Why is Obama administration supporting Zelaya instead of rule of law?

posted at 5:12 pm on July 6, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Last week, the New Republic warned the Obama administration not to make a fetish of the executive in Honduras at the expense of the rule of law.  Now Mary Anastasia O’Grady at the Wall Street Journal joins TNR in pointing out the contradictions inherent in Barack Obama’s reaction to the Honduran crisis.  Shouldn’t a glance at his allies in this policy give him a reason to reconsider his approach?

Reason has gone AWOL in places like Turtle Bay and Foggy Bottom. Ruling the debate on Mr. Zelaya’s behavior is Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chávez, who is now the reigning international authority on “democracy.”

Mr. Chávez is demanding that Mr. Zelaya be reinstated and is even threatening to overthrow the new Honduran president, Roberto Micheletti. He’s leading the charge from the Organization of American States (OAS). The United Nations and the Obama administration are falling in line.

Is this insane? You bet. …

Hondurans had the courage to push back. Now Chávez-supported agitators are trying to stir up violence. Yesterday afternoon airline service was suspended in Tegucigalpa when Mr. Zelaya tried to return to the country and his plane was not permitted to land. There were reports of violence between his backers and troops.

This is a moment when the U.S. ought to be on the side of the rule of law, which the Honduran court and Congress upheld. If Washington does not reverse course, it will be one more act of appeasement toward an ambitious and increasingly dangerous dictator.

Obama’s stated desire to hold direct talks with Chavez on the US-Venezuelan relationship was perhaps the least objectionable of the world leaders with whom Obama promised to meet “without preconditions” in July 2007.  Since then, though, we have discovered direct funding from Chavez to FARC, the terrorist group attempting a revolution in Columbia, as well as the outright theft of private property in Venezuela’s nationalization programs from American investors.  Clearly, Chavez’ interests have little to do with freedom and everything to do with raw power — just like his mentors, the Castro brothers, who have run Cuba as a prison island for 50 years.

Why, then, has Obama blindly followed Chavez’ lead in Honduras?  The removal of Manuel Zelaya got botched, but it didn’t result in a military junta replacing him.  The Honduran legislature remains in place, as does its courts, both of which unanimously issued the arrest warrant that the military executed.  While there is a legitimate criticism about Honduran due process in this case, that’s not Chavez’ interest.  He just wants his leftist ally put back in charge so Zelaya can continue to dismantle the constitutional form of government in Honduras just as Chavez has done in Venezuela.

The Obama administration had better decide whether it supports the constitutional due process in democratic republics or strongman rule.  If it’s the latter, Obama couldn’t possibly do any better than he’s doing right now to push Honduras into a Chavez-style dictatorship.  If it’s the former, then someone in the White House had better stop Obama from getting led by the nose by Chavez in Latin America.


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Obama shares the same socialist/fascist philosophy as Chavez. The way to seize power is to play class warfare games, promise to redistribute the nation’s wealth in the name of justice, and be the benevolent strong man who oversees the State in all aspects. Zelaya is cut of the same cloth. That is why he wanted a referendum, for he was trying to stir the pot of grievances among the poorer classes.

Obama knows exactly where his sympathies and alliances lie. His selection of Harold Koh, a self-described transnationalist, says that international law or organizations trump national sovereignty.

onlineanalyst on July 6, 2009 at 6:10 PM

Obama Backs Unconstitutional Coup by Zelaya

INC on July 6, 2009 at 6:07 PM

That’s good!

How about: “Obama FARCs U.S. Foreign Policy in Latin America”

Christien on July 6, 2009 at 6:11 PM

A famous line from the movie “Patton”
.
George Patton in Africa : commented about Erwin Rommel, “The Desert Fox, “I read your book!
.
Chavez did give Obama a book when they did he not?

For what Obama’s doing with Chavez & the Honduras situation can be descibed as un-american.
.
It is Chavez who is calling out Obama saying “Hey Marack Ho Llama we’ve read each others book, we’re simpatico amigo.”

Americannodash on July 6, 2009 at 6:12 PM

We laugh about it now, but I wouldn’t be surprised. Nothing this fool does, or tries to do, surprises me anymore.

progressoverpeace on July 6, 2009 at 6:09 PM

Yeah, kinda a combo between the Marx Brothers Freedonia, and a Cheech and Chong movie…

Romeo13 on July 6, 2009 at 6:12 PM

Here is a new theory why Palin gave up as gov. Aug, 1st. she puts Air Force One up for sale on e-bay. Aug. 2nd. she sells the entire administration on craigslist.

fourdeucer on July 6, 2009 at 6:13 PM

*Chavez did give Obama a book when they met did he not?

Americannodash on July 6, 2009 at 6:13 PM

Because they’re indifferent to, if not actively hostile toward, democracy.

Jim Treacher on July 6, 2009 at 6:14 PM

Why is Obama administration supporting Zelaya instead of rule of law?

“As thick as thieves”.

Johan Klaus on July 6, 2009 at 6:15 PM

I’m beginning to think its all about setting a precedent, where a SuperNational Organization (OAS and UN) can over ride the clearly written constitution of a member state.

Romeo13 on July 6, 2009 at 6:07 PM

At the moment that is a stretch for me. When something appears to be so obvious as in Honduras vs Zelaya I assume I don’t have a key fact.

Now this situation must have come up in conference in DC and my main question these last several days remains–Where are the organized Repub voices lending support. Their silence is deafening. Why are they not speaking out? What do they know that is keeping their mouths shut?

patrick neid on July 6, 2009 at 6:16 PM

Marxist dictators flock together

bill30097 on July 6, 2009 at 6:21 PM

I’ve wondered that too, Patrick Neid.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 6:21 PM

33 violations of the Constitution since January 20th and 32 more violations on deck YET THE GOP SAYS NOTHING, does NOTHING, sees NOTHING, hears NOTHING.
Obama follows the Nation Socialist Party Platform like it’s posted on his teleprompter and the GOP has become Sargent Shultz. It’s time for all 546 monkeys in the Federal Government to go or be forced out and arrested, (535 in Congress, 9 on the SCOTUS, President and Vice President) because, frankly, if you drop your tater tots in the yard amongst the dog poo, you don’t bother trying to figure out which tater tot hasn’t touched poo, you throw them ALL out and start over.

nelsonknows on July 6, 2009 at 6:22 PM

Dictators Unite!

faraway on July 6, 2009 at 6:22 PM

To take it another step, if the facts are as have been stated where is Romney, Huckabee, Palin, Pawlenty, Newt or any of the other bright light yappers during this fiasco?

patrick neid on July 6, 2009 at 6:23 PM

patrick neid at 6:16 PM

I am wondering that too! On the surface, this is a Republican gold mine but where are the Republicans?

Vince on July 6, 2009 at 6:24 PM

Paging Capt John Parker

Paging Capt John Parker

bill30097 on July 6, 2009 at 6:24 PM

nelsonknows at 6:22

Would you happen to have a list of the 33 so far and 32 on deck? I’m keeping a list of important events since Obama’s inauguration and don’t want to leave out anything major.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 6:26 PM

Why is Obama administration supporting Zelaya instead of rule of law?

Instincts.

While he prefers to vote “present” and keep his options open, each and every time Obama has been forced to take a side on any issue he has come down on the side of whatever element was the most socialist and the least democratic. It is who he is folks.

MikeA on July 6, 2009 at 6:29 PM

To take it another step, if the facts are as have been stated where is Romney, Huckabee, Palin, Pawlenty, Newt or any of the other bright light yappers during this fiasco?

patrick neid on July 6, 2009 at 6:23 PM

They are all part of the MSM Washington insider echo chamber.

Until someone breaks the story to them, they will be silent due to not knowing the real facts.

NONE of them are willing to take a risk on anything. None of them are willing to be leaders… they only follow once the story is already out there… and blather about it.

Romeo13 on July 6, 2009 at 6:30 PM

Let’s not forget that Chavez rent-a-mobs were enlisted in Iran to quell the protestors. Now Chavez rent-a-mobs and sympathizers infiltrate Honduras to create chaos.

onlineanalyst on July 6, 2009 at 6:32 PM

Why is Obama administration supporting Zelaya instead of rule of law?

Obama can not help himself. Like the Scorpion, it’s in his nature.

Why, then, has Obama blindly followed Chavez’ lead in Honduras?

His eyes are wide open.

The Obama administration had better decide whether it supports the constitutional due process in democratic republics or strongman rule.

Clearly he decided on that matter quite some time ago.

MB4 on July 6, 2009 at 6:34 PM

MikeA, the thing about this, though, is that Obama didn’t have to do anything. Even before this ouster he was in constant contact with Honduran military leaders urging them not to obey their Supreme Court and Congress – so much so that the military leaders stopped even answering the administration’s calls because they knew what they were after.

A report I read on the UN basically said that UN leaders were looking to Obama for direction on where to go with this. When he condemned it then so did they.

This is one where he could have voted “present” but long before the vote was even taken had voted against the rule of law.

I agree with you that this is in his nature but I think there’s more to the story because he’s had his hands in this for a while.

This WSJ article refers to Venezuela not having an audit of their electronic voting system, about the government kicking out observers when Chavez was behind and then voila! Chavez won. I believe that voting system is the same one that is used in many places in the US, including Chicago. But when it was tested the Chicago folks had a LOT of questions about it – questions which weren’t being answered.

I asked if any computer folks here knew if there was any way to tell whether the vote numbers had been manipulated. Somebody answered saying that manipulation could only be detected if there was a good audit and observation of it all, which there isn’t.

If Chavez through the Smartmatic/Sequoia Voting System and its executive, Antonio Mujica, can control what our voting numbers are, then Obama is DEFINITELY beholden to him now and dependent on him for the future.

Will we ever know for sure whether this is true or not? No. We don’t have any accountability for our voting system software, as far as I’ve been able to find out. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 6:38 PM

Obama Admin. supports Zelaya because thats been their plan once Obama got in office they will try to keep him in power for life.

jaboba on July 6, 2009 at 6:38 PM

I forgot to add that Chavez owns stock in the Smartmatic/Sequoia company.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 6:47 PM

Why does Ed continue to assert that the removal of Zelaya was “botched”? He just emphasizes the Leftist meme that it was illegitimate.

If there ever was an initiative in the US involving ballots flown in from Venezuela, I’d sure hope our military would “botch” their response, too.

guntotinglibertarian on July 6, 2009 at 6:49 PM

The Obama administration had better decide whether it supports the constitutional due process in democratic republics or strongman rule.

Naive. Hopelessly naive.

guntotinglibertarian on July 6, 2009 at 6:50 PM

Bama is a marxist, always has been always will be. Look at the man’s history…there is not one shred of evidence he would act in any other way, other than his empty words, but that is part of the marxist game…say anything to get the power, then use it.

He wants power and wants people around him who want power as an end, and the hell with the results. Crap + Tax and the Porkulus were examples of naked political power, as was dismissing IG’s and GM’s CEO.

I think it is a stretch to say this is a dry run for 2012 in the US, but it isn’t crazy to wonder about it, given the breathtaking speed of Bama’s cadre in nationalizing parts of the economy, their announced goals and how far they will go to push them. I don’t think Bama has time to build his Civilian Defense Corps (Praetorian Guard) by then and I doubt the military will back him, but it could get really snarkey. And given statements by various nutjobs in Congress and the Administration (such as Holder talking about a new AWB and Waters talking about nationalizing Big Oil), I guess there are plenty of people for whom Bama is going too slowly.

What I think is plain is that Bama isn’t bothered by violence and repression as long as the the “right people” are suffering, such as the Iranian protestors. How this will play out in his actions against US citizens not enthralled with his plans for us could be a horrible stain on this country’s honor.

Harry Schell on July 6, 2009 at 6:53 PM

Obama shares the same socialist/fascist philosophy as Chavez. The way to seize power is to play class warfare games, promise to redistribute the nation’s wealth in the name of justice, and be the benevolent strong man who oversees the State in all aspects. Zelaya is cut of the same cloth. That is why he wanted a referendum, for he was trying to stir the pot of grievances among the poorer classes.

Obama knows exactly where his sympathies and alliances lie. His selection of Harold Koh, a self-described transnationalist, says that international law or organizations trump national sovereignty.

onlineanalyst on July 6, 2009 at 6:10 PM

Gee, that’s so…doctrinaire. Dontcha know Ed is trying to be…thoughtful…by giving Obammy the benefit of the doubt. According to guys like Ed, Obammy is just…confused…trying to grope his way through the complexities of foreign affairs.

Wake up, Ed!!! The rest of us knew he was a race-baiting Marxist from the git go.

What he wants is to put an end to the white-dominated capitalist America he has hated since his youth.

On the other hand, maybe you do know that, but just feel you want to show folks out there that you can be…thoughful, so you can land a gig like David Brooks.

guntotinglibertarian on July 6, 2009 at 6:56 PM

Picture the route to dictatorship as a long train track. The Castros have already arrived. Chavez is almost there. Zelaya was getting close and Obama is just starting out (but moving faster than anyone thought). They are all following the same path, the same game plan. Obama is concerned because he wants to make sure things are not derailed in the US like they were in Honduras. That is why he is going around the Supreme Court and Congress (with all the Czar appointments, eliminating congressional input for FCC board and IGs, and contemplating ‘emergency executive orders’ for any treaties or actions that Congress might object to). He is in a hurry because 2010 could change things if not enough steps have been taken by then to negate a potentially unfavorable swing in the congressional elections. He has at least until 2016 to make the presidential election irrelevant (so he can remain in power – already achieved by Chavez and this is where Zelaya was heading in Honduras). He is in a hurry so the government can reach the point of no return and eliminate any meaningful opposition. The military and the general public will be the final hurdle for him. At this point the Constitution is a hurdle to overcome and he does not want the American people to get any ideas from the people of Honduras.

jerseyman on July 6, 2009 at 6:56 PM

new AWB

Sorry…new AWB? I probably should know what that means, but please enlighten me.

guntotinglibertarian on July 6, 2009 at 6:58 PM

Zelaya Plans Another Attempt to Return to Honduras
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aBBaccHVYZsU

elduende on July 6, 2009 at 6:59 PM

jerseyman on July 6, 2009 at 6:56 PM

100%

guntotinglibertarian on July 6, 2009 at 6:59 PM

Obama has no respect for Constitutions. He believes they should be to protect the Government from the people, not the people from the Government.

Hobbes on July 6, 2009 at 7:00 PM

Iran and Honduras are scenarios that will be played out in the not too distant future in America. Obama just wants to make it clear to the American people where he stands when these situations play themselves out here in the US.

jerseyman on July 6, 2009 at 7:01 PM

Will we ever know for sure whether this is true or not? No. We don’t have any accountability for our voting system software, as far as I’ve been able to find out. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 6:38 PM

You’re probably just a racist who advocates that people should have to show ID in order to vote.

guntotinglibertarian on July 6, 2009 at 7:03 PM

03:22pm
Casi cien. Según el subcomisionado de la Policía Metropolitana, hasta ahora suman 96 los ciudadanos de Nicaragua detenidos durante este tiempo de convulsión en Honduras.

96 Nicaraguan infiltrators/agitators have been caught since last week.

So far they’ve caught Cubans, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, and Venezuelans without entry papers and agitating in the protests. The one Venezuelan I saw on TV was caught with a gun in his waistband….

elduende on July 6, 2009 at 7:04 PM

Let’s not forget that Chavez rent-a-mobs were enlisted in Iran to quell the protestors. Now Chavez rent-a-mobs and sympathizers infiltrate Honduras to create chaos.

onlineanalyst on July 6, 2009 at 6:32 PM

Coming soon to a neighborhood near you. Perhaps coordinated from Zelaya’s Washington, DC “headquarters in exile.”

guntotinglibertarian on July 6, 2009 at 7:06 PM

96 Nicaraguan infiltrators/agitators have been caught since last week.

So far they’ve caught Cubans, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, and Venezuelans without entry papers and agitating in the protests. The one Venezuelan I saw on TV was caught with a gun in his waistband….

elduende on July 6, 2009 at 7:04 PM

God, I miss Ronald Reagan.

guntotinglibertarian on July 6, 2009 at 7:07 PM

guntotinglibertarian on July 6, 2009 at 6:58 PM

Assault Weapons Ban

Barnestormer on July 6, 2009 at 7:08 PM

The phrase you’re looking for is “anticipatory cognitive dissonance”.

This is the cognitive dissonance that grips an individual over a clash between an attitude he might hold in the present, and a potentially contradictory attitude he envisions he might find it necessary to hold in the future.

In other words, this situation hits a little too close to home for the messiah. He is loath to say or believe something today that would seem to suggest he finds the idea of suspending the constitution morally wrong, because he anticipates a future scenario wherein he might wish to affirm the morality of suspending his country’s voting rules.

jeff_from_mpls on July 6, 2009 at 7:19 PM

Ortega threatens war to restore Zelaya.

Quoth the Ortega:

“Para Nicaragua es inadmisible que se prolongue esa crisis en Honduras, porque nos va a afectar a todos los centroamericanos”, ya que otros ejércitos podrían eventualmente optar por resolver los conflictos con golpes de Estado.

Advirtió que si la OEA no “actúa con firmeza” para deponer a los golpistas en Honduras, los países miembros de la Alianza Bolivariana para las Américas (Alba) tomarán medidas.

“Si la OEA no resuelve, pues la Alba tendrá que resolver, buscar la solución para que retorne el presidente Zelaya a Honduras, (aunque) nosotros no queremos llegar a ese extremo.

http://www.elheraldo.hn/Especiales/Honduras%20en%20contra%20de%20la%20ilegalidad%20del%2024%20de%20junio%20de%202009/Ediciones/2009/07/06/Noticias/La-Alba-amenaza-con-intervencion

TRANSLATION:

Quoth the Ortega:

For Nicaragua it is unacceptable for this crisis to continue for too long, because it will affect all Central Americans”, because other armies could eventually choose to resolve internal (political) conflicts with coup d’etats.

He warned that if the OAS does not “act vigorously” to overturn the coup in Honduras, the countries of the Bolivarian Alliance for the Americas (Alba) will do so (with military means).

“If the OAS does not resolve the crisis, Alba will be forced to do so, ALBA will return the Honduran President, Zelaya to power, (but) we do not want to go to that extreme.

These leftists are so predictable.

elduende on July 6, 2009 at 7:21 PM

Assault Weapons Ban

Barnestormer on July 6, 2009 at 7:08 PM

Thanks. I hope he shows up personally to “ban” my AR-15.

guntotinglibertarian on July 6, 2009 at 7:26 PM

Zelaya to be smuggled acros the border ?

He’s going to be in the front of the cow suit. Obammy will be in the behind.

guntotinglibertarian on July 6, 2009 at 7:28 PM

We need to raise a Ronald Reagan brigade to go to Honduras to fight (and gain combat experience for later) for freedom

bill30097 on July 6, 2009 at 7:29 PM

Zelaya to be smuggled acros the border ?

William Amos on July 6, 2009 at 7:08 PM

That’s a prelude to civil war. He needs his supporters to coalesce around him once he’s in and while that happens Honduran security forces will try to arrest him which will precipitate a conflict. Gives Alba the pretext it needs to intervene…

elduende on July 6, 2009 at 7:30 PM

TRANSLATION:

Quoth the Ortega:

For Nicaragua it is unacceptable for this crisis to continue for too long, because it will affect all Central Americans”, because other armies could eventually choose to resolve internal (political) conflicts with coup d’etats.

He warned that if the OAS does not “act vigorously” to overturn the coup in Honduras, the countries of the Bolivarian Alliance for the Americas (Alba) will do so (with military means).

“If the OAS does not resolve the crisis, Alba will be forced to do so, ALBA will return the Honduran President, Zelaya to power, (but) we do not want to go to that extreme.
These leftists are so predictable.

elduende on July 6, 2009 at 7:21 PM

These kind of statements have been flying around for several days and yet no response from the White House or even more importantly from my perspective any of the supposed Repub leaders. From Palin on down they are all an embarrassment.

Obama has nothing to worry about.

patrick neid on July 6, 2009 at 7:48 PM

These leftists are so predictable.

elduende on July 6, 2009 at 7:21 PM
Actually they have become too effective in using the term Coup. The more the U.N. the OAS and this administration use that term and get away with it, the more legitamacy it becomes. We have to figure away to deny them that approach.

fourdeucer on July 6, 2009 at 7:51 PM

Remember what happened to St Patrick’ battion in Mexican American war

The Saint Patrick’s Battalion (Spanish: Batallón de San Patricio) was a unit of several hundred immigrants and expatriates of European descent that fought as part of the Mexican Army against the United States in the Mexican-American War of 1846 to 1848. Many of the battalion’s members deserted or defected from the U.S. Army.

The San Patricios captured by the U.S. Army suffered the punishment of traitors; they had been responsible for some of the toughest fighting (and the heaviest casualties) that the U.S. Army had faced, and 72 were immediately charged with desertion by the Army.

Harney ordered Francis O’Connor hanged even though he had had both legs amputated the previous day. When the army surgeon informed the colonel that the absent soldier had lost both his legs in battle, Harney replied:

“ Bring the damned son of a bitch out! My order was to hang 30 and by God I’ll do it “

William Amos on July 6, 2009 at 7:53 PM

Sometimes Obama just shames me. America should stand up against the communists, not side with them.

Terrye on July 6, 2009 at 7:54 PM

Remember what happened to the St Patrick’s Battalion

The Saint Patrick’s Battalion (Spanish: Batallón de San Patricio) was a unit of several hundred immigrants and expatriates of European descent that fought as part of the Mexican Army against the United States in the Mexican-American War of 1846 to 1848. Many of the battalion’s members deserted or defected from the U.S. Army.

The San Patricios captured by the U.S. Army suffered the punishment of traitors; they had been responsible for some of the toughest fighting (and the heaviest casualties) that the U.S. Army had faced, and 72 were immediately charged with desertion by the Army

Harney ordered Francis O’Connor hanged even though he had had both legs amputated the previous day. When the army surgeon informed the colonel that the absent soldier had lost both his legs in battle, Harney replied:

“ Bring the damned son of a bitch out! My order was to hang 30 and by God I’ll do it

William Amos on July 6, 2009 at 7:54 PM

Sorry some strange blip hit my post

William Amos on July 6, 2009 at 7:55 PM

The removal of Manuel Zelaya got botched

Pathetic, Ed! And this after about a hundred of us asked you for evidence to back up your claim last time, which you still haven’t provided.

FloatingRock on July 6, 2009 at 7:59 PM

The Obama administration had better decide whether it supports the constitutional due process in democratic republics or strongman rule. If it’s the latter, Obama couldn’t possibly do any better than he’s doing right now to push Honduras into a Chavez-style dictatorship. If it’s the former, then someone in the White House had better stop Obama from getting led by the nose by Chavez in Latin America.

Curious why you believe the Obama admin. doesn’t know what it’s doing. FWIW, I believe they know exactly what they’re doing. For that, and other reasons, I’ll oppose Obama on everything, and never give him the benefit of any doubts.

JiangxiDad on July 6, 2009 at 8:13 PM

If you read the liberal nutroots on this story you’ll see that it is all about those evil CIA death squads that Reagan sponsored back in the eighties.

No I’m serious, they all seem to think we are still back in the eighties, and they are screwing Hondurans over because they want to purge the US of the “stain” of Reagan’s tyrannical imperialism… by “reverse imperialism” if you will allow me to coin a phrase.

Apparently just as we needed “affirmative action” to undo the evils of racism, in the same way it’s not enough to refrain from interfering in other governments, we have to interfere now to undo the imperialism we practiced back in the eighties. (Never mind this is going to require a war in which lots of people end up dead).

I am not kidding you, that is the thought process on the left.

Also, is everybody so clueless about Latin American politics that they missed the Catholic church openly siding with the new Honduras government against the ousted President? That is huge!

Why is everyone ignoring that?

Sackett on July 6, 2009 at 8:20 PM

guntotinglibertarian, you’ve got it right.

Elduende, again, you always come through with the good information.

Maybe our military should say all this commie action so close to our borders means that we need to invade them all soon.

How would OAS and Alba like them apples?

This is just so stupid. These are direct military threats against a sovereign nation following its own Constitution, Supreme Court, Congress, Attorney General, and laws. This is Adolf Hitler all over again. Send in the agitators and then go in to “restore order”.

Just seems like there should be a way to stop this transparent crap.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 8:36 PM

Jiangxi Dad, everything Obama’s done from day one has confirmed the suspicions we all had about him. This is one time I wish I hadn’t been right though.

Again, though, I wonder why the repubs are silent on this.

It occurred to me once that Obama was risking the Latino vote over this, but if Chavez is fixing the numbers in the electronic voting system Obama doesn’t need to worry about screwing the Latinos. As we see he’s not one bit worried about it. Seems like some of those rent-a-mobs from the immigration rallies should be able to be activated in protest of this, unless they’re all Che’ folks too.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 8:42 PM

“ Bring the damned son of a bitch out! My order was to hang 30 and by God I’ll do it
William Amos on July 6, 2009 at 7:54 PM

We don’t even have the backbone to waterboard terrorists let alone traitors.

fourdeucer on July 6, 2009 at 8:57 PM

This is just so stupid. These are direct military threats against a sovereign nation

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 8:36 PM

More than that, they’re an ally, but does anybody know if we have some sort of defense pact with Honduras?

FloatingRock on July 6, 2009 at 9:00 PM

Again, though, I wonder why the repubs are silent on this.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 8:42 PM

Well, it’s not like this is the first time they’ve dropped the ball. I don’t think that Republican leaders know something we don’t, rather that they don’t know as much as we do and probably don’t care enough to comment about it.

I checked out YouTube last night hoping to find some comments about this from Liz Cheney and was disappointed to not find anything.

FloatingRock on July 6, 2009 at 9:05 PM

rather that they don’t know as much as we do and probably don’t care enough to comment about it.

Even Rush, Levin and Beck don’t seem to know half as much about it as many of us here, although they are on the right side at least.

FloatingRock on July 6, 2009 at 9:06 PM

More than that, they’re an ally, but does anybody know if we have some sort of defense pact with Honduras?

FloatingRock on July 6, 2009 at 9:00 PM

We have mor ethan a pact. We have Soto Cano Air Base there, complete with over 600 US military personnel.

MikeA on July 6, 2009 at 9:13 PM

This would be a real good time for military folks to honor their oath to the Constitution and refuse to follow the orders of our Constitutionally ineligible president.

Make Obama’s own Constitutional problem put him out of commission to “fix” Zelaya’s Constitutional problem.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 9:21 PM

If I remember correctly, the military is suspending its cooperation with Honduras until they figure out if this was a “coup”. Wonder who gets to make the definition.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 9:23 PM

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 9:21 PM

Do you think the left would feel the same sympathy for military folks who refused to obey an unconstitutional order that they had for the ones the refused to fight in the Middle East? Naw. Me neither.

MikeA on July 6, 2009 at 9:23 PM

Even Rush, Levin and Beck don’t seem to know half as much about it as many of us here, although they are on the right side at least.

FloatingRock on July 6, 2009 at 9:06 PM
I think a lot of people including the republican leadership are suffering information overload. No One could have predicted pushing such a radical agenda in all these directions at once.

fourdeucer on July 6, 2009 at 9:25 PM

I don’t think the left has any understanding of military folks at all.

As I understand it, it’s actually part of the UCMJ that an officer can’t plead ignorance when accused of following an unlawful order. It is his/her responsibility to know that the order is lawful and to both disobey and report unlawful orders.

Any military folks here? Do I understand that right? It’s basically the Nuremburg situation – if Hitler told me to kill a Jew just because he’s a Jew do I still do it? Not if it’s against the law. If Obama is not Constitutionally eligible to be the Commander-in-Chief then it is unlawful to follow his orders.

And the most interesting thing is that the “natural-born citizen” requirement was said by the legal authorities at the time of the Constitution’s writing to be especially important because the president is the commander-in-chief, and the military needs to know its leader is not actually trying to subvert the nation.

Those old guys were smart. Their counsel is right on, and very, very timely.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 9:30 PM

There are a bunch of military guys who have asked Obama to deal with the eligibility question because they don’t want to be given an order and hesitate because they honestly don’t know what’s the right thing to do.

They could be court-martialed for doing the wrong thing.

You’d think Obama would recognize the seriousness of the issue for these guys.

You’d also be wrong. It’s all about him. He has nothing to give to the people who lay their lives on the line – not even the knowledge they need to be able to do their job.

It disgusts me. Our military people are the best we have. They deserve infinitely more than a fraud flipping them the bird.

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 9:44 PM

Unless you have read Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent , you will simply not understand my friends.

Shakes head.

/sarc

Dr. ZhivBlago on July 6, 2009 at 10:02 PM

Despots R Us

Barack only wants to spread the wealth around.

And you can’t do that Constitutionally.

So he’ll perform a by-pass.

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde Dr. Barry and Mr. Obama: the two faces of the POTUS-TOTUS.

profitsbeard on July 6, 2009 at 10:17 PM

Why is Obama administration supporting Zelaya instead of rule of law?

Professional courtesy?

Akzed on July 6, 2009 at 11:06 PM

Why is Obama administration supporting Zelaya instead of rule of law?

“Simple grasshopper, he’s a filthy elitist communist heathen.”

Sam_I_Am on July 6, 2009 at 11:23 PM

justincase on July 6, 2009 at 9:30 PM

Yes, you are essentialy correct.

After the Nuremburg trials it was determined that following orders was not an adequate defense…

And My Lai in Viet Nam was the US test case for this idea.

So now, every Military person is repsonsible for second guessing their orders even if given by Command Authority (Presidential order).

Even following SOP and the ROEs your given are not always an adequate defense…

Its scary out there.

Romeo13 on July 7, 2009 at 12:45 AM

Hillary to meet with Zelaya

William Amos on July 6, 2009 at 6:49 PM

“The Liar” meets Zelaya.

virgo on July 7, 2009 at 12:54 AM

socialism supports socialism

its simple

allrsn on July 7, 2009 at 1:53 AM

I just wonder how badly conservative ideas (including respect for the rule of law, freedom of speech, justice etc) should be screwed by liberals and conservatives defeated by liberals before some conservatives finally start actually behaving as if they are at propaganda war with them and not in some sort of bizzare mutual venture where Left are good guys who also no doubt respect and defend these noble things but always to screw them up because they are “misguided”, “stupid”, “clueless” etc. The only ones who are clueless here are those conservatives who continue to believe this.

Alexey on July 7, 2009 at 4:33 AM

before some conservatives finally start actually behaving as if they are at propaganda war with them and not in some sort of bizzare mutual venture where Left are good guys who also no doubt respect and defend these noble things but always to screw them up because they are “misguided”, “stupid”, “clueless” etc. The only ones who are clueless here are those conservatives who continue to believe this.

This is the dividing line between the Kathleen Parkers, Frums, Noonans of the world, and many of the commenters here. And people naturally quest. exactly where Ed and AP stand in regard to that. Are we at war, or not, seems to be the question to me. Clearly, McCain and Bush didn’t think we had a war at home, as they chose not to mount an offensive.

JiangxiDad on July 7, 2009 at 8:05 AM

This is the dividing line between the Kathleen Parkers, Frums, Noonans of the world, and many of the commenters here. And people naturally quest. exactly where Ed and AP stand in regard to that. Are we at war, or not, seems to be the question to me. Clearly, McCain and Bush didn’t think we had a war at home, as they chose not to mount an offensive.

Not sure I agree with you. Kathaleen Parker, Frum, Noonan etc are RINOs. Whatever is the reason they brand themselves as “conservatives, it is not respect for conservative values. People like Ed on the other hand are real conservatives, but the problem is they suffer from a severe case of projection: they think if they have moral compass and are guided by it, then so do others, unless they present crystal clear proof of the contrary like murdering an innocent, raping a child etc. But if someone only support vicious murderers or don’t have a bad word to say about them it must be because they are deluded, if someone hates or devaluates people on basis of their skin or wealth it must be because they just selectively care for poor etc.
And thus we don’t need to fight them since at heart they are just like us, only are perpetually misguided for whatever reason.

If you’re not sure whether you’re at war or not I suggest you clear it up quickly, cause it may end up badly for your values if you mistake people who don’t give a damn about them for people who love them as much as you do. The first thing you can do is ask yourself what was the last time you really cared about somebody, but do not imagine yourself having a moral outrage at someone who will deliberately murder this person, or not having any dislike of such a scum. Because the Left (let’s take Hollywood for clear cut example) do not dislike violent thugs, terrorists and bloody dictators at all. Although they show us that they are quite capable of disliking people – conservatives. And this is just one example.

Alexey on July 7, 2009 at 10:05 AM

The first thing you can do is ask yourself what was the last time you really cared about somebody, but do not imagine yourself having a moral outrage at someone who will deliberately murder this person, or not having any dislike of such a scum
Alexey at 10:05

>>>>>>

Bingo! Love always carries the element of justice. How can I say I care about Hondurans if I would stand with those who intend to rape Hondurans? I can’t.

The Bible says that in the end times “because of the increase of wickedness the love of most will grow cold”. That is precisely where we are at. In the interest of being “nice” most people have abandoned LOVE – the balance between mercy and justice.

I think Ed may be torn by the whole idea of not bearing false witness – which is explained by Luther (not Catholic, I know. lol) as “putting the best construction on everything” versus an understanding of Revelation, where the religious and political beasts both end up serving the Dragon (Satan). The Bible is clear that we have very real enemies, and that evil exists. In fact, one of the central beliefs of Christianity is that mankind is fallen, prone to evil, and that we will all have to fight the bad urges our whole life long.

The other question is whether we are ever called to fight OTHER PEOPLE. The image of Jesus is that He is pacifist. And the early Church did suffer persecution without fighting back physically. But I dare you to read the epistles and say there are no fighting words in there. Calling a spade a spade is what it was all about – spades in our own personal lives AND in the views and lives of groups opposed to us.

And the Old Testament is full of the idea that God does His work through political events also, to bring people to repentance. It also speaks of justice, and of the need for all of us to demand that right be done. Not just that the hungry be fed (typical liberal view of Christianity) but also that those who steal and kill should get their just rewards for it.

My better half wishes I would just stay out of politics and only focus on the next world. I just can’t. I don’t see that being consistent with the whole of Scripture. How can I not care what happens to the Hondurans and still say I have the love of Christ in me? How can I consign my children to a life of Sharia if I can do something to stop it now?

I would LOVE it if we had a thread basically discussing the reasons why so many people are apathetic even though they consider themselves to be “good people”. Ed, are you up for it?

justincase on July 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM

Romeo13, I don’t understand all the technical jargon of it, but these officers filed some kind of suit required to go up the chain of command to answer the eligibility question so the officers would know if their CIC’s commands are lawful. The head military guy that it went to just a few days ago ruled that Obama isn’t in the military chain of command because he is a civilian. So the military can’t force him to prove his lawfulness to give military commands.

How can you have the head of the chain of command – the Commander-in-Chief – not be a part of the chain of command?

Sometimes I feel like we’ve entered the Twilight Zone.

justincase on July 7, 2009 at 11:50 AM

Jiangxi Dad, I think Bush didn’t fight the war at home for two reasons:

1. Cloward-Piven was keeping him busy with ethics charges, etc so it was a major hassle just executing the war on terror, which was his top priority.

2. He had a loser for a press secretary until Tony Snow came along.

justincase on July 7, 2009 at 11:59 AM

So it’s ok for us to ‘meddle’ in the internal affairs of another country to reinstate a marxist dictator, but not ok to meddle to support democratic reformers? Once again a dyed in the wool libtard administration acts in ways to devastate liberty and freedom.

eaglewingz08 on July 7, 2009 at 12:26 PM

Where’s Hillary in all of this?

Lame Duck SoS?

Upstater85 on July 6, 2009 at 5:27 PM

She is under Obama’s bus changing the oil.

-Dave

Dave R. on July 7, 2009 at 6:34 PM

Obama doesn’t follow the rule of law himself.

Since the Marxist coup kicked-off here last January 21, Obama has been trampling all over our nation’s Constitution.

He has since illegally seized the financial, banking and mortgage industries, 2/3 of our automobile producers, and is now going after our health care system.

So far, outside of a few feeble protestations on the part of Sen. Robert Byrd, nothing has been done about any of it.

Turbo Tax Timmy and his cronies have yet to be prosecuted for extortion, and not so much as a whimper his been raised over Obama’s seeking to circumvent the Senate when it comes to international treaties.

The only hurdle they have left to get over to complete their coup is imposing ObamaCare on this nation. I believe they will be successful, and damned soon.

Once they get that in place, it’s over.

-Dave

Dave R. on July 7, 2009 at 6:56 PM

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