Marines meeting little resistance in Helmand

posted at 4:35 pm on July 3, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

After the first day of the new major offensive in Helman province, 4,000 US Marines have thus far met little resistance as they push their way into the Taliban-controlled southern end of Afghanistan.  Instead of fighting, many Marines have established themselves in the villages and begun coordinating with local leaders to root out any terrorists hiding in the advance area.  One Marine has been killed, as has the highest-ranking British officer to die in combat in this theater:

U.S. Marines moved into villages in Taliban strongholds in southern Afghanistan on Friday, meeting little resistance as they tried to win over local chiefs on the second day of the biggest American military operation here since the fall of the Taliban government in 2001.

One Marine was killed and several others wounded on Thursday, when some 4,000 Marines launched the operation in Helmand province — a remote area that is at the center of the country’s illegal opium cultivation, which helps finance the insurgency.

So far, however, there has been little resistance from the Taliban, according to a military spokesman Capt. Bill Pelletier. …

Britain’s Defense Ministry said a roadside bomb Wednesday in Helmand killed two soldiers, including the most senior U.K. officer to have died in combat in Afghanistan. Lt. Col. Rupert Thorneloe was the commanding officer of the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards.

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown praised Thorneloe as someone “I admire and someone who will be missed by all his colleagues in the armed forces for the leadership he gave, the bravery he showed and the professionalism at all times he exhibited.”

The mission focuses on winning hearts and minds in Helmand, the nation’s primary region for opium.  Part of that will entail massive investments in infrastructure.  The farmers of that region have no way to store crops in the harsh winters — no electricity, no refrigeration, and no reliable transportation paths.  Opium provides a reliable year-round income because it doesn’t require refrigeration and never spoils.  Unfortunately, the Taliban have a thriving loan-sharking business in Helmand that enslaves the farmers and forces them to grow opium in order to keep from being killed or having their children stolen from them, although lately that’s not much of a guarantee.

If the Marines can secure Helmand, the Taliban will not just lose ground but also a big part of their revenue.  Successful counter-insurgency work will create trust between locals and the US, much as we saw in Iraq once we began working within the social-tribal system there.  The lack of initial resistance is a good sign that we can use softer methods on the ground to kick the struts out of the Taliban in the most critical region for their survival in Afghanistan.

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Hope the Sea-Bees are right behind them building roads and running power.

Iblis on July 3, 2009 at 4:40 PM

May God Bless and protect all of our fighting men and women. Our prayers are with you.

Zorro on July 3, 2009 at 4:42 PM

They’d better not meddle.

Akzed on July 3, 2009 at 4:43 PM

The Marines have landed…the situation is well at hand.

Semper Fi Mac

the Coondawg on July 3, 2009 at 4:43 PM

Send those woman-beating subhuman monsters to an early meetup in hell with their moon god and his false prophet! Go Marines!

And keep this in mind – dead terrorists can’t come back to haunt you with a sleazeball lawyer team from the American Communists and Lunatics Union.

Stay sharp, stay alive, and stay strong. Some of those who you risk your lives protecting still support you 110%!

Dark-Star on July 3, 2009 at 5:11 PM

I’m sure the others would come to show their support, but they are all in the Palin thread right now.

pseudonominus on July 3, 2009 at 5:22 PM

After the first day of the new major offensive in Helman province, 4,000 US Marines have thus far met little resistance as they push their way into the Taliban-controlled southern end of Afghanistan.

That’s not good. If the enemy does not come out to engage it’s rather hard to do them much damage.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 5:30 PM

The mission focuses on winning hearts and minds in Helmand, the nation’s primary region for opium.

Oh boy. Here we go again.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 5:31 PM

Marine Mission in Afghanistan: Drink Tea, Eat Goat, Get to Know the People

This deployment, the headline tells us, is “a Crucial Test for Revised U.S. Strategy.” (Uh-oh is right.) And what is that strategy? On the one hand, the Taliban is off the hook. On the other, we have given our men Mission Impossible. “Our focus is not the Taliban,” Brig. Gen. Lawrence D. Nicholson told his officers. “Our focus must be getting this government back on its feet.”

A few questions, just to get the brain working: Why? What do we care about putting “this government” back on its feet? And what government? And since when is it the Marines’ mission to stand up governments? (Since Iraq. Enough said.)

I don’t know how many times I’ve read a statement like this one today in The Post from the US: “Mullen said he is `extremely concerned’ about the paucity of Afghan National Army and Afghan police forces in the south and elsewhere….” Funny how, as the Post also reports, $5 a day gets the Taliban as many fighters as needed. Mullen doesn’t seem to wonder why the Taliban draw men with five bucks and the US-supported Afghan government doesn’t with billions. Or, why the Islamic jihadists draw fighters with five bucks and the infidel-supported government doesn’t with billions. In fact, Mullen thinks the problem is “the long-standing deficit in the number of foreign [read: infidel] military trainers….”

And what are we going to do?

Once Marine units arrive in their designated towns and villages, they have been instructed to build and live in small outposts among the local population.

This sounds familiar…where have we heard it before?

“We’re not going to measure your success by the number of times your ammunition is resupplied. . . . Our success in this environment will be very much predicated on restraint,” he told a group of officers from the 2nd Battalion, 8th Marines on Sunday. “You’re going to drink lots of tea. You’re going to eat lots of goat. Get to know the people. That’s the reason why we’re here.”

It’s a mad world.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 5:34 PM

Circa 2012:

Just about three years ago I set out on Obama’s Afghanistan road,
Seekin’ my fame and glory, lookin’ to turn the mullah’s hemorrhoid into a pot of gold.
Well, things got bad, and things got worse, I guess you will know the tune.
Oh ! lord, stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan again.

Flew in on a big plane, I hope I’ll be in one piece flyin out when I go.
I was just passin’ through, must now be yet another 2 tours or more.
Running out of time and patience, looks like they took more of my friends.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan again.

The Hope and Change man in the White House said yet again I was on my way.
Somewhere I lost his connection, he ran out of words to say.
I came into Kabul, a one year stand, looks like the plans fell through again
Oh ! lord, stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan again.

Mmmm…
If I only had a woman, for evry Obama tour Ive done.
And evry time Ive had to fight while LBJ BHO sat back home power drunk.
You know, Id like to catch the next plane back to where Im from.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan again.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan again.

- CCR Soldier Boy

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 5:40 PM

Let Afghanistan go

Saw an unforgettably stark photo of Taliban fighters in Afghanistan’s Wardak province, the same province Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen visited this week: Eight robed, turbaned fighters, a sandy ridge, a cloudy sky. All that was missing was the incoming American drone strike to turn the men into dust.

Question: Should the United States call in that strike? How great a security threat to the United States do these eight barbarians pose? How many dollars, how much blood is it worth to our nation to pulverize them into that lunar-like landscape?

I recently read a military e-mail from Afghanistan that marveled over a similar scene: “As far as BDA (battle damage assessment) goes, check this one out. 2 GBU 36′s (bomblets) dropped the other day on estimated 6 guys!!!! That is half a million dollars on 6 guys!!!!” The e-mailer guessed that all the sniper ammunition the jihadists have used in the whole war hasn’t cost close to that.

This is not to suggest that there is no war or enemies to fight, which is what both the Left and the Paleo-Right will say; there most certainly are. But sinking all possible men, materiel and bureaucracy into Afghanistan, as the Obama people and most conservatives favor, to try to bring a corrupt Islamic culture into working modernity while simultaneously fighting Taliban and wading deep into treacherous Pakistani wars is no way to victory — at least not to U.S. victory. On the contrary, it is the best way to bleed and further degrade U.S. military capabilities. Indeed, if I were a jihad chieftain, I couldn’t imagine a better strategy than to entrap tens of thousands of America’s very best young men in an open-ended war of mortal hide-and-seek in the North West Frontier.

I decided to ask someone with real military experience how we could fend off jihad without further digging ourselves into Central Asia. I called up retired Maj. Gen. Paul Vallely, one of the few top military leaders who talks on the record, to ask for his strategy recommendation for Afghanistan.

“Basically, let it go,” he said.

Let Afghanistan go — music to my ears, particularly given the source is no Hate-America-First professor or Moveon-dot-org-nik, but a lifelong patriotic conservative warrior. “There’s nothing to win there,” he explained, engaging in an all-too-exotic display of common sense. “What do you get for it? What’s the return? Well, the return’s all negative for the United States.”

The general continued: “This doesn’t mean giving up battle. What it means is you transition to a more realistic, affordable strategy that keeps them (the jihadist enemy) from spreading.”

Such a strategy, Vallely explained, relies on “the maximum use of unconventional forces,” such as Navy SEALS and other special forces, who can be deployed as needed from what are known in military parlance as “lily pads” — outposts or jumping-off points in friendly countries (Israel, Northern Kurdistan, India, Philippines, Italy, Djibouti … ) and from U.S. aircraft carrier strike groups. Such strike groups generally include eight to 10 vessels “with more fire power,” the general noted, “than most nations.” These lily pads become “bases we can launch from any time we want to,” eliminating the need for massive land bases such as Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, by now a small city of 20,000 American personnel who continuously need to be supplied and secured at enormous expense.

“There’s no permanent force,” the general said. “That’s the beauty of it.” We watch, we wait and when U.S. interests are threatened, “we basically use our strike forces to take them out, target by target.” This would work whether the threat came from Al Qaeda, Pakistani nukes or anything else.

He continued: “This idea that we’re going to go in and bring democracy to these tribal cultures isn’t going to work. If we have a problem with terrorist countries, like Iran, it’s a lot cheaper to go in and hit them and get back out.”

In other words, don’t give up the battle; just give up the nation-building. “It’s up to somebody else to build nations,” the general said. “Not us.”

He went on: That old myth that (Colin) Powell had — if you break it you own it — that’s a myth. You break it, you decide whether you own it. You don’t have to go in and own it.”

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 5:43 PM

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 5:43 PM

It is never the generals and soldiers who surrender, but the accountants. Unfortunately our idiotic bureaucracy may well make it necessary to repeat Vietnam before our entire economy implodes.

Dark-Star on July 3, 2009 at 5:51 PM

Hope the Sea-Bees are right behind them building roads and running power.

Iblis on July 3, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Could not agree more.

Marines will kick ass and take names the way Marines do. However until there is some sort of infrastructure built up, the farmers have no choice but to go back to growing opium.

F15Mech on July 3, 2009 at 5:57 PM

The new Commander of Af’stan, U.S. Army General Stanley A. McChrystal, is as tough as they come, has his controversy, and with a pragmatic and practical Gates, has a viable plan to put the heat on the Taliban. In parallel with Gates installing McChrystal, The Sec of Defense has also beefed up SOCOM funding from around $5 billion last year to well over $8 billion in this year’s budget.

SOCOM has been successful with a money, hearts, and minds type campaign centered on being nice, being respectful, being helpful (especially with Spec Ops superb medical care being deployed into villages), listening politely, staying quiet and out of the way, and striking like cobras when the enemy draws near. Now the Marines are doubling down and clearing a large area. Once that’s done you’ll be reading more stories where Taliban fighters enter an area, then a few days later another story of US/Afghan forces eliminating the bad guys with the local tribe pitching in and supplying a lot of the muscle, typically at $200/fighter/month. Friendly tribal chiefs get a more.

The Afghans are smart enough to know the Taliban abuse the tribes and councils and act like ruthless killers that use fear and kidnapping of family and children to intimidate. They know the Americans try and help, are trying to be respectful to tribe councils and leaders but can be vastly more deadly when provoked. Whose side do you think the tribes want in on? The native bad guys who kill them or the foreign helpful guys who kill the bad guys?

MarkT on July 3, 2009 at 5:57 PM

US Marine Corps = no better friend, no worse enemy. Make nice and all will be well. Want to fight? We can do that too, and the scars will be seen for a millenia.

KillerKane on July 3, 2009 at 6:06 PM

MarkT on July 3, 2009 at 5:57 PM

Thats fine and a good direction for the Marines however the big picture is still being missed.

F15Mech on July 3, 2009 at 6:10 PM

Taliban have a thriving loan-sharking business in Helmand that enslaves the farmers and forces them to grow opium
(from the article)

This is not the Taliban I thought I knew.

Is there anybody with first-hand knowledge who can confirm that it is the Taliban who are the ones forcing opium production? I was under the impression that the Taliban were strongly opposed to it and that one of the few good things they did when they were in power a decade ago was to halt opium production.

YiZhangZhe on July 3, 2009 at 6:16 PM

So let me get this straight MB4 – you think, or rather you let others think for you, that allowing Afghanistan to fester is the way to go? Yeah, how’d that work out for us last time?

And this business with the super leet Alpha Delta SEAL Strike Force !!!ONEONE! is getting old. Look at the logistics of that. Anytime you infil it’s a massive setup of men and resources, and you’re advocating that we just resign ourselves to stepping in however often to assisinate some people and hope it stays okay? How many people will we need on our payroll to figure out who the bad guys are or where they are? Hell, we have trouble with that NOW even with our large contingent of forces.

Someone should read up on the CAP program. It enjoyed pretty decent success until it was discontinued in Vietnam. This is an evolution of that – it will allow us to control a large portion of the Taliban’s agricultural area which they derive immense profits from, and eventually they’ll want it back. When they come in to get it, well, that’s when they get killed. If they wish to starve in the hills, let them, but cut them off from money and influence.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 6:16 PM

MarkT on July 3, 2009 at 5:57 PM

Unfortunately, we were doing the exact same thing in that area in 02. There was very little enemy activity for us to deal with and the locals/warlords made bundles of money. Problem is, the Taliban doesn’t want to fight us as much as they want to terrorize the local population. Now, like in 02, when our combat forces go through an area, the Taliban will simply pop stakes and leave for a little while only to return after we’ve left.

The problem with this whole campaign is 4,000 troops isn’t nearly enough manpower to saturate the area. It’s not that the population of Afghans is all that large, but they’re spread out all over the place in small villages separated by terrain that’s a nightmare to travel. There aren’t roads in the conventional sense and a lot of the country is covered by land mine fields. All this will make it very difficult for our forces to force the enemy to engage us, and if we can’t get them to engage we’ll be right back to square one in a year or two. No matter how successful the operation looks in the short term.

Of course I hope I’m wrong, and God bless our guys for going over there.

Interweb Troll on July 3, 2009 at 7:25 PM

heh….

MB4, was the cut-n-paste particularly difficult to figger out? I run a forum myself (truck related, non-political stuff) and last year, we had a problem with Ron Paul supporters dropping in with cut-n-paste diatribes.

I have no problem with hearing what you think but would appreciate being spared the spam.

Hootowl on July 3, 2009 at 7:28 PM

4,000 Marines don’t generally ever meet much resistance.

Professor Blather on July 3, 2009 at 7:49 PM

Let Afghanistan go…How many dollars, how much blood is it worth to our nation to pulverize [Taliban] into that lunar-like landscape?

We tried that once. Results? WTC got attacked twice, Khobar Towers was brought down, two embassies in east Africa where attacked, the USS Cole and the Pentagon attacked, a smoldering hole in western Pennsylvania, on the order of 4,000 lives lost.

How much did that cost?

I R A Darth Aggie on July 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM

If the Marines can secure Helmand

Ed

It’s already secured, they just haven’t had time to go around and inform all the Taliban.

OK, a little bravado and exaggeration. However, “If the Marines” is a bad start to a sentence when talking about Marines.

Go rip ‘em a new one Devil Dogs!

Hog Wild on July 3, 2009 at 8:17 PM

So let me get this straight MB4 – you think, or rather you let others think for you, that allowing Afghanistan to fester is the way to go?

Afghanistan isn’t worth a Mullah’s hemorrhoid to America, certainly not so much blood and treasue. We only got into Afghanistan because the Taliban were foolish enough to rent some fleabag caves to AlQ.

Yeah, how’d that work out for us last time?

Vietnam? Been there, done that.

Indochina is devoid of decisive military objectives and the allocation of more than token US armed forces in Indochina would be a serious diversion of limited US capabilities.
- Joint Chiefs of Staff, 26 May 1954

The United States intervened in the Vietnam War on behalf of a weak and incompetent ally, and it pursued a conventional military victory against a wily, elusive, and extraordinarily determined opponent who shifted to ultimately decisive conventional military operations only after inevitable American political exhaustion undermined potentially decisive US military responses. Even had the United States attained a conclusive military decision, its cost would have exceeded any possible benefit. Vietnam was then, and remains today, a strategic backwater. The United States could not have prevented the forcible reunification of Vietnam under communist auspices at a morally, materially, and strategically acceptable price.
- The US Army War College Quarterly, Winter 1996-97

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
- George Santayana

Someone should read up on the CAP program. It enjoyed pretty decent success until it was discontinued in Vietnam.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 6:16 PM

lol. I had a 8105 mos.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 8:28 PM

heh….

MB4, was the cut-n-paste particularly difficult to figger out? I run a forum myself (truck related, non-political stuff) and last year, we had a problem with Ron Paul supporters dropping in with cut-n-paste diatribes.

So that is your response. Ad hominem and boiler plate ad hominem at that? Maybe you had best stick to playing with your trucks.

I have no problem with hearing what you think but would appreciate being spared the spam.

Hootowl on July 3, 2009 at 7:28 PM

If you think that such as Ralph Peters, Diana West, Maj. Gen. Paul Vallely, the Joint Chiefs of Staff and The US Army War College are spam, then you have a problem.

BTW, I hate to be the one to have to break it to you but I don’t comment to try to get your “appreciation”.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 8:45 PM

Let Afghanistan go…How many dollars, how much blood is it worth to our nation to pulverize [Taliban] into that lunar-like landscape?

We tried that once. Results? WTC got attacked twice, Khobar Towers was brought down, two embassies in east Africa where attacked, the USS Cole and the Pentagon attacked, a smoldering hole in western Pennsylvania, on the order of 4,000 lives lost.

How much did that cost?

I R A Darth Aggie on July 3, 2009 at 7:59 PM

And you are under the impression that these attacks were done by Taliban? I think you need to get some new G2.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 8:51 PM

No electricity etc, but yet we are not promoting the installation of Gobar Gas System for Afghanistan. In a recent article written by Michael Yon (http://www.michaelyon-online.com/quick-email-from-borneo-island-ii.htm) while reporting on British training on how to physically track the enemy an interesting topic came up while talking to Nepalese soldier. I have written many suggesting that the US government follow the soldiers advice and invest in the Gobar Gas system for Afghanistan. From the article:

During breaks from tracking training – I was sweating like crazy in the jungle heat – I asked many questions about Afghanistan and Nepal, and he talked about a simple way to make many of the Afghans lives easier. Most Afghans don’t even have electricity. When he was about fifteen years-old, his dad installed a “Gobar Gas” (methane) generator next to the house in Nepal. The generator is simple: the owner just collects human and animal waste, and through a fantastically simple process, the contraption creates methane, which is then used for lighting, cooking, heating in the winter. It also creates excellent fertilizer, all while improving sanitation. What’s the catch? None that I’ve heard of. He said that his dad made the first Gobar Gas system in his village, and today it would costs maybe $300 total investment. Between their own toilet and four cows, they create enough methane to cook, heat and light the house. More than two decades after his dad made it, the thing is still working and doesn’t cost a single rupee to operate. When the other villagers saw it work, hundreds of Gobar Gas systems popped up around the village. I’ve seen these systems in use in Nepal, and photographed one about five years ago. It worked like a charm. But this Nepalese man, a British soldier, never saw a Gobar Gas system in Afghanistan, but he is certain that the idea would take hold in the villages. My guess is that the only real disadvantage is that the idea is incredibly effective, simple and cheap, and so we probably wouldn’t want to get involved.

Nepal is very similar to Afghanistan and it if worked there, well . . . .

amr on July 3, 2009 at 9:04 PM

The politicians and the A.D.D., Michael Jackson obsessed society we live in will decide if we are successful in Afghanistan, or not. There is NO question our troops can do the job, if they are allowed to do it.

One other thing we can count on, now that the Messiah is in the White House, Harry Reid will never declare this war “lost.”

Star20 on July 3, 2009 at 9:30 PM

The Marines have landed…the situation is well at hand.

Semper Fi Mac

the Coondawg on July 3, 2009 at 4:43 PM

Ooo-Rah!

El Coqui on July 3, 2009 at 9:32 PM

MB4, I findi t totally awesome that you respond to posts complaing about your cutting and pasting with…

Cutting and Pasting. That’s just full of win. So you were a CAO, huh? Good times. For some reason I was laboring under the notion that you had been a gun rock.

That being said, I propose that we replace you with a small shell script that simply responds to all posts with Mark Twain quotes, a modified version of someone else’s original lyrics, or a random quote along the lines of American isolationism.

How great was our economic benefit for rebuilding Germany or Japan? How many people thought it would be worth it in 1944? I realize that if it helps people who don’t look like you be free or have improved living conditions and functional or at least semi-representative governments, you’re against it, but you could at least pretend.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 10:16 PM

And you are under the impression that these attacks were done by Taliban? I think you need to get some new G2.

So I take you to mean theat the Taliban were not state sponsors of terror? Or are you asserting that the Taliban did not knowingly aid and harbor the logisitics, financial, and training base of the group responsible for those attacks?

You may have something on the first attempt at the WTC, but the rest of those were carried out after Al Qaeda established itself in Afghanistan, as a guest of the Taliban.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 10:28 PM

“I recently read a military e-mail from Afghanistan that marveled over a similar scene: “As far as BDA (battle damage assessment) goes, check this one out. 2 GBU 36′s (bomblets) dropped the other day on estimated 6 guys!!!! That is half a million dollars on 6 guys!!!!” The e-mailer guessed that all the sniper ammunition the jihadists have used in the whole war hasn’t cost close to that”

Mb4
Me think someone’s pulling Diana West leg here. GBU – 36 is a slap on unit for “dumb bombs” specifically the Mk 80 series bomb (500lb, bombs just like the WW2 bombs)

That bomb Unit Cost is $268.50.

It was used to make a “dumb bomb” a precision strike weapon that will be within 3 meters of its target.

She mentioned “bomblets” which means “sub- Munitions” which means “cluster bombs”

Cluster bombs are a lot of things, one thing Cluster bombs are not is a “precision strike weapon

Cluster bombs are used to as an area denial weapon; they spread their sub- Munitions out over a couple hundred meters.

Unless Rube Goldberg is now in charge of the US Air Force, slapping a GBU – 36 on a “cluster bomb” would be both stupid and self defeating.

Another problem the GBU – 36, slapped on a MK 80 series bomb was known as “GAM-84″

Was is the operative word here is “was” cuz GBU – 36 was a “fill in” system till the new low cost JDAM units would be available in 1998.

If you haven’t checked a calendar lately uhm 1998 was like ya know 11 years ago.

DSchoen on July 3, 2009 at 10:48 PM

Me think someone’s pulling Diana West leg here.

DSchoen on July 3, 2009 at 10:48 PM

On the alphabet soup nomenclature, could be, but I do not see how that changes any of her basic points.

So I take you to mean theat the Taliban were not state sponsors of terror? Or are you asserting that the Taliban did not knowingly aid and harbor the logisitics, financial, and training base of the group responsible for those attacks?

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 10:28 PM

I wrote clearly. Reread what I said.

Better yet read what Daniel Pipes and Maj. Gen. Paul Vallely have said.

“We” have been in Afghanistan now for almost eight years and the situation is no better than it was 7 years ago. Does anyone think that what Bush could not do in 7 years LBJ Obama is going to be able to do? He who does not learn from the past is doomed to repeat it. I really do not at all get how some have such an unnatural fondness for “Islamic Nation Building”.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 11:06 PM

DSchoen,

That was so beautiful I’m wiping tears from my eyes.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 11:11 PM

MB4, I findi t totally awesome that you respond to posts complaing about your cutting and pasting with…

Cutting and Pasting. That’s just full of win.

And I find it “totally awesome” that you respond with a torrential flood of juvenile ad hominem.

So you were a CAO, huh? Good times. For some reason I was laboring under the notion that you had been a gun rock.

Gun rock? Never heard of that. FA (1193) and CA (8105).

That being said, I propose that we replace you with a small shell script that simply responds to all posts with Mark Twain quotes, a modified version of someone else’s original lyrics, or a random quote along the lines of American isolationism.

And I propose that we replace you with a small shell script that simply responds to all posts with juvenile ad hominem, a modified version of someone else’s juvenile ad hominem original, or a random juvenile ad hominem.

BTW, you are coming across as a stalker. You need to watch that. It looks bad.

How great was our economic benefit for rebuilding Germany or Japan? How many people thought it would be worth it in 1944?

If you think Afghanistan is like Germany and Japan, which you apparently do, I can’t help you. I don’t know who can.

I realize that if it helps people who don’t look like you be free or have improved living conditions and functional or at least semi-representative governments, you’re against it, but you could at least pretend.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 10:16 PM

You do not realize anything of the kind. You just like calling names like a juvenile. Had you not been sleeping in class you would have noticed my position on the recent events in Iran, where I don’t “look like you”.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 11:22 PM

On the alphabet soup nomenclature, could be, but I do not see how that changes any of her basic points.

FAKE BUT ACCURATE !!1!!!eleventy

I wrote clearly. Reread what I said.

Better yet read what Daniel Pipes and Maj. Gen. Paul Vallely have said.

“We” have been in Afghanistan now for almost eight years and the situation is no better than it was 7 years ago. Does anyone think that what Bush could not do in 7 years LBJ Obama is going to be able to do? He who does not learn from the past is doomed to repeat it. I really do not at all get how some have such an unnatural fondness for “Islamic Nation Building”.

Look, I understand what you said, and I understand what he said, and what I’m saying is that you’re both wrong. I’m saying that I don’t give a flip about how many articles you can cut and paste, the national security interests of the United States are better served by a reasonably effective central government in Afghanistan than they are by leaving the country in chaos.

If we don’t finish it now, we’ll just end up doing it again. You would have thought we learned that lesson the first time we abandoned Afghanistan, but apparently idiots like you need to be reminded occasionally with spectacular mass-casualty attacks that people don’t like us and leaving failed states to harbor them is a bad GOD DAMN IDEA.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 11:25 PM

MB4, I findi t totally awesome that you respond to posts complaing about your cutting and pasting with…

Cutting and Pasting. That’s just full of win.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 10:16 PM

BTW, if you have such an aversion to links and quotations you might try just not reading them, unless you have some kind of compulsive disorder.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 11:29 PM

If you think Afghanistan is like Germany and Japan, which you apparently do, I can’t help you. I don’t know who can.

Because is has teh MOOSLIMS, right? Look, Afghanistan has a far different climate and geographical makeup than either Germany or (obviously) Japan, but it could still be a prosperous country with the right government. The infrastructure is in horrible shape because no one can stay in power long enough to do anything about it, and because everyone else busy killing … everyone else to *get* into power.

We can put a stop to a lot of that and foster the rebuilding of infrastruture, which is what we should have been doing in the first place. I think that Bush got the strategy right in Iraq *eventually*, and now it’s time to ramp up in Afghanistan as we draw down in Iraq. With a rebuilt (or in most cases simply built) infrastructure, a central government can deploy its ability to maintain authority and a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 11:33 PM

BTW, if you have such an aversion to links and quotations you might try just not reading them, unless you have some kind of compulsive disorder.

I read them in an attempt (mostly futile) to understand the basis of your viewpoint. Unless you are just posting them to pre-empt honest debate.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 11:34 PM

Look, I understand what you said

Questionable.

and I understand what he said

Questionable.

and what I’m saying is that you’re both wrong.

I’ll have to make a note of that sometime.

I’m saying that I don’t give a flip about how many articles you can cut and paste

I am so relevaed.

the national security interests of the United States are better served by a reasonably effective central government in Afghanistan than they are by leaving the country in chaos.

Chaos in Afghanistan is much more in our interest than a prolonged (almost 8 years already with the place still pretty much as it was 6 or 7 years ago) attempt to spin Gold from Straw.

If we don’t finish it now, we’ll just end up doing it again. You would have thought we learned that lesson the first time we abandoned Afghanistan

Abandoned Afghanistan? I never did get the wedding announcement notice. With all this “we” and “we’ll” you sound like you are there are are planning on going there. Good luck.

but apparently idiots like you need to be reminded occasionally with spectacular mass-casualty attacks that people don’t like us and leaving failed states to harbor them is a bad GOD DAMN IDEA.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 11:25 PM

“Idiots like you”? Wow! You sure are articulate. Cool, calm and collected too.

Frankly, you clearly come across as exceedingly juvenile. Or maybe you just got a start on your 4th of July drinking.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 11:42 PM

God bless our US forces. Give them the ability to get it on and no one is better. TCOB and keep up the good work.

dthorny on July 3, 2009 at 11:45 PM

I read them in an attempt (mostly futile) to understand the basis of your viewpoint. Unless you are just posting them to pre-empt honest debate.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 11:34 PM

LOL!!! If I wanted to try to “pre-empt honest debate” then, rather than referencing very knowledgeable people on the matter, I would just start calling people idiots.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 11:47 PM

The farmers of that region have no way to store crops in the harsh winters — no electricity, no refrigeration, and no reliable transportation paths. Opium provides a reliable year-round income because it doesn’t require refrigeration and never spoils.

Honest question.

If this is the case, why was Afghanistan not the prime opiate producer before the invasion?

Or was it?

Aquateen Hungerforce on July 3, 2009 at 11:48 PM

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 11:42 PM

If, on the off chance in your view, a situation arises in Afghanistan that deprives extremeists of a land in which to safely plan their nefarious deeds, would you consider it worthwhile?

Aquateen Hungerforce on July 3, 2009 at 11:50 PM

Because is has teh MOOSLIMS, right?

You don’t seem to know much about Islam.

Look, Afghanistan has a far different climate and geographical makeup than either Germany or (obviously) Japan, but it could still be a prosperous country with the right government.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 11:33 PM

If I had wings I could fly. It is not going to be prosperous no matter what Islamic/Shariah government it has, unless they discover massive amounts of oil deposits. Personally, I would much rather be free of Islam and Islamic law than be prosperous anyway.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 11:55 PM

“Idiots like you”? Wow! You sure are articulate. Cool, calm and collected too.

Frankly, you clearly come across as exceedingly juvenile. Or maybe you just got a start on your 4th of July drinking.

Exceedingly juvenile. Wow.

And you come across as someone with deep seated inferiority complex, who constantly seeks out people who you portray to be the sole authorities in a subject saying things that coincide with your viewpoint in order to bolster your arguments, without ever clearly defining your own personal viewpoint. When these views are challenged you resort to calling out “Ad Hominem!”, while hypocritically engaging in the precise tactic you are decrying.

Oh, and Field Artillerymen are also affectionately known as “gun rocks” in the Marines.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 11:56 PM

Oh, and MB4: I’m a muslim.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 11:57 PM

If, on the off chance in your view, a situation arises in Afghanistan that deprives extremeists of a land in which to safely plan their nefarious deeds, would you consider it worthwhile?

Aquateen Hungerforce on July 3, 2009 at 11:50 PM

No, because they would just plan them from somewhere else. They probably are doing that right now as we speak. From Pakistan? From Londonistan? From Dearbornistan? All probably more likely than from Afghanistan.

MB4 on July 3, 2009 at 11:58 PM

And you come across as someone with deep seated inferiority complex, who constantly seeks out people who you portray to be the sole authorities in a subject saying things that coincide with your viewpoint in order to bolster your arguments, without ever clearly defining your own personal viewpoint. When these views are challenged you resort to calling out “Ad Hominem!”, while hypocritically engaging in the precise tactic you are decrying.

You are really confused. I have not engaged in your “tactics”. Anyone who had nothing better to do than read your comments to me, and mine to you, could easily see that.

And I must say with your, “And you come across as someone with deep seated inferiority complex”, you have even outdone yourself this time with your ad hominem, although not original ad hominem at all. I have no inferiority complex, deep seated or otherwise, and frankly that is a strange conclusion for anyone to come to. You, however, sure seem to have a lot of rage. An awful lot of rage. Maybe you could take a self-control course sometime as self-control certainly does not seem to come naturally to you.

Oh, and Field Artillerymen are also affectionately known as “gun rocks” in the Marines.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 11:56 PM

Never heard that before. The rock part seems a very strange choice of words. In the Army it was occasionally Gun Bunny.

Oh, and MB4: I’m a muslim.

flashoverride on July 3, 2009 at 11:57 PM

If so then you, and your family, have my condolences, and that might, some would say, although it may be only anecdotal, or just infidel propaganda, explain a few things, including your high rage level and your level of self-control.

Myself, I am an atheist. Some of my ancestors were Christians. Some of my ancestors were Viking pagans.

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 12:20 AM

Never heard that before. The rock part seems a very strange choice of words. In the Army it was occasionally Gun Bunny.

That was one I heard from Soldiers transiting through Manas. I assume you’re familiar with cannon-cocker, etc etc.

as for this:

If so then you, and your family, have my condolences, and that might, some would say, although it may be only anecdotal, or just infidel propaganda, explain a few things, including your high rage level and your level of self-control.

So, basically what you are saying is that I’m full of rage because I’m a muslim, or that all muslims are full of rage, or that muslims are unable to control themselves… ?

So you don’t see the irony in Ad Homming an entire religion, while decrying the tactic of Ad Hominem attacks?

Seriously dude. What you call rage is what I call straight talk. I’m not here to talk daintily so as not to offend your sensibilities. I wouldn’t do that in real life to your face, and by god man this is a BLOG! Why would I engage is verbal obfuscation here?

I think the notion that because a country is predominantly muslim it is fundamentally incompatible with freedom or western ideals to be contemptible and downright ignorant, and I’m going to call that out where I see it. It seems to be your primary basis for wishing to disengage from Afghanistan is because muslims live there. It seems to me that was your primary basis for being against most of the activities in Iraq, as well.

I’m going to call you out on it, plain and simple. Maybe I was just a dumb comm fag NCO, but I’ve beena few places and seen a few things.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 12:34 AM

To All My Fellow Americans that are serving in the theaters of hostilities. Your service is Honorable and Appreciated!!!.
Thank you for your willingness to spread our Values of Freedom to those who seek it….No matter where they look in the sky, they will always know that the brightest light is only a feeling away!. Glimmer of Liberty n Freedom.

God Bless America
and to all my fellow Americans

hawkman on July 4, 2009 at 12:53 AM

So you don’t see the irony in Ad Homming an entire religion, while decrying the tactic of Ad Hominem attacks?

Ad hominem is Latin referring to an argument against a man rather than the subject of the argument, so I don’t see how one could “ad hominem” an entire religion.

Unlike Christianity and Judaism, and remember I am an atheist, Islam is a vile disgusting “religion”. I see no point in pretending otherwise. Read Robert Spenser’s book, “Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn’t” sometime. Are all Muslims vile? Of course not, but their sick religion sure is. The less like Mohammad, Islam’s “Perfect Man” a Muslim man is then probably the better man he is. I feel very sorry for woman who have to live under the chains of Islam’s men. Almost all Muslim men, in the Muslim world, suppress woman, and often in the extreme, or at least do not defend them.

Seriously dude. What you call rage is what I call straight talk

.

Sure seems like rage to me, but them I am pretty calm myself so I suppose it’s relative.

I’m not here to talk daintily so as not to offend your sensibilities. I wouldn’t do that in real life to your face, and by god man this is a BLOG! Why would I engage is verbal obfuscation here?

You clearly prefer to engage in juvenile name calling. I don’t think you can help yourself.

I think the notion that because a country is predominantly muslim it is fundamentally incompatible with freedom or western ideals to be contemptible and downright ignorant, and I’m going to call that out where I see it.

Well I find that your notion that it is very compatable at all to be, to use your choice of words, “contemptible and downright ignorant”, so there! I also find, again to use your words, Islam to be “contemptible and downright ignorant”.

It seems to be your primary basis for wishing to disengage from Afghanistan is because muslims live there. It seems to me that was your primary basis for being against most of the activities in Iraq, as well.

I know too much about Islam and value American troops too much to think otherwise. I might say though that Iran, if it could free itself from the sick tyrant mullahs, would be more hopeful.

I’m going to call you out on it, plain and simple. Maybe I was just a dumb comm fag NCO, but I’ve beena few places and seen a few things.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 12:34 AM

I don’t know if you are bragging or complaining.

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 1:12 AM

U.S. forces should not ordinarily be engaged in
nation-building — sorry, nation-stabilizing — nor should
they ever be engaged in Sharia-nation-stabilizing, which
is my core problem with our overall strategy in
constitutionally Sharia-supreme Iraq as well as
constitutionally Sharia-supreme Afghanistan (not to mention
the constitutionally Sharia-supreme Palestinian Authority),
but that’s another column.

Bottom line? History shows that the conditions that drove
the model transformation of Japan do not exist today with
regard to the Islamic Middle East. We’re going to need
another strategy — for starters, an immigration policy and
new laws to halt the creep of Sharia — to ward off the
Islamization of the West.
- Diana West

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 1:19 AM

I know too much about Islam and value American troops too much to think otherwise. I might say though that Iran, if it could free itself from the sick tyrant mullahs, would be more hopeful.

What are the four main schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence?

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 1:24 AM

Condi is a dangerous incompetent

Considering her remarks about America’s “birth defect” — an egregious term for any secretary of state to use about a nation that has brought more liberty to more races, colors and creeds than any in history — I am struck anew how deeply Rice’s vision of race in America, or, perhaps, in segregated Birmingham, affects her vision of America in the wider world. It is as if Rice sees American influence as a means by which to address what she perceives as disparities of race or Third World heritage on the international level.

This would help explain her ahistorical habit of linking the civil rights movement to the Bush administration’s effort to bring democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan. Indeed, in a 2003 speech to the National Association of Black Journalists, she argued that blacks, more than others, should “reject” the “condescending” argument that some are not “ready” for freedom. “That view was wrong in 1963 in Birmingham and it’s wrong in 2003 in Baghdad,” she said. In 2006, she made a similar point. “When I look around the world and I hear people say, `Well, you know, they’re just not ready for democracy,’ it really does resonate,” Rice told CBS’s Katie Couric. “It makes me so angry because I think there are those echoes of what people once thought about black Americans.”

There’s something shockingly provincial at work here. In seeing so much of the world through an American prism of race, Rice has effectively blinded herself to historical and cultural and religious differences between Islam and the West. To put it simply, neither Baghdad nor Gaza [ and even more certainly Kabul] is Birmingham. AND NOTHING IN ALL OF HISTORY QUITE COMPARES TO PHILADELPHIA.

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 1:25 AM

What are the four main schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence?

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 1:24 AM

Bad, worse, even worse, and still worse.

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 1:28 AM

Allah hates you this I know
For the Koran tells me so
Infidels Christians and Jews we bomb
They are weak but we are strong

Yes Allah hates you! Yes, Allah hates you! Yes, Allah hates you,
The Koran tells me so.

Allah hates you, you will die
Blow your ass up to the sky
Say the salat, chop off head,
Eat falafel, go to bed.

Yes, Allah hates you! Yes, Allah hates you! Yes, Allah hates you!

The Koran tells me so.

Aleph on July 4, 2009 at 1:30 AM

Bad, worse, even worse, and still worse.

Indeed, your knowledge of Islam is truly frightneing in its immense proportions! How dare I questions the judgements of a man who cannot be trifled with useless, relatively easily googled facts? Surely, you are my intellecual superior and have far greater insights into my faith than I do.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 1:35 AM

The Houses of Parliament is where Winston Churchill stood firm, and warned – all throughout the 1930’s – for the dangers looming. Most of the time he stood alone.

In 1982 President Reagan came to the House of Commons, where he did a speech very few people liked. Reagan called upon the West to reject communism and defend freedom. He introduced a phrase: ‘evil empire’. Reagan’s speech stands out as a clarion call to preserve our liberties. I quote: If history teaches anything, it teaches self-delusion in the face of unpleasant facts is folly.

What Reagan meant is that you cannot run away from history, you cannot escape the dangers of ideologies that are out to destroy you. Denial is no option.

Communism was indeed left on the ash heap of history, just as Reagan predicted in his speech in the House of Commons. He lived to see the Berlin Wall coming down, just as Churchill witnessed the implosion of national-socialism.

Today, I come before you to warn of another great threat. It is called Islam. It poses as a religion, but its goals are very worldly: world domination, holy war, sharia law, the end of the separation of church and state, the end of democracy. It is not a religion, it is a political ideology. It demands your respect, but has no respect for you.

There might be moderate Muslims, but there is no moderate Islam. Islam will never change, because it is build on two rocks that are forever, two fundamental beliefs that will never change, and will never go away. First, there is Quran, Allah’s personal word, uncreated, forever, with orders that need to be fulfilled regardless of place or time. And second, there is al-insal al-kamil, the perfect man, Muhammad the role model, whose deeds are to be imitated by all Muslims. And since Muhammad was a warlord and a conqueror we know what to expect.

Islam means submission, so there cannot be any mistake about it’s goal. That’s a given. The question is whether the British people, with its glorious past, is longing for that submission.

We see Islam taking off in the West at an incredible speed. The United Kingdom has seen a rapid growth of the number of Muslims. Over the last ten years, the Muslim population has grown ten times as fast as the rest of society. This has put an enormous pressure on society. Thanks to British politicians who have forgotten about Winston Churchill, the English now have taken the path of least resistance. They give up. They give in.

Britain seems to have become a country ruled by fear. A country where civil servants cancel Christmas celebrations to please Muslims. A country where Sharia Courts are part of the legal system. A country where Islamic organizations asked to stop the commemoration of the Holocaust. A country where a primary school cancels a Christmas nativity play because it interfered with an Islamic festival. A country where a school removes the words Christmas and Easter from their calendar so as not to offend Muslims. A country where a teacher punishes two students for refusing to pray to Allah as part of their religious education class. A country where elected members of a town council are told not to eat during daylight hours in town hall meetings during the Ramadan. A country that excels in its hatred of Israel, still the only democracy in the Middle-East. A country whose capitol is becoming ‘Londonistan’.

I would not qualify myself as a free man. Four and a half years ago I lost my freedom. I am under guard permanently, courtesy to those who prefer violence to debate. But for the leftist fan club of islam, that is not enough. They started a legal procedure against me. Three weeks ago the Amsterdam Court of Appeal ordered my criminal prosecution for making ‘Fitna’ and for my views on Islam. I committed what George Orwell called a ‘thought crime’.

You might have seen my name on Fitna’s credit role, but I am not really responsible for that movie. It was made for me. It was actually produced by Muslim extremists, the Quran and Islam itself. If Fitna is considered ‘hate speech’, then how would the Court qualify the Quran, with all it’s calls for violence, and hatred against women and Jews?

Mr. Churchill himself compared the Quran to Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf. Well, I did exactly the same, and that is what they are prosecuting me for.

I wonder if the UK ever put Mr. Churchill on trial.

The Court’s decision and the letter I received form the Secretary of State for the Home Department are two major victories for all those who detest freedom of speech. They are doing Islam’s dirty work. Sharia by proxy. The differences between Saudi-Arabia and Jordan on one hand and Holland and Britain are blurring. Europe is now on the fast track of becoming Eurabia. That is apparently the price we have to pay for the project of mass immigration, and the multicultural project.

Ladies and gentlemen, the dearest of our many freedoms is under attack. In Europe, freedom of speech is no longer a given. What we once considered a natural component of our existence is now something we again have to fight for. That is what is at stake. Whether or not I end up in jail is not the most pressing issue. The question is: Will free speech be put behind bars?

We have to defend freedom of speech.

For the generation of my parents the word ‘London’ is synonymous with hope and freedom. When my country was occupied by the national-socialists the BBC offered a daily glimpse of hope, in the darkness of Nazi tyranny. Millions of my country men listened to it, illegally. The words ‘This Is London’ were a symbol for a better world coming soon. If only the British and Canadian and American soldiers were here.

What will be transmitted forty years from now? Will it still be ‘This Is London’? Or will it be ‘this is Londonistan’? Will it bring us hope, or will it signal the values of Mecca and Medina? Will Britain offer submission or perseverance? Freedom or slavery?

The choice is ours.

Ladies and gentlemen,

We will never apologize for being free. We will never give in. We will never surrender.

Freedom must prevail, and freedom will prevail.
- Geert Wilders MP (Chairman, Party for Freedom (PVV) The Netherlands)

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 1:36 AM

Surely, you are my intellecual superior and have far greater insights into my faith than I do.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 1:35 AM

You sound like you are feeling sorry for yourself now.

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
- Winston Churchill

Here was the new Koran of faith and war: turgid, verbose, shapeless, but pregnant with its message.
- Winston Churchill (Equating Adolf Hiler’s “Mein Kampf” to the Koran in his book the “The Gathering Storm”)

When I, a thoughtful and unblessed Presbyterian, examine the Koran, I know that beyond any question every Mohammedan is insane, not in all things, but in religious matters. I cannot prove to him that he is insane, because you never can prove anything to a lunatic — for that is a part of his insanity and the evidence of it.
- Mark Twain

There is no salvaging Islam, which was founded by one of the most vile and despicable men, Islam’s “Perfect Man”, to ever walk the face of the Earth. It is an abomination on mankind and an absolute abomination on womankind. To deny it one must shut the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force.

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 1:42 AM

I am urging all Zionist and Christian forces who are working with this blasphemous infidel MB4 against brother flashoverride and the Islamic Holy Forces of Allah to submit immediately. Otherwise, we will hold them responsible for their actions. Any attempt to fight the Islamic Holy forces of Allah is pointless. We are committed to putting all of the world under our jurisdiction. You cannot commit blasphemy and act against the Islamic Holy Forces of Allah. Any individual or group that tries to fight the Islamic Holy Forces of Allah will be destroyed. The Islamic Holy Forces of Allah will overcome this blasphemous infidel MB4 and all other Zionist and Christian infidels and their Hotair stooges.
Allah willing.

The great dream of Islam will come true. Muslims dream to see flags that read: “There is no god but Allah” fluttering in the wind over The Statue of Liberty, on the Temple Mount, Haram al-Sharif, Big Ben, Buckingham Palace, Parliament Hill in Ottawa and over Hotair.
Allah willing.

Aleph on July 4, 2009 at 2:01 AM

To “win hearts and minds” you must first presume that the owners of said sources of empathy and intelligence do not utterly and eternally despise you as accursed infidel dogs who are as unclean as feces in the religous calculus of Mohammedan scholars.

You cannot win over those who revile your existence, your beliefs, your faith, and your civilization.

You can only plactae them temporarily with bribes as they rebuild their military sinews, steal your advanced technology, and then attack you with renewed ferocity, joyously and jihadistically based on the sanctified homicidal dictates of the Koran.

What the whip Islam touches is thenceforth palsied… to paraphrase Thoreau.

profitsbeard on July 4, 2009 at 2:20 AM

I am urging all Zionist and Christian forces who are working with this blasphemous infidel MB4 against brother flashoverride and the Islamic Holy Forces of Allah to submit immediately. Otherwise, we will hold them responsible for their actions. Any attempt to fight the Islamic Holy forces of Allah is pointless. We are committed to putting all of the world under our jurisdiction. You cannot commit blasphemy and act against the Islamic Holy Forces of Allah. Any individual or group that tries to fight the Islamic Holy Forces of Allah will be destroyed. The Islamic Holy Forces of Allah will overcome this blasphemous infidel MB4 and all other Zionist and Christian infidels and their Hotair stooges.
Allah willing.

First off, that’s some pretty decent satire, but I don’t need your help to enunciate my point. Nor did I ever say anything about Zionists or Christians. But hey, with good snark…

The great dream of Islam will come true. Muslims dream to see flags that read: “There is no god but Allah” fluttering in the wind over The Statue of Liberty, on the Temple Mount, Haram al-Sharif, Big Ben, Buckingham Palace, Parliament Hill in Ottawa and over Hotair.
Allah willing.

Actually, the vast preponderance of muslims would just be happy to have a house, 3 squares, and a decent school for their kids. Maybe a car. Oddly enough, most of them simply want the “American dream” – peace and prosperity.

But they don’t count, because MB4 says they aren’t real muslims anyways.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 3:33 AM

To “win hearts and minds” you must first presume that the owners of said sources of empathy and intelligence do not utterly and eternally despise you as accursed infidel dogs who are as unclean as feces in the religous calculus of Mohammedan scholars.

Damn. Shoulda told that to all of the relative who came to my wedding. Seem to remember they were too busy drinking, eating, and having a good time to call my dad and little brother infidels, or plot their slaughter, or… Huh. I guess we’ll have to work on that. Less vodka, more choppy choppy.

You cannot win over those who revile your existence, your beliefs, your faith, and your civilization.

You’re actually quite correct in that statement – it’s just that that statement applies to such a small percentage of people.

You can only plactae them temporarily with bribes as they rebuild their military sinews, steal your advanced technology, and then attack you with renewed ferocity, joyously and jihadistically based on the sanctified homicidal dictates of the Koran.

And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit.

Sounds like kill ‘em all to me.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 3:41 AM

Me think someone’s pulling Diana West leg here.
DSchoen on July 3, 2009 at 10:48 PM

On the alphabet soup nomenclature, could be, but I do not see how that changes any of her basic points.

Uhm what point?

When her view or point is based on BOGUS info, then ANY point she derives from Bogus info is basically Bogus.

The Unnamed person who sent her the OBVIOUSLY FAKE E-mail is what she is has formulated her “point on”.

Any conclusion based on “OBVIOUSLY FAKE” “BOGUS info” has no credibility. We can’t give it ANY credence
.

Why would you give it any credence?

She might as well say little green men from outer space kidnapped her therefore we should not be in A-stan.

DSchoen on July 4, 2009 at 4:27 AM

Some of my ancestors were Viking pagans.

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 12:20 AM

Small world, MB4! (Eighth century, myself.)

OldEnglish on July 4, 2009 at 4:28 AM

True, Kosovo’s Muslims are very different from their Middle Eastern coreligionists. They often call themselves “culturally Christian”—because they’re immersed in a Christian-majority region and because they used to be Christians themselves—and one might with even more accuracy call them “culturally European.”

But they are Muslims nevertheless. And while the jihadist movements in the Middle East may appear to be an inevitable product of Islam, in many ways they are simply a religiously themed manifestation of the Arab world’s political backwardness. Perhaps Kosovo’s ethnic Albanians can even—as Mordechai Arbell, chairman of the World Jewish Congress Institute, said at the Tirana conference—“teach the world how people can live in harmony between religions and nations and how they can save each other.”

- Michael J Totten

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 4:34 AM

Why would you give it any credence?

I don’t look at only one tree in a forest and neither does she. If this is the only bone you have to chew on, no matter how much pleasure you seem to be deriving from it, you will starve. I suggest you email her with your concerns.

She might as well say “little green men from outer space kidnapped her therefore we should not be in A-stan.

DSchoen on July 4, 2009 at 4:27 AM

You sound beyond ridiculous with your reductio ad absurdum.

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 4:41 AM

And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly [and guess who all that would be], and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit [we know what submit means].

Sounds like kill ‘em all to me.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 3:41 AM

2:10 Disbelievers are diseased.
2:99 Disbelievers are evil people.
2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom.
2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind.
3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference of believers.
3:73 Don’t believe anyone who is not a Muslim.
3:48 Don’t be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you.
4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.
4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad.
4:101The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends.
5:51 Don’t take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.
5:51 Jews and Christians are losers.
5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine.
5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people.
9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them.

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 4:47 AM

But they don’t count, because MB4 says they aren’t real muslims anyways.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 3:33 AM

The less like the murdering, raping, torturing, lying, pedophile POS filth Mohammad (Islams “Perfect Man”) a Muslim is the better a Muslim he is. Muslim apostates (which “Allah”, may piss be upon him, commands to kill) are the very best “Muslims”.

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 4:53 AM

For many years Western nations have been clueless about these murders calling them domestic disputes and only recently have begun categorizing them correctly as Honor-killings. For instance, British police are reviewing more than 100 recent murders that were likely honor killings (4).

Among Palestinians Honor Killing is not recorded as any crime at all, in fact there are festivities surrounding the event (5).

Although the murder of dishonorable women is mostly ignored in Pakistan, that country alone reports more than a thousand honor-killings a year (6).

And if Pakistan reports a thousand killings a year you can be sure the real number is many, many times that.

In Turkey there seem to be almost no honor-killings. Know why? They pressure the women to commit suicide under threat of torturous death (7)

So please, Amr, spare me the whine that Honor Killings are a blip when considering 1.5 billion Muslims. There are likely 100,000 Muslim women each year who disobey some male member of the family, ask for a divorce, wear western clothing, have consensual sex, get raped or refuse to marry some old Islamic fart, and I have no doubt almost every single one of them are Honor-Killed but the crimes are hidden, under-reported, non-reported, misreported, buried, mis-characterized, misnamed, misfiled, and al taqiyya-ed. The murder of Muslim women is like the Mafia joke where we are told that the victim committed suicide by stabbing himself 18 times and then strangled himself to death and then shot himself in the back of the head.

So please, Amr, spare me the whine that Honor Killings are a blip when considering 1.5 billion Muslims. There are likely 100,000 Muslim women each year who disobey some male member of the family, ask for a divorce, wear western clothing, have consensual sex, get raped or refuse to marry some old Islamic fart, and I have no doubt almost every single one of them are Honor-Killed but the crimes are hidden, under-reported, non-reported, misreported, buried, mis-characterized, misnamed, misfiled, and al taqiyya-ed. The murder of Muslim women is like the Mafia joke where we are told that the victim committed suicide by stabbing himself 18 times and then strangled himself to death and then shot himself in the back of the head.

For photos of victims of honor killings see Atlas Shrugs

HONOR KILLINGS SHOULD BE A CAPITAL CRIME. Period. Because this is war …… and the war is about women, power, ownership, ….. dominance.

You can judge the health of any political system by how they treat the women. Is this what America fought long and hard for? Why hasn’t this received the kind of coverage that Natalee Hollaway, Jesse Davis, Stacey Peterson received?…….. You think it’s just Muslim girls who are at risk? We are all at risk.

These girls, these women are ignored, relegated to the dustbin of irrelevant news stories, so as not to insult Muslim men

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 5:13 AM

Imagine there’s no Islam
It’s hard but you can try
No suicide hijackers coming down at us
Above us only sky
Imagine all those people
Still alive today…

Imagine there’s no Islamic countries
It’s hard but you can try
No Mohammad for them to kill or die for
And no Imams too
Imagine all the Christians, Jews and Infidels
Living life without them…

You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday all dhimmis will join us
And the non-Islamic world will be as one

Imagine no “Honor Killings”
I wonder if you can
No need for Medina or Meca
A brotherhood of non-Islamic woman and man
Imagine all the people
Living without Sharia…

You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday all dhimmis will join us
And the non-Islamic world will be as one

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 5:19 AM

DSchoen,
That was so beautiful I’m wiping tears from my eyes.
flashoverride on July 3

Thank’s

As someone once said:

There is nothing more horrible than the murder of a beautiful theory by a brutal gang of facts.

La Rochefoucauld

DSchoen on July 4, 2009 at 5:25 AM

Islam fosters oppression, islam fosters servitude, Islam fosters cruelty; possibly even more abominable is the fact that Islam fosters idiocy.

Tav on July 4, 2009 at 5:25 AM

There is nothing more horrible than the murder of a beautiful theory by a brutal gang of facts.

La Rochefoucauld

DSchoen on July 4, 2009 at 5:25 AM

There is nothing more horrible than the murder of women by brutal followers of the Koran.

CrusaderRabbit on July 4, 2009 at 5:30 AM

There is nothing more horrible than the murder of a beautiful theory by a brutal gang of facts.

La Rochefoucauld

DSchoen on July 4, 2009 at 5:25 AM

You seem to be inordinately pleased with yourself because you seem to have managed to find one, largely extraneous to the main points, flaw in all of Diana West’s writings, even though you have shown no sign of being able to counter the rest at all. Sure doesn’t take much to ring your self-bell.

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 5:36 AM

I don’t look at only one tree in a forest and neither does she.

Uhm that’s kinda sorta was my point.

If she couldn’t tell this E-mail (tree) was a fraud, how many of these fake E-mail (trees) has she received to and put into that forest.

DSchoen on July 4, 2009 at 5:39 AM

If she couldn’t tell this E-mail (tree) was a fraud, how many of these fake E-mail (trees) has she received to and put into that forest.

DSchoen on July 4, 2009 at 5:39 AM

You are like a dog with a chewy bone. Not much of a bone but you keep getting all your sustenance from it. I didn’t want to deprive you of your “Moment of Triumph” as it doesn’t seem that you get them very often, but a moment was all I could spare for it. I don’t think I have ever seen someone carry on so much with one item to the exclusion of all else. I am all over the forest hitting all manner of areas in all manner of ways and you stay with one tree which you seem to have anointed into your Holy Grail. Why don’t you contact her with your great concerns about one email. She posts on at least two web sites.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0509/west_archives.asp

and

http://www.dianawest.net/

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 5:51 AM

Seriously, it’s not even worth the effort.

MB4, along with a few others, posits that Islam as a religion is the defacto reason that countries fall into disrepair. Let’s forget that no failed empire before 600 AD ever failed due to Islam or Islamists or any other function or derivative of the word.

Let’s also remember that before 1776 there was never any republic on the earth, in the sense of the word we understand today. Even Plato never called for a government in which citizens held the final sway.

I have posited that Kosovo constitutes a predominatly muslim country that revels in freedom, ergo Islam and freedom are not inherently opposed. MB4 posits that Arab countries are “backwards” and in essence that all muslims are Arabs or want to be Arab. He apparently is unaware of the fact that 80% of muslims are not Arab and that most muslims live from Pakistan westward.

This is not to say that there are not crazies – the Chechens and certain Pakistani groups spring to mind – but there are no active jihadi groups in Kyrgyzstan; essentially one attempts to even propagandize in Uzbekistan, almost none operate in Kazakhstan; almost no domestic groups in Malaysia, and even Indonesia is stepping up its anti-Jihadi campaihn.

However, conditions in Somalia are ripe (you know, since we deposed the government and left) for Jihadis in terms of training and logistics. I fear Somailia is going to come around and bite us in our short-sighted asses before too long if not dealt with properly.

I am a muslim. I believe that there is one god, Allah, and that Mohammed is his prophet. This does not mean that I submit to or adhere to Wahhabism or Salafism, which are both a blight on Islam and a stain on the human soul. If King Faisl did not owe it to the Wahhabis for his power, then I feel this world would bein a better place. Alas, it is not my power to make it so.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 7:27 AM

Many Germans were not Nazis.

Many Russians were not Communists. (ditto: Chinese, and others).

Many Italians were not Fascists.

many English were not Puritans.

How did that fact work out for them?

OldEnglish on July 4, 2009 at 8:11 AM

Many Germans were not Nazis.

Many Americans are not Democrats.

Many Russians were not Communists. (ditto: Chinese, and others).

Many Americans are not Democrats.

Many Italians were not Fascists.

Many Americans are not Democrats.

many English were not Puritans.

Many Americans are not Democrats.

How did that fact work out for them?

I don’t know, you tell me. Apparently enough Germans were not Nazis that we sought to subisdize their economic re-empowerment. Enough Russians (et al) were not Communists to pick up where Communism failed. Enough Italians were not fascist enough to prevent us from susidizing their resurgence. Many English to this day are English and not Puritans, so I don’t know what that has to do with anything.

Keep trying. Maybe you can come up with some South Vietnamese who are still…. oh wait, nevermind. Or some Ba’athists who are still…. oh wait, nevermind again. Or some Kurds, buried deep in mass graves. Or….

the plain fact is that you’ve got nothing.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 8:56 AM

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 8:56 AM

I’m afraid you missed the point, entirely.

In all of the cases I quoted the bad guys gained superiority – at least for awhile, and caused massive trauma to the rest.

OldEnglish on July 4, 2009 at 9:10 AM

I’m afraid you missed the point, entirely.

In all of the cases I quoted the bad guys gained superiority – at least for awhile, and caused massive trauma to the rest.

So OldEnglish is here definitively stating, on HotAir, that Democrats are the not the bad guys and do not mean to cause massive trauma. Quite BRAVE! Bravo, sir.

Or maybe you meant something else? Like that Muslims are the bad guys? Let me ask you: is that true even when they’re wearing the uniform of the US military? How far out does that extend? What about maintaining our logistical and communication networks? Perhaps my children are filled with an insidious evil? Perhaps my wife’s entire family burns with a secret rage, passed down genetically to my offspring?

Or maybe you don’t have any idea WTF you’re taking about and failed to read the article cited above. Just because you think all MOOOOOOSLIMS are out to get you doesn’t make it so.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 9:50 AM

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 9:50 AM

I didn’t mention the democrats – you did. They were invited by a majority to do their dirty work.

It would appear that you are one of those people who insist that 100% compliance is necessary for evil to exist in a country/system. All that is required is for a sufficient number to take control – usually through violence, but creeping sharia law will do the job, in time.

As for the wearing of a uniform, that says much about the individual, but nothing about the system. America has a disaster for a president, at this time, yet there will still be individuals who will wish to serve their country.

The evil that is Islam is not caused by individuals who do not commit violence, but by those who do – and they are the ones who would take over if given the chance – as per my original post.

OldEnglish on July 4, 2009 at 10:04 AM

It would appear that you are one of those people who insist that 100% compliance is necessary for evil to exist in a country/system. All that is required is for a sufficient number to take control – usually through violence, but creeping sharia law will do the job, in time.

No, but I am also not one who cries out in fear at shadows. I know that our system of government is wide and flexible enough to handle all sorts of differences. This is a testament to the wisdom of out Founding Fathers. I also know that just because a man does not agree with me, or worship like me, does not neccesarily indicate that he is “evil”. Oddly enough I also decry the rise of Salafism and the spread of Wahhabism – the difference is that I don’t blanket that on a billion people, most of whom live in second or third world status. I know enough to know that I don’t know enoguh about their mindset, and I don’t jump to the conlusion that they are evil.

As for the wearing of a uniform, that says much about the individual, but nothing about the system. America has a disaster for a president, at this time, yet there will still be individuals who will wish to serve their country.

And yet, so long as a new constitutional convention does not take place, nor a new amendment is passed, the basis of the country will remain intact. Our system is pretty flexible like that.

The evil that is Islam is not caused by individuals who do not commit violence, but by those who do – and they are the ones who would take over if given the chance – as per my original post.

Wow. So you agree with that DHS memo on the basis of smearing all veterans because McVeigh blew up a building? Or that all anti-abortionists are dangerous killers because of the one recent whack job? That’s what you’re saying here – that the ideology is not defined by the vast majority of those the participate in it, but it is defined by the few that take it to the extreme.

Well done, sir.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 10:42 AM

Let’s hope the Taliban has not just run for their hideouts. I’m sure tho the Marines know that MO and are ready for them.

For a good movie on the opium/loan sharking business in Afghanistan see Traffik, the Brit mini-series adapted for Traffic.

PattyJ on July 4, 2009 at 11:22 AM

That’s what you’re saying here – that the ideology is not defined by the vast majority of those the participate in it, but it is defined by the few that take it to the extreme.

Well done, sir.

flashoverride on July 4, 2009 at 10:42 AM

In a nutshell, yes. That’s the way it has always been with regard to tyranny. The whole is classified by the actions of that portion which defines the whole. if the extremists were impotent, then they would not be the defining factor – but they are not impotent.

The DHS does not speak for me, and I do not equate a single event as defining anything. However, a pattern does. There is a pattern in that there is a group of people who would quite happily kill me, just because I exist and, as far as i am aware, there is only the one group.

OldEnglish on July 4, 2009 at 12:59 PM

MB4

Let me guess, at one time you were a member of IVAW?

Cause that’s what you sound like.

Remember Jessie MacBeth?

“Jesse MacBeth: An Iraq Veteran Speaks Out.”

“They would actually feel the hot muzzle of my rifle on their forehead,”

“The Iraqis would stand in a crowd and shoot at us. We had to kill civilians to get to them because we were ordered to shoot anything that came at us. I keep having nightmares about it.”

Macbeth’s uniform

“Stars and Stripes as says “There are… numerous wear and appearance issues with the soldier’s uniform – a mix of foreign uniforms with the sleeves rolled up like a Marine and a badly floppy tan beret worn like a pastry chef,”

Stars and Stripes also reported that Macbeth wore his beret with the insignia over the wrong eye and the beret is pulled to the wrong side of his head; all US Army berets are worn with the insignia over the left eye, with the extra material pulled to the right side of the head, and not the left as shown in his picture.

His undershirt is black; US Army wears brown undershirts under their BDUs.

His mustache is out of regulation by extending past the corner of the mouth”

Forgot ta mention he’s UA stupid.

Macbeth joined IVAW in January 2006 was kicked out, only after being exposedas a fraud on May 27, 2006 nearly ½ years. NO ONE at IVAW suspected Macbeth was a fraud.

Within 30 sec. Of his “video” thousands of ACTUAL veterans From ALL branches of the US military, nailed this guy as a fraud.

In your analogy, “A Tree in a forest of Trees”, Macbeth was a “Tree” his fellow members of IVAW were the forest of Trees.

IVAW did not, could not, spot Macbeth as a fraud.

What does that tell us about this IVAW forest (your analogy)?

You posted “cut and past” E-mail from Diana West that was an obviously a fraud. She didn’t spot it, Why?

You didn’t spot it or were too lazy to check, why?

Regardless of where you stand on politics/war, when “YOU” use Bogus, fake, phony “stories” it can ONLY hurt YOUR CAUSE.

MB4, you would have more success if you develop and use YOUR OWN info and do YOUR own research, as opposed to “just cut and past” from someone who knows less than most.

When you continue to defend your BOGUS posting by saying in effect “ okay ya that’s not true, but what about the rest of it”

You make your self as credible as IVAW.

DSchoen on July 4, 2009 at 4:42 PM

LOL!!! If I wanted to try to “pre-empt honest debate” then, rather than referencing very knowledgeable people on the matter, I would just start calling people idiots.
MB4 on July 3

“referencing very knowledgeable people on the matter

This is some reality disconnect ya got her MB4.

knowledgeable people on the matter” don’t publish/Post obvious bogus “stories”.

DSchoen on July 4, 2009 at 5:01 PM

“knowledgeable people on the matter” don’t publish/Post obvious bogus “stories”.

DSchoen on July 4, 2009 at 5:01 PM

“I recently read a military e-mail from Afghanistan that marveled over a similar scene: “As far as BDA (battle damage assessment) goes, check this one out. 2 GBU 36’s (bomblets) dropped the other day on estimated 6 guys!!!! That is half a million dollars on 6 guys!!!!” The e-mailer guessed that all the sniper ammunition the jihadists have used in the whole war hasn’t cost close to that”

Amazing! After all this time you are still chewing on that one little GBU 36’s bone! The vast majority of people don’t even know what a GBU 36′s is, or much give a frack, and somehow you see this as your Holy Grail and another big Macbeth story.

You are doing all this obsessing about something that was only a very small incidental part of her article and not at all central to it and in your mind it has somehow destroyed her whole case. At this point I can now only “assume” that you are fixating on this one item in an attempt to “smear” all of her. You don’t even attempt to address the vast majority of what she has said. Why is that? If one were to take all the costs that the U.S. is incurring in Afghanistan and divide that by the number of actual AlQ (even throw in actual Taliban) being killed I am confident that one would come up with an exceedingly high cost per killed. I have no idea what a GBU 36 or 136 or 666 costs. For all I know that may have been the accounting cost in the email, including all manner of support and logistics and personnel, call it the end cost. What none obsessing person even cares as it was just one little item.

Again, if this minuscule part of what Diana West has said on this whole matter is so very important to you why don’t you just contact her with your concerns? Who knows, if you are tactful, she might thank you. As for myself, this one little twig in an ocean is just not something I would care to make the center of my entire universe. I have wasted too much time on it already. You think it is the be-all-and-end-all. I do not think it is any more than what it is, one small item in an ocean which has received too much fixation already, which actually is rather like too much blood and treasure for U.S. Islamic “Nation Building” in Afghanistan.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0509/west_archives.asp

or

http://www.dianawest.net/

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 5:52 PM

Many Germans were not Nazis.

Many Russians were not Communists. (ditto: Chinese, and others).

Many Italians were not Fascists.

many English were not Puritans.

How did that fact work out for them?

OldEnglish on July 4, 2009 at 8:11 AM

In a nutshell, yes. That’s the way it has always been with regard to tyranny. The whole is classified by the actions of that portion which defines the whole. if the extremists were impotent, then they would not be the defining factor – but they are not impotent.

The DHS does not speak for me, and I do not equate a single event as defining anything. However, a pattern does. There is a pattern in that there is a group of people who would quite happily kill me, just because I exist and, as far as i am aware, there is only the one group.

OldEnglish on July 4, 2009 at 12:59 PM

What you have said reminds me of the Unicorn story. What you have said is a pretty good summation of it.

In medieval times, people created fairy tales and magical creatures to make sense of their world. One of the most endearing is the unicorn, a horse with a single horn that symbolized purity and wholesomeness. In our modern times, people in Europe and the United States consider themselves more sophisticated and rational than people from the Middle Ages, but we still create myths, albeit more subtle ones.

Daily we hear reports of violent acts committed by Islamic terrorists on every inhabited continent. We try to wish it away with the myth of the ‘Moderate Muslim’, telling ourselves the Islamic agenda has been’ hijacked’ by a ‘tiny minority of extremists’ and that soon the huge, silent, moderate majority of Muslims will take charge and change things. However, post 9/11 very few Muslims have condemned terrorist actions. We are still waiting for moderates to stand and deliver, identifying and removing extremist thugs from their mosques and their communities. Waiting for this self-correction is our modern version of searching for unicorns.

Moderate Muslims will not be able to wrest control of the agenda for several reasons. First of all, Mohammad, the Messenger of Allah’s eternal word, was not moderate. No moderate can legitimately tell another Muslim to stop doing the extremist things Mohammad himself did. Also, the Qur’an condones violence and coercion to further the Islamic agenda. People whom we call moderates are labeled hypocrites by Allah Himself in the Qur’an. Moderates will always lose the argument because, as ex-Muslim author Ibn Warraq says, “There may be moderates in Islam but Islam itself is not moderate.”

Islamic expert Daniel Pipes and others estimate ten percent of the Islamic world to be militant. In 1933 when the Nazi party took control of Germany it had 2 million members, comprising only three percent of Germany’s sixty-six million citizens. A tiny minority of extremists can control a vast number of moderates, making them irrelevant.

Placing hope in ‘The Moderate Muslim’ is like searching for unicorns in the forest.
- JihadWatch (A_Plague_on_Both_Houses)

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 6:05 PM

interesting that the press is covering the war since it is now a democratic offensive. Perhaps they could get the enemies of America out of the congress while they are at it.

workingforpigs on July 4, 2009 at 8:19 PM

MB4 on July 4, 2009 at 6:05 PM

Hear! hear!

OldEnglish on July 4, 2009 at 9:09 PM

Again, if this minuscule part of what Diana West has said on this whole matter is so very important to you why don’t you just contact her with your concerns? Who knows,

Diana West didn’t post this bogus e-mail here on HA, you did.

That is half a million dollars on 6 guys!!!!” The e-mailer guessed that all the sniper ammunition the jihadists have used in the whole war hasn’t cost close to that”

If one were to take all the costs that the U.S. is incurring in Afghanistan and divide that by the number of actual AlQ (even throw in actual Taliban) being killed I am confident that one would come up with an exceedingly high cost per killed.

True. So why use a bogus fake E-mail to point out the obvious.

Are all her readers really that stupid?

“The e-mailer guessed that all the sniper ammunition the jihadists have used in the whole war hasn’t cost close to that.

“The United States is getting a lot of bang for a lot of buck but not much else.”

And she makes this conclusion based on a bogus E-mail? That’s kinda stupid ya think?

Yada Yada Bla bla

“Anybody remember Sisyphus?”

No I don’t, but I would assume, like most Greek mythology, the story has alternative endings based on whatever lesson is trying to be taught.

Remember Pygmalion? Pygmalion sculpted the most beautiful woman the world had ever seen. Pygmalion prayed to the god’s that he wanted spend eternity with this most beautiful woman.

Depending on the lesson being taught the god’s either turned Pygmalion statue into a flesh and blood woman, or the god’s were ticked off at Pygmalion and turn him into a stone statue.

AKA self-fulfilling prophesy, be careful what ya ask for cuz ya just might get it.

So basically her “points” are based on a bogus E-Mail and Greek mythology, which often has alternative endings based on whatever lesson is trying to be taught.

And this is what you consider “intelligent”?

Sorry I’m not impressed.

DSchoen on July 4, 2009 at 11:52 PM

They’re Marines. Would you resist?

macummings on July 5, 2009 at 12:49 PM