Coups, interference, and the shifting standards of Obama; Update: Coup or ‘military impeachment’?

posted at 11:28 am on June 29, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

It’s difficult to make sense out of the foreign policy coming out of the White House under Barack Obama.  On the one hand, Obama insisted that he could not interfere with the internal politics of the “sovereign government of Iran,” refusing for days to even condemn Iran for its flagrantly violent repression of dissent.  When Honduras’ military staged a coup, though, Obama apparently had no such reticence in involving the US on behalf of deposed President Manuel Zelaya — a close ally of Hugo Chavez:

In an unusual concurrence of views, the Obama administration and Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said they still recognized Mr. Zelaya as Honduras’ president. The State Department called the events an “attempted coup” and urged Mr. Zelaya’s “return and restoration of democratic order.”

U.S. officials said they were engaged in multinational efforts to resolve the crisis, through the Organization of American States and European allies. At the same time, Washington wants a resolution “free from external influence and interference,” a senior official told reporters during a conference call organized by the State Department.

The official, who spoke on the condition that he not be named, said the U.S. Embassy in Honduras was “consistently and almost constantly engaged in the last several weeks working with partners” and that U.S. officials were “in contact with all Honduran institutions, including the military.” However, the military stopped taking the embassy’s calls since the coup attempt, the official said.

The Wall Street Journal also reports Obama’s eagerness to “interfere”:

The Obama administration and members of the Organization of American States had worked for weeks to try to avert any moves to overthrow President Zelaya, said senior U.S. officials. Washington’s ambassador to Honduras, Hugo Llorens, sought to facilitate a dialogue between the president’s office, the Honduran parliament and the military.

The efforts accelerated over the weekend, as Washington grew increasingly alarmed. “The players decided, in the end, not to listen to our message,” said one U.S. official involved in the diplomacy. On Sunday, the U.S. embassy here tried repeatedly to contact the Honduran military directly, but was rebuffed. Washington called the removal of President Zelaya a coup and said it wouldn’t recognize any other leader.

The U.S. stand was unpopular with Honduran deputies. One congressman, Toribio Aguilera, got prolonged applause from his colleagues when he urged the U.S. ambassador to reconsider. Mr. Aguilera said the U.S. didn’t understand the danger that Mr. Zelaya and his friendships with Mr. Chavez and Cuba’s Fidel Castro posed.

Zelaya was violating his country’s constitution with his referendum that would have, Chavez-style, repealed term limits on the presidency.  The Honduras Supreme Court ruled the referendum illegal, and the military refused to distribute the ballots.  Instead of backing down, Zelaya fired the head of the military, which precipitated the ouster.

Clearly, democracies cannot abide armed overthrow of elected governments, but that presumes that the government acts within the rule of law.  Zelaya had no intention of doing so, and his flagrant violations and attempt to accrue personal power made that crystal clear. Zelaya had begun seizing dictatorial powers, and the military responded by arresting him.  The military then handed power back to the legislature rather than keeping it for themselves, which makes this less of a coup and more of a military impeachment.

Why did Obama decide to intervene on behalf of a “president” obviously abusing his power and to prevent the military from removing him once he started acting like a dictator?  He didn’t put nearly that much effort into assisting Iranians who have gone into the streets and died to protest the mullahcracy that oppresses them.  Rick Moran thinks that’s a pretty good question as well:

Further, the military was acting under the orders of the Honduran Supreme Court although they apparently exceeded their authority by whisking him away to Venezuela. And finally, it was Zelaya’s actions in violating the constitution, ignoring a ruling by the Supreme Court that any referendum be put on would be illegal, and the universal belief in Congress, the military, and much of the populace that eventually, he would little more than a stand in for Chavez if he was allowed to carry out his illegal referendum that sealed Zelaya’s fate.

And yet our president, acting contrary to American interests, chose the route of least resistance and condemned what many Hondurans believe was a restoration of constitutional order. The president will find himself in familiar territory with this condemnation – Castro, Ortega, and other Latin American leftist thugs also condemned the coup. Maybe someone could look it up but when was the last time we were on the same side with Cuba on any international issue?

Way to go Barry. Like, we should listen to the Castros when they complain about democratic procedure not being followed? …

In fact, after swearing off “interferring” in Iran where demonstrators were getting shot, beaten, and axed to death, our clueless Chief Hypocrite worked frantically behind the scenes to save Honduran President Zelaya’s job, thus [interfering] on the wrong side while making himself out a liar on Iran.

We’re getting a close look at Obama’s priorities, and they’re hideously out of step with democracy and the rule of law.

Update: The controversy now is whether this is a coup or a lawful action on behalf of the Honduras legislature and courts.  Fausta has gone on record saying it’s not a coup, as the military responded to a request from the legislature and courts to remove Zelaya.  I tend to agree with Larisa Alexandrovna on this point, though:

As noted here (in Spanish), the Honduran Congress cited repeated violations of the Honduran Constitution by President Manuel Zelaya and voted for his removal. That said, as I noted earlier, he is both a bad guy and a good guy. This is a complex political environment in a very unstable part of the world.

The right sees this as a simple restoration of democracy. Yet the use of military personnel to detain, arrest, and transport a sitting president to another country against his will is not part of any democratic process that I am aware of. They do have courts in Honduras and a legal system. This is a coup, despite the passions of the right-wing. They also have law enforcement. Anytime the military becomes involved, it is not as simple as impeachment by Congressional edict through military force. Shorter=coup.

Had the military arrested and detained Zelaya in advance of an impeachment action and/or criminal prosecution, then I could go with the not-a-coup argument.  Dumping him outside of the country is not exactly a due-process removal — and I think that falls into the yes-it’s-a-coup territory.  Perhaps necessary, perhaps very supportable, but it’s obviously an extralegal removal, which is the very definition of a coup.


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Smart Power – Foreign Policy according to Barney the Dinosaur (I love you…you love me…)

kingsjester on June 29, 2009 at 12:12 PM

Obama is true to form. Back in 2006, as a U.S. Senator, he openly supported Odinga, a socialist who wanted to impose Islamic Sharia law in Kenya, over the candidate who won the election, and lobbied for a “compromise” to make Odinga Prime Minister.

Obama loves dictators, and hates democrats.

Steve Z on June 29, 2009 at 12:12 PM

politics trumps race.

Vashta.Nerada on June 29, 2009 at 12:11 PM

These days, politics = race. But I suppose it had to happen, if we are ever to get past it.

JiangxiDad on June 29, 2009 at 12:12 PM

I am expecting to see Obama soon wear a sash in support of Manuel Zelaya and other central American and South MAerican thugs.

WashJeff on June 29, 2009 at 12:13 PM

What is the cause of the violence south of our border?
What is the largest untapped, unregulated, untaxed, source of the underground economy? I think Obama & Zataya have a far more sinister agenda than we can imagine.

fourdeucer on June 29, 2009 at 12:13 PM

What the right needs to do, if they dont win the Presidency, is hold there primaries early, like have them done by now. Select the head of their party to campaign for 4 years.

Every time something like this happens, the head of our party takes a stand, promotes our side and what we would of said and done if they were in charge.

Ricci, come out and say what they would of said if they were the sitting President, who they would put up for SCOTUS. Any time a disaster happen, proclaim what they would do, to call on the President to do the same thing.

So basically just proclaim what they would of done and call for the sitting administration to do the same thing. After 3 years, they will have a legion of things to bring to the American people the differences and it will allow the voters s real choice, stick with the last 4 years, or go with what could of been, and what will be.

WoosterOh on June 29, 2009 at 12:13 PM

It’s difficult to make sense out of the foreign policy coming out of the White House under Barack Obama.

No it’s not and that’s the most disturbing thing about it. What worries me more though is just what is going on between Obama and Chavez that would cause Obama to give US support to a Chavez puppet who was in clear violation of his country’s constitution and supreme court ruling.

I think the devil is definitely in the details on this one.

Texas Gal on June 29, 2009 at 12:15 PM

WoosterOh on June 29, 2009 at 12:13 PM

Hmmmm… Shadow Government? or…

Government in Exile?

Romeo13 on June 29, 2009 at 12:15 PM

Ogabe’s moral compass is always pointing left.

Bishop on June 29, 2009 at 12:16 PM

And you all thought plugs was stupid.

Thunderstorm129 on June 29, 2009 at 12:03 PM

I think idiot-savant is the correct term. I understand he was able to say Supercalafragelisticexpialadocious backwards at an impossibly early age.

JiangxiDad on June 29, 2009 at 12:17 PM

I’ll have to wait to hear from Nancy Pelosi after the CIA briefs her………otherwise there is no authoritive body of information here.

Rovin on June 29, 2009 at 12:17 PM

Agree with others upthread. It is NOT A COUP. It is the opposite of a coup, in fact.

Missy on June 29, 2009 at 12:19 PM

Disgusting performance by Obama, Clinton, our worthless State Department career diplomatic corps. . . . Where’s Biden’s two cents? Didn’t he get the memo? Obama plays Johnny-come-lately on Iran but plays Rambo on Honduras.

Bob in VA on June 29, 2009 at 12:20 PM

Meanwhile, out in Russia…the largest Russian military “exercises” since the invasion of Georgia are underway…

Guess Putin wants to “not waste a crisis” perhaps?

As for Honduras…since when is protecting and defending the Constitution a coup?

coldwarrior on June 29, 2009 at 12:22 PM

What is the cause of the violence south of our border?
What is the largest untapped, unregulated, untaxed, source of the underground economy? I think Obama & Zataya have a far more sinister agenda than we can imagine.

fourdeucer on June 29, 2009 at 12:13 PM

The left has wanted to legalize drugs for decades. Tap into those funds that oppresse the masses. The drug culture is perhaps the most hideous of all social problems The left would rather rollover and let it ran rampant as long as they can tax it. Is that what America really wants? That Genie would be impossible to put back into the bottle. Ask Europe how handing out free heroin has gone. That would be all we need – a larger stoner nation.
How about we set-up brothels in our schools and hand out free pot as rewards for our kids…..

izoneguy on June 29, 2009 at 12:24 PM

Washington called the removal of President Zelaya a coup and said it wouldn’t recognize any other leader.

At least they are consistent in the cases of both Iran and Honduras, and for nearly identical reasons.

The acorn doesn’t fall far from the tree.

unclesmrgol on June 29, 2009 at 12:25 PM

Meanwhile, out in Russia…the largest Russian military “exercises” since the invasion of Georgia are underway…

Russians don’t feel secure in Caucasus. Also, how can they leave Black sea in Ukrainian hands? Sooner or later they have to make their move. When?

JiangxiDad on June 29, 2009 at 12:25 PM

How about we set-up brothels in our schools and hand out free pot as rewards for our kids…..

izoneguy on June 29, 2009 at 12:24 PM

Kewl! Totally rad, Dude! /s

coldwarrior on June 29, 2009 at 12:25 PM

Agree with others upthread. It is NOT A COUP. It is the opposite of a coup, in fact.

Missy on June 29, 2009 at 12:19 PM

This action was necessary because a real Coup was coming…I don’t know what part of this Obama does not understand?? Or does not want to understand…
Or wants to BS Americans so that when he pulls this crap here it won’t be stopped by our military….

How many Generals in our Armed forces are puckering up right now???

izoneguy on June 29, 2009 at 12:27 PM

Actually, Obama’s actions are 100% consistent. He intervened in support of a far left despot and didn’t in Iran as neither side in the crooked election was made up of leftists with a goal to establish a peoples republic. Obama had no dog in that fight.

JIMV on June 29, 2009 at 12:27 PM

STOP CALLING IT A F#CKING “COUP”!!!

BuzzCrutcher on June 29, 2009 at 11:43 AM

Amen. It looks like it was, rather, law and order preventing a coup and maintaining a democracy.

no wonder Obama doesn’t like it

29Victor on June 29, 2009 at 12:28 PM

coldwarrior on June 29, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Vlad sees an open field ahead of him,..Barry hasn’t even had a chance to go up against the real pros yet. We need to get used to being humiliated on the world stage.

a capella on June 29, 2009 at 12:28 PM

Hmmmm… Shadow Government? or…

Government in Exile?

Romeo13 on June 29, 2009 at 12:15 PM

In some ways, we are in Exile.

What I think would be good about it, it would give the people of Honduras courage, Iran people, courage, that there are Americans that are on their side. When this administration does its thing, like trying to save the Honduras president from himself, it makes it look like it is America is against the people, no, most of America is for the Honduran people, just the current administration is for leftist dictators. We need to point that out and having a head of our party, a 4 year campaign to tell Americans and the World what they are missing, real leaders not what they see in Washington now.

WoosterOh on June 29, 2009 at 12:29 PM

izoneguy on June 29, 2009 at 12:24 PM

I honestly hope I am wrong, America doesn’t need another vice dumbing us down further.

fourdeucer on June 29, 2009 at 12:30 PM

I have to say Obama isn’t really flip flopping on the issues here as posted. In Iran he’s pushing to make sure the President who wants to destruction of the US to stay in power and in Honduras he’s trying to make sure the friend of the guy who wants to US destroyed stays in power.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Rbastid on June 29, 2009 at 12:32 PM

Carter must be celebrating: Yippeee I am not the worst President evah!

faol on June 29, 2009 at 12:32 PM

Washington called the removal of President Zelaya a coup and said it wouldn’t recognize any other leader.

At least they are consistent in the cases of both Iran and Honduras, and for nearly identical reasons.

The acorn doesn’t fall far from the tree.

unclesmrgol on June 29, 2009 at 12:25 PM

If we had a leader of our party, we could call the next leader of Honduras and tell them we welcome them and will do what we can to work with them. We support what has taken place. They will have a friend in Washington in 3 years, so for now, just ride it out.

WoosterOh on June 29, 2009 at 12:32 PM

So Obama was willing to violate his own stated ethics to help a leftwing populist Presidente become Presidente for life…I get a bad feeling about this for some reason…

18-1 on June 29, 2009 at 12:33 PM

faol on June 29, 2009 at 12:32 PM

LOL

cmsinaz on June 29, 2009 at 12:34 PM

Could it be that Barry relates more readily to LEFTEST ideals rather than democratic ones?

GarandFan on June 29, 2009 at 12:36 PM

No, weenie roast posts yet… I’m disappointed, guys.

Upstater85 on June 29, 2009 at 12:06 PM

Well, Upstater, I guess Zelays is free this weekend to attend the party….

JamesLee on June 29, 2009 at 12:38 PM

Obama: Protecting all things Socialist

Kini on June 29, 2009 at 12:44 PM

WoosterOh on June 29, 2009 at 12:32 PM

I’m torn on this. While I think President Obama’s administration is making the wrong call here, I remember being extremely offended when Pelosi went to Syria because she and members of her party didn’t like how President Bush was dealing with Syria and Assad.

If it’s not alright when they do it, it’s not alright when we do it.

As long as Obama and his administration act within their constitutional authority, I don’t believe we should have people operating outside of the government saying, “Just wait a few years and we’ll have your back.”

Perhaps we can do more to work through Congress/Public Opinion to get the facts out so people will support the Honduran legislature over the power-seizing president. Once public opinion turns, Obama will do what he usually does which will be to do a 180 but claim that he’s been consistent all along.

JadeNYU on June 29, 2009 at 12:48 PM

How many Generals in our Armed forces are puckering up right now???

izoneguy on June 29, 2009 at 12:27 PM

I would love for our military to remove this obamination… all of it… Obama Biden Pelosi Reid Schumer Frank Dodd Boxer Feinstein Rangel Durbin Murtha…this lit is so long…

CCRWM on June 29, 2009 at 12:49 PM

This all makes perfect sense to me. See, by declaring what happened in Honduras unconstitutional and anti-democracy, the zombies will know how to feel and react when Chairman Zero moves to end HIS OWN term limits, should he win in 2012. When our military and SCOTUS rule against him and rise up to force him into exile, the left will automatically take zero’s side. You know, to support democracy and the constitution and stuff.

Good thing us right-wing extremists have the guns.

Spectreman on June 29, 2009 at 12:49 PM

I wonder if we will have an election in 2012…or a “crisis” so intense Barry, like Bloomberg in NY, is the only hope to keep us from the abyss…and in 2016, another crisis…and in 2020…

When it was Bush v. Gore, no tanks were in our streets. I wonder what the next dose of hanging chads will bring?

Harry Schell on June 29, 2009 at 12:50 PM

The president will find himself in familiar territory with this condemnation – Castro, Ortega, and other Latin American leftist thugs also condemned the coup. Maybe someone could look it up but when was the last time we were on the same side with Cuba on any international issue?

Obambi to dictatorial leftist thugs, “Don’t worry boys, I got your back.” Obambi to the people of Iran, “Go suck an egg.”
Expect America’s new “smart” power to align itself much more frequently with Cuba and other despotic regimes.

johnnybgood on June 29, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Barry’s Cairo speech inspired Hondurans to rise up against Zelaya.

Christien on June 29, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Honduras czar in 5…4…3…2…

You know, so we can have our czar talk to their czar. Maybe even Twitter with each other, and complain about how the masses just keep getting in the way wanting free elections and crazy mess like that!

freeus on June 29, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Barry’s Cairo speech inspired Hondurans to rise up against Zelaya.

Christien on June 29, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Think I will steal this.

JiangxiDad on June 29, 2009 at 1:06 PM

freeus on June 29, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Czar for this, czar for that…czars, czars everywhere there are czars…

Let’s get to the point…

Let’s call them for what they really are: Commissars.

No matter how Left you go…it’ll never be right.

coldwarrior on June 29, 2009 at 1:07 PM

It’s seems quite simple, really. Neither Iran, nor North Korea pose a direct threat against him. His own military, on the other hand ….

OldEnglish on June 29, 2009 at 11:43 AM

Prescient.

David2.0 on June 29, 2009 at 1:07 PM

B.O.’s actions in Honduras seem very clear. Chavez has already used a public referendum to set aside the constitution in Venezuela. Morales has done the same in Bolivia. Now Zelaya was preparing to do the same in Honduras. When Obama gets judges on the Supreme Court who will apply international law to the U.S., he will have several precedents to set aside our Constitution and try to make himself President for life. What’s not to understand here?

Ordinary American on June 29, 2009 at 1:09 PM

Why did Obama decide to intervene on behalf of a “president” obviously abusing his power and to prevent the military from removing him once he started acting like a dictator?

Kindred spirits, maybe?

The dictators in Iran want to hold on to power and squash democratic movement. Pres. Obama backs the ruling dictators.

The wannabe dictator in Honduras wants to arbitrarity change democratically constituted laws to enable him to remain in power. Again, Pres. Obama backs the wannabe dictator and spurns democracy.

Here in America, the Administration appears to be more and more determined to undermine and/or destroy the very things that have served this country well for over 230 years, taking power away from the people and investing it in the federal government. Will we soon have an Iranian style “democracy” where our benevolent dictator decides whose names will be allowed to be placed on the ballot so that “we the people” can go through the motions of a “democratic vote?” Or will we have a Honduran style democracy where the ruling class can simply change the laws on a whim to allow them to remain in power? Seems to me it could go either way. Pres. Obama’s overtures to the dictators in both countries, and his actions in the first 6 months in this country, certainly suggest he might be sympathetic to either option. Kindred spirits indeed.

Harrell on June 29, 2009 at 1:10 PM

Ordinary American on June 29, 2009 at 1:09 PM

That’s when the First and Second Amendments to the Constitution kick in…and We, The People, take back our Nation.

coldwarrior on June 29, 2009 at 1:11 PM

Google News search for terms Honduras &
coup – 4,931
supreme court – 2,484
court order – 221
media bias – 1

Just to remind everybody about Barry’s allies in “journalism.”

Loxodonta on June 29, 2009 at 1:16 PM

Yes!! Please!! Someone give the order!! WE the People have had ENOUGH!! WE the People are ready to take back OUR government!! I had this conversation a couple of days ago…seems to stil apply today

Keemo… In all seriousness, what should we(I) be doing to prepare for what may come?

stacy on June 27, 2009 at 8:06 AM

stacy on June 27, 2009 at 8:06 AM

From my perspective only, of coarse…

Without leaders, organizers, managers, we’re left to our own devices. Those with the microphone, those who are in position to lead must come forward. Rush and many others talk to us and do a good job educating us on the topics & issues facing us; however, the time for educating has passed. It’s now time to lead. If these folks refuse to lead, name names, and help to organize, then other leaders must emerge immediately. Congress and the WH are rushing through legislation that will cripple us for generations to come. The revolution must begin now in my opinion.

This is a fight, a street fight. Really hard times are upon us. Fear and uncertainty are the ingredients these politicians are using to bring us in line. They count on us being complacent long enough for them to shut down our lines of communication.

In my home, we have been stocking up on canned food for the past several months. We have protected what money we have left to the best of our abilities. We started reducing our overhead last September when it became obvious that Obama would become our potus. My oldest son just completed his 2nd year of college, and is prepared to come back home and help us financially, as well as take to the streets.

Beyond that Stacy, I’m at a loss. I’ve never seen anything like this before, therefore I have no experience to draw from. I do have faith in the American people, in the American dream.

Keemo on June 27, 2009 at 8:40 AM

Thank you, some of those things I have begun doing, some I need to. I am glad that we live in the deep south. I imagine things may be worst in the north east and the west coast, big cities mostly. I don’t believe that we will make it to the 2010 elections or if we did that they would not be fair with groups like ACORN and the Black Panthers helping. You’re right, I have never seen anything like it before and I often wonder how it will play out. My kids are all in Texas with my ex and I am relieved they will be there over the 4th, because I sense the 4th may be a very telling and enlightening day for this country. I do know, without any doubt, that it IS time for “We the People” to rise up and take our country back, I’m just not sure we will.

stacy on June 27, 2009 at 9:12 AM

stacy on June 27, 2009 at 9:12 AM

Faith comes in many shapes and forms Stacy. I have lost all faith in our government, as corruption, selfishness, ego’s, and lust for power rule the day for these people. However, I remain faithful in the American people, the American dream. Without this faith, I would be without a rudder.

Our government has become sick, very sick. The battle between good and evil will always be worthy of the righteous fight. I must believe that the people will rise up against evil as has been the case throughout history.

Keemo on June 27, 2009 at 9:47 AM

Oh, I have faith in “that that” makes us great!! I believe in this great Republic, I even believe that we can keep it!! It just ain’t gonna be pretty! It seems ,to me, that ALL of government would have to be swept out and replaced. How could you “pick and choose”?

stacy on June 27, 2009 at 10:09 AM

Can nobody “Get in Front of US?”

stacy on June 29, 2009 at 1:49 PM

Expect Obama and the state department to go silent again if/when Chavez and Ortega invade Honduras from Nicaragua to return Zalaya to the presidency. If successful, Zalaya will disband the congress as conspirators to the “golpe” (The voted unanimously to oust Zalaya and install his successor.)

Result: Instant dictatorship in Honduras. Good job Obama.

AverageJoe on June 29, 2009 at 1:51 PM

It has already been said by others, but just to drive the point home:

Democracy is the most vile form of government… democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention: have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property: and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.

– James Madison

Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide.

– John Adams

Can certain people stop misusing the word “Democracy”. Democracies are idiotic. Republics are what we are about. Zelaya tried to turn a Republic into a Democracy.

I wish people would understand the major difference between Democrats (who love Democracies) and Republicans (who love Republics). The army did not commit any sort of coup, but followed the law of the Republic. Zelaya was attempting a coup. Can we get this straight? Please.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 1:54 PM

Sure hope you have a tight grip on my confidential email HA!

Am I joking? I’ll let y’all decide.

stacy on June 29, 2009 at 1:54 PM

Obama loves dictators, and hates democrats.

Steve Z on June 29, 2009 at 12:12 PM

Exactly! And isn’t that the true cause of hatred for America? Not that we promote democracy but that we have been the friends of dictators who abuse their people.

Hypocritical foreign policy never makes friends in the long run. We should seldom be practicing this old style American foreign policy. This is not hope.

Of course it is hope for dictators everywhere I guess.

petunia on June 29, 2009 at 2:03 PM

Bravo for the Honduran military and Supreme Court which acted within the confines of the Constitution. Once again Barry is taking the sides of leftwing dictators and against the real interests of the US government. It took at least three years for Carter to go down in flames. Barry is Carter on steroids.
If it weren’t for manipulated poll numbers and/or white guilt (affirmative action complex) Barry’s numbers would be in the toilet now.

eaglewingz08 on June 29, 2009 at 2:09 PM

In case you mean me…let me be clear…I understand the difference, thats why I would think that ALL of government would have to go, of course if the military had a better idea, that’d be great! I’m sure that most of us here could supply our “favorite link”, altho it MAY take some time deciding which one to start with, especially if ALL of gov had to go… WOW this is gonna take some time and research.
Wait! Oh yeah, its been done –

Without leaders, organizers, managers, we’re left to our own devices. Those with the microphone, those who are in position to lead must come forward. Rush and many others talk to us and do a good job educating us on the topics & issues facing us; however, the time for educating has passed. It’s now time to lead

stacy on June 29, 2009 at 2:12 PM

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 1:54 PM

I hear you.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:14 PM

or follow, or get the hell outta the way!

In case anyone wonders..I am not a radical, or crazy, or a right wing extremist.

What I am is an American woman, mom, citizen, voter, ect. and I AM MAD AS HELL!!

stacy on June 29, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Can certain people stop misusing the word “Democracy”.

Democracies are idiotic. Republics are what we are about. Zelaya tried to turn a Republic into a Democracy.

I wish people would understand the major difference between Democrats (who love Democracies) and Republicans (who love Republics). The army did not commit any sort of coup, but followed the law of the Republic. Zelaya was attempting a coup. Can we get this straight? Please.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 1:54 PM

Someone gets it. I’m getting it too.

Chaz706 on June 29, 2009 at 2:20 PM

Let me be the first to say it:

OBAMA IS A RADICAL

/sarc

therightscoop on June 29, 2009 at 2:22 PM

/rant off

stacy on June 29, 2009 at 2:22 PM

Can certain people stop misusing the word “Democracy”. Democracies are idiotic. Republics are what we are about. Zelaya tried to turn a Republic into a Democracy.
progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 1:54 PM

Technically, democratic election without a constitutional framework is called a “plebiscite.” And that’s how Caesar destroyed the Roman Republic.

It’s idiotic to assume that dictators are always unpopular — at first, anyway. No one stands out from the crowd like a madman. And narcissism – the most dangerous form of sociopathy – is often accompanied by an excess of personal charisma.

But even that isn’t really a necessity. All you really need to get a mob riled up is the simple act of throwing away the rulebook for its own sake.

logis on June 29, 2009 at 2:24 PM

Zelaya had begun seizing dictatorial powers, and the military responded by arresting him.

Big mistake. They should have shot him.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 2:32 PM

Big mistake. They should have shot him.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 2:32 PM

Maybe in the long view. But, arresting him was legal — shooting him would not have been.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:34 PM

Obama-nation to Honduras courts and military: HOW DARE YOU STAND UP FOR RULE OF LAW!

darktood on June 29, 2009 at 2:34 PM

Why did Obama decide to intervene on behalf of a “president” obviously abusing his power and to prevent the military from removing him once he started acting like a dictator?

lol. You have got to be kidding me. Maybe he had a premonition. Then, on the other hand, Barackito Obamalimi probably didn’t even need to have one. Let’s just say he had a sense of profound foreboding.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 2:37 PM

logis on June 29, 2009 at 2:24 PM

Exactly. The will of the People needs to be limited within a constitutional framework the same way that all other powers of government are. Without that, chaos or dictatorship eventually ensues.

I am just amazed that so many conservatives (not commenters, here, but we know who I’m talking about) have forgotten this and love to scream about Democracy.

And I still don’t get people who are calling this a coup in Honduras, when it is the exact opposite.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 2:37 PM

Maybe in the long view. But, arresting him was legal — shooting him would not have been.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:34 PM

Accidents happen all the time.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 2:38 PM

Exactly. The will of the People needs to be limited within a constitutional framework the same way that all other powers of government are. Without that, chaos or dictatorship eventually ensues.

I am just amazed that so many conservatives (not commenters, here, but we know who I’m talking about) have forgotten this and love to scream about Democracy.

And I still don’t get people who are calling this a coup in Honduras, when it is the exact opposite.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 2:37 PM

The whole media treatment of this thing has me weirded out. Even FoxNews is calling it a coup.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:45 PM

From Fox:

U.S. diplomats have been working to ensure the safety of deposed Honduran President Manuel Zelaya and his family as they press for restoration of constitutional law and his presidency. Clinton said “it’s important that we stand for the rule of law.”

This is just ridiculous.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:46 PM

Clinton said “it’s important that we stand for the rule of law.”

This is just ridiculous.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:46 PM

I guess it all depends on what the meaning of rule-of-law is and what the meaning of sex is and what the meaning of is, is.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 2:52 PM

Here’s one war zone that Barry has been consistent on:

CHICAGO. Hasn’t done nothing and still does nothing.

bloggless on June 29, 2009 at 2:54 PM

I guess it all depends on what the meaning of rule-of-law is and what the meaning of sex is and what the meaning of is, is.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 2:52 PM

Then you have this:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529416,00.html?test=latestnews

People crying “Democratic Principles” as if they somehow trumped the rule of law and constitutional government.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:55 PM

Chavez said on state television if his ambassador to Venezuela was killed, or if troops entered the Venezuelan Embassy, “that military junta would be entering a de facto state of war. We would have to act militarily … I have put the armed forces of Venezuela on alert.”

I smell a trumped up accusation coming…

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:58 PM

If ever there was an American President who’s philosophy of government was totally at war with that of America’s Founding Fathers it is Barackito Obamalini. They would surly look at him pretty much the same way they looked at King George the Third.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 2:58 PM

The whole media treatment of this thing has me weirded out. Even FoxNews is calling it a coup.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:45 PM

Even Ed is, here. It is all very odd and very, very disconcerting.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM

From Fox:

U.S. diplomats have been working to ensure the safety of deposed Honduran President Manuel Zelaya and his family as they press for restoration of constitutional law and his presidency. Clinton said “it’s important that we stand for the rule of law.”

This is just ridiculous.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:46 PM

Holy sh!t. That is awful. I’m hoping that Rush and Levin and Coulter and Hannity can set people straight on this. This is pure insanity. Even Orwell would be offended by this!

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 3:02 PM

Chavez said on state television if his ambassador to Venezuela was killed, or if troops entered the Venezuelan Embassy, “that military junta would be entering a de facto state of war. We would have to act militarily … I have put the armed forces of Venezuela on alert.”

I smell a trumped up accusation coming…

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:58 PM

Think Hitler and some kind of mix-and-match between Kristallnacht and Czechoslovakia.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 3:02 PM

If ever there was an American President who’s philosophy of government was totally at war with that of America’s Founding Fathers it is Barackito Obamalini.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 2:58 PM

Perfectly put, MB.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 3:04 PM

Think Hitler and some kind of mix-and-match between Kristallnacht and Czechoslovakia.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 3:02 PM

I was actually thinking more of Poland.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 3:04 PM

The whole media treatment of this thing has me weirded out. Even FoxNews is calling it a coup.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 2:45 PM

Even Ed is, here. It is all very odd and very, very disconcerting.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM

It is all very similar to blaming the woman for assault because she resisted her would be rapist.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 3:06 PM

Holy sh!t. That is awful. I’m hoping that Rush and Levin and Coulter and Hannity can set people straight on this. This is pure insanity. Even Orwell would be offended by this!

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 3:02 PM

Heh. I’m pretty sure Orwell only wrote about what offended him. On the other hand, he was a leftist; he just thought the totalitarians were doing socialism wrong.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 3:07 PM

It is all very similar to blaming the woman for assault because she resisted her would be rapist.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 3:06 PM

There it is.

Count to 10 on June 29, 2009 at 3:07 PM

The truth is, Obama is scared to death of a military coup to prevent trashing of the Constitution.

Speakup on June 29, 2009 at 3:09 PM

Perfectly put, MB.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 3:04 PM

I had my Barry Goldwater “hat” on.

MB4 on June 29, 2009 at 3:10 PM

Is ANYONE in Latin America with Honduras on this one?

ThePrez on June 29, 2009 at 3:49 PM

Hopeandchange Obama sure does like him some dictators, doesn’t he?

Disturbing would be a gross understatement.

hillbillyjim on June 29, 2009 at 3:51 PM

Exactly. The will of the People needs to be limited within a constitutional framework the same way that all other powers of government are. Without that, chaos or dictatorship eventually ensues.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 2:37 PM

That’s why we and other nations drew up the framework of a Constitution.

The people of Honduras are getting a first hand first case civic lesson in constitutional law… and they’re acing the class fortunately…

…well… most of them anyway.

Chaz706 on June 29, 2009 at 5:12 PM

And I still don’t get people who are calling this a coup in Honduras, when it is the exact opposite.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 2:37 PM

The Honduran government foiled an attempted coup.

Honduras has provided the world with a fine example of the preservation of freedom and liberty utilizing the checks and balances provided within the constitution of a limited government—and in a troubled region, no less.

The worlds reaction clearly demonstrates that they have a lot to learn from Honduras, not the other way around.

If I were president I would be vociferously congratulating Honduras and taking steps to strengthen our alliance.

FloatingRock on June 29, 2009 at 5:20 PM

And I still don’t get people who are calling this a coup in Honduras, when it is the exact opposite.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 2:37 PM

The Honduran government foiled an attempted coup.

Honduras has provided the world with a fine example of the preservation of freedom and liberty utilizing the checks and balances provided within the constitution of a limited government—and in a troubled region, no less.

The worlds reaction clearly demonstrates that they have a lot to learn from Honduras, not the other way around.

If I were president I would be vociferously congratulating Honduras and taking steps to strengthen our alliance.

FloatingRock on June 29, 2009 at 5:21 PM

Is ANYONE in Latin America with Honduras on this one?

ThePrez on June 29, 2009 at 3:49 PM

Would that be a good thing? There’s the left and then the far left…

Upstater85 on June 29, 2009 at 5:21 PM

And I still don’t get people who are calling this a coup in Honduras, when it is the exact opposite.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 2:37 PM

The Honduran government foiled an attempted coup.

Honduras has provided the world with a fine example of the preservation of freedom and liberty utilizing the checks and balances provided within the constitution of a limited government—and in a troubled region, no less.

The worlds reaction clearly demonstrates that they have a lot to learn from Honduras, not the other way around.

If I were president I would be vociferously congratulating Honduras and taking steps to strengthen our alliance.

FloatingRock on June 29, 2009 at 5:22 PM

Is ANYONE in Latin America with Honduras on this one?

ThePrez on June 29, 2009 at 3:49 PM

Would that be a good thing?

Upstater85 on June 29, 2009 at 5:23 PM

Chaz706 on June 29, 2009 at 5:12 PM

Honduras is standing up for the rule of law – thank G-d!

Ed and Allah, PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THIS:

Obama says Honduran ouster was ‘not legal’

WASHINGTON (AP) – President Barack Obama says the weekend ouster of Honduran leader Manuel Zelaya was a “not legal” coup and that he remains the country’s president.
Obama spoke to reporters in the Oval Office on Monday after meetings with Colombian President Alvaro Uribe. Obama said he wanted to be very clear that President Zelaya is the democratically elected president.

Obama pledged the U.S. to “stand on the side of democracy” and to work with other nations and international entities to resolve the matter peacefully.

Please try and stop abusing the term, “Democracy” as that is what allows treasonous morons, like The Precedent, to make idiotic comments such as this. You are enabling the Traitor-in-Chief by using loose, and incorrect, language in describing governing structures – whether it is inadvertent on your part, or not.

The US is not about Democracy and never has been. Our federal government was only built with democratic processes being used to fill 1/2 of 1/3 of it (the House of Representatives).

Please try and get this straight. I’m sure your readers would appreciate it.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 5:23 PM

And I still don’t get people who are calling this a coup in Honduras, when it is the exact opposite.

progressoverpeace on June 29, 2009 at 2:37 PM

The Honduran government foiled an attempted coup.

Honduras has provided the world with a fine example of the preservation of freedom and liberty utilizing the checks and balances provided within the constitution of a limited government—and in a troubled region, no less.

The worlds reaction clearly demonstrates that they have a lot to learn from Honduras, not the other way around.

If I were president I would be vociferously congratulating Honduras and taking steps to strengthen our alliance.

FloatingRock on June 29, 2009 at 5:23 PM

Had the military arrested and detained Zelaya in advance of an impeachment action and/or criminal prosecution, then I could go with the not-a-coup argument. Dumping him outside of the country is not exactly a due-process removal — and I think that falls into the yes-it’s-a-coup territory. Perhaps necessary, perhaps very supportable, but it’s obviously an extralegal removal, which is the very definition of a coup.

he was arrested under orders and was told that he had the option of leaving the country or being tried for his crimes he opted to leave. Seems to me the country’s government went through great lengths to deal with him but knowing how the leftist are they probably couldn’t go through local law enforcement or he could pull the “they are trying to kill me” line and crack down on the general populace as many dictators have done before.
If he is the military’s CinC and the Military swears an oath the constitution and the lawful orders of the president then the constitution supercedes the president. The oath for every soldier in America is the same and should the President of the United States ever go against the constitution of the United States it is the responsibility of the the upper echelon to deal with him if congress will not.

theguardianii on June 29, 2009 at 5:24 PM

Sorry for the double post…

Upstater85 on June 29, 2009 at 5:24 PM

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