Social conservatives get their socially-conservative political views from their religion. Disabusing them of their theistic delusions is the most direct path to defeating their totalitarian aims politically.

hicsuget on July 17, 2009 at 10:41 AM

You know, for someone who has no investment in religion but a great deal in tradition and history, this argument is even more tiresome than the one about how one can’t be a real conservative if one is not Christian. To wit:

1) Abortion: I don’t care what the Bible has to say about it — I’m not blind or stupid, so I can understand the implications of an ultrasound. Abortion = infanticide. Plus which, since I don’t believe in the immortality of the soul, I believe that the children of the race represent the only thing that is transcendent about it; as a result, to me abortion is a crime against humanity.

2) Gay marriage: I don’t care what the Bible has to say about it — in 10,000 years of recorded history, humanity has never gone there. The Egyptians married their sisters, and Caligula made his horse a sister, but neither the Egyptians nor Caligula consecrated gay relationships. Take a look at how good unrestricted divorce has been for the social fabric before you render the entire institution of marriage meaningless. Not to mention a basic bit of sociology: Using Emile Durkheim’s terminology (himself not a noted member of the devout), marriage is a “social fact” upon which every other Western institution is built.

3) Religion: I don’t care what the Bible says — every successful society has rooted itself in civic religion, and the decline of every successful society can be generally traced to the point that public skepticism destroys civic religion. John Locke (himself not a noted member of the devout) opined that the one form of faith that could not be tolerated is atheism, since it also unweaves the social fabric. American civic religion is a strange amalgam of Christianity and Deism, as were its founders, but, again, look at the health of American society since the ankle-biters began their assault upon it.

I could go on, but my kids just got home. Let me just say that only the small-minded would presume to say that one set of beliefs could only arise from another. As for your atheism, that of course is as much of a religion as is theism — how the hell do you know?

Exit question I’m going to regret: Er, why exactly do so many of you guys seem to loathe Meggie Mac, who’s pro-life, pro-gun, Christian, and hawkish, while you tolerate an atheist who’s squishy on abortion like me? Is it because she spends most of her time bashing the GOP on gay marriage instead of rubbing The One’s face in crap? I’m puzzled.

I pretty much ignore her, but I get the impression that she thinks she’s something special (I think of the drunken “do-you-know-who-I-am?” post). I think the gay marriage movement is stupid. Why? Because 1) the marriage concept of heterosexual union is well-established in human history. It just ain’t marriage if you’re gay. Period. 2) civil union with legal rights is perfectly adequate for everyone’s protection. She’s moving into dangerous touchyfeely territory, falling for that codswallop.

Gay marriage is an in-your-face, union type of demand, because activists and unions are the same damn thing – they live for the fight, they move relentlessly like sharks, or they will die. They live and breathe HUNGER FOR MORE. If they get gay marriage, they’re going to demand that they be married by bishops in St. Patrick’s Cathedral. Why? Because someone said they can’t.

Look, I think gay people are fine – most of them. Some of them are obnoxious in-your-face a-holes (just like every group of people). A rare few couples really stick together – there are legal protections for them, which is only fair. Spousal inheritance, right of access (hospitals, funerals), etc. are rights every human has. Inalienable rights.

Regarding your atheism, AP, I can only say that IMHO it’s a platform that tons of liberals get stuck on. They buy into the “intellectual/scientific” argument that if you can’t see it or prove it, it doesn’t exist. By that reasoning, bacteria didn’t exist centuries ago. The same kind of weird liberal logic (snort) applies to the glowball vorming freaks. “Oh, we’re so intelligent and you who don’t agree are so stupid,” and “You godbags are so lame.” Remember that 90% of the world’s population believes in a Higher Power. There’s no correlation with intelligence.

You have erected intellectual resistance to the idea of God, because you’ve been indoctrinated into the “intellectual” club. Been there, done that. Essential to liberalism is the act of willingly teaching your thoughts to follow pathways so convoluted that at the end you believe that mocking your country is sophisticated (and charming to Europeans). They lick their lips when they meet self-loathing Americans. So your “intellect” teaches you that your instincts are low, animal, and primitive. Therefore you must deny God because you’re too craven to defend the possibility of his existence.

Some truths come from the inside, AP, and some day you may find yourself unbound, and embrace a new way of thinking. I don’t know how old you are, but I was raised Catholic, left the church in college, and never looked back. I had an epiphany at 45. It turned out that all I really had to do was say “no thank you” to organized religion. It’s fine for some, but doesn’t work for me. Life and the world make so much sense, now that I have accepted the nature of God.

Meanwhile, I challenge you to watch Ben Stein’s “Expelled.” There are a lot of thought-provoking ideas. I think you’ll agree that things have become very dangerous for freedom of thought out there.

http://www.expelledthemovie.com/aboutthemovie.php

Seriously, Meghan is a dumb-ass, JTP sounds like a bigot…there’s a difference. Being stupid apparently isn’t frowned upon, hence Meghan gets a lot of attention. However, being a bigot or ignorant about other cultures, races, religions, gender preferences, etc. is frowned upon and rightly so.

So, let’s recap;

Meghan = Stupid, dumb-ass, moron. (and you can quote me)
JTP = bigot.

Exit question I’m going to regret: Er, why exactly do so many of you guys seem to loathe Meggie Mac, who’s pro-life, pro-gun, Christian, and hawkish, while you tolerate an atheist who’s squishy on abortion like me? Is it because she spends most of her time bashing the GOP on gay marriage instead of rubbing The One’s face in crap? I’m puzzled.

You’re more entertaining than she is. Like, way. If we were stranded on a deserted island, the outcome might be different.

No but the state wants the kids to be placed. The church is using their views to stop this.

actually the gays are using their political power to stop children from being placed with real families, instead FORCING the church to violate their freedom of religion so that children get placed with gays. apparently its all about the gays, and whats good for them, hell with the kids.

You dont know their name, their age, their friends, their attitude, their job, nothing. Just the “ghey” so they are bad

again, you prove its all about the ‘gheys’ not about the kids, you and the ‘gheys’ don’t care about the kids, but about your own greed…hell with the kids.

Your not disagreeing your oppressing. You are saying they don’t deserve the rights that you enjoy.

oh please, any disagreement with what the gays want is HATRED or OPPRESSION…when the gays are all about opressing religion, or anyone else who dares disagree with them…and there is no ‘right’ to marriage. if gays should be allowed to marry, why not polygamy, polyandry?? here’s why, it makes marriage meaningless…and its the children who suffer the most….but again, hell with the kids, its all about the ‘gheys’

”? Or oppressing your right of ownership? And as for historical truth, your still an infidel to some people because of thousands of years of someone’s “truth”.

this analogy falls flat…anyone with common sense knows that heterosexual marriage works, and its the best environment to raise kids…gays can’t have kids without cheating…and they should not be able to adopt children. its not good for the kids..but again the gay movement is all about hell with the kids…

I think they need REAL gender roles. A 50% divorce rate shows that kids are having to deal with different difficulties nowadays, to me, as long as the parents are good parents then thats all that matters.

so show me this all this data that proves gays are good parents. you can’t…I have thousands of years of proof of what works, and it works real well…why sacrifice kids so gays can feel good about themselves?? again with the gays, its the hell with the kids…

Just like many religious couples do for their marriages. They pretend its real because they can’t get divorced because of religion. Then all you have is kids in a house with an acidic marriage that just wears down the entire family. Religion or not.

js82 on July 17, 2009 at 1:45 PM

You need to come up w/ a statistic of these acidic religious marriage you’re citing as your reason why gay marriage is a better alternative.

If you don’t, then you have no position from which to argue, and you should just go back to Kos where the other non-thinkers are.

Just like many religious couples do for their marriages. They pretend its real because they can’t get divorced because of religion. Then all you have is kids in a house with an acidic marriage that just wears down the entire family. Religion or not.

js82 on July 17, 2009 at 1:45 PM

at least they have a REAL father and a REAL mother.

Er, why exactly do so many of you guys seem to loathe Meggie Mac, who’s pro-life, pro-gun, Christian, and hawkish, while you tolerate an atheist who’s squishy on abortion like me?

Because I don’t believe her when she says that she’s pro-life, pro-gun, Christian, or hawkish. I think she just says that because she thinks that keeps her on TV.

But gays COULD argue that them not being hired is discrimination. Are you saying discrimination is OK if done by a church?

Jeff from WI on July 17, 2009 at 1:38 PM

It’s part of fulfilling the job requirements. Strip clubs that cater to men don’t hire men as strippers (well, I’m sure some do, but then those aren’t going to hire women as strippers and thus are still discriminating).

Discrimination is perfectly legal if it relates to job performance. Many jobs discriminate against overweight people by putting a requirement that applicants be able to lift a certain amount of weight over the head even if it’s unclear that the office job really entails much physical activity.

Your not disagreeing your oppressing.
js82 on July 17, 2009 at 1:58 PM

“Help! Help! I’m being oppressed.”

It is discrimination in my book, but based on religion. With freedom of religion and to practice it, along with their buildings and their money, I think they should be allowed to discriminate in this way, as much as I don’t like it.

js82 on July 17, 2009 at 1:43 PM

So a person, based on those same religious ideals, COULD logically have an opinion based on those religious ideals, that gays shouldn’t adopt. You might not like their opinion, none the less they could logically have that opinion.

Well the church does not own the children.
but apparently the state or the gays do??

No but the state wants the kids to be placed. The church is using their views to stop this. Its like having tons of money but deciding only people with your view get to have any, the rest, no matter how good of a person they are, dont get any.

it is not in their right to say who does or does not get the children, as long as they are deemed to be good parents then the child should be placed.

so the church doesn’t get to say, but the gays do.

The church is getting their say now and are you saying only the “gehys” want children placed in good homes? Cause I want them to as well. I just think the person should be judged on who they are not what you identify them as. You dont know their name, their age, their friends, their attitude, their job, nothing. Just the “ghey” so they are bad.

In the end the Catholic church has to decide which is more important, their hatred of gays,

why is disagreeing with the gays on ANYTHING deemed ‘hatred’? it can’t be from sincerely held beliefs of THOUSANDS of years of history now can it??

Your not disagreeing your oppressing. You are saying they don’t deserve the rights that you enjoy. If I walk into your house and say your not good enough for it and kick you out and take it for myself is that “ANYTHING”? Or oppressing your right of ownership? And as for historical truth, your still an infidel to some people because of thousands of years of someone’s “truth”.

or their placement of children into good homes.

you are assuming gays make good parents, but thats not true, as I’ve said, and thousands of years of common sense, and recent studies show, children need a REAL mother and father.

I think they need REAL gender roles. A 50% divorce rate shows that kids are having to deal with different difficulties nowadays, to me, as long as the parents are good parents then thats all that matters.

And last time I checked, no one was interested in killing “babies”. Get a dictionary.

guntotinglibertarian on July 17, 2009 at 12:35 PM

Oh, right. Excuse me: fetuses. Just like liberals have stopped saying they want to “sterilize imbeciles” or “control the populations of undesirable persons,” they just want to eliminate “unwanted pregnancies.” That makes it all better.

I can see what dictionary you’re reading from.

Exactly, you have no idea the consequence but stopping it before it starts proves nothing except that your basing your opinion on the only insight you have on the case, religion has told you its bad so its bad. As for a mother and father figure, in some cases these roles are gender reversed. All the gay couples I have known still have these roles which I believe is essential for children.

js82 on July 17, 2009 at 1:39 PM

Actually, the insight is based on personal experience with my own family members, mountains of data at this point showing that kids do better if they can grow up with their own mother and father or the nearest equivalent, several millenia of human experience that stable homes produce stable societies, and yes religious influences.

But, other than that, I got nothing.

Just like many religious couples do for their marriages

scuse me I shouldn’t of said many, just some. As marriages of all types and kinds can become, a fake marriage but you know what… the kids can always tell.

yes, all they can do is simulate real marriages. sigh.

right4life on July 17, 2009 at 1:42 PM

Just like many religious couples do for their marriages. They pretend its real because they can’t get divorced because of religion. Then all you have is kids in a house with an acidic marriage that just wears down the entire family. Religion or not.

But gays COULD argue that them not being hired is discrimination. Are you saying discrimination is OK if doen by a church?

Jeff from WI on July 17, 2009 at 1:38 PM

It is discrimination in my book, but based on religion. With freedom of religion and to practice it, along with their buildings and their money, I think they should be allowed to discriminate in this way, as much as I don’t like it.

All the gay couples I have known still have these roles which I believe is essential for children.

js82 on July 17, 2009 at 1:39 PM

yes, all they can do is simulate real marriages. sigh.

Well the church does not own the children

but apparently the state or the gays do??

it is not in their right to say who does or does not get the children, as long as they are deemed to be good parents then the child should be placed.

so the church doesn’t get to say, but the gays do.

Catholicsm deems gays to automatically be bad, so they are being judged by their cover, not by the content

this is such a distortion of christian teaching…I’m not catholic, but anyone with any sense knows a child needs a REAL father and mother…not a fake.

In the end the Catholic church has to decide which is more important, their hatred of gays,

why is disagreeing with the gays on ANYTHING deemed ‘hatred’? it can’t be from sincerely held beliefs of THOUSANDS of years of history now can it??

or their placement of children into good homes.

you are assuming gays make good parents, but thats not true, as I’ve said, and thousands of years of common sense, and recent studies show, children need a REAL mother and father.