Obamaweek: You know who’d make a great Pope?
posted at 11:00 am on July 12, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
It seems as Barack Obama’s polling numbers increasingly come down to Earth, his media apologists get more desperate to hail him as the secular Messiah. Perhaps no effort gets quite so embarrassingly sycophantic as Newsweek’s decision to print this mash note from Kathleen Kennedy Townsend on the occasion of Obama’s first visit with Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican this week. Townsend argues that Obama is literally more Catholic than the Pope. Here are Newsweek’s alpha and omega:
In truth, though, Obama’s pragmatic approach to divisive policy (his notion that we should acknowledge the good faith underlying opposing viewpoints) and his social-justice agenda reflect the views of American Catholic laity much more closely than those vocal bishops and pro-life activists. When Obama meets the pope tomorrow, they’ll politely disagree about reproductive freedoms and homosexuality, but Catholics back home won’t care, because they know Obama’s on their side. In fact, Obama’s agenda is closer to their views than even the pope’s. …
Notre Dame awarded the president an honorary degree because it saw the need to highlight the best of Catholic teaching as applied to politics: the ability to open the eyes of those who would prefer to keep them closed, and to open the hearts of those who would prefer not to know the pain that their actions cause. The pope has a lot to learn about Catholic politics in America. Barack Obama can teach him.
In between these two paragraphs, Townsend fills the pages with the usual liberal complaints about the church, including gay rights, abortion, and — this is the best part — a complaint that the church hierarchy doesn’t listen to the congregations and change religious doctrine to match public opinion. She lauds Obama for his ability to “listen” to other points of view, apparently missing the months-long repetition that no one had an alternative to Porkulus when Republicans and Democrats both tried to get votes for smaller and more intelligently-crafted alternatives.
Townsend makes the same mistake about religion that many other Catholics (and not just Catholics) make about it. A church isn’t a democracy, nor is it a nation. The Catholic Church serves what its sees as eternal truths about God, Jesus Christ, and the world, and invites those who believe similarly to join. No one is forced to remain a Catholic anywhere in the world, nor are Lutherans, Episcopalians, and so on. Certainly one can disagree on policy and practices, as many Catholics do, but on doctrine, the church does not take polls.
Thus, one can agree on the doctrine of social justice but disagree on the best policies to achieve it. One can agree on the dignity of human life and still disagree on issues like incarceration, executions (which, contrary to popular belief, is not proscribed by Catholic doctrine), charity for the poor, and the economic policies of free nations. But someone who believes that infants born during botched abortions should not be protected by a law requiring the abortionists to seek independent medical help for them is acting contrary to Catholic doctrine, which is and should be immutable.
At least Obama doesn’t claim to be Catholic, even if Townsend thinks he’s more Catholic than Benedict. Townsend wants a church that bends to the will of the mob, which isn’t a church at all but a social club or a political party. Let Obama remain the head of his political party, and perhaps Catholics like Townsend should pay more attention to the church’s teachings — or find a social club to join instead.
Blowback
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Considering Father Kidgrabber I don’t think the Catholic Church can take the “moral high ground” about anything for a long while.
Jeff from WI on July 12, 2009 at 2:33 PM
Kennedy’s writing is so outrageous that words simply don’t describe it. The priest this morning said that it was a good thing that Newsweek editors weren’t running things. Amen to that. And, by the way, Jeff from WI, sure there were bad priests in the Catholic Church, but I’ll bet you that you’ll find many more decent, caring and compassionate priests than not. Besides, no Catholic (well, at least not those liberal kinds) sanctions abortions. That’s murder…
chai on July 12, 2009 at 2:36 PM
And here we have the legacy of the wise decision of the Notre Dame faculty – liberal Catholics using the conferment of the degree to justify their departure from Catholic doctrine they don’t agree with.
I finally got a chance a couple of months ago to learn how my liberal Catholic in-laws justified their vote for the anti-abortion activist Obama – “Well, nobody’s perfect.” When I pointed out to them that, per the Catechism, active participation in anything promoting abortions (especially when there is a pro-life alternative) makes them subject to excommunication, they just shrugged. They literally do not care about abortion, even though they call themselves “Catholic.” They are fanatically anti-war and thought Cindy Sheehan was just the bee’s knees so Obama had them at “close Gitmo”.
inmypajamas on July 12, 2009 at 2:39 PM
I have never blamed the Catholic Church for the sins of the few. The priest scandal is terrible, but I would NEVER suggest it is central to the teachings of Catholicism. . . therefore, not really a result of anything but the sinners themselves. It’s terrible, but not the fault of Catholicism.
ThackerAgency on July 12, 2009 at 2:43 PM
I wonder how many Catholics have left the church
dodue(FIFY) to it’s decided “left turn” starting almost 50 years ago.Jeff from WI on July 12, 2009 at 1:57 PM
When I was in college,(geez, only 6 years ago) I wrote in the margin of one of my notebooks “Catholic and Conservative:Can it be done?” because I was tired of reading the anti-war and anti-captialism from this one old priest in our local Catholic newsletter. Most happily, he went to God and left his tired words here to rot.
thebrokenrattle on July 12, 2009 at 2:45 PM
OK, since you say I’m misrepresenting them, I’ll use your words. . .
You say ‘fair wage’. Who decides what a ‘fair wage’ is? Your priest? Because if the Catholic Church is involved in such decisions, your eternal soul is at stake. ‘One should give voluntarily’ meaning if you give nothing, you are going to hell. How much is enough then? How would I know? Would my priest know?
Basically these are issues that the Church (any church) shouldn’t be involved in. The Church should be for preaching the Gospel and bringing people to Christ. PERIOD. The church shouldn’t be deciding whether or not you gave enough to go to heaven, but the Catholic Church does.
ThackerAgency on July 12, 2009 at 2:51 PM
It always comes back to that doesn’t it?
There is no defense for what happened and what was done by some Church leaders to cover it up. Name one faithful Catholic who tried to defend it or who was not sick at heart over it. I don’t believe you can.
Holding up imperfect humans as a way to discredit the Church as a whole shows that you, like so many, do not understand the Church. Christ never promised that everyone in the Church would be perfect or that there would never be a sinner to lead her. That would have been impossible as all men are imperfect sinners.
No, what Christ promised was that though the very gates of Hell would threaten her, the Church would never fail. Now, I don’t know about you, but I can’t imagine anything more hellish than nominal Catholics support of abortion or homosexual priests using their position to prey on young men.
Jvette on July 12, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Not Church policy. Don’t forget that psychologists thought, until about 10 years ago, that pedophilia was a treatable disease — that those “afflicted” could be retrained.
What Church which teaches forgiveness of sins would not, when confronted with such scientific findings, use them to fix the problems?
We now know otherwise — that these psychologists who classified pedophilia as curable also chose to class homosexuality as normal. Faux science.
As a result, the Church has likewise changed in how it deals with such possibilities. Do you know that it’s common in most parishes for two priests to hear confession, or even to have group confessions? That no single adult (priest or layperson) is ever permitted unsupervised single contact with children? [I'm a CCD teacher and I got fingerprinted and security checked and I am required to leave my classroom door open for the entire lesson.]
As for us being “oppressed poor”, I’d rather “man up” and do the penance than to leave others to do it for me. I remember when the Methodists had their Pacific Homes scandal in the early 1980′s — they could have left their churches rather than paying the onerous settlement, but all the Methodists I know chose to stay. I still have a whole bunch of “Methodist pot holders” (as I call them) which I bought at rather inflated prices to help those people out. I’ve since revised my opinion on the inflated prices since then, because the pot holders are still going strong 30 years on, with nary a burned finger. The Methodists “manned up”, and I have their example to steer by.
unclesmrgol on July 12, 2009 at 2:53 PM
Apparently, “Is the Pope Catholic?” is not a rhetorical question.
Or maybe Kathleen Kennedy Townsend is just a rhetorical Catholic.
ThereGoesTheNeighborhood on July 12, 2009 at 2:55 PM
So you think Obama has the high moral ground relative to the Church? After all, “high” is relative, is it not?
unclesmrgol on July 12, 2009 at 2:57 PM
To all: Thacker’s a troll who has a longstanding, insane and intractable hatred of Catholicism and Catholics. He’ll say whatever he can think of to defame them, truth is simply not a concern for him.
Still, to keep others from believing his execrable deceits:
The Church favors neither unfettered capitalism as it encourages greed and exploitation, or complete socialism as it violates human rights. Nothing any Pope has said since has contradicted Rerum Novarum:
“Hence, it is clear that the main tenet of socialism, community of goods, must be utterly rejected, since it only injures those whom it would seem meant to benefit, is directly contrary to the natural rights of mankind, and would introduce confusion and disorder into the commonweal. The first and most fundamental principle, therefore, if one would undertake to alleviate the condition of the masses, must be the inviolability of private property.”
-Rerum Novarum, Leo XIII, 1891
theCork on July 12, 2009 at 2:58 PM
Had is pluperfect — action completed and ended in the past. Does he have them now?
unclesmrgol on July 12, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Jvette on July 12, 2009 at 2:52 PM
You realize, that statement was done, “for effect”. I certainly know no real practicing Catholic condones what priests did, or the Churches cover up. But it should cause those church leaders in Rome to stop and realize that 40 plus years of bowing to the liberal wishes of so many American Catholics, as well as the liberal priests that lead them, did NO good in keeping, let alone expanding the church membership. I grew up Catholic, I saw the hard left turn. Now I belong to what once I’d proudly call a very conservative protestant denomination, that’s considering some of the same softening of their conservative ideals and it sickens me.
Jeff from WI on July 12, 2009 at 3:00 PM
+10
theCork on July 12, 2009 at 3:01 PM
Is lying a sin in your Christian faith? If so, this is a lie so you better go confess to your priest or you’ll be in hell right along with me (since you think only Catholics are going to heaven).
‘intractable hatred’ must equal complete disagreement with everything they propose other than Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection. . . and a willingness to tell you so.
I’m sorry that I disagree with the tenets of your faith as you disagree with mine. I don’t act superior the way most Catholics I come across do. They claim that they don’t act superior. . . but when I catch them and call them out, their response is that I’m a ‘bigot’.
I’m not a bigot. I’m a Christian and I call it as I see it.
ThackerAgency on July 12, 2009 at 3:02 PM
What exactly does that mean?
If one gives one’s entire life to Christ, which issue would then not be of concern to the Church? A person who loves Christ, loves also his neighbor and would therefore not want to harm him. Instead, he would work to help him. It’s idealistic, I know, but if we all lived the truth in perfect union with Christ, these issues would be moot.
Obviously, if we were all perfect, there would be no need of the Ten Commandments nor for Jesus to die to redeem us. Since we are all imperfect, there must be some arbiter of the truth, some entity to hold in safety what that truth is and how we are to live it. That is the Church.
Now, the Church and the state are different entities with different functions. The Church has the mission of bringing us to Christ, to protect and serve our souls. The state has the duty to protect and serve our bodies. We are members of both entities. Problems arise when we separate the two within ourselves.
Jesus said to give unto Caesar what was his. Catholics do not oppose the government, nor we do deny that some taxes and regulations are necessary for the general welfare of all citizens. Our political actions should reflect our spiritual and moral code.
So that is my answer. We move within and act in this world with an understanding of the reality of the next. The Church does not decide who has given enough to attain heaven as that is not the means by which one does so. We are the masters of our own eternal life. Jesus has given us the means, but we must follow the path.
Jvette on July 12, 2009 at 3:14 PM
My last Tea Party sign said, “Liberal Media is Enemy #1 of America”. Newsweek is beyond the pale publishing this trash.
MalindaH on July 12, 2009 at 3:16 PM
As you must well know, redistribution of wealth is indeed a Catholic tenet of faith, but the redistribution must be personal; such redistribution is called variously charity or almsgiving (“By their fruits shall you know them.”). Taking someone else’s wealth (whether by personal or governmental force) and redistributing it is not charity or almsgiving, it is, as you aptly put it, theft.
You need to put quotes around the word “Catholic” to avoid arousing ire that we Catholics do not understand the difference between Caesar and God.
unclesmrgol on July 12, 2009 at 3:20 PM
Well, he does do a lot of pontificating and he is holier than thou.
Speakup on July 12, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Amen, Ed! I tweeted about this yesterday and said “Any Catholic who believes that has no business being Catholic”. As one of our Orthodox priests stated, “Today’s society believes the church should conform to the ways of the world. This is not true, the world is to conform to the church.”
http://www.teapartynation.com
tnmama on July 12, 2009 at 3:21 PM
And what exactly was your desired effect?
It seems to me it was to completely discredit the entire Church rather than just the sinful behavior of some. Be careful to not look too closely at the leaders of your current church, you may find sinners there and have to change to another. That whole looking for perfection in imperfect men can be a vicious circle.
Jvette on July 12, 2009 at 3:23 PM
That is happening already in the Protestant branch – homosexual ministers, female deacons and Sunday School teachers, and last but not least, moral relativism. The only plus side to Townsend’s opinion is that there is no Hell in which to burn. You all had better fix your religion before it is swept away.
Pelayo on July 12, 2009 at 3:26 PM
I really hope that Catholics reading here understand that I do consider them brothers and sisters in Christ no matter what they think of me. But I will bring up inconsistencies as I see them. . . not out of hatred at all, but out of a desire that everyone realize that salvation is not a product of an institution, but a gift from the Creator to all who accept it.
Don’t believe what ANYONE tells you about it. Not me, not a preacher, not a priest, and not even the pope. Read the Bible and establish a personal relationship with the One Living God on your own because he loves you and wants the best for you.
ONE OF my problems with the idea of a hierarchy and a pope at the top is because popes, bishops, and priests are PEOPLE. The next pope could very likely believe that abortion is acceptable. He could write an encyclical or ecumenical or epistle, or whatever has ‘authority’ other than the Bible in the Catholic Church that says abortion is OK. It WOULDN’T BE no matter what the pope personally believes.
Christianity is about Jesus’ sacrifice for everyone. The pope’s job should be expressing the joy of Christ to the world. . . not instructing people how to live. Tell Muslims that Jesus loves them and died for their sins. . . don’t tell them that they have a ‘great religion’. You won’t hear a Muslim leader say that Catholicism is a ‘great religion’. And if the ‘head of the Christian Church’ tells them that they have a great religion, why would they change? Especially knowing that changing could mean death for Muslims.
The rest of the world watches the pope for what ‘Christians’ believe. I watch him because I have to know what I’m going to have to explain away to Muslims I might witness to at some time in the future to try to bring them to Christ.
ThackerAgency on July 12, 2009 at 3:32 PM
As a protestant, my view is somewhat different. However I’ve seen nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that so focuses the attitude of worship that Obama supporters have as they approach their false god, Barack Hussein Obama. I have doctrinal differences with my Roman Catholic brothers, but the core of their faith and my own, is Jesus Christ. What is sickening is not just the fact that people like Kennedy are willing to worship their false god, but that their false god Obama BELIEVES HE IS DESERVING OF WORSHIP.
oldleprechaun on July 12, 2009 at 3:34 PM
Not the Catholic Church I know. Where do you attend Mass, anyway???
chai on July 12, 2009 at 3:40 PM
Seems to me that as the Catholic Church got more liberal the priests got more immoral. I have no way of knowing that but that is how it appears.
Now we are going in the opposite direction and the liberals are don’t like it.
Vince on July 12, 2009 at 3:44 PM
Ah, thacker, so many inconsistencies in that statement I hardly know where to begin. But, just allow me to thank you for being such a kind soul as to point out those in Catholicism.
Each and every Christian who reads the Bible and comes up with his own decision as to what is right and moral and constitutes following Jesus, is his own pope. Barack Obama claims Christianity, yet supports the leaving to die of babies who survive an attempted abortion. Gene Robinson preaches the Bible as a bishop in the Episcopalian faith yet openly lives a homosexual life. Oh, but the list could go on forever of those whose Bible says something completely different than every other Christian.
As a Catholic, I do not claim superiority. Jesus said to ST. Thomas, “Blessed are those who do not see yet believe”!
Now it’s interesting that Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for needing to see, nor did he say that those who see without believing are superior, just blessed.
I do look to the Church, not as the giver of salvation, but rather as a fountain of grace. She is the visible sign of Jesus, just as the Sacraments are the visible outward signs of inward grace. To think that Jesus would allow the head of His Church to say that abortion is morally acceptable, is to say that Jesus lied when he said the gates of Hell would never prevail against her.
Jvette on July 12, 2009 at 3:52 PM
I look forward to any response, unfortunately, I will not be hear to read them. I am off to Mass, you know that place where Catholics worship a little cookie after the priest says the magic words and we redistribute our wealth to rich bishops and hear the word of God distorted to support the evil teachings of a man made institution.
Do I have it about right?
Seriously, as always HA is the place to come for civil discourse and it has been a pleasure. God Bless us, everyone.
Jvette on July 12, 2009 at 3:57 PM
Obamaweek (ah, excuse me, Newsweek) has a long tradition of trashing Christianity every Easter, going out of their way to argue against the divine and the miraculous. That history — which both the editors and readers of Newsweek know well — makes Townsend’s article all the more offensive. The article has nothing to do with Catholicism. It is pure, shameless Obama worship, and I am amazed that even Obamaweek would run it.
jwolf on July 12, 2009 at 3:58 PM
One thing Catholics will never have to worry about is Obama becoming our Pope. Not to long ago at a Catholic funeral the priest said “we will not be so suprised at those who are not in Heaven as we will at those who are.”
fourdeucer on July 12, 2009 at 4:01 PM
“You are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build My Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Do you think Jesus was pontificating to himself when he said this?
The Pope is rightfully the supreme representative of Christianity here on earth. And he has at least one Muslim notched — how many do you have, Oh Master of Big Words and Little Deeds?
unclesmrgol on July 12, 2009 at 4:03 PM
The pope is the head of YOUR Church. The pope used to say that you could pay the church for forgiveness of sins. To believe that a PERSON who ascends to the position of pope is infallible is blasphemy. This is the problem.
I think you are kidding yourself if you believe that there aren’t people in the position to become the next pope that believe that abortion is OK.
Popes have been wrong a LOT because they are people.
If there was a pope that said abortion was OK, would you still be Catholic? Jvette, I don’t doubt your sincerity. I also don’t doubt that you have been taught that Catholics have a monopoly on salvation. But Jesus wasn’t a Catholic, nor was Paul, nor was Mary.
If you believe that the Catholic church is the only Christian church, it isn’t because of anything in the Bible, it is solely because of what your Catholic leaders have told you.
ThackerAgency on July 12, 2009 at 4:03 PM
The fact that you don’t see the arrogance in this statement proves to me that Catholics are indeed arrogant. So we are keeping score?
Salvation can not be achieved through works so that none should boast. Nobody boasts about how big of a Christian they are more than Catholics. It’s not enough for them to be saved, they have to be ‘SUPER SAVED’ (their priest told them so).
Jesus is watching the Catholic Church, and he cries at the arrogance of the Catholic Church. Catholics are so arrogant concerning their faith that they don’t even see it. My faith is so strong that no matter what anyone else says about me, I know that the Bible says I’m saved. . . even though I’m not Catholic.
You can interpret the ‘Rock’ thing any way you want. You obviously accept the Catholic interpretation. There were times when there wasn’t a pope, there were times when there were more than one pope. The pope is elected. There is no ‘unbroken chain’ since Peter. It is arrogance that leads Catholics to believe both that there IS an unbroken chain, and that it’s important.
It’s not a bloodline, it’s an election. . . that’s hardly something to brag about.
ThackerAgency on July 12, 2009 at 4:09 PM
You tried and I trumped. Go ahead, rant on. Make my day.
I’m glad your Bible says you are saved — its a great consolation to know and not guess, Oh Supreme Arrogant Saved One….
unclesmrgol on July 12, 2009 at 4:15 PM
unclesmrgol on July 12, 2009 at 4:15 PM
At the end of this day and the end of every day from now until the end of time, there will still be battles for the souls of man.
fourdeucer on July 12, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Awesome comment
Elisa on July 12, 2009 at 4:23 PM
As a former Roman Catholic I think you make a great point that Kathleen doesn’t have a clue as to what constitutes a better Catholic. I also like your point that the Roman Catholic Church, Lutherans, etc, each have a set of beliefs that they consider non-negotiable. Though they consider them non-negotiable they (no-longer) don’t force them on its members and they are free to leave. I am an example of that.I left because I could no longer agree with its doctrine.
Good post.
shick on July 12, 2009 at 4:29 PM
On listening, Obama only hears what he wants to hear.
bluelightbrigade on July 12, 2009 at 4:31 PM
I forgot to mention that the word catholic simply means universal. Evangelicals are known universally just as well as Roman Catholics. I have remained a faithful evangelical catholic ever since.
shick on July 12, 2009 at 4:32 PM
Very good point. I’ve taken a few pot shots at the Catholic Church. Let’s face it it isn’t that hard to do, as one can find fault with anything run by man, man will sin.
Heck there’s more than enough lefty Protestant denomination to take shots at too. I guess where the Catholic Church gets so much flack is since it’s leader, the Pope is the most recognizable church leader in the world, we’d like to see him being less forgiving of people like Obama or the Kennedys, and a lot more fire & brim stone on them.
Jeff from WI on July 12, 2009 at 4:33 PM
thanks to all you guys for this and all the other great comments on this thread. so many of you have such a great sense of humor.
Elisa on July 12, 2009 at 4:36 PM
Had to take that shot at the protestant denominations didn’t you Dan.
shick on July 12, 2009 at 4:45 PM
Absolutely and thanks
So true. Jesus picked sinful and fallible men to start His Church and that hasn’t changed. Because those are the only kind there are.
G.K. Chesterton quote from before he converted to Catholicism:
“When Christ at a symbolic moment was establishing His great society, He chose for its corner-stone neither the brilliant Paul nor the mystic John, but a shuffler, a snob, a coward – in a word, a man. Peter. And upon this rock He has built His Church, and the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it. All the empires and the kingdoms have failed, because of this inherent and continual weakness, that they were founded by strong men and upon strong men. But this one thing, the historic Christian Church, was founded on a weak man, and for that reason it is indestructible. For no chain is stronger than its weakest link.”
Elisa on July 12, 2009 at 4:48 PM
LOL. Yeah right. Rome preaching fire & brim stone.
shick on July 12, 2009 at 4:48 PM
Let me guess, Newsweek decided to make Stephen Colbert a full time editor?
bitsy on July 12, 2009 at 4:49 PM
That’s OK,a lot of them deserve it. Female ministers??..LOL..come on…LOl
Jeff from WI on July 12, 2009 at 4:49 PM
LOL..I know..it’s NOT going to happen. They’re the I love you, you love me Barney church now.
Jeff from WI on July 12, 2009 at 4:50 PM
With this, the Media becomes no longer a mere silly caricature of itself… it has descended into being a spoof of a caricature of a caricature of itself.
Even the real comedy skit pros of the ‘olden days’ Saturday Night Live program couldn’t write a sketch as ludicrous as this. Maybe Monty Python could have, but even that would be a stretch.
LegendHasIt on July 12, 2009 at 4:54 PM
Thacker, I about fell out of my chair when I read this. God bless you. And thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Jeff, my friend, I was with you about women, but I think you need to think (and pray) a bit more on this topic. You sound very anti-Catholic.
and this:
Really, you have no idea how off base you are here. The current state of the youth and middle aged like me in the Church are getting more and more conservative. It’s the liberals who are dying off. And our young priests are very conservative and orthodox. Praise be to God.
You are stuck in the ’60′s and ’70′s, my friend, in your perspective on the Church. And you are getting your info from antedotal stories and a liberal media that wants to make people believe the Church is liberal and against the actual conservative doctrines it really teaches.
I suggest you watch EWTN Catholic cable TV or go to their website for a live feed. That is the state of the Church today and the future.
Because the Holy Spirit guards the Church from error. And most Church going Catholics are against abortion.
Elisa on July 12, 2009 at 4:56 PM
Pope Barack I? This would be a demotion for Our Savior.
MaiDee on July 12, 2009 at 5:01 PM
Elisa,admittedly my views on the Catholic Church stem from the 60s and 70s when I left the Church for a variety of reasons, but mostly for their leftist Communist views.
If you noted ALL of my posts you’d see that I’ve also tried to be very fair to the Catholic Church, and have also attacked liberal Protestant denominations.
My major problem with the Catholic Church, at this time, is not the hiding of deviant priests, as I think the church is trying all it can to fix that problem. No my problem is the fact that the Catholic Church refuses to go after, and if need be, excommunicate pro-abortion Democrat Catholics.
I’ll guarantee you, Ted Kennedy will probably die within a year and we’ll be treated to a huge lefty baby killer attended funeral, in a Catholic Cathedral, probably officiated by a baby killing Democrat left bishop.
Jeff from WI on July 12, 2009 at 5:04 PM
I thought liberals hate it when the Americans force their values upon the rest of the world. So why are they demanding the Catholic Church change to accommodate American Catholics values?
Obama having more in common with American Catholics than the Pope does not make him more Catholic than the Pope. That makes American Catholics less Catholic than the Pope.
AaronGuzman on July 12, 2009 at 5:12 PM
I am not Catholic, but in the Biblical line of papal succession, isn’t the next Pope, Petrous Romanus, supposed to be a really, really bad guy and the last Pope ever?
I recall reading that somewhere.
-Dave
Dave R. on July 12, 2009 at 5:13 PM
Thacker, I do believe you can be anti-Catholic at times and I disagree with almost everything you ever say about the Church and I know that you do not understand what Catholic doctrine really is or the Scripture that supports it.
But I do believe you are sincere in your statement above about us being brothers and sisters in Christ. I believe you are misguided and blinded to the full truth. But you have the most important truth, which is faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ.
May He always draw you closer and closer to His full truth and to His Sacred Heart.
The Pope will never formally declare that abortion is OK, because that is the special charism of the Holy Spirit given to the Church. That on matters of FAITH AND MORALS ALONE the Church will never FORMALLY declare doctrine with error in it.
As for personal opinion, politics, earthly matters, or things not formally declared, they can make mistakes. Like you said, they are PEOPLE.
Fallible men wrote and compiled the infallible Scriptures. And fallible men lead the Church today and make mistakes. But never on formal teachings on faith and morals.
Elisa on July 12, 2009 at 5:18 PM
ah-hh-hh Jvett, maybe you should read the history of the Catholic Church regarding her popes. Not all had “Christ in their hearts” and committed atrocities, murder and blackmail!! Yes, they are infallible human beings and one could very easily agreed with abortion and make it canon law. THERE will be an evil pope, READ YOUR BIBLE!!
whatzit2u on July 12, 2009 at 5:20 PM
Jesus is watching the Catholic Church, and he cries at the arrogance of the Catholic Church. Catholics are so arrogant concerning their faith that they don’t even see it.
We’re so arrogant we teach, as fact, that He still visits people and inspires them to such courageous sanctity that His Church is shoved closer to Him. Eg Saint Catherine of Siena, Saint Francis of Assisi, and Saint Louis of France, all of whom bucked His Church.
But I think He didn’t visit you. His cryin’ days are through.
And if He didn’t, and you’re just using rhetoric…how arrogant is that??
Chris_Balsz on July 12, 2009 at 5:20 PM
I’m sorry to hear that. Your denomination (Missouri Synod Lutherans) and High Church Anglicans were the most conservative of the Protestants, and closer to orthodox teachings. Truly that saddens me to hear.
Elisa on July 12, 2009 at 5:21 PM
There seems to be no bottom to these liberal rantings–but this one is in it’s own category. More Catholic than the Pope—would that ever be possible!
jeanie on July 12, 2009 at 5:24 PM
You’re thinking about the prophecies of St. Malachy, a 12th Century Irish bishop who wrote short prophetic descriptions about the next 112 popes, with the last one bringing “the end”. Whether it’s end of the world or end of the Church was not made clear. Pope Benedict is the 111th Pope since the prophecies were made so, if true, the next one will be the last one.
It sort of fits into the popular 2012 doomsday scenario.
AaronGuzman on July 12, 2009 at 5:24 PM
Yes, that will make me want to vomit, as well. Most bishops, especially the young ones, have gotten more conservative and orthodox. But yes, there are bishops and priests who go against Church teachings.
But you must look at the formal teaching of the Church. Not those who go against it.
Only TRUTH is what matters. Not the men in the Church and certainly not politics. It is only faith beliefs that matter. Not earthly political beliefs.
And please read my last post to Thacker about Church leaders being mere men. Only truth matters.
I repost this for you and for Thacker:
G.K. Chesterton quote from before he converted to Catholicism:
“When Christ at a symbolic moment was establishing His great society, He chose for its corner-stone neither the brilliant Paul nor the mystic John, but a shuffler, a snob, a coward – in a word, a man. Peter. And upon this rock He has built His Church, and the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it. All the empires and the kingdoms have failed, because of this inherent and continual weakness, that they were founded by strong men and upon strong men. But this one thing, the historic Christian Church, was founded on a weak man, and for that reason it is indestructible. For no chain is stronger than its weakest link.”
Elisa on July 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Got to go, guys,
God bless you all.
Elisa on July 12, 2009 at 5:27 PM
There’s a lie right there, I guess I can skip the Sacrament of Reconciliation today. Catholics think no such thing.
Please read this: Salvation Outside the Church
I think it also has something to do with how you express it.
I have no idea what the tenets of your faith are. What church do you belong to? You’re not secretive about that are you?
Someone has called you a bigot, Thacker? I’m shocked.
Hmmm… I never called you a bigot, although everyone else seems to call you that. You do seem to preach anti-Catholic bigotry all of the time.
theCork on July 12, 2009 at 5:27 PM
I am willing to bet that Jesus is not happy with the false messiah.
BillaryMcBush on July 12, 2009 at 5:35 PM
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
-Dave
Dave R. on July 12, 2009 at 5:42 PM
Is there no argument too contorted or twisted to be used by liberals in the worship of their idol?
muggedbyreality on July 12, 2009 at 5:46 PM
You are thinking of this, which purports to be a prophecy of St. Malachy of Armagh, in which Petrus Romanus is the last Pope. As for being a really bad guy, here’s the prophecy associated with the “final pope”:
Is a person who does the “feed my sheep” thing a bad person?
Noting the provenance, the entire thing (including the final stanza) could be (and probably is) a falsity. If it isn’t, the Final Judgment is (again) upon us.
unclesmrgol on July 12, 2009 at 5:52 PM
I think you just called him a bigot. By their fruits shall you know them.
unclesmrgol on July 12, 2009 at 5:54 PM
Obamaweek: You know who’d make a great Pope?
Obamaweek: You know who’d make a great Muhammad?
Wonder how that would be recieved by the MSM.
fourdeucer on July 12, 2009 at 6:01 PM
To “feed” can mean to move something to a place to be used. So “feed the sheep through many tribulations” can be interpreted as sending them into the tribulations, and that could make him a bad person.
But such is the problem with prophecies; it’s hard to know what it exactly means until it’s too late.
AaronGuzman on July 12, 2009 at 6:16 PM
Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, indeed. Like we need her to tell us Catholics anything. If the Catholic church were to ever change its teachings, I’d be the 1st to jump ship. The comments accompanying her quotes are VERY well-put! Are the Kennedy’s really relevent as Catholics anymore?
Babyhugger on July 12, 2009 at 6:20 PM
Careful, Ed–words like that might paint yourself into the corner of opposing every reform the Church has ever gone through. Surely you don’t think the mutability of Church doctrine was a bad thing as regards abolishing the Inquisition or the selling of indulgences.
hicsuget on July 12, 2009 at 6:22 PM
Elisa on July 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Elisa,I really am not trying to be offensive,but the very “Men of God”, the “Officials Of The Church” simply disgust me in regards to them, at least of an “official” basis as part of their calling, supporting the very people I truly despise for their killing of children, and I’m wondering a bit why the church members put up with it
Jeff from WI on July 12, 2009 at 6:28 PM
Never was.
geckomon on July 12, 2009 at 6:28 PM
I should clarify: both never were doctrine.
geckomon on July 12, 2009 at 6:29 PM
As are/were many Catholics [disgusted and appalled]. However, why would the failures of man turn you away from your Church? Catholicism was not what failed you.
geckomon on July 12, 2009 at 6:32 PM
Not to get into a long story again. Out of the 4 priests at my parish, when I was a kid, 2 were obviously very interested in little boys, and 3 out of 4 taught every religion class espousing “social justice and Communism”, back in the 60s anmd early 70s. If a church condones this type of teaching and lifestyle, then there was no point in me staying. Remember it wasn’t 1 or 2 BUT 3 out of 4
Jeff from WI on July 12, 2009 at 6:39 PM
Catholics aren’t dogmatic about our doctrine!
Chris_Balsz on July 12, 2009 at 6:44 PM
What if all four? The Church still is not what they were. You put your faith in the men.
I am sorry for what you experienced and pray that one day you may see that while those priests failed you (and many I assume) that the Church did not. It’s always up to us to seek her out. Not the other way around.
geckomon on July 12, 2009 at 6:52 PM
FYI, Kathleen Kennedy Townsend is the eldest daughter of Robert F. Kennedy. She’s one of those Kennedys who think you don’t have to follow Church teaching but rather popular opinion.
A good priest friend of mine once told me, “Jesus is an abstraction until we learn to obey.” Obedience to Christ is a non-negotiable part of being a disciple. We are only His “frinds if you obey My commandments.” The Kennedy clan might not like that reality, but there’s always the Episcopal Church if they won’t like submitting to Catholic teaching.
Also, it’s interesting that, while President Obama presented a good gift to the Pope (for a change), in a previous age the idea of an Emperor investing a Pope with the sign of priestly authority (i.e., a stole) would be taken as definite sign of the subjection of the Church to the secular authority.
Maybe it is the Obama administration’s attempt to divide and conquer the Catholic Church in America. It’s a shame too many so-called Catholics are there to help him do it.
Amy Proctor on July 12, 2009 at 6:59 PM
I’m sure somebody has already said this, but I don’t think Obama would want to be a mere Pope. He already sees himself as a god.
Star20 on July 12, 2009 at 7:03 PM
Her argument is 1) women’s rights and 2) homosexual rights.
As someone said above and I immediately thought while reading this drivel, let Kathleen Kennedy Townsend and Newsweek print an article that their saviour is a better Muslim than Allah.
Marcus on July 12, 2009 at 7:16 PM
I know your point is focusing on Obama as the Messiah but it must be understood that God does not change his doctrine.
shick on July 12, 2009 at 7:49 PM
Okay that’s funny even if it borders on blasphemy.
shick on July 12, 2009 at 7:53 PM
Where do you see Obama Derangement in Ed’s post? The post was not about what Obama has done or said but rather what Townsend thinks of Obama and Catholics.
In context your post makes no sense.
shick on July 12, 2009 at 8:02 PM
Great point. Let me go further with that thought. If the Kennedy’s or anyone held their view of abortion in my local church, they would be confronted with their views and probably after it all would be removed from membership.
The Roman Catholic church should do the same if it’s walk was as big as its talk.
shick on July 12, 2009 at 8:14 PM
Well that would solve the shortage of priests per diocese problem.
shick on July 12, 2009 at 8:17 PM
If you have or support abortion so you excommunicate yourself.
CWforFreedom on July 12, 2009 at 8:23 PM
Please show specifically where Luther was wrong. What did he say and what did the Roman Catholic church say?
shick on July 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM
What does that mean? Is this some sort of Vatican II “innovation”?
Don’t you know what the creed says? “I acknowledge ONE Baptism for the remission of sins”.
Christ is talking about the Faith of the Apostles…ALL the Apostles were the foundation of the Church..all the apostles were equal and under the headship of Christ.This is well proven in Acts 15 in the first Holy Synod of Jerusalem where Peter was rebuked and accepted the consensus of the inspired Holy council and acknowledged the consensus of Bishops.
Remember, it was the bishop of old rome who changed doctrine and separated himself from all of the other Apostolic Patriarchetes of the Church,such as the Patriarchetes of Jerusalem,Antioch,Alexandria,Constantinople(New Rome) etc..
The bishop of old rome is NOT THE representative of Christ on earth nor is he the head of the Church.
Christ is the Head of the Church.
The fact that Christ was talking about all of the apostles and not simply St Peter is universally attested to in the consensus of the writings of the Holy Fathers and is proven without a doubt.
You’re actually wrong about that. Catholic does not just mean universal but FULLNESS..as in the Fullness of the Faith. All of the Protestant sects are the exact OPPOSITE of the Fullness of the Faith. The protestants are so far removed from the Church that they are in spiritual poverty. That is why they seperate into tens of thousands of sects and why they are constantly falling into every heresy that the Church has already dealt with and conquered.
The only Church that is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Orthodox Church.
Roman Catholicism was a much later innovation and the many thousands of protestant sects are just sectarians of the roman catholics.
MaximusConfessor on July 12, 2009 at 8:28 PM
I respectably disagree. So would this former Roman Catholic priest.
shick on July 12, 2009 at 8:39 PM
I would call every Catholic priest, bishop, cardinal and the Pope himself who were involved with the reshuffling of abusers and the coverup did well to “defend” the practice.
shick on July 12, 2009 at 8:42 PM
So where in “social justice” does the church’s actions designed to hide pedophiles fit? The actions by a small number of criminals(though greater than the “few” concept that gets thrown around all the time) certainly violated the tenets of social justice that children should have a safe environment to grow up. Nevertheless, it was the church hierarchy up to and including the Pope who knew these monsters existed and just moved them parish-to-parish. Is that one of these policies we can disagree about?
highhopes on July 12, 2009 at 8:48 PM
Comedy gold. Oh Thacker, that ship has sailed. You have a long, long google history behind you that your viperous words cannot hide.
Thacker is well known as Hot Air’s resident anti-Catholic bigot. His actions speak louder than his words. He has never failed to invade a thread and post his rants on Catholicism and Catholics. Only when pushed to the wall does he claim he’s doing it all out of charity. Yeah, sure. Except for the fact that he has never once said anything positive about the Church, has proclaimed it all but the antichrist, and is more devoted to slandering it than Jack Chick.
Has Thacker ever said anything remotely charitable? Does he argue in good faith, charitably? Does he understand that his relentless, non-stop attacks are, if supposedly charitable, counterproductive? Of course not. His aim is not understanding, or conversion. It is to placate his ego and to satisfy his demented anger towards Catholicism.
I could play armchair psychologist all night, but it wouldn’t be worth it. It’s enough to know that anyone who talks to Thacker about Catholicism will hear nothing but attacks and ill will towards Catholics and the Church.
If the admins at Hot Air had any brains, they’d have banned him months ago, just as they ban people for constantly slandering Islam. Thacker gets away with it for some idiotic reason, notwithstanding that he’s commenting on a blog whose proprietor is Catholic. Whatever. Hot Air is well known in the Catholic blogosphere for this tarnished anti-Catholic reputation because of its refusal to police the comment threads.
Thacker is a liar and he knows it. Don’t listen to him.
Sydney Carton on July 12, 2009 at 8:56 PM
I have never attacked a Catholic or desired ill will toward anyone. I explain my disagreement with their doctrine. You take that as an attack.
In fact in the quote you just put up I professed brotherhood and sisterhood in CHRIST. To me that is the only important thing. But to Catholics like you, that’s an attack. In my understanding Catholics believe you not only have to believe in Christ, but you also have to believe in the Pope (you would take that as an attack, but is common Protestant belief).
exactly. Don’t you think I know that MM is Catholic? Don’t you think I know that Ed is Catholic? If I had something against Catholics, why would I waste time on THEIR board. Surely if I was a racist, I wouldn’t spend time on a black person’s blog.
Maybe I haven’t been banned because I haven’t done the things that you say. Maybe I haven’t been banned because I have done nothing but disagree with tenets of Catholicism. Maybe you get angry because you see the logic in my arguments that Protestants worldwide hold.
I don’t hate Catholics. I am thankful that they are Christians (as is in the excerpt you quoted). I don’t degrade Catholics here either. And even though you might be super duper surprised, your judgment of me means about as much to me as ant spit.
If I did say something degrading, I would be banned. I haven’t. I don’t. I won’t. You just disagree with what I say (fine) but you take it as some bigotry that doesn’t exist.
ThackerAgency on July 12, 2009 at 9:15 PM
Kind of a bummer. I remember hearing the “we are near our last pope” for a while. Thanks folks for clearing up where that originated.
As for Rome, that would be a shame. I just visited there and it is an incredibly beautiful city.
I also seem to remember another prophecy, perhaps Fatima??, where the Pope went a bit ashen when he read it and sealed it up.
One more thing about prophecies.. Rome has been “Destroyed” in the past.. Historians may correct me here but I am not an expert. Anyway, at one point, the population was down to about 20k from a high of about 1.5 million or so.
I realize there has to be diplomacy as the Pope is a soverign head of state (again, corrections gratefully accepted). However, I’d be a bit disappointed if he didn’t ream obama out on the “Let newborn babies die” thing. I’m not a religious expert but I would think that taking a stand like he did on that would earn a couple of million years in purgatory or an eternity in hell.
bullseye on July 12, 2009 at 9:29 PM
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