to worry about that pesky Constitution as long as he has Harry and Nancy doing his bidding.
rockmom on July 21, 2009 at 12:40 PM
A minor point but important. Not all cosmetic surgery is of the Nancy Pelosi variety. The thread and many posts suggest that cosmetic surgery is purely voluntary and for vanity’s sake. This neglects to set aside reconstructive procedures that have nothing to do with tummy tucks or baggy eyelids.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 12:41 PM
I still maintain that at some point we are going to have to enforce the supreme law of the land ourselves – upon the fedgov.
We simply cannot allow this kind of illegal behavior to continue unchallenged – Congress does not have unbridled authority to enact any legislation it can get a majority vote on. The longer we remain silent, the greater the momentum of our tacit approval becomes.
Primarily, we must enforce the 10th Amendment as a means of terminating many illegal fedgov programs/legislation. I suspect the only court we can use for this is the SCOTUS.
I’m a tad surprised that no legal professionals in this HA community have chimed in….
LimeyGeek on July 21, 2009 at 12:42 PM
If Healthcare is a right, How can it be rationed?
Or
If Obamacare is a right, How can it be rationed?
Chainsaw56 on July 21, 2009 at 12:44 PM
Yep. There is no other way of looking at it. The filthy liar is acting more like President of the United Nations than representing American interests. He is willing to break bread with the world’s most evil tyrants, props up repressive regimes, and is constantly blaming America for all the world’s ills. I would suggest to you that these are part of the UN Secretary General’s job description.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 12:45 PM
I thought private health care was specifically outlawed in the UK.
Count to 10 on July 21, 2009 at 12:50 PM
A bumper sticker might prove difficult, but using 2 lines and highlighting right and rationed should help get the obvious message across – in a subliminal way.
Also,
makes a good point about the way that the evil Left is trying to twist the American psyche about healthcare, but I won’t give up the good fight.
redwhiteblue on July 21, 2009 at 12:52 PM
Obama: The time for talk is over.
Aide [looking at watch]: Mr. President–
Obama: Gotta run. Time for my talk.
“Because no one should have to choose.”
DrSteve on July 21, 2009 at 12:56 PM
Nope. In fact, it is being increasingly relied upon to pick up the immense slack in the socialized NHS.
LimeyGeek on July 21, 2009 at 12:58 PM
that is Canada I believe…if you have the money in the UK, you can get the care…harley street…
right4life on July 21, 2009 at 1:01 PM
I used to have a policy with BUPA. I had been to NHS hospitals before (shudder), and the first time I had to go to a BUPA facility I almost wept with joy at the sight of a clean, organized, efficient system.
LimeyGeek on July 21, 2009 at 1:05 PM
Unrelated, but important
LimeyGeek on July 21, 2009 at 1:09 PM
NHS probably think MRSA is good for you…toughens ya up!!!
right4life on July 21, 2009 at 1:14 PM
I would Love it if that could be used to defeat that hideous thing.
It’s the left’s usual MO to use word games and deceptions to implement their agenda.
Chainsaw56 on July 21, 2009 at 1:26 PM
I don’t think that’s true at all. The Canadian Federal tax rates are the same at the lowest level, and at most 2-3% higher for those earning between 40-180K (and it’s about the same for a good part of that range), which I’m guessing covers “most” families. (Only the highest tax brackets are significantly higher in Canada.)
Surely not all of that difference is due to the “heavy tax burden for single-payer systems” but even if it were, I don’t see how you can say that it’s that burden that makes it so that only the very wealthy can afford private health care in Canada.
By the way, here are the tax tables for the US and Canada:
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html
tneloms on July 21, 2009 at 1:26 PM
Sure you can pay for your own healthcare in the UK- but you have to take into account that our tax burden is so much higher because everyone has to pay for the NHS. If you want to go private you end up funding the NHS through your taxes and then you have to find the cash on top of that to pay for your own care.
And check out Crowder’s video on Canada- the same happens there too. You have to fund government care through taxes first.
Some freedom that provides anyone but the wealthy who can afford to pay for their health care twice.
Jay Mac on July 21, 2009 at 1:32 PM
Great explanation, Ed.
notagool on July 21, 2009 at 1:57 PM
“I beg to differ.”
/mary jo kopechne
LibTired on July 21, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Have you taken into account that the Canadian tax burden for national defense is de facto subsidized by having a strong neighbor to the South? I’m not suggesting that Canadians are freeloaders but they definitely throw more of their budget on socialized programs since they don’t have to worry about being the first line of defense against the bad people.
highhopes on July 21, 2009 at 2:40 PM
That’s a good point, and the real question is how much of a tax burden Canada’s health care actually creates, which I don’t know. Maybe someone can find out an approximate answer.
Anyway, my point was that I don’t agree at all with Ed’s assertion that the reason only the wealthy can afford private Canadian health care is because of the tax burden from the health program. If there’s any evidence of that, I’d like to see it. It makes as much sense that there simply isn’t as much of a demand for private health care as everyone here claims, and that’s why the prices are exorbitant. For all the talk about crossing the border for US health care, the numbers aren’t so high as to indicate a big enough demand that would lead to affordable prices.
tneloms on July 21, 2009 at 3:00 PM
It is said 5% of patients use up 50% of health care dollars. I do not know if that is true or not, but I will assume it is.
I want everyone to have the best possible health care, but I know that is not possible. There will always be haves and have nots. But what Obama and his Democratic cronies want to focus on is fairness (although there is nothing fair in class warfare)
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=15154
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=700da4c9-ed0f-4036-a017-ce2cc0667a78
Yet Obama and the Dems ignore which system provides the highest benefits to the most people.
http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2009/07/milton-friedman-on-obamacare.html
Milton Friedman recognized this a while ago. His words and warnings are still true.
H/T: Protein Wisdom and Professor Bainbridge
Mr. Joe on July 21, 2009 at 3:27 PM
I’m looking for a link now – Steyn had a quote a couple weeks ago from some bureaucrat in Canada who was complaining how unfair it was that people could opt out and jump to a private clinic now.
“Why, if some people can pay, they’ll lure all the doctors and nurses away from the state system, and then people aren’t suffering equally!” was his complaint.
100% pure Marxist was the way that one sounded. No holding back.
jr.ewing.78 on July 21, 2009 at 3:57 PM
I don’t understand something about Obama’s health care views. Over and over he has gone before our friend’s and our enemies telling them, essentially, that America is no good and we are nothing compared to them, etc. Then he takes the failing systems of gov’t health care in these countries that are- in his words- so much better then we, and tells us Americans that our gov’t is going to do the health care thing too, only we’ll get it right. That implies that those guys aren’t better then us. Isn’t that a bit of double-speak coming from our great leader? I know, it wouldn’t be the first time.
Katec on July 21, 2009 at 6:24 PM
Sounds like how we are paying for our kids homeschooling materials after being taxed in order to pay for the public schools that they are suppose to be attending. No thanks!
Katec on July 21, 2009 at 6:30 PM
I’ll go one step further. I’ll suggest they’re leaving the system intentionally rigged/spring-loaded with the threat of catastrophic litigation looming over our heads as a form of blackmail, in order to coerce people toward gov’t takeover (which would then do away with *all* litigation, treating legitimate grievances no differently than frivolous ones).
RD on July 21, 2009 at 10:17 PM
Update II: One can access private care in Canada and the UK, but at astronomical rates. Only the very wealthy have that as a realistic option, since the heavy tax burden for single-payer systems eats up the discretionary resources of most families.
Finally Ed admits the fact that private plans exist alongside National Health Care in the UK and Canada !!!!!!!!!!!!
He then makes up some nonsense about the cost. Do some research Ed or leave the topic alone.
lexhamfox on July 22, 2009 at 2:43 AM
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