Does ObamaCare outlaw private insurance?
posted at 8:47 am on July 16, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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Investors Business Daily’s editors quickly read through the actual legislation of the House health-care reform bill looking for hidden time bombs — and they found a doozy. On page 16 of over a thousand pages of text, they discovered a clause that essentially locks people into their current plan, and locks everyone out of any other plan. Well, presumably the public plan will be an exception:
When we first saw the paragraph Tuesday, just after the 1,018-page document was released, we thought we surely must be misreading it. So we sought help from the House Ways and Means Committee.
It turns out we were right: The provision would indeed outlaw individual private coverage. Under the Orwellian header of “Protecting The Choice To Keep Current Coverage,” the “Limitation On New Enrollment” section of the bill clearly states:
“Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day” of the year the legislation becomes law.
So we can all keep our coverage, just as promised — with, of course, exceptions: Those who currently have private individual coverage won’t be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers.
Surprise! You can, as Obama promised, keep your current coverage — as long as it remains available. However, if your employer stops offering health-care benefits, or if you buy it privately and your insurer cancels your plan, you can’t just pick up another private plan. Enrollments will be closed as of the first day the bill becomes law.
That will have the effect of forcing millions of people into the public plan whether they want it or not. Even worse, if insurers get barred from attracting new customers — which this clause outlaws — then they will eventually see their rolls drained, thanks to the natural flow of the market as employers drop plans and skip the expense of offering medical insurance. It won’t take long at all for insurers to exit the market and leave the field for just the public plan, which will automatically get the customers of each individual insurer as they close up shop.
Does this bill outlaw private insurance? Literally, no, but in practical terms, it makes it an endangered species and creates an American single-payer system by default.
It has to pass first, though, and Blue Dog Democrats say they’ve seen enough:
Centrist Democrats are threatening to oppose their party’s healthcare legislation unless House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) accepts changes that make the bill more to their liking.
Seven Blue Dogs on the House Energy and Commerce Committee have banded together to draft amendments that they’ll co-sponsor in the committee markup, which starts Thursday. Rep. Mike Ross (D-Ark.), the Blue Dogs’ point man on healthcare, says if those changes aren’t accepted, they’ll vote down the bill.
“We cannot support the current bill,” Ross said. “Last time I checked, it took seven Democrats to stop a bill in Energy and Commerce.” …
Blue Dogs think the bill fails to do enough to reduce healthcare costs, jeopardizes jobs with a fee on employers that don’t provide health insurance, and would base a government-run healthcare plan on a Medicare payment system that already penalizes their rural districts.
Michelle has the names to call this week to encourage them to vote against this bill.
Update: Instapundit gets this feedback from a reader:
Investor’s Business Daily did not continue to read the bill to page 19. “Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan. ”
It does not outlaw individual private coverage – you can still buy the plan on the Exchange where they will compete with the public option, not be replaced by it. The advantage of the Exchange, is that the coverage no longer has one of the problems of individual coverage – skyrocketing premiums should you become ill.
Well, that may address the issue, but price-fixing premiums means insurers can’t cover the costs of the risk they assume. Either the insurers will have to start with higher premiums to cover their costs, or they will go out of business when usage increases and premiums remain fixed. Forcing insurers into price-fixing schemes only adds another step to their extinction.
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Yes, yes. We know. Switzerland knows how to run a country, unlike the moronic US. Now go there already. You can write us letters about how great life is.
You deserve to be in Switzerland, jon. You really do.
progressoverpeace on July 16, 2009 at 10:30 AM
pearson on July 16, 2009 at 10:22 AM
Point being, you can ask how much medical treatment costs. But you will never get a definitive answer beyond the base price of a hospital room, or a visit to the doctor’s office per time segment. No telling in advance what the medical staff find wrong with you that will require whatever treatment. And clinics will only perform certain designated services (immunizations, physicals for school, etc.) in accordance with their own insurance coverage stipulations covering malpractice.
maverick muse on July 16, 2009 at 10:30 AM
jonknee is on his smoke break.
DarkCurrent on July 16, 2009 at 10:31 AM
The Swiss plan may have worked well for them but they have:
- much lower obesity rates (US 30.6% vs Swiss 7.7%)
- much lower population (US 303 million vs Swiss 7.5 mil)
- much lower unemployment (US 9.5% vs Swiss 3.8%)
However, illegal immigration is a rising problem in Switzerland, and their healthcare system is in trouble financially because of it. They also smoke like crazy. It seems to be suffering from the same issues as Romneycare in MA- too many people, not enough money or taxpayers supporting it.
Monica on July 16, 2009 at 10:31 AM
Wait until his communist health care minder hears about that!
darwin on July 16, 2009 at 10:32 AM
I’ve read that also, but it doesn’t take into account the level of fraud in Medicare. It’s administrative costs are so low because, for the most part, it just cuts checks with taxpayer money. There’s very little incentive for it to check where the money goes.
It also doesn’t take into account the massive liability protection that anyone in the medical field if forced to carry (thanks trial lawyers!).
BadgerHawk on July 16, 2009 at 10:32 AM
But this administration won’t do any of that. So how can they mandate insurance for nonlegals, which I understand account for a huge proportion of the currently uninsured (I think I saw a figure of 40% yesterday)?
ProfessorMiao on July 16, 2009 at 10:32 AM
The point is that the VAT is what is helping to pay for the health care. The hidden cost of the “free” health care.
Johan Klaus on July 16, 2009 at 10:33 AM
I am listening to talk radio in a different state than which I live. People are livid.
I do not think these guys in Washington, who know so much more than the rest of us, have any idea the kind of anger that is out there.
ORconservative on July 16, 2009 at 10:33 AM
Illegals are the one factor that have dramatically driven up the costs in recent years.
darwin on July 16, 2009 at 10:33 AM
They’re just a burden on the state.
darwin on July 16, 2009 at 10:21 AM
\
EATR
maverick muse on July 16, 2009 at 10:33 AM
Add the huge cost of fraud in Medicare to that, as well as trillions of dollars of future unfunded liabilities.
ICBM on July 16, 2009 at 10:33 AM
Ann, any good magician knows how to distract his audience with one hand full of motion and energy,..watch the other hand that’s out of sight.
a capella on July 16, 2009 at 10:34 AM
I think you mean “there has got to be a way to provide a healthcare program to the poor.” Universal healthcare is by definition provided to all.
Fact of the matter we already do provide healthcare to the poor through various programs including Medicaid and SSI. Hospitals are required to provide emergency care to all. And there are countless programs that provide preventative care and all the other warm fuzzy points that come up when this issue is discussed. You can also throw in programs like W.I.C. in this capacity.
Is it a perfect system? No. Is it in need of reform. In some ways including taking a good hard look at who is getting SSI benefits.
Is there a crying need to replace the current healthcare system with universal state-controlled and state-mandated socialism? No friggin’ way.
highhopes on July 16, 2009 at 10:35 AM
ROFL.
-Dave
Dave R. on July 16, 2009 at 10:35 AM
Are you dense? Their health care is less subsidized and less expensive than in the US. Their healthcare isn’t free–they pay for insurance and many procedures out of pocket.
We’re obviously a much bigger country, but that’s a pretty US type system. Let the people decide. They accomplish it through heavy regulation of insurance companies, which is a tough pill for the GOP, but it’s near impossible to have great insurance without it (every medical bill paid is a profit lost).
jonknee on July 16, 2009 at 10:37 AM
They’ll figure it out when they are being whisked off to the hospital with multiple pitchforks planted firmly in their behinds.
-Dave
Dave R. on July 16, 2009 at 10:38 AM
Free health care is called the “Santa Clause”.
Johan Klaus on July 16, 2009 at 10:38 AM
Oh Hell’s Bells, it’s really, really easy for a government to spend less per capita for health care than the United States does. All you have to do is deny health care to people. It’s no problem at all, and that’s how nationalized systems keep their costs down. And that’s how the US would do it too if we go down this road.
Are the liberals really so damn stupid that they believe a large government bureaucracy can run 16% of the economy more efficiently than the private sector can with all other things being equal? Wait a minute, don’t answer that. It was a rhetorical question.
eyedoc on July 16, 2009 at 10:38 AM
Ditto. I will put my principles and political ideas up against any statist who thinks he or she is a “liberal” and we will see who is more liberal in the mould of our founders.
WashJeff on July 16, 2009 at 10:39 AM
Not much over 20, are you?
coldwarrior on July 16, 2009 at 10:39 AM
Are you dense? Costs have skyrocketed because consumers have to cover the cost of millions of illegals. The Swiss don’t have the problem anywhere as bad as we do.
darwin on July 16, 2009 at 10:40 AM
The drone is back from his smoke break.
pearson on July 16, 2009 at 10:40 AM
Except they don’t have a nationalized system… It’s a bunch of private insurance companies with regulation and a mandate that everyone has insurance.
jonknee on July 16, 2009 at 10:41 AM
By your user name I’m assuming you’re that mythical conservative in Oregon that gets spotted once in awhile (like big foot)! :-0
Seriously, I’m in the DC area so it’s tough to gauge some of this stuff but I’m sensing a sea change. People are fed up with this out of control spending. It sunk the GOP in 2006 and the tide is turning on the Democrats now. They own this economy and budget and unemployment is rising, taxes are going to be going up this next year even without accounting for healthcare reform and cap-and-trade tax increases, people are finally saying “ENOUGH” and are energized enough to but that anger into action. Here’s hoping the filthy liar and his corrupt party have a deaf ear to what is happening outside the beltway.
highhopes on July 16, 2009 at 10:42 AM
OK … it’s “private” but regulated and mandated.
L.M.A.O.
darwin on July 16, 2009 at 10:42 AM
On top of everything else … the Bush tax cuts expire next year.
Yay!
darwin on July 16, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Hey, it was union-mandated. He had to take that break.
highhopes on July 16, 2009 at 10:44 AM
There is. It’s called the free market and capitalism which provided the opportunities. What people do with it is up to them.
There are plenty of charities, free clinics, programs for children – that’s how it gets done.
Oh, wait, Obama and the dems are going after charities by taking away tax deductions, what a coincidence!
Hmm, Obama and the Dems want to force Catholic hospitals to provide abortions, so they will end up closing their doors, another astounding coincidence!
Of course Obama and the dems assault on the economy is also killing charitable contributions – The Shriner’s Hospital near me just announced that they are going to take insurance now, because they were ready to shut their doors.
Not good.
reaganaut on July 16, 2009 at 10:44 AM
We are still going to have millions of uninsured illegal aliens because they often work off the books and will not have to provide the proof that they purchased insurance come tax time (if we go the way of MA).
So, we are going to have to have amnesty so that they can come out of “hiding” and start working legally. Otherwise, we can’t use their money to pay for the program and we can’t force them to buy health insurance.
If we get ObamaCare, we must also get amnesty.
myrenovations on July 16, 2009 at 10:45 AM
It is a nationalized system.
BTW, go to the university library, its that big building with a lot of books, use your student ID, and check out and read Jack Greenspan’s “Accountability and Quality Assurance in Health Care.” It is an older book…1980, may have been updated.
Then stop back and try to make your points based on facts not feelings.
coldwarrior on July 16, 2009 at 10:45 AM
johnkee is the best argument I have seen so far against government education.
This goober-cheese regurgitates bullsh*t nanny-state talking points faster than an automated, atomic-powered Khrushchev statue.
-Dave
Dave R. on July 16, 2009 at 10:46 AM
Yeah, maybe I should change my name to bigfoot! Actually, all my immediate neighbors are middle right to very right. Funny, a little corner in Portland of sanity.
I think the tide is turning too. The die hards who staked everything on their deep love of Obama are not turning. They will follow him right off the cliff but the people with independent thought are being pushed too far.
ORconservative on July 16, 2009 at 10:47 AM
I don’t want to buy insurance. I guess I’ll just get taxed.
True_King on July 16, 2009 at 10:47 AM
I have been called more than dense. How much time have you spent in Switzerland? Do you think that things are cheaper in the U.S. because of cheap illegal immigrant labor? The cost of health care in Switzerland and lettuce in the U.S. are both hidden in the taxes.
Johan Klaus on July 16, 2009 at 10:48 AM
Where’s AnninCA now?
DarkCurrent on July 16, 2009 at 10:48 AM
One of the bits of fine print that is being ignored….take it or we’ll tax the hell out of you. Sounds like extortion.
If you pay the tax, will you get health coverage?
coldwarrior on July 16, 2009 at 10:49 AM
Unless you’re old. Then you’ll just pay taxes and die.
Obama Care … the Communist Way!
darwin on July 16, 2009 at 10:52 AM
Exactly.
With all that is going on, I’m finding it more and more irritating when some like Sean Hannity refers to them as ‘Liberal’ .
I agree with most of what he says, but I think he should be more precise in labeling those people.
[I also find it annoying that he overuses the phrase “By the way”, but that's a different issue]
My apologies to anyone that wasn’t bothered by that, but may now find it annoying since I brought it up, sorry.
Chainsaw56 on July 16, 2009 at 10:55 AM
Puddleglum on July 16, 2009 at 10:28 AM
Yes, I caught that first time. The only surgeon whose fees are significantly lower than another’s would be highly suspect; I would add, just as a surgeon whose fees are so extraordinarily more expensive than the others out of greed and indifference to humanity. Given life’s vulnerability under the knife, I don’t want to be held victim by a dumb ass or a pompous ass.
Some doctors may donate pro bono services to charity references. But that is their choice, as is offering sliding scale fees per income to patients who’ve made financial arrangements directly with the doctor. Someone shopping for a cut rate isn’t going to find one by calling the front desk receptionist. And there’s no time to do even the phone call shopping given an emergency.
The fact remains within a region, there is no hospital that charges patients significantly less than others except for tax funded stinking hospitals.
I’ve commented before that financial arrangements following treatment can be made by patients, to make regular monthly payments on the hospital and doctor fee bills according to what the patient’s salary permits. Medical institutions are not going to offer this until you make the arrangements and fulfill them.
maverick muse on July 16, 2009 at 10:58 AM
Universal health care is not the government’s business. Health care, and health insurance, are individual options. People can decide not to pay for health insurance and they cannot complain about getting sick and not getting treatment. Our nation is about individual freedom. I am allowed to go rock climbing, even though it might kill me. I am allowed to smoke. It is not the government’s job to save my life or restrict my choices so that others don’t have to watch me die.
The government’s job is merely to insure that a free market exists so that we can all exercise our right of individual liberty and choose how and what we do. For people who are too poor to afford health insurance, they have to rely on family and private charities. If our population is not charitable enough for the tender sensibilities of some, that’s just tough. The fact is, though, that conservatives have intact family structures and give to charity to help the indigent, but self-absorbed leftists don’t.
The government’s job is not to provide everything for everyone, but only to secure our liberties. Health care is not a liberty.
Madison addressed this long ago,
Our Constitution has been tortured enough. This new idiotic call for universal health care would just be the final nail in the coffin of our nation. Our government needs to worry about getting the illegals out of our country and denying them any government benefits before they start trying to kill the rest of us with their insane collectivist ideas.
progressoverpeace on July 16, 2009 at 10:59 AM
Dave R. on July 16, 2009 at 10:46 AM
He has “Obama On His Shoulder” pull-string doll.
maverick muse on July 16, 2009 at 11:01 AM
Crucifixion of the American Citizen.
maverick muse on July 16, 2009 at 11:03 AM
Yep. Except that they’re killing us to cover up their sins. The post-modern twist.
progressoverpeace on July 16, 2009 at 11:05 AM
This bill and all the others that they’re trying to ram down our throats, scare me. I lived in ireland for 8 years (’76-’84) and saw what high taxes, high unemployement, and strong unions did to a place. I understand that they’ve since lowered their taxes, at least at the business end, and, fancy that, saw a distinct improvement in their economy.
I also spent 6 years with the national health as my primary care giver.
NEVER AGAIN.
A year to wait to have a wart removed, except you know it’s not a wart, and it just keeps growing. Only one option in a given drug class, an option which made me vomit for hours, but hey, it’s free! “Oh, but 10% to 20% of all acute appendectomies get post-op abscesses.” As of 2001, a 30% wound infection rate for C-sections was still considered acceptable. (WWII and Korean War MASH units had 1% rates, and they were dealing with battlefield injuries, not operative wounds, made in a supposedly sterile environment.) Circa 1980 the Galway Regional Hospital ventilated the operating room by opening a window. Which overlooked a cow pasture. And which didn’t have any screens.
Hospital acquired infections are almost guaranteed in the UK because of the lack of money to pay for anyone to actually clean the place. Read David Asman’s piece in the WSJ http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006785. At least he had the option to pay privately for some of his wife’s treatment; as far as I can see, HR 3200 is setting it up so that we won’t have that option, especially since those in control are trying to do away with HSAs so we can’t easily save for stuff they won’t cover.
I think what scares me almost as much as these pieces of “legislation”, and what the Dems think they can do to us, is what I can see as the only sane reaction if they go through, the American Revolution, 2.0. And it could be as bloody as the first one.
But if I have to choose between those two frightening courses of events, a socialist/marxist takeover of my country with the loss of my and my family’s freedom, or a civil/revolutionary war, I know which one I’ll choose.
LibraryGryffon on July 16, 2009 at 11:06 AM
Just for giggles….google “switzerland health care system.”
Thousands and thousands of hits…then scroll through the list. Lot of this “Swiss is better” stuff of recent vintage. Almost as if it is a directed effort on the part of someone? The Davos Group? The Health Care Czar?
Did jonknee just happen to pick the Swiss example or was it being fed? Shades of Begala and Rahm Emmanuel.
Yes, the Swiss system works very well presently, and while private carriers dole out the payments it is government that sets prices for everything from aspirin to an MRI. So, with the government setting prices…can it be really a private health care system? Ummm, no.
Switzerland is also a much smaller, closer-knit, generally homogeneous nation, with a long history of shared expenses and effort and such being held as a sign of Swiss unity and nationhood going back centuries…all part of the national psyche.
But…it does have an illegals problem that is growing not shrinking. It is also not immune to global financial disruption, far more today than perhaps even a few years ago.
Can the Swiss model be sustained? For how long? At what cost?
Can the Swiss model be transferred here to the United States? Not bloody likely.
coldwarrior on July 16, 2009 at 11:07 AM
Yeah, it certainly won’t solve the problems it claims to solve without it.
ProfessorMiao on July 16, 2009 at 11:08 AM
Well said.
-Dave
Dave R. on July 16, 2009 at 11:08 AM
Oh, almost forgot…try to find an OB/GYN in Switzerland. Or a mental health professional. Or any number of other esoteric non-general practice medical professionals. Then try to get an appointment.
coldwarrior on July 16, 2009 at 11:09 AM
Interesting. I wonder if this is also a sop to the unions? Many many companies are trying to move their bargained employees to flex health savings account type insurance plans as their contracts come up (remember, this was the major reason that ATT and the CWA could not come to agreement). These types of plans almost instantly reduce the cost to the company by about 2-4 thousand dollars a year, bring them in to line with what companies should be paying for their employees, around 6-8 thousand per year.
If companies cannot change the plan offered, costs will stay high. So, they may dump offering insurance, if the “tax” is less than what they currently pay.
William Teach on July 16, 2009 at 11:13 AM
That, and malpractice insurance. We can thank ambulance chaser lawyers like John Edwards for that one.
anniekc on July 16, 2009 at 11:15 AM
Yes, absolutely. The unions will dump their costly health care on the taxpayer. Can you say increased profit out the wazoo?
darwin on July 16, 2009 at 11:15 AM
Of course those are two things the government has conveniently ignored. Almost makes you think they set health care up to fail.
Nah … they wouldn’t do that, or would they?
darwin on July 16, 2009 at 11:17 AM
But..but…but…the “public option” is just that, an “option”. Barry wouldn’t LIE to us, would he?
GarandFan on July 16, 2009 at 11:19 AM
See how Barry lies?
“We want you to keep your private insurance”
Page 16. – If you change jobs, drop insurance, etc., you can ONLY GO WITH THE GOVT PLAN.
What a shameless liar. This guy is SO dangerously dishonest.
marklmail on July 16, 2009 at 11:21 AM
I think this is a smoking gun, Ed.
JKahn913 on July 16, 2009 at 11:29 AM
Can they recall senators like they recall governors? Start citizen movements for recalling Dem majority then. Only way to stop it.
promachus on July 16, 2009 at 11:32 AM
Or you could do what I plan on doing; kicking the bucket before 2013.
steveegg on July 16, 2009 at 11:33 AM
You might as well just have fun. Lance Armstrong got seed cancer and he is one of the healthiest guys on the entire planet.
Bishop on July 16, 2009 at 11:44 AM
You just signed your name and apparently that is considered gauche around these parts.
It’s Tier 8 for you, buddy.
Bishop on July 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM
Yes, you could buy “private” insurance through the gov’t run insurance exchange which creates its own standards which may not be anything like your previous private plan.
The question is do you trust your healthcare in the hands of this gov’t run insurance exchange program?
karlant on July 16, 2009 at 11:58 AM
hopefully a poison pill.
WashJeff on July 16, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Suppose we are in the future. This behemoth bill has passed both chambers, signed by POTUS, and is now law. All those who had grandfathered policies are now deceased. Will there or will there not be legal allowance for ‘private‘ insurance companies to have policies of their own making?
After answering that question, ask yourself again: does this outlaw private insurance?
anuts on July 16, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Now we know why Obama sent the bust of Winston back.
Speakup on July 16, 2009 at 12:08 PM
It’s easy to get low administrative costs when somebody else is paying them.
The GAO picks up most administrative costs for most govt agencies.
MarkTheGreat on July 16, 2009 at 12:13 PM
Exactly. In the insurance exchange the private and public plans will operate by the same strict policy guidelines, the only question for the consumer will be whose plan is cheaper–and the public plan will win hands down.
anuts on July 16, 2009 at 12:06 PM
karlant on July 16, 2009 at 12:15 PM
This is a myth. Adminstrative costs are hidden throughout government. Waste in Medicare is estimated to be at 30% or higher.
lorien1973 on July 16, 2009 at 12:25 PM
Does this mean the Fed’s will then provide Malpractice insurance also at taxpayers expense????
Well then it will cost 2 Trillion dollars!!!!!!!!!!
Rick007 on July 16, 2009 at 12:30 PM
This doesn’t mean what people think it means.
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf
At least as I read it it means that you can’t take people into plans that exist before the bill is passed. You can only take new enrollees into plans created after the passage of the bill, and with whatever mandates it contains.
So still bad, though not quite as bad.
Archades on July 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM
There is, it’s called charity.
MarkTheGreat on July 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM
I said that on the first page of comments and no one cares, they just wanted ammo to show the bill was going to destroy healthcare because that’s what they already think. It doesn’t matter if it’s true. Actually reading the bill doesn’t help their case.
jonknee on July 16, 2009 at 12:35 PM
Many health care costs are the result of social pahtologies.
Obeisity, crime, etc.
Many other costs come from how things are defined.
If all you want to do is compare how much govts admit that they pay for health care, then you are admitting that you really don’t want to know what the truth is.
MarkTheGreat on July 16, 2009 at 12:35 PM
Racist.
lorien1973 on July 16, 2009 at 12:37 PM
The downside of that is that the cost for Medicare fraud is in the hundreds of billions, precisely because they rubber stamp claims.
And that 3% claim has always been crap anyway, they’ve rigged the numbers. If they measured it the same way they measure private insurance companies, Medicare would be no better and probably worse. When is the govt ever more efficient than private enterprise?
Finally, a large part of the administrative costs for private companies, is spent to comply with all of the idiotic crap coming out of Congress. The government is the problem, as usual.
NoDonkey on July 16, 2009 at 12:39 PM
That’s sounds true enough, but the point goes to the claim that somehow the language on page 16 still allows for private insurance. Someone on this thread actually believes that a phasing out (which is the whole design behind any and all grandfather clauses) of private policies is not equated to outlawing said policies. The thinking seems to be:
Legal mandate phasing out of x=allowance of x
Amazing use of logic and understanding.
anuts on July 16, 2009 at 12:40 PM
it is asinine to compare USA to Switzerland!!
Switzerland has a smaller population than New York City!
go buy a clue!
ginaswo on July 16, 2009 at 12:42 PM
That I will never do.
Goldenavatar on July 16, 2009 at 12:43 PM
How would the public plan win hands down? If the government is always inefficient, it should always be more expensive. The bill states they have to adjust premiums to cover the cost, so any subsidies will go to people who can choose their provider. If they are more expensive and have worse service few people will choose their plan.
From the bill, emphasis added:
jonknee on July 16, 2009 at 12:45 PM
What the hell are you talking about? All I was saying is one reason for the higher cost of health care is that the cost of treating illegals is spread amongst the consumer and taxpayer.
La Raza has championed this bullshyt from the get go and Obama knows it will cover illegals.
darwin on July 16, 2009 at 12:54 PM
I’m not sure of your point here. Are you saying you’d support a bill that had a public option -because- the government option would be expensive; and thus force people into private plans? Which, if they did not purchase, they’d be penalized?
lorien1973 on July 16, 2009 at 12:59 PM
Give it a rest you mindless troll.
You and the filthy liar presents this as if the public plan and the private plan are equal competitors in the market place. They are not. The whole bill is set up to make private insurance unattractive and expensive because the default is the public plan and it is mandatory to either sign up to some plan or be penalized. Employers can opt for a private insurer but just dumping insurance and telling people to sign up for the public plan would be inevitable.
You really are as much of a liar as Obama. Hope that paycheck from the special interest group paying you to spew your propaganda is worth being a gormless troll.
highhopes on July 16, 2009 at 1:03 PM
Furthermore, if the premiums of the “public option” fully funded the public option; why do they need to talk about a tax increase to pay for it. Wouldn’t the paid in premiums fully cover the costs.
I mean, if you believe what you are typing. You have to at least see the underlying cognitive dissonance, no?
lorien1973 on July 16, 2009 at 1:06 PM
I say we contact Mexican government and offer them a special group rate in lieu of simply billing the country $1,000 a piece for each of their citizens that are in this country illegally.
highhopes on July 16, 2009 at 1:08 PM
“Junkee” knows fully well he’s full of crap. Everything he has posted today has been the same few talking points from the filthy liar in the White House’s first speech. Everybody knows it is a complete and total lie that tax increases won’t be necessary under this scheme. Nevertheless, there are the morons out there that will believe anything that the rat bastard traitors of this administration tell them to think.
highhopes on July 16, 2009 at 1:12 PM
I’m saying I am for a public plan as long as it has to compete like the private plans. If it’s getting direct subsidies then I don’t support it.
The cost comes into play because the bill requires people to have insurance and will subsidize people who can’t afford it. So some people will be getting federal subsidies, but they can use those dollars to buy private or public insurance. A good deal of the money will be used to buy private insurance.
If they removed the public plan the costs of the bill would in theory remain unchanged. Well if you want to really get into theory the cost would be more because premiums across the board would be higher (they maintain that a public plan will lower everyone’s premiums by introducing more competition).
I don’t really care about the public plan that much–I’d be fine giving it a go without it at the start or building in an evaluation date where if it’s not meeting certain marks it’s disbanded.
jonknee on July 16, 2009 at 1:12 PM
I would bet you could find many countries who pay less…Cuba probably pays less, Venezuela, New Guinea, China. There are about 200 sovereign countries in the world, big deal…
right2bright on July 16, 2009 at 1:15 PM
Medicare is set to implode man, why do you think that is?
True_King on July 16, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Now you are engaging in cognitive dissonance:
Then…
So it is getting direct subsidies. So do you not support it?
They get less treatment too. And they have to supplement with private insurance for things that aren’t covered. Check out socialism myths. You’d be surprised.
So, by definition, the quoted section of your bill is rendered void, isn’t it. Because – if some people are getting sudsidies for the public plan – the amount taken in can never cover the total amount of coverage. Again, you have to see the cognitive dissonance here.
Unknowable. You cannot make the claim. Given that the bill is only in committee and unfinished, you cannot even logically argue that the quoted section you mention would be in the bill at all. And if it’s what you are hanging your hat on.
Then again, I’d pose the simple question of – what business is it of government that we have insurance anyways. Our choice to have it or not. Right?
The bill’s intent is to kill smaller insurance companies, to favor the larger ones. I’m not sure how this introduces more competition. Can you illuminate me?
The way to introduce more competition is to decouple employment and insurance. Let people pick from the thousands of plans out there, instead of being forced to choose from 1 or 2 offered by employers. That’d be a good first step, don’t you think? If you honestly believe that the goal is more competition. If that’s their goal, why not take that simple step?
Then, you could look at the actual reasons insurance costs and medical costs are high. Which, by the way, are primarily because of government mandates that already exist.
lorien1973 on July 16, 2009 at 1:26 PM
jonknee: Bush?
darwin on July 16, 2009 at 1:26 PM
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