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Bombshell: CBO chief tells Congress ObamaCare will “significantly expand” federal spending; Report: Bipartisan deal close?

posted at 2:20 pm on July 16, 2009 by Allahpundit
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I’m using “bombshell” unironically. You and I know that it’ll explode spending but The One’s actually been pitching this boondoggle — insanely — as a cost-saving measure, even though it’s common knowledge that ObamaCare 1.0, a.k.a. Medicare, is well on its way to bankrupting America.

The cat’s all the way out of the bag now.

Conrad: Dr. Elmendorf, I am going to really put you on the spot because we are in the middle of this health care debate, but it is critically important that we get this right. Everyone has said, virtually everyone, that bending the cost curve over time is critically important and one of the key goals of this entire effort. From what you have seen from the products of the committees that have reported, do you see a successful effort being mounted to bend the long-term cost curve?

Elmendorf: No, Mr. Chairman. In the legislation that has been reported we do not see the sort of fundamental changes that would be necessary to reduce the trajectory of federal health spending by a significant amount. And on the contrary, the legislation significantly expands the federal responsibility for health care costs…

As we wrote in our letter to you and Senator Gregg, the creation of a new subsidy for health insurance, which is a critical part of expanding health insurance coverage in our judgement, would by itself increase the federal responsibility for health care that raises federal spending on health care. It raises the amount of activity that is growing at this unsustainable rate and to offset that there has to be very substantial reductions in other parts of the federal commitment to health care, either on the tax revenue side through changes in the tax exclusion or on the spending side through reforms in Medicare and Medicaid. Certainly reforms of that sort are included in some of the packages, and we are still analyzing the reforms in the House package. Legislation was only released as you know two days ago. But changes we have looked at so far do not represent the fundamental change on the order of magnitude that would be necessary to offset the direct increase in federal health costs from the insurance coverage proposals.

It’s a month to the day since the first time Elmendorf kneecapped Hopenchange by announcing that not only would an early iteration of ObamaCare cost a trillion dollars over the next decade, it would still leave millions uninsured. The money question now: Will this further embolden the Blue Dogs to torpedo the House bill? They’ve got tons of media momentum behind them, believe it or not. Drudge is leading with the New York Post’s story about a 57% combined income tax rate in New York City on top earners once the ObamaCare surtax passes while ABC flags a study showing that combined top tax rates in fully 39 states will soar to over 50% as well. The public’s not buying The One’s crap about how the rich are going to pay for this either: According to Rasmussen, 78% expect the tax burden for ObamaCare to trickle down to the middle class. And in McClatchy’s new poll, the split between those who think expanding coverage is top priority and those who think top priority is controlling costs is now just two points, within the margin of error — even as the number who say the country’s on the right track has dropped 12 points since June, confirming the Hotline poll from yesterday. Like Karl says, the mask is off and The One’s political capital is at ebb tide. If fiscal conservatives can’t stop ObamaCare now — or at least vastly improve it — then we never will.

Update: Even supersquishy Olympia Snowe’s getting cold feet:

But beyond policy, Snowe and other moderates are bristling at the time table set by President Obama – he wants bills passed through the House and Senate before the bodies leave for their August recess on August 7.

She told reporters last night that’s probably not enough time. And she pointed to the creation of Medicare in the 1960s, which she said took a lot longer than the time table set out by Democrats this year.

Update: A must-read post from Kaus. If you’d told me in advance that ObamaCare would run into problems, the very last reason I’d anticipate would be poor salesmanship by Obama. And yet:

He lectures: It’s also time, Obama tells his viewers, to lose weight, and stop smoking, and pull up your socks. Later on he tells people that they are foolish to prefer brand name drugs to generic drugs, and to want multiple medical tests. “If you only need one test, why do you want five tests?” Stop clinging to your tests! You’re worse than those people in Pennsylvania.

Who knew we were electing a national mother-in-law? And get a chance to endure increased taxes for the privilege. Obama’s supposed to be rallying support from voters, not castigating them. Outside the S& M parlor, most people do not enjoy paying to be disciplined.

Update: Uh oh.

Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus(D-Mont.) said Thursday that he hopes to have a bipartisan deal on a health care reform bill by the end of the day.

He made the remarks after huddling for about two hours with five Finance Committee members most closely involved in the negotiations. It was the first time Baucus acknowledged a time frame for reaching an agreement.

“We are meeting very aggressively today,” Baucus said of the bipartisan group, which plans to meet again at 1:30 p.m. “We will keep meeting all day long. I hope we can reach some kind of agreement by the end of the day, but having said that, it depends on what kind it is.”


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We are a society. We come to decisions together. If you are still thinking that your hip replacement, provided by your own insurance, is a solution…and you do not see that as fantasy thinking…then perhaps we have not yet met the place where we gell, societally speaking.

My 80 yo father had an outpatient procedure performed recently. They essentially caulked the fractures in his spine. Before the procedure the morphine allowed him some relief at the expense of soiling his bed. He lives with us as does my mother who needs a hip replacement. After the procedure there was about a month of physical therapy. Afterwards he was able to drive my mother to her doctors and plant a garden with my daughter. They just got their first tomato. So, AnninCA: care to comment? Or are you and you’re ilk smarter than us fantasy thinking GEICO cavemen?

If any procedure leads to quality of life, then I think the procedure makes sense.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:38 PM

Ann:

Oh yes, it can get worse. Just look at California. And besides, the government will just let people die. They will. That is much worse.

If you think it can not get worse, then you have lived a very sheltered life.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 5:38 PM

But overall, polls show that people DO want reform.
AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 4:01 PM

Yeah, I’m one of those people who want reform.

I want the slip and fall, ambulance chasing lawyers out of it.
I want government bureaucrats out of it.
I want the two ‘administrators’ that are required to fill out the bureaucratic government and lawyer mandated paperwork for each individual doctor, nurse and technician out of it.

I want the people who destroyed what was once an efficient and effective system out of it.

Put that in your poll and smoke it.

This so called reform coming out of Washington means fewer of the people who actually try to make people well, and increases the paper shuffling bureaucrats exponentially.

LegendHasIt on July 16, 2009 at 5:38 PM

I don’t doubt that you believe that. BTW just out of curiosity if you were stranded on a desert island who would you rather have stranded with you, a government bureaucrat or a doctor?

LOL* Believe it or not, one of my favorite lovers was a surgeon.

He was so detailed. :)

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:40 PM

And Ann, by and large polls show that people do not want the added expense. They do not want a trillion dollar program and they do not want to change their own coverage. Even that silly poll from CBS that was so biased as to be ridiculous showed a decline in support down to 37% if the costs were more than $500 a year in taxes. So come on, that is not even realistic.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 5:40 PM

If Republicans go along with this it will be time to destroy the GOP.

WisCon on July 16, 2009 at 5:41 PM

This if for AnninCA and her ilk:

“If you want total security, go to prison. There you’re fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking… is freedom.”
–Dwight D. Eisenhower

Rae on July 16, 2009 at 5:41 PM

The only time government moves quickly is when it’s creating a bloody mess.

redfoxbluestate on July 16, 2009 at 5:42 PM

We are a society. We come to decisions together.

-AnninCA

You’re saying society has the right to take measures to increase its efficency and cost-effectiveness. Society can easily determine which people are providing the greatest to the overall economy, and we should keep that in mind when deciding where our dollars are allocated.

Is that what you’re in favor of?

hawksruleva on July 16, 2009 at 5:43 PM

LOL* Believe it or not, one of my favorite lovers was a surgeon.
He was so detailed. :)
AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:40 PM

How cute!!! But remember, it’s not “like it used to be”, so now all surgeons are heartless and driven by “excess profits”

Oh to live in the age before microscopic surgery… What a loveless he’ll we live in, where are our medical needs are met………

battleoflepanto1571 on July 16, 2009 at 5:43 PM

If any procedure leads to quality of life, then I think the procedure makes sense.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:38 PM

for example THAT HIP REPLACEMENT FOR A 90 YEAR OLD??????????????????????

Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 5:44 PM

Ann:

Oh yes, it can get worse. Just look at California. And besides, the government will just let people die. They will. That is much worse.

If you think it can not get worse, then you have lived a very sheltered life.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 5:38 PM

Or maybe they’ll let them live in pain, without medication or surgery. In the name of universal health care.

hawksruleva on July 16, 2009 at 5:44 PM

The real problem is that there has been no rational debate, no details on the plan and a lot of totally contradictory claims have been made.

And right now the country is drowning in debt and is in a recession. To add the burden of more taxes and a new huge entitlement program at this time just seems fool hardy to me.

And if in the end people have higher costs, lose their insurance and millions are still left uninsured, people will only hate it more than what is already there.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 5:45 PM

If any procedure leads to quality of life, then I think the procedure makes sense.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:38 PM

for example THAT HIP REPLACEMENT FOR A 90 YEAR OLD??????????????????????

Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 5:44 PM

OH, SNAP!

Animator Girl on July 16, 2009 at 5:46 PM

Harry Reid should be drawn and quartered.

Dig this bit:

Elmendorf (of the CBO) said health analysts say the way to do it by changing the preferential tax treatment for health insurance.

“We have a subsidy for larger health insurance policies in our tax code, and that like other subsidies encourages more of that activity,” Elmendorf said. “Reducing that subsidy would reduce that.”

Obama and Democratic leaders ruled out taxing health benefits last week because it would hit middle-class families and union workers.

Reid dismissed Elmendorf’s advocacy for the benefits tax.

“What he should do is maybe run for Congress,” Reid told reporters.

Wow. Just wow.

connertown on July 16, 2009 at 5:46 PM

call your damn US Senator or Congress idjit. I email mine almost daily. liberal dem he is. tom perriello, 5CD, VA.

keep at it folks. that is time better spent than fussing with anninca.

kelley in virginia on July 16, 2009 at 5:46 PM

This so called reform coming out of Washington means fewer of the people who actually try to make people well, and increases the paper shuffling bureaucrats exponentially.

Me, too. I don’t see the GOP offering an alternative.

It comes down to wanting reform wanting more than to simply avoid WA insider politics.

I fought hard on that one. I lost.

So now, this is what I see as possible.

I really think healthcare reform is important, even for the economy.

Yes, it may mean that some people can’t log in massages as therapy.

That’s OK by me.

Give it UP!

We just need to put this into place. Move on. We’ll refine it as we go.

But I still think the biggest issue?

How does the USA provide anything worth paying for to the world?

Technology?
Manufacting?

What?

We are in a global economy. I’m done with all the NAFTA discussions.

We’re there.

So what the heck do we do to earn real money?

Gosh, I hope the answer isn’t financial leadership.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:46 PM

hawksruleva:

No, they will just make them comfortable. They will not waste resource on terminal people. They will not pay for chemo for someone with virtually no chance of survival. They will not give pace makers to the elderly.

Unless of course they are rich elderly.

Just like education, the people who can afford the best will continue to get it.

Notice how Obama never sent his kids to a public school. Well, needless to say they won’t be seeing some government doctor either.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 5:47 PM

Hey anyone want to list AnninCA’s greatest comments today?

Here’s my vote:

“Someone’s mother died of negligent medical care. She was 89 years old. Can you believe the child sued? The mother was 89! She was almost dead anyway right?”

battleoflepanto1571 on July 16, 2009 at 5:47 PM

when does push become shove?

Ed Graef on July 16, 2009 at 5:49 PM

battleoflepanto1571 on July 16, 2009 at 5:47 PM

+1

Animator Girl on July 16, 2009 at 5:49 PM

Or maybe they’ll let them live in pain, without medication or surgery. In the name of universal health care

.

Surely there is gray in this area.

Or else, we just land back in a class war. You’re willing to let “poor” people die on the sidewalks.

Just not you, eh?

That reinforces the current image of the GOP. BTW, I think that image is complete BS.

But may you like it.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:49 PM

Ann:

The GOP has offered some reforms in terms of the market. Increased competition, tort reform, etc.

Your problem is that any reform the GOP comes up with has to include free or cheap health care or it is not reform as far as you are concerned.

Here is an idea, everyone join the military. Then we can all get government health care through the VA.

Tell me, how are those IOU thingees doing in California? When the checks start to bounce to those health care providers the state has been sending money to, how long will they continue to provide care?

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 5:50 PM

Notice how Obama never sent his kids to a public school. Well, needless to say they won’t be seeing some government doctor either.

I agree, Terrye. That is exactly the scenario.

The only place I disagree?

We’re already there.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:51 PM

battleoflepanto1571 on July 16, 2009 at 5:47 PM

I like this:(paraprasing)
A hip replacement for a 90 year old is fantasy thinking

followed by

If any procedure leads to quality of life, then I think the procedure makes sense.

Animator Girl gave me an OH SNAP for pointing them out.

Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 5:52 PM

AnninCa:

Poor people dieing on sidewalks?

I call bs on that. I work for a health care agency. I see medicaid and medicare people everyday. This country spends billions on health care for the poor. No one is turned away to die because they are poor. No one.

I am sure that there are homeless people who do die on the streets, but believe it or not this silly plan of Obama’s will not help those people. They are not covered by anything in that plan. In fact there is talk of cutting medicaid and medicare to help pay for this silly ass plan that no one even understands.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 5:54 PM

Or else, we just land back in a class war. You’re willing to let “poor” people die on the sidewalks.

Point out exactly where that was said. You’re the one willing to let the elderly live in pain and die. Remember that 89yo malpractice suit or that 90yo in need of a hip replacement.

Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 5:55 PM

Tell me, how are those IOU thingees doing in California? When the checks start to bounce to those health care providers the state has been sending money to, how long will they continue to provide care?

CA is bankrupt. I agree with all of conservatives, this is due to unbridled liberal thinking.

We’re a disaster.

We pay people to take care of their own family members. Yes.

You read that right.

It’s a disaster. While you guys bash me for poking at ridiculous life-saving measures on the geritrics, who would probably say to you……”are you kidding me?”

I can point out the insanity in CA.

Same thing.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:56 PM

The democrats won’t sign a pledge to use their own healthcare program. Why?

elduende on July 16, 2009 at 5:57 PM

In fact there is talk of cutting medicaid and medicare to help pay for this silly ass plan that no one even understands.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 5:54 PM

it is called cost-shifting. The reduced medicare/medicaid hospital costs will be shifted to non medicare/medicaid patients and ultimately be borne by private insurance. This will raise their premium rates making the government plan appear cheaper.

Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 5:58 PM

I call bs on that. I work for a health care agency. I see medicaid and medicare people everyday. This country spends billions on health care for the poor. No one is turned away to die because they are poor. No one.

You are the one full of BS. I watch regularly as there is story after story about the hospitals dumping people off in front of the Mission in LA.

They have been sued for doing so. They have LOST these suits.

And I saw yet another story of just the same thing 3 weeks ago.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:59 PM

People like Barney Frank will make healthcare decisions for your family but refuse to use the same healthcare program they are imposing on us.

elduende on July 16, 2009 at 5:59 PM

Or else, we just land back in a class war. You’re willing to let “poor” people die on the sidewalks.

Just not you, eh?

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:49 PM

I’m in CA, too, and have never seen a poor person turned away from care. In fact, most of the people I’ve seen during numerous expensive procedure waiting times have been those on MediCal, or just randoms with no real SS# or anything. They are never turned away.

The cruelest people I’ve seen are my in laws in SF, they don’t even SEE the bums anymore and just walk right past them. Huge Obama supporters btw. I can’t do that. I’ll at least make eye contact…that’s why SF is on my No Travel List.

NTWR on July 16, 2009 at 5:59 PM

The democrats won’t sign a pledge to use their own healthcare program. Why?

Amen! I think this where conservatives and liberals meet.

Nose to nose.

You think the program works?

Live by it.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 6:00 PM

Ann:

No, we are not already there. People have a longer life span in this country today because they receive some of the best health care in the world. Back in the good old days, most people did not have health insurance. People will say that we did not need it because the costs were not so high…true, but then again, people used to just get sick and die. Just like that.

People did not put people in nursing homes. There were virtually no treatments other than surgery for cancer. Leukemia was a death sentence. A bad accident would lead to infection and death more often than rehabilitation. There was no disability insurance for people who did survive those accidents either. In 1954 my father was almost killed on an oil rig in an accident. The rig paid for his health care in return for a promise from my mother not to sue.

The man had a broken leg, a broken arm, broken ribs, a punctured lung, a cracked skull, a shattered knee cap, a broken hip and internal injuries and in two years he was back to work with a limp. It was that or starve. So this stuff about how we are already there is just nonsense.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 6:00 PM

Gotta love the AnninCA thread.

Man, even the smart ones take the bait.

True_King on July 16, 2009 at 6:00 PM

It’s a disaster. While you guys bash me for poking at ridiculous life-saving measures on the geritrics, who would probably say to you……”are you kidding me?”

I can point out the insanity in CA.

Same thing.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:56 PM

No it is not and how dare you equate human life with stupid government spending.

Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 6:00 PM

They have been sued for doing so. They have LOST these suits.

And I saw yet another story of just the same thing 3 weeks ago.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:59 PM

Hate to do this, but I watch LA news, too, sooo links or it never happened…

NTWR on July 16, 2009 at 6:01 PM

Surely there is gray in this area.

Or else, we just land back in a class war. You’re willing to let “poor” people die on the sidewalks.

Just not you, eh?

That reinforces the current image of the GOP. BTW, I think that image is complete BS.

But may you like it.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:49 PM

That’s my point exactly. The “health care plan” is really just another round of picking winners and losers. As always, the current image of the GOP is actually a reflection of what liberal policies actually are. The health care plan is ABSOLUTELY class warfare. That’s why the conservatives are against it.

Lots of conservatives have brought forward lots of ideas to help provide more choice, at a lower cost. Making health care more portable would be a start. Making plans more flexible. Reducing the number of automatic triggers in the system. “What plan are you on? Oh, then you can get the $5,000 treatment instead of the $200 alternative.” Making consumers more aware of the cost of care would be an excellent step.

The government plan will do none of these things.

But Ann, you still haven’t answered a couple questions: how much money will this plan save?

And at what age will you agree to deny yourself additional healthcare that you deem appropriate, as you indicate others should do?

hawksruleva on July 16, 2009 at 6:03 PM

Gotta love the AnninCA thread.

Man, even the smart ones take the bait.

True_King on July 16, 2009 at 6:00 PM

Yup… back to actually making a difference. See you all elsewhere.

NTWR on July 16, 2009 at 6:03 PM

Ann:

I call bs again. The fact that some hospital sent some people to a mission does not mean that is common practice in this country to let the poor die. Chances are under this plan you are so feverishly pushing those people would still have been dumped off on that mission assuming they ever saw a doctor at all.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 6:03 PM

People have a longer life span in this country today because they receive some of the best health care in the world.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 6:00 PM

Our life span is not significantly better than in many countries with a lower average cost of health care. But I think one could argue that our QUALITY of life is quite a bit better. Who wants to spend 2% of their lifetime waiting, in pain, to receive medical treatment?

hawksruleva on July 16, 2009 at 6:06 PM

You are the one full of BS. I watch regularly as there is story after story about the hospitals dumping people off in front of the Mission in LA.

Oddly enough we don’t see these stories covering the front of every newspaper or leading the evening news night after night.

Anecdotal tales of horror are good for scaring the kids, but without context and without a basic understanding that no system is perfect, these stories become larger than they really are.

Bishop on July 16, 2009 at 6:07 PM

hawksruleva:

Well, no doubt that is true.

My only point is that the idea that somehow we are in some awful place compared to the way it used to be is just not true. Most people who say those things do not know what it used to be like.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 6:11 PM

Maybe they are dumping those people off because California is going broke and can not pay the bills. If it happened at all.

And besides, how will this plan help those people?

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 6:13 PM

Our life span is not significantly better than in many countries with a lower average cost of health care. But I think one could argue that our QUALITY of life is quite a bit better. Who wants to spend 2% of their lifetime waiting, in pain, to receive medical treatment?

hawksruleva on July 16, 2009 at 6:06 PM

there are data issues that adversly impact US statistics. For example, many other countries do not include preemies in infant mortality and we do; hence our statistics are often lower.

Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 6:14 PM

it is called cost-shifting.
Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 5:58 PM

Bingo. Costs shifted from care for elderly and poor via Medicare/Medicaid to care for general population via public plan, resulting in pitting the strong against the weak for healthcare resources.

txmomof6 on July 16, 2009 at 6:15 PM

LOL* Believe it or not, one of my favorite lovers was a surgeon.

He was so detailed. :)

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:40 PM

.
“If you want total security, go to prison. There you’re fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking… is freedom.” –Dwight D. Eisenhower

Rae on July 16, 2009 at 5:41 PM

.
SOLUTION: AnninCA, Just think how “detailed” a surgeon in prison would be…

NightmareOnKStreet on July 16, 2009 at 6:16 PM

Thanks ladyingray for the two lists. Started at 5:15 and got through to all but 2 (Bunning and Schumer) in one way or the other…so phones not very busy. The rudest of them was Kyl (ask to put on hold, then cut-off, had to leave message) and Roberts (music came on while I was talking). You want to know…ding, ding, ding the nicest was the kid at Debbie Stabenow’s office. MI is the winner today.

spacewife on July 16, 2009 at 6:18 PM

there are data issues that adversly impact US statistics. For example, many other countries do not include preemies in infant mortality and we do; hence our statistics are often lower.

Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 6:14 PM

Or high mortalities for trauma and violence. Also, I don’t think if you die on the waiting list for treatment your death counts in the morbidity/mortality statistics.

txmomof6 on July 16, 2009 at 6:19 PM

Our life span is not significantly better than in many countries with a lower average cost of health care. But I think one could argue that our QUALITY of life is quite a bit better. Who wants to spend 2% of their lifetime waiting, in pain, to receive medical treatment?

Well, maybe that’s what it takes. Like I share I’ve been a llifelong proponet. I definitely have lost to commercial and lobbyists.

And they are incredibly important. Just check out the blue-dawgs.

Their main contributers are healthcare.

Frankly, I think that’s the only industry making money today that can buy congress.

Just my 2 cents.

I also think I’m on the right page on this. They will run out of bucks to satisfy reelection needs.

And that’s when true reform will come.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 6:19 PM

The only time government moves quickly is when it’s creating a bloody mess.

redfoxbluestate on July 16, 2009 at 5:42 PM

+1

gatorboy on July 16, 2009 at 6:24 PM

“Bipartisan,” eh? I’m sure someone else has already said it, but obviously we’re going to be hearing from Mmes. Collins and Snowe about what a good bill this is. Oh goodie.

evergreen on July 16, 2009 at 6:24 PM

Also, I don’t think if you die on the waiting list for treatment your death counts in the morbidity/mortality statistics.

txmomof6 on July 16, 2009 at 6:19 PM

A++

NightmareOnKStreet on July 16, 2009 at 6:25 PM

Gotta love the AnninCA thread.

Man, even the smart ones take the bait.

True_King on July 16, 2009 at 6:00 PM

AnninCAdinfinituM

dont taze me bro on July 16, 2009 at 6:26 PM

I call bs again. The fact that some hospital sent some people to a mission does not mean that is common practice in this country to let the poor die. Chances are under this plan you are so feverishly pushing those people would still have been dumped off on that mission assuming they ever saw a doctor at all.

Terrey, I assure you. They do dump people. They were blocked by Congress.

And then, they did it again.

I can only imagine that it has reached a point where it is is cheaper to take the hit from the Federal level than not dump the paitents.

They are still dumping patients. We’re talking about people who need to be in lifelong care. That is all that is left.

And today’s system apparently rewards dumping them on the sidewaks in front of the mission.

I don’t get the specifics.

But, I do know……that’s realty.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 6:27 PM

Bread and circus for the masses, here we come.

TheUnrepentantGeek on July 16, 2009 at 6:28 PM

Or high mortalities for trauma and violence. Also, I don’t think if you die on the waiting list for treatment your death counts in the morbidity/mortality statistics.

txmomof6 on July 16, 2009 at 6:19 PM

I forget the statistics, but qualitatively I would tend to agree about traumatic deaths – bot the obvious ones from violent crimes and the ones from traffic deaths on streetches of road like I-80 from Omaha to Salt Lake City. You just don’t have that in other countries.

If you die then you enter the mortality rate.

Also, for example, Japan had no AIDs related deaths for decades because their government didn’t acknowledge it existed.

The US is also geographically larger which creates care issues.

BTW, any guess what the third leading cause of death was in the US in 1900? Dysentary. Yes, indoor plumbing has probably done more for life expectancy than anything else.

Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 6:29 PM

Well, maybe that’s what it takes. Like I share I’ve been a llifelong proponet. I definitely have lost to commercial and lobbyists.

And they are incredibly important. Just check out the blue-dawgs.

Their main contributers are healthcare.

So do you think those evil lobbyists control the opinions of the folks here at HA? You don’t think it is possible that
the threat of change on an issue that affects every living American, i.e. their health, can be encouraging ordinary people to say stay out of my healthcare to those Blue dogs?

txmomof6 on July 16, 2009 at 6:29 PM

OK, I’m officially out of this discussion.

Obviously, I PASSIONATELY disagree.

But, the anti-side needs their time to relax and bash.

I will return to bug you all on this, but……..not today.

And do know, I’ve lost on this my lifetime. It has, as I predicted, gotten worse.

But…….IF I lose, I lose.

That is democracy.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 6:35 PM

Terrey, I assure you. They do dump people.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 6:27 PM

I remember seeing this on our local news. But it was after they were healed. In other words they came into the ER, were treated, then basically released. They were not refused care. So, AnninCA, what exactly is your point? They were treated in the ER, but had no place to go. So is this the fault of the healthcare system? Maybe some should be in psych hospitals; but it was Carter that unlocked those doors. WHAT IS YOUR POINT IN THIS??? MY REAR-VIEW MIRROR FELL OFF AND NOBODY CAN GLUE IT BACK SO IT LASTS LONGER THAN A WEEK!!! WHO IN THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM CAN I FREAKING BLAME FOR THAT AnninCA??????? WHO, GIVE ME A WEB NUMBER!!!!!!

Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 6:36 PM

LOL* Believe it or not, one of my favorite lovers was a surgeon.

He was so detailed. :)

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:40 PM

Whatever you do, please don’t bore us with the countless others that didn’t make the list.

Guardian on July 16, 2009 at 6:37 PM

Obviously, I am PASSIONATELY disagree stupid

there, fixed it for you

Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 6:37 PM

Ann:

I am saying that even if that were true, it has nothing to do with government funded and supported health care. If these people are so poor that they are left to the missions, then they are being covered by medicaid. It has nothing to do with this plan.

But the idea that poor people are routinely refused care because there is no universal health care is just absurd.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 6:39 PM

Give it UP!

We just need to put this into place. Move on. We’ll refine it as we go.

You’ve got to be kidding.

Liberals need to realize that this, and the cap-and-tax boondoggle, are Obama’s Iraq War. Massively expensive millstones being hung around the country’s neck, with even more pervasive effect on our daily lives in increased government intrusion, being foisted on us with scant evidence and against popular opinion by an ideological cadre who doesn’t give a shit whether it actually accomplishes the stated goals. Or accomplishes anything, other than satisfying their political base and their itch for power.

So hey, how did that “we’ll refine it as we go” thing work in Iraq?

evergreen on July 16, 2009 at 6:40 PM

We will refine it as we go?

My God, it is no wonder that California is bankrupt. Tell you what, Ann, when you goes out there on the left coast get this figured out and make it work, then the rest of us will sign on.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 6:42 PM

And Ann, most of those blue dogs come from conservative districts. They are not responding to the lobbyists, they are responding to the irate people leaving messages at their offices.

And what is more, those health care providers have to make money if they are going to make payroll. I know that is hard for some people to understand, but the truth is there are all kinds of lobbyists. The AARP are lobbyists for Chrisake. The NAACP too, the list goes on.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 6:46 PM

So I guess if AnninCa goes off in a huff because she can’t win an argument, the thread dies…:)

txmomof6 on July 16, 2009 at 6:56 PM

he hopes to have a bipartisan deal on a health care reform bill by the end of the day

First off; Why? Why? Why? The only kind of reform the democrats will accept is reform meaning more government control. That means any kind of deal is just a softened version of what they want now with the rest to be quietly implemented in in the future.

huddling for about two hours with five Finance Committee members

Second; Who are these republicans and what are their phone numbers? Finance committee? That means they are helping the democrats be more creative in the way they are going to tax us. Please, if anyone knows who these republicans are lets get all over the bastards.

peacenprosperity on July 16, 2009 at 7:04 PM

but it was Carter that unlocked those doors

It was johnson but you’re point is still right on.

peacenprosperity on July 16, 2009 at 7:06 PM

Frankly, I think that’s the only industry making money today that can buy congress.

Actually GOVERNMENT may be the biggest industry controlling congress. Go check out how much money is spent by the different government departments on lobbyists. They take our tax dollars and then spend hundreds of millions giving it back to the corrupt congress to get more money. The department of the interior, whatever maintains the national forests, spent almost a 100 million on lobbyists who happened to be bruce babbits kids. So quit your whining about American citizens using there own money to get what they need out of congress.

peacenprosperity on July 16, 2009 at 7:13 PM

And that’s when true reform will come.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 6:19 PM

True reform? The only reason people like you think anything needs reforming is because the democrats said it did. Get rid of the illegals and the cost of health care will drop dramatically.

darwin on July 16, 2009 at 7:15 PM

We need to really get it together and stop this disaster of a healthcare plan from happening.

What is the GOP doing about this?

Don’t we have any money?

Where are the TV Ads exposing this nightmare of a healthcare plan?

MaximusConfessor on July 16, 2009 at 7:44 PM

Terrey, I assure you. They do dump people. They were blocked by Congress.

And then, they did it again.

I can only imagine that it has reached a point where it is is cheaper to take the hit from the Federal level than not dump the paitents.

They are still dumping patients. We’re talking about people who need to be in lifelong care. That is all that is left.

And today’s system apparently rewards dumping them on the sidewaks in front of the mission.

I don’t get the specifics.

But, I do know……that’s realty.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 6:27 PM

Michelle Obama’s hospital in Chicago was accused of patient dumping. MO and Axlerod teamed up at the hospital to ‘patch up’ the POOR patients and get them to a FREE clinic in order to save money. They treated the paying customers, of course:

Following the Adams incident, the American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) blasted Mrs. Obama and Mr. Axelrod’s grand plan. The group released a statement expressing “grave concerns that the University of Chicago’s policy toward emergency patients is dangerously close to ‘patient dumping,’ a practice made illegal by the Emergency Medical Labor and Treatment Act (EMTALA)” – signed by President Reagan, by the way – “and reflected an effort to ‘cherry pick’ wealthy patients over poor.”

(michellemalkin.com June 19, 2009)

TN Mom on July 16, 2009 at 7:58 PM

Called Grassley, both in DC and CR
Called Loebsack, both in DC and CR
Called Webb
emailed Perriello

continue…..

ted c on July 16, 2009 at 8:03 PM

SEN Grassley’s office said today that he is adamantly against a nationalized health care or public plan as proposed. He’s the ranking member on the Senate Finance Committee, so I don’t know (nor did his office know) where this “bipartisan” deal stuff is coming from.

I asked them about the picture on Politico w/ Grassley and Baucus–with the headline of “bipartisan deal close?” implying that Grassley was on board. Well, that’s not true–Grassley is NOT on board with a public plan according to his office.

ted c on July 16, 2009 at 8:22 PM

Ya know, I’m beyond demoralized at this point. I’ll simply ask again, if all of this stuff is as bad as we say and think it is – that our country as we know it is being destroyed before our eyes – if now isn’t the time for a seriously violent and ugly revolt, when is? What *else* would have to happen?

Do the thought experiment – what *will* it take for *you* to decide it’s time? Are we there yet?

You think waiting for 2010 or 2012 elections is the better choice? You see what’s been done in less than 6 months already – where do you think we’ll be by then, in terms of deficit, nationalized industry, unemployment, inflation, skyrocketing energy costs (along with everything else as those costs become part of ever-increasing prices for everything), destruction of our healthcare system, etc?

Yeah. Let’s wait for the next election; great idea.

Midas on July 16, 2009 at 8:28 PM

if any procedure leads to quality of life, then I think the procedure makes sense…AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 5:38 PM
for example THAT HIP REPLACEMENT FOR A 90 YEAR OLD??????????????????????………Jed_Eckert on July 16, 2009 at 5:44 PM

If you’re able to still get around after operation it is. Nobody knows one day to next how long they will live.

Herb on July 16, 2009 at 8:29 PM

Do the thought experiment – what *will* it take for *you* to decide it’s time? Are we there yet?

Sure, it’s always been time. Freedom and Liberty are at risk and we have to fight for them.

ted c on July 16, 2009 at 8:43 PM

If there turns out to be a bipartisan deal on this health bill, then I say vote all the A**H&**s out! And I mean ALL of them. I never thought I’d say this, but, maybe we have to take it to the streets! This is our health and lives their playing with, not some f—–g power game. Time to get the life-long politicians out and get some people in who know what the hell they are doing!

Hobbes on July 16, 2009 at 9:15 PM

They’ll pass pure crap. Just like they always do. Washington DC is a joke. A real bad joke.

Griz on July 16, 2009 at 9:31 PM

Every Taxpayer who thinks government run healthcare is a good idea should have to spend a year living their life like a welfare recipient, because that is what this is going to be like. That is what the future will hold for all of us, but we will be working and paying into our own Government control fund.

“All your decisions are belong to us” …but it won’t be funny.

Call your Senators. And when you are done with that call your Governors office, your State Senator and State Representative. If we cannot depend on our Federal Government officials to protect & defend us we must turn to our State.

batterup on July 16, 2009 at 9:34 PM

Thought experiemnt:

Your health care provided by unionized government workers who have no incentive to progress based on merit.

daesleeper on July 16, 2009 at 10:11 PM

Oh good, a bipartisan shafting of the American people. All I can say, again, is: when it becomes obvious that there is no point in working mostly for the government and their dependents, I’ll John Galt my way to Bondi Beach.

bayview on July 16, 2009 at 10:35 PM

his if for AnninCA and her ilk:

“If you want total security, go to prison. There you’re fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking… is freedom.”
–Dwight D. Eisenhower

Rae on July 16, 2009 at 5:41 PM

I can vouch for that. I was in jail 3 days and put on weight. I had a blanket too and a mattress.

If I was there for a year I would have formed the first Strat-O-Matic Face-To-Face League. I could have been the Commish.

Sapwolf on July 16, 2009 at 10:39 PM

Hey anyone want to list AnninCA’s greatest comments today?

Here’s my vote:

“Someone’s mother died of negligent medical care. She was 89 years old. Can you believe the child sued? The mother was 89! She was almost dead anyway right?”

battleoflepanto1571 on July 16, 2009 at 5:47 PM

Yep. Disgusting of AnninCA.

She is a fan of euthanasia, abortion, and anything for convenience.

She is another dime a dozen leftist who believes the pain is bad and pleasure must be good.

A cold utilitarian deep down, but doesn’t know it yet.

I had to deal with her types in CA for years. Same utilitarian types who you don’t want to sniffle around because they’ll try to pillow you in your sleep.

My family jokes about my sister the same way. The unwritten rule is always act normal and healthy around her and you definitely DON’t want to be really sick in the hospital when she visits. She would compassion you right out of this world.

Sick people who think killing people is therapeutic and will help the world.

Sapwolf on July 16, 2009 at 10:45 PM

By the way, my health insurance is just fine.

DON’T F**K WITH IT!

Sapwolf on July 16, 2009 at 10:47 PM

But, I do know……that’s realty.

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 6:27 PM

You want reality? Come visit Mexico with me.

By the way, many old people struggle because their children don’t look after them because they are out partying and having a great time. Don’t tell me they don’t. My queer uncle didn’t do jack for my grandparents their last 10 years.

His priority is sodomy and expensive tastes, and fighting for gay marriage.

Sapwolf on July 16, 2009 at 10:50 PM

And don’t think we won’t have incidents like Denzel Washington going postal at a hospital like in that movie.

That is gonna happen more often as what we consider normal care is rationed.

Better bring your CC’ed handgun to the emergency room in case some whacko loses it when they tell him his 3-year old daughter can’t get a checkup on why her stomach is in pain, or why her leg can’t be fixed for a break, and he attempts to shoot the place up.

Sapwolf on July 16, 2009 at 10:53 PM

Ann:

I am saying that even if that were true, it has nothing to do with government funded and supported health care. If these people are so poor that they are left to the missions, then they are being covered by medicaid. It has nothing to do with this plan.

But the idea that poor people are routinely refused care because there is no universal health care is just absurd.

Terrye on July 16, 2009 at 6:39 PM

Poor people GET Medicaid. EVERYBODY who has done even one second of charity work knows that. They ALL get it free.

This whole thing is BS. It is a narrow band of the working poor of roughly 5-10 million at most who may be out of insurance. But they get emergency care anyway.

YOu don’t piss away the world’s premiere healthcare system just because less than 2% may be out of insurance. Give them a tax credit for all medical expenses up to $5k so they can shop for the right coverage they need.

Sapwolf on July 16, 2009 at 10:58 PM

AnninCA on July 16, 2009 at 6:35 PM

YOu REALLY REALLY LOSE!!!!!!

Why don’t I simply sign a piece of paper as the new healthcare plan and make it look official with a frame. It can say Obamacare for everyone. You can then pretend it is rreal and make your feelings better and nail it on a wall and then you are very compassionate because you know that you insured the entire world with FREE care.

Sapwolf on July 16, 2009 at 11:02 PM

I’ll even throw in a Sarah Palin Vermont Teddy Bear in a doctor’s outfit. Soft furry and cuddly which will make you feel warm.

Ann, stop it with the feelings and start THINKING for once.

Sapwolf on July 16, 2009 at 11:04 PM

It is truly granduer to listen to the wonders of the talkers on this entire HA. I love them all and I’m one of them. Fine. NOW WHAT. We all stinking agree. There is NOTHING new. We hate what is happening to our wonderful incredible country. YES, the country founded by the likes of Washington and Adams and on and on for Gods sake. AND we are letting it slip betwixt our fingers daily. This stinking guy has NO scruples. When does Obama lie???? Every single time he talks…. I am crying about my country. It is a fight for love and glory…. we were there and we were the greatest force for GOOD in the world. We gave more, educated more, helped more and loved more…. now we are letting this fcng imbecile get between us and destroy us. I see and know all of the above. I simply don’t know what to do. NO I don’t think it is Hitler. Close, but not a Hitler. I know he is not a Hitler or Stalin. Maybe not even a socialist. HE, however, does NOT give a shit about America. He has agenda which is power for as long as possible. That is Acorn and all the people he can gather to make his next trip happen. He is an opportunist and a mainstream minor mentality. Please someone find an answer…..

highninside on July 16, 2009 at 11:08 PM

If there turns out to be a bipartisan deal on this health bill, then I say vote all the A**H&**s out! And I mean ALL of them. I never thought I’d say this, but, maybe we have to take it to the streets! This is our health and lives their playing with, not some f—–g power game. Time to get the life-long politicians out and get some people in who know what the hell they are doing!

Hobbes on July 16, 2009 at 9:15 PM

\
Yes. We need to riot on this one. If this passes, we may not recover anyway.

I am not gonna let the government FORCE me to buy insurance.

They can F’OFF.

Sapwolf on July 16, 2009 at 11:10 PM

little barry is freaking out. No wonder he is trying to re-capture his campaign magic. I can only pray that this health care bullshit doesn’t get rahmed through, or we’ll finished. Call Olympia Snowe’s office, say you are from Maine ( get some random zip code off the internet) and swamp her office. She will cave. Act Now……Act like ACORN. FIGHT THIS BULLSHIT OR WE’RE DONE AS A NATION!!!!!

texaninfidel on July 16, 2009 at 11:32 PM

I heard Orin Hatch giving Chris Dodd oral favors on NPR this morning. Seriously. Hatch was kissing Dodd butt on health care and related issues like it was shooting fancy chocolate truffles. It was disgusting.

Mr. Joe on July 16, 2009 at 11:43 PM

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