WSJ: White House tried to prevent Honduran president’s ouster

posted at 7:32 pm on June 28, 2009 by Allahpundit

Via Gateway Pundit. I understood The One’s logic for not wanting to meddle in Iran. I don’t understand his logic for wanting to meddle in Honduras.

Reaction to the apparent coup was swift. U.S. President Barack Obama said he was “deeply concerned” and called on all political actors in Honduras to “respect democratic norms, the rule of law and the tenets of the Inter-American Democratic Charter. Any existing tensions and disputes must be resolved peacefully through dialogue free from any outside interference,” he said.

The Obama administration worked in recent days to prevent President Zelaya’s ouster, a senior U.S. official said. The State Department, in particular, communicated to Honduran officials on the ground that President Obama wouldn’t support any non-democratic transfer of power in the Central American country.

“We had some indication” that a move against Mr. Zelaya was a foot, said a U.S. official briefed on the diplomacy. “We made it clear it was something we didn’t support.”

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton joined Mr. Obama Sunday in criticizing the Honduran coup and calling for the restoration of the democratic process.

“We call on all parties in Honduras to respect the constitutional order and the rule of law, to reaffirm their democratic vocation, and to commit themselves to resolve political disputes peacefully and through dialogue,” Mrs. Clinton said in a statement.

Read Fausta’s amazing round-up of what happened here. In a nutshell, Zelaya wanted another term as president so he decided to hold a popular referendum on whether he should be eligible. Minor problem: The Honduran constitution can’t be amended by popular referendum so the country’s supreme court ordered the vote canceled. Zelaya tried to go ahead with it anyway. Literally every other arm of the Honduran government — judiciary, legislature, military — was against him, to the point where the troops who arrested him this morning were evidently acting on a court order. Why such strong, unified opposition? According to one retired Honduran general cited by Fausta, it’s because Zelaya’s a Chavez stooge and him staying on would mean “Chavez would eventually be running Honduras by proxy.” Two questions, then. One: In their rush to drool all over themselves about “the rule of law,” do Obama and Hillary realize that it’s Zelaya who was flouting the rule of law here? I know The One’s a big believer in executive power but even he’d acknowledge that defying an order from the Supreme Court crosses the line (I think). And two: Why is Team Barry siding with Zelaya instead of simply staying out of it? The White House proved with Iran that they’re capable of maintaining very tactful silences for excruciatingly long periods of time. Yet today we’ve got not only the secretary of state but the president himself rushing out statements. Is this some kind of half-assed attempt to make nice with Chavez now that relations have been restored by supporting one of his cronies? What am I missing here?

Update: Yep, the military acted on a court order. It’s not clear to me, though, why they felt compelled to have Zelaya arrested and ousted considering that the rest of the government, including the army, was against him. Presumably his enemies feared that he’d win the illegal referendum if it went ahead and that would galvanize public support for changing the constitution. Although a coup’s going to have a galvanizing effect of its own, no?

Here’s a possible explanation for why The One was so quick to denounce this:

The Honduran armed forces have however had historic links with the US, dating back to the Contras, the armed groups that were backed by the Central Intelligence Agency to topple the Left-wing Sandinista regime of Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua. Mr Ortega is once again president of Honduras’s neighbour. The army has a long history of involvement in politics and governed Honduras from 1956 to 1982…

Mr Chavez, with more than a decade in power, began his reforms in Venezuela by holding a Constituent Assembly and changing the constitution. Mr Zelaya had stated that he wished to do the same and that the referendum was supposed to be the first step.

I guess Team Barry figured that if they didn’t come out loudly against this, suspicions inside the country about the military being in cahoots with the U.S. would fester. Eh. They’ll fester anyway.

Update: Commenter “elduende” sums up The One’s dilemma nicely: “Someone is going to be left holding the short end of the stick on this one. Will Obama stand by while Venezuela uses force to install their lackey in Honduras? Thus siding with Chavez and crushing democracy in Honduras. Or will he stand with the democratic institutions in Honduras as they seek to reassert their democratic rights and risk being labelled just another in a long line of ‘typical yankee presidents.’”


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4 5

journeyintothewhirlwind on June 28, 2009 at 9:28 PM

For starters he could have followed through the coup that drove Chavez out of power in 2002. Instead he pulled US military support and left the Venezuelan military in the lurch after they had thrown Chavez out of the country and was on his way to Cuba for exile. Don’t you think that could have solved alot of problems?

I do.

There are plenty of others but the for the sake of brevity I’ll just say that each of the dominos that have fallen in Latin America were preventable by following through on the coup against Chavez. There are always options, even now at this late date.

elduende on June 28, 2009 at 9:38 PM

There are always options, even now at this late date.

elduende on June 28, 2009 at 9:38 PM

Assuming we had a president with “a pair,” what would those options be? They`d have to wait 4 yrs. though.

ThePrez on June 28, 2009 at 9:40 PM

Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution states quite plainly that any executive who even proposes changing the rule that a president cannot stand for re-election is immediately discharged of his duties, and banned from political office for 10 years.

ARTICLE 239 .- The citizen who has ownership of the executive branch may not be President or Vice President of the Republic.

Anyone who violates this provision or the proposed reform, and support those who directly or indirectly, immediately cease the discharge of their duties and shall be disqualified for ten (10) years to exercise any public function.

The Supreme Court and Congress in Honduras had to get the military’s help to uphold the Constitution. Just like they’ve said. Yet for some reason, the media is listening to Zeyala’s version. I wonder why that is.

Who you going to believe, the president trying to illegally extend his mandate or your lying eyes?

Seixon on June 28, 2009 at 9:42 PM

they don’t run around all holier than thou.HUGE DIFFERENCE. So keep on banging on Obama, he’s stronger than you guys and lightyears smarter.

athensboy on June 28, 2009 at 8:59 PM
What a stupid argument. Do you mean to tell me that the left are not acting holier than though right now going on and on about the latest scandal?

baloney.

And what is wrong shouting for what is wrong! You lefties have your feet firmly planted in mid air. You will stand for nothing.

shick on June 28, 2009 at 9:34 PM

What he means is that the lefties have no morals to get in the way of their lying, cheating and stealing.

Big John on June 28, 2009 at 9:43 PM

I’m betting you don’t get an answer. Must less a straight one.

HoustonRight on June 28, 2009 at 9:32 PM

Moral relativists bug me.

You are probably right. But I shouldn’t go feeding trolls.

shick on June 28, 2009 at 9:43 PM

But, keep acting dumb and asking “But why is he …?” I guess it makes you feel better.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 9:29 PM

I’m with your views almost all of the time, but I can easily empathize with AP. For some of us, it’s really, really difficult to accept (“wrap your head around the idea”) that a President of ours could possibly be so anti-American as this one appears.
Maybe it just shows AP is almost as old as me.

petefrt on June 28, 2009 at 9:45 PM

I’m with your views almost all of the time, but I can easily empathize with AP. For some of us, it’s really, really difficult to accept (”wrap your head around the idea”) that a President of ours could possibly be so anti-American as this one appears.
Maybe it just shows AP is almost as old as me.

petefrt on June 28, 2009 at 9:45 PM

Yeah, but you guys experienced Jimmeh Carter… And he’s about as un-American as you can get.

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 9:46 PM

What he means is that the lefties have no morals to get in the way of their lying, cheating and stealing.

Big John on June 28, 2009 at 9:43 PM

Dont we know it.

shick on June 28, 2009 at 9:46 PM

What will the Kenyan dictator wanna be do? Does this predict the future?

tarpon on June 28, 2009 at 9:46 PM

During a conference in Tegucigalpa bringing together UN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) officials and drug ministers from 32 Latin American and Caribbean nations, the conference host, Honduran President Manuel Zelaya called for legalizing drug use. In so doing, he joins a growing list of Latin American leaders singing the same tune.
Here is a big clue to some of questions.

fourdeucer on June 28, 2009 at 9:48 PM

Assuming we had a president with “a pair,” what would those options be? They`d have to wait 4 yrs. though.

ThePrez on June 28, 2009 at 9:40 PM

Sure fund and organize the democratic opposition movements in each of these countries. Start up a Radio Free Latin America and begin broadcasting counter programming into these countries. Expand a Visa program for their educated professionals to bring them here which would devastate their infrastructure and economies beyond repair when all their engineers, scientists, and doctors end up here. etc etc.

In Venezuela, which is the most far gone, we could start organizing an insurgency to keep Chavez busy. I mean hell the entire Venezuelan middle class is sitting across the border in Colombia. A lot of folks that know their way around in Venezuela are idling in Colombia. (tells you alot that these people would rather live in a country that has had a 50 year old civil war going rather than live under Chavez). Thats just off the top of my head.

elduende on June 28, 2009 at 9:50 PM

What will the Kenyan dictator wanna be do? Does this predict the future?

tarpon on June 28, 2009 at 9:46 PM

Heh, that is all we need – African uprisings will just light the spark.

WWIV anyone?

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 9:52 PM

elduende on June 28, 2009 at 9:50 PM

Oh, and maybe it would help if we had a national debate on the Cuban model instead of letting Huffington, Stewart, and Moore give 5 sec bouts of “knowledge/wisdom” on the superiority of the Cuban system on Larry King Live hosted by Joy Behar.

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 9:53 PM

Thank God Americans are starting to pay attention!!

christene on June 28, 2009 at 9:20 PM

The great majority of news and entertainment media, educational institutions, and unions are allied with Obama and making it very difficult to get our message out. Unlike most of the trolls here, they can be much more effective at demonizing us, Obama’s opponents, as stupid or evil, thereby making it easier to marginalize us. Like the trolls here, they either lie about, distract attention from, or bury the facts or policies that we find important. And they also sow dissention in our ranks

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 9:54 PM

dissention = dissension

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 9:55 PM

For starters he could have followed through the coup that drove Chavez out of power in 2002. Instead he pulled US military support and left the Venezuelan military in the lurch after they had thrown Chavez out of the country and was on his way to Cuba for exile. Don’t you think that could have solved alot of problems?

WWas Bush 1) thinking that Chavez was out of the country and that it would be best if the Venezuelan army and the people kept him out ON THEIR OWN? Instead of that horrible “US interference”I keep hearing about?
2)did they communicate to Bush that “they could handle it now, thank you very much, and give Bush and the military the brushoff?
3)how far along was our journey in Iraq and Afghanistan by then? did we realize that we needed to realign troops and change shift priorities to those theatres?

I do agree that if we had stuck to that plan it might have erased this current problem and the ones building. 20/20 is a killer.

journeyintothewhirlwind on June 28, 2009 at 9:55 PM

elduende on June 28, 2009 at 9:50 PM

Being alittle vague, aren`t you?

/sarc :)

ThePrez on June 28, 2009 at 9:56 PM

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 9:53 PM

It is shameless and a travesty the way these people are not called out on their lies and worship of totalitarianism. The Cuban model is the Venezuelan/Bolivian/Ecuadoran/Nicaraguan/Guatemalan/Honduran/Guyanese/Salvadoran/Uruguayan/Argentine/Chilean model. And soon ours too.

elduende on June 28, 2009 at 9:58 PM

Yeah, but you guys experienced Jimmeh Carter… And he’s about as un-American as you can get.

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 9:46 PM

Hey, Up, I’ve had too much cheap red wine to make the argument, and the Zzzz monster is fast approaching. Tomorrow we can talk about it if you wish, but for now, let me respectfully suggest you think about it. Imo, Obama is vastly different, for many reasons and on many levels. Obama has set out to transform this country into the antitheses of its former Constitutional self, in ways that defy our ever going back.

petefrt on June 28, 2009 at 9:59 PM

petefrt on June 28, 2009 at 9:45 PM

I understand. And I would even understand AP’s reluctance, given that his job is public and if he spoke straight about The Precedent he might find himself in a heap of trouble. But I don’t think that is what’s happening. If it were, AP would have been for trying to force the Constitutional eligibility issue (which was a clear issue, given just the dual citizenship, aside from the whole birth certificate part). But, instead, he called us names over that, every chance he got. And he praised the idiot messiah for “having brains to spare for the job” while worrying about letting Gov. Palin anywhere near power.

I could normally understand AP’s position, but given the background that has led up to this, I don’t. He is just keeping his eyes shut, putting his fingers in his ears, and screaming “La la la la la” so he doesn’t have to deal with the facts around him.

He’s not the only one, though. It is easy to see that all of the public commentators are unwilling to what is obvious – that The Precedent is a traitor. Beck came close, saying that, were he an enemy of the US trying to destroy us, he would do exactly what Precedent Hussein is doing (and Pajamas had an article up to the same effect some time ago). But, just as with everyone being scared to call the guy a socialist back during the campaign (when he was clearly far worse than a socialist), they are now scared to say what is plain before everyone’s eyes.

This will not end well. And it is a real shame, because a little talk could change a lot. A little bit of honesty coming into the public discussion is what is really needed to let the dems know that they cannot hide The Precedent. The so-called blue dogs and the other dems are just as treasonous as The Precedent. Until they start seeing people talking openly about that, they won’t be scared to push his Kill America agenda, as with the crap&trade. I mean, to ram 1200 pages, plus 300 pages of amendments, not yet put into final form, through a vote … This is too crazy for words. But until they think that, not only will they not get away with it (forget their Congressional seats) but that they will be held to trial for it, they will not stop.

It’s getting very close to the point of no-return. And I mean “no-return”.

As to AP, his feigned cluelessness about the motivations of The Precedent are fairly silly and, frankly, embarrassing to read. It’s like someone who keeps getting water shot in his face from the same water fountain, but constantly trying to drink from it and constantly surprised by it. It’s funny the first few times. Sad after that. But, with what’s at stake, here, it is just a real shame.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 9:59 PM

It is shameless and a travesty the way these people are not called out on their lies and worship of totalitarianism. The Cuban model is the Venezuelan/Bolivian/Ecuadoran/Nicaraguan/Guatemalan/Honduran/Guyanese/Salvadoran/Uruguayan/Argentine/Chilean model. And soon ours too.

elduende on June 28, 2009 at 9:58 PM

Well in fairness, the Chilean model has in the past been a quite staunch capitalists model… it is moving leftward, and they have embraced Government Healthcare, though.

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 10:00 PM

Hey, Up, I’ve had too much cheap red wine to make the argument, and the Zzzz monster is fast approaching. Tomorrow we can talk about it if you wish, but for now, let me respectfully suggest you think about it. Imo, Obama is vastly different, for many reasons and on many levels. Obama has set out to transform this country into the antitheses of its former Constitutional self, in ways that defy our ever going back.

petefrt on June 28, 2009 at 9:59 PM

Well, I will understand if you don’t respond back to this…

Agreed. Obama != Carter. That said, they both share that same anti-Western view. Actually it would seem that we have more recent proof for Carter…

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 10:01 PM

Gird your loins, folks. It’s on!

Chavez threatens military action over Honduras

(from Drudge)

orville on June 28, 2009 at 10:03 PM

As to AP, his feigned cluelessness about the motivations of The Precedent are fairly silly and, frankly, embarrassing to read. It’s like someone who keeps getting water shot in his face from the same water fountain, but constantly trying to drink from it and constantly surprised by it. It’s funny the first few times. Sad after that. But, with what’s at stake, here, it is just a real shame.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 9:59 PM

And I do believe much of it is feigned. I don’t understand this. AP is always one to shoot for high post numbers. Sure, his feigned ignorance might upset some people and initially cause huge post numbers, but I think some people are starting not to buy it. They might not even be reading some of it… AP could be a natural at laying out some of the red meat (and I think he’d see more posts).

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 10:06 PM

It’s absolutely amazing that the Obama administration trembles at lifting a finger to support with words only the democratic protesters in Iran out of a misplaced fear of meddling, but thinks nothing of acting to maintain the power of an unpopular Honduran President in Hugo Chavez’s back pocket!

The more you hear about this, the less you feel that this was an unlawful miltary coup and more a reassertion of Honduran constitutionality and freedom from foreign neighborly influence.

Obama has boxed himself in on this one. This is one we should have stayed out of, at least until Chavez had started making moves to strengthen his puppet. Now, we’re stuck supporting an ousted undemocratic leader and the fishing buddy of Uncle Hugo. “Smarter by lightyears, eh?” OK, I’ve yet to see that.

We might be screwed faster than we all thought.

Wellsy on June 28, 2009 at 10:07 PM

African uprisings will just light the spark.

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 9:52 PM

I think you can bank on it.

petefrt on June 28, 2009 at 10:07 PM

journeyintothewhirlwind on June 28, 2009 at 9:55 PM

The Venezuelan Coup was a done deal.

“US interference”I keep hearing about?

That is in the lexicon of the leftists in power now. Not in Bush’s repertoire of words especially right after 9/11.

did they communicate to Bush that “they could handle it now, thank you very much, and give Bush and the military the brushoff?

All that was needed was OVERT support in the form of public recognition that Chavez was gone. Chavez himself had thrown in the towel. There was no counter-coup or anything of the sort.

3)how far along was our journey in Iraq and Afghanistan by then? did we realize that we needed to realign troops and change shift priorities to those theatres?

Just political support was needed. For the sake of argument lets say troops had been needed. It was before Iraq and we had just hit Afghanistan with…nothing…Air and Naval Air, Special Forces, and CIA Paramilitary spooks. Most of our combat brigades were available at that point.

elduende on June 28, 2009 at 10:09 PM

They might not even be reading some of it…

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 10:06 PM

I usually skip AP’s commentary. I like the mix of stories posted, but only come here to discuss them with you folks and for whomever else is perusing these comment pages.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM

I usually skip AP’s commentary. I like the mix of stories posted, but only come here to discuss them with you folks and for whomever else is perusing these comment pages.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM

Guilty too… I can sometimes read some of AP’s…

Comments are the best part of this site, and I think if they were disabled, I’d stop coming.

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 10:16 PM

Chavez threatens military action over Honduras
(from Drudge)

orville on June 28, 2009 at 10:03 PM

That’s some scary stuff. I hope it’s just more Chavez bluster, but if he goes through with it, America simply just can’t watch with mild disinterest as a socialist Venezuela invades a neighbor. I have a bad feeling, though, that that’s what will happen, and that’s what we’ll do.

Wellsy on June 28, 2009 at 10:16 PM

It’s getting very close to the point of no-return. And I mean “no-return”.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 9:59 PM

Not a doubt in my mind about that.

I always enjoy your posts and learn from them. Usually agree, too.

As for AP, one of his missions here, I suspect, is to build traffic . Controversy builds traffic. So I prefer to take AP one issue at a time.

petefrt on June 28, 2009 at 10:17 PM

America simply just can’t watch with mild disinterest as a socialist Venezuela invades a neighbor. I have a bad feeling, though, that that’s what will happen, and that’s what we’ll do.

Wellsy on June 28, 2009 at 10:16 PM

If it does happen, I have a feeling Obama will suddenly decide it’s best not to “meddle”.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 10:19 PM

…Unless somehow Venezuela is losing.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 10:20 PM

Chavez threatens military action over Honduras
(from Drudge)

orville on June 28, 2009 at 10:03 PM

That’s some scary stuff. I hope it’s just more Chavez bluster, but if he goes through with it, America simply just can’t watch with mild disinterest as a socialist Venezuela invades a neighbor. I have a bad feeling, though, that that’s what will happen, and that’s what we’ll do.

Wellsy on June 28, 2009 at 10:16 PM

I wonder if TOTUS is ready for that 3am phone call.

diogenes on June 28, 2009 at 10:22 PM

“We call on all parties in Honduras to respect the constitutional order and the rule of law, to reaffirm their democratic vocation, and to commit themselves to resolve political disputes peacefully and through dialogue,” Mrs. Clinton said in a statement.

Obama Admin. Giving the “do as I say not as I do” routine. DUMMIES

jaboba on June 28, 2009 at 10:23 PM

elduende on June 28, 2009 at 10:09 PM

IYO- What stopped Bush from making US support of the coup public? From his steadiness on Iraq/Afghanistan/N Korea/Libya etc it is hard for me to picture him not standing on his principles and speaking his own mind, damn the consequences if he firmly believed it was the right thing to do.

Oh, and thank you for responding. I have learned alot and don’t often get the chance to “have a conversation”. I usually just say what I think and leave and read and laugh at the pages of dialogue between all of you. HA is truly a one of a kind place.

journeyintothewhirlwind on June 28, 2009 at 10:24 PM

…Unless somehow Venezuela is losing.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 10:20 PM

The only thing Pantywaste could do is run to the UN… What good would that do?

Proof? He’s the b*tch to all the dictators (makes me wonder if he’d make a very good one…)

He thought if he shot up several black pirates, he would move up a notch, but I highly doubt the Camel King thinks that.

The only reason he is a threat to Israel is because the US and Israel have strong ties…

Now, he is clearly a threat to the US… Even the most passive aggressive female poodles can take down a country.

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 10:26 PM

I wonder if TOTUS is ready for that 3am phone call.

diogenes on June 28, 2009 at 10:22 PM

Well… he’s still trying to get on a 24 hour news cycle…

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 10:27 PM

Chavez threatens military action over Honduras
(from Drudge)

orville on June 28, 2009 at 10:03 PM

That’s some scary stuff. I hope it’s just more Chavez bluster, but if he goes through with it, America simply just can’t watch with mild disinterest as a socialist Venezuela invades a neighbor. I have a bad feeling, though, that that’s what will happen, and that’s what we’ll do.

Wellsy on June 28, 2009 at 10:16 PM
I wonder if TOTUS is ready for that 3am phone call.

diogenes on June 28, 2009 at 10:22 PM

Let’s just say that instead of burgers, Obama would be making a late night diaper run.

Wellsy on June 28, 2009 at 10:29 PM

I also enjoy Progressoverpeace’s posts and have a lot in common with him, especially regarding foreign policy, but I like AP and read his posts. I read Ed’s, too, but find I participate more in AP’s threads partly because I frequently disagree with him, at least in measure. The Jihad Watch videos initially drew me to this site and AP is why I stayed.

But I’d rather Progressoverpeace lay off AP a bit. Some respectful confrontation is fine, but his post above went a little too far, IMO. AP is running a mainstream conservative site, not a conspiracy site. The birth certificate thing in particular hasn’t gone anywhere. I personally think Obama should have been required to show it to the SCOTUS, at least, but AP pushing the story is only going to marginalize HA, not increase the awareness of the story.

There may be a lot of circumstantial/anecdotal evidence to suggest Obama is what many fear, but it could also be attributed to gross incompetence. Sure, at a certain point, statistically speaking, if Obama were benign he would eventually get something right, and he hasn’t, (except the pirate shooting, (though his claiming credit was ridiculous)), and that would indicate that he is malignant, but overtly saying so at this point, with his popularity as it is, is pointless.

People have to draw their own conclusions, and most of the people that read this site, whether they participate in the comments or not, are capable of doing so. Spelling it out to then won’t accomplish anything.

I vote that AP remains an enigma.

(On preview I see this is entirely too long… oh well.)

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 10:34 PM

petefrt on June 28, 2009 at 10:17 PM

I always like your posts, pete. And you’re right about AP’s job building traffic. I’m just venting a bit – though very serious about it.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 10:35 PM

Oh, and thank you for responding. I have learned alot and don’t often get the chance to “have a conversation”. I usually just say what I think and leave and read and laugh at the pages of dialogue between all of you. HA is truly a one of a kind place.
journeyintothewhirlwind on June 28, 2009 at 10:24 PM

you know what I don’t have a clue what went through Bush’s head except maybe fear that his “Democracy rhetoric” would get derailed. Bush initially supported the coup then backed out. Chavez had been democratically elected the first time and his excessess were not as blatant and obvious to outsiders (as they were to insiders). He got cold feet. I think there was some talk about there being some question about the reliability of the regime that would follow. There was and still is no viable politician to take over. These are just guesses because to be honest…

Actually check it out…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt

There you go that’s about as good a summation as I’ve seen…I’m bailing out have a great nite.

elduende on June 28, 2009 at 10:37 PM

But I’d rather Progressoverpeace lay off AP a bit. Some respectful confrontation is fine, but his post above went a little too far, IMO.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 10:34 PM

I don’t think I went too far, but your point is well taken. I’m laying off him.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 10:37 PM

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 10:34 PM

OK, maybe you have a point about the birth certificate, but this isn’t NRO. Actually, NRO can be more Red Meat at times than Hot Air posts… depends on the subject.

I wouldn’t consider Rush Limbaugh to be fringe conservative, yet he doesn’t mind poking and digging.

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 10:39 PM

have a great nite.

elduende on June 28, 2009 at 10:37 PM

You too, Elduende. You’ve been very informative.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 10:43 PM

I wouldn’t consider Rush Limbaugh to be fringe conservative, yet he doesn’t mind poking and digging.

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 10:39 PM

Yeah, and Levin joked about the mysterious missing birth certificate about a week ago. I think it should be verified by the SCOTUS, myself. But that’s different than jumping on the conspiracy bandwagon whole hog.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 10:58 PM

“We call on all parties in Honduras to respect the constitutional order and the rule of law, to reaffirm their democratic vocation, and to commit themselves to resolve political disputes peacefully and through dialogue,” Mrs. Clinton said in a statement.

OR ELSE WHAT? ¿QUE?

Mojave Mark on June 28, 2009 at 11:03 PM

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 10:58 PM

BTW, I wasn’t saying that HA should have endorsed the questioning of eligibility, but just to not have been openly hostile towards it.

On topic, I wonder how long the articles are going to write this Honduran thing up as a “coup”. They can’t really sell that.

This Honduran event should be used to teach everyone the difference between a Democracy and a Constitutional Republic. The power wielded by the People must be limited, the same way all other areas of governmental power are. Republicans should point this out. With all the screaming for “Democracy” these days (I’ll never forgive Bush for that … oy), this is a classic example of why it is dangerous and unstable and why our Founders hated the concept. People need to speak about “democratic mechanisms” instead of “Democracy”.

Just thought I’d throw that in.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:07 PM

Just thought I’d throw that in.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:07 PM

Any predictions as to what the response will be from McCain and Graham? Did they dig themselves in a hole?

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 11:08 PM

OR ELSE WHAT? ¿QUE?

Mojave Mark on June 28, 2009 at 11:03 PM

Clinton: Or else … you won’t. … Want a ‘reset’ button?

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:08 PM

Will Obama stand by

Bozo Hussein is a socialist and a friend of Chavez. So yeah he’s upset and so is his buddy.

dogsoldier on June 28, 2009 at 11:08 PM

Did they dig themselves in a hole?

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 11:08 PM

I didn’t read about this. Did they say something?

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:09 PM

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 10:35 PM

Got it. Thanks. Full speed ahead.

petefrt on June 28, 2009 at 11:10 PM

I didn’t read about this. Did they say something?

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:09 PM

Well, based on their criticism of Obama over the handling of Iran. Don’t get me wrong. I think he handled it poorly, but did they point out the differences between pushing for a democracy vs pushing for freedom? I honestly don’t know… I tend to zone out whenever Graham gets on.

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 11:12 PM

On topic, I wonder how long the articles are going to write this Honduran thing up as a “coup”. They can’t really sell that.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:07 PM

I hope that Fox News will do more in depth reporting tomorrow and shred the left-wing “coup” propaganda at least once an hour while the story is in the news.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 11:14 PM

Thank you and have a good night. I was out catching some fireflies, teethbrushing, reading some books to the 5 year old and have just come back to check back in.

I think it would have been hard on Bush to support a coup by the V. military and let the military stay in control if there wasn’t a viable civilian politician/group to take control. Bush wouldn’t have received a second term if he had left the V. military in control in Venezuela and they in turn started imprisoning/killing people. Democracy, civilian controlled government was and is Bush. Just sad that there was no one there to take the reins.

journeyintothewhirlwind on June 28, 2009 at 11:14 PM

You know, the Telegraph article is sub-titled such:

Manuel Zelaya, the president of Honduras, was arrested by the army in a coup ordered by the country’s supreme court.

Is it even possible that a Supreme Court could affect a coup? They are the final word on Constitutionality (I would assume). How could someone term their actions a “coup”, unless they actually said, “We’re committing a coup, right now.”? By definition, they are the word of the Constitution. And it all seems pretty cut and dried in this case. It was Zelaya who called it a “coup d’etat”. I guess the press couldn’t go all the way with Zelaya …

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:15 PM

This Honduran event should be used to teach everyone the difference between a Democracy and a Constitutional Republic.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:07 PM

Exactly. Pure Democracy is dangerous to minorities. That’s what a constitution is for and separation of powers, and why Zelaya/Chavez/Obama are so dangerous to freedom and liberty.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 11:17 PM

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:15 PM

Well, let’s see what Zelaya said…

This was a plot by a very voracious elite, which wants to keep this country in an extreme level of poverty

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 11:19 PM

“We call on all parties in Honduras to respect the constitutional order and the rule of law, to reaffirm their democratic vocation…” Mrs. Clinton said in a statement.

Did Manuel Zelaya respect the constitutional order and the rule of law when he wanted them changed so that he can be President again? (That tactic worked for Hugo Chavez.)

Didn’t someone in the Congressional Black Congress want the US Constitution changed so Obama can have 3,4 or 5 terms. Hell, just make him President (or King) for life.

bayview on June 28, 2009 at 11:21 PM

So Obama’s the smart one, and W the dumb one?

None of this would be happening if Darth Cheney was still around, and we all know it.

Iblis on June 28, 2009 at 11:22 PM

Is it even possible that a Supreme Court could affect a coup?

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:15 PM

Not unless a constitutional government with a system of checks and balances, properly applied, can be considered a coup. If that’s the case, then our own system suffers from the same, um, “flaw”, as luck combined with the foresight of our founding fathers would have it.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 11:26 PM

Jose Sorrano (D-NYC) introduced House Joint Resolution 5 in January , 2009 to repeal the 22nd Amendment, which limits the president to two terms in office.

Granted, it was nothing more than political grandstanding in the best tradition of the Congressional Democrats.

bayview on June 28, 2009 at 11:29 PM

bayview on June 28, 2009 at 11:21 PM

It’s not about respecting the Constitution. We all respect the Constitution. It’s about whether the Constitution is a ‘living’ document.

[Bwahahaha...]

petefrt on June 28, 2009 at 11:30 PM

but did they point out the differences between pushing for a democracy vs pushing for freedom? I honestly don’t know… I tend to zone out whenever Graham gets on.

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 11:12 PM

Yeah, McCain used to drive me nuts with that, and his idiotic League of Democracies (though leaving the UN for it would have been a good step, at least). I think this gives McCain a chance to understand the problem with his language on this. He can just correct it and he’d be fine (though the whole League idea is hanging there …)

Now it is all very easy to point out in the US:

Democrat – wants a Democracy with people ruling everything

Republican – wants a Constitutional Republic where all powers are defined, limited, and separated.

I think this is nice, simple description, and it would put the Dems on their heels, I think. Mob rule versus the Rule of Law. We need the Dems to acknowledge that the federal government has restrictions. They don’t think so, anymore. They’re trying to sell The Precedent’s idiocy that The Constitution just tells government what it can’t do to people, but that it can do anything else it wants. Crazy, but that’s how their discussions are starting to shape up. At least, it’s been sounding that way to me.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:32 PM

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 11:17 PM

Exactly.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:33 PM

OR ELSE WHAT? ¿QUE?

Mojave Mark on June 28, 2009 at 11:03 PM

It sounds like the world’s left-wing government’s are lining up behind Zelaya and will refuse to recognize the government of Honduras. He’ll probably be treated like the president in exile. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s invited to the White House.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 11:34 PM

Does Hillary get drunk and take pills to sleep at night knowing she lost to this idiot?

SouthernGent on June 28, 2009 at 11:34 PM

Maybe Obama’s planning on something similar in his own future and wants to set a precedent. /stir

Midas on June 28, 2009 at 11:34 PM

If you’ve been following this, you know Zelaya was bad news. He is indeed tight with Castro, Chavez, and Ortega. He wasn’t just trying to stay in power for another term; he wanted some major amendments to the Honduran constitution. It has 8 basic articles that cannot be amended except through supermajority vote of the legislature, and he wanted to amend those through a referendum that people increasingly feared would be rigged.

They feared this because Zelaya had armed thugs showing up in legislators’ offices, judges’ chambers, and at businesses and the news outlets, issuing threats about how the supporters of Zelaya would start bashing the place up and hurting people, if his referendum was not held by 28 June.

He also started wiretapping political opponents back in April, and declared that comprehensive authority to wiretap everyone in Honduras, without any judicial oversight, was needed for national security. He met tremendous opposition over this, and made a show of backing off, regarding private citizens. But alarm and opposition have only been growing.

About 10 days ago he ordered the military to support the referendum on changing the constitution — a move every other branch of government regarded as unconstitutional.

His ouster is a positive development. We’ll have to see what comes of it.

J.E. Dyer on June 28, 2009 at 11:36 PM

I don’t think at all that AthensBoy, Nancy P. Boxer, Reid or the rest of them are liberal at all. They are down right Leftists and probably Stalinists to boot. True liberals will tolerate all opinion and we mistakenly call these fools who run the nation liberals when they are nothing but communists.

garydt on June 28, 2009 at 11:37 PM

Maybe Obama’s planning on something similar in his own future and wants to set a precedent. /stir

Midas on June 28, 2009 at 11:34 PM

You and I weren’t the first to suggest it. The absurdity of Obama’s position on the so-called “coup” lends itself to the possibility.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 11:40 PM

Upstater85 on June 28, 2009 at 11:12 PM

To actually address your comment (I drifted above), I forget what McCain and Graham said about Iran. Most people were falling all over themselves with “Democracy”-fever. But, Honduras will serve as good teaching moment for them. I’m interested to hear what McCain says about this. Maybe the need to lay off the “Democracy” will knock something loose and change his insanity over illegals? It could happen.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:40 PM

Chavez threatens military action over Honduras
(from Drudge)

orville on June 28, 2009 at 10:03 PM

That’s some scary stuff. I hope it’s just more Chavez bluster, but if he goes through with it, America simply just can’t watch with mild disinterest as a socialist Venezuela invades a neighbor. I have a bad feeling, though, that that’s what will happen, and that’s what we’ll do.

Wellsy on June 28, 2009 at 10:16 PM

I wonder if TOTUS is ready for that 3am phone call.

diogenes on June 28, 2009 at 10:22 PM

There are plenty of people who want to kick Chavez’s ass. The last thing Obama could do is help him. He would only get the support of Pelosi and Barney Frank – two hardcore socialists. What an interesting chess game we have going on.

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 11:44 PM

If you’ve been following this, you know Zelaya was bad news. He is indeed tight with Castro, Chavez, and Ortega.

J.E. Dyer on June 28, 2009 at 11:36 PM

…and now Obama. Castro/Chavez/Ortega/Obama.

Thanks for the information in the rest of your post. I hadn’t heard any of that yet. I hope that’s the sort of thing Fox News will dig into tomorrow rather than relying on the Associated Press.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 11:44 PM

Castro/Chavez/Ortega/Obama.

I know the Cap and Tax will is supposed to regulate CO2, but what about C2O2?

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 11:49 PM

Maybe Obama’s planning on something similar in his own future and wants to set a precedent. /stir

Midas on June 28, 2009 at 11:34 PM

You and I weren’t the first to suggest it. The absurdity of Obama’s position on the so-called “coup” lends itself to the possibility.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 11:40 PM

I am sorry but our military would uphold the Constitution before bowing to Obama. Just like in Honduras.

Who do you think trained the Honduran Military?

http://paulitics.wordpress.com/2009/06/28/breaking-news-this-morning-right-wing-forces-staged-a-coup-detat-in-honduras/

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 11:49 PM

Castro/Chavez/Ortega/Obama.

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 11:44 PM

Castro/Obama/Chavez/Ortega

COCO. The Coco-Puffs.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 11:51 PM

I am sorry but our military would uphold the Constitution before bowing to Obama. Just like in Honduras.

I think so, too. In another thread I wondered if perhaps the lesson Obama could learn from Honduras is that Chavez’s tactics won’t work if the military has a tradition of fighting Marxism and values the rule of law. However, if an international precedent is set that the checks and balances of a consitutional republic are somehow illegitimate—well, then maybe somebody like Obama might find this to be a confidence booster.

Anyway, it’s just a possibility/suspicion, not an official conspiracy theory or anything. :)

FloatingRock on June 28, 2009 at 11:56 PM

AP wrote:

One: In their rush to drool all over themselves about “the rule of law,” do Obama and Hillary realize that it’s Zelaya who was flouting the rule of law here? I know The One’s a big believer in executive power but even he’d acknowledge that defying an order from the Supreme Court crosses the line (I think).

It’s quite simple why Obama reacted differently in this particular situation: He shares Zelaya’s aspirations to become “President for Life”, and was apparently hoping that Zelaya would succeed in Honduras, setting a precedent, just as Chavez did in Venezuela.

The One’s Grand Plan for the runup to 2016?

1. Call for a Referendum of Americans to determine if he had their support for running for a third term as President.

2. If the “referendum” resulted in significant support, use that as justification for calling for a Constitutional Convention to amend the US Constitution.

3. Make sure the amendment is rushed, as Obama is rushing all legislation which might possibly run into major opposition among American constituency, and make sure it is onerous and verbose, making careful reading a monumental task. And make sure that the verbage includes unlimited terms for the Office of the President of the USA.

Voila! The One would, essentially, secure the title of Supreme Leader and President for Life.

Might sound crazy to some, even to many, but based on the outrageous insanity of his performance to-date, it’s clearly not out of the realm of possibility. That’s what concerns me the most.

Why else has Obama been, essentially, ‘d**sing’ so many of our democratic allies, and pandering to so many dictators and tyrants?

KendraWilder on June 29, 2009 at 12:06 AM

The fascist in chief hates democracy and freedom anyway, now at least he doesn’t have to pretend to support it, instead he can have a friendly dialogue with whoever Chavez installs as the head of the new regime there. Never mind that they’ll be a communist pig…that’s what zerobama wants.

The reason he wanted the pres to stay was so people would get used to the idea of ‘constitution change’ and he could somehow use this as a warped precedent to explain what he’s going to do to our own constitution soon.

Viva la revolutione

Spiritk9 on June 29, 2009 at 12:11 AM

Obama is simply against the military, even if what they are doing is the right thing. He thinks that all that’s needed are words, just words.

HotWeaver on June 29, 2009 at 12:13 AM

Well gee, isn’t that why they’re taking the census out of the hands of the Commerce Dept and giving it to ACORN? I have no doubt that the day after they ram amnesty though, those folks will have the right to vote too. Does it matter whether it’s Obama for life or someone else just as bad every 4-8years? This country had better wake up real fast. I hope it’s not too late already. The way crap-n-tax and the stimulus got through, I have my doubts.

Shay on June 29, 2009 at 12:28 AM

Census is not leaving Commerce. The Decenial Census has been on the GAO high-risk list for over a year. If ACORN has a major role and they commit fraud, the world will know about it, unless Obama meddles further with the Legislative Branch.

BottomLine5 on June 29, 2009 at 12:39 AM

True liberals will tolerate all opinion and we mistakenly call these fools who run the nation liberals when they are nothing but communists.

garydt on June 28, 2009 at 11:37 PM

Good point. The problem is that the term has been redefined by those statists that moved under the umbrella of liberal.

You are right, look at the definition of liberal and these communists don’t belong under it.

Then they have the nerve to say that conservatives have moved to far right when they never moved at all.

shick on June 29, 2009 at 12:57 AM

Marxists got to stick together.

n0doz on June 29, 2009 at 1:06 AM

Tin hat time………..

I wonder if Obama will attempt to curry favor with US military in some way. Perhaps he will insist on huge wage/benefit increases. Free college tuition for dependents? Full retirement, dental, medical and vision at 20 yrs? Interest free home and car loans? No income tax if you serve?…. ever. 200% matched savings plan?

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer no?

/tin hat off (with a tiny bit of tin foil that remains stuck to my head)

Socmodfiscon on June 29, 2009 at 1:30 AM

Korea firing missiles
Iran blaming America
Venezuela invading Honduras
China pushing for reserve currency
Russia pushing back US missile defense
Israel resisting appeasement
Russia upgrading missile defense in Cuba

Is it just me or are there sharks in the water smelling baby seal? Certainly no problem pushing Hillary’s “reset” button. In fact, it looks like the Russians are passing it around for one helluva slap-happy joyride.

Who’s next on the “reset” ride, and how, where, when, and why? Russia making a move on the arctic? Cuba demanding to repatriate Gitmo lands? North Korea invades South Korea? Any bets on another foreign affairs front opening up before the 4th of July?

And that doesn’t include what’s not happening on the home front. Seriously, can we get a scorecard going here?

orville on June 29, 2009 at 3:15 AM

Barack Obama (D Manchuria)

Terry_Dyne on June 29, 2009 at 3:51 AM

Zelaya was in violation of the Honduran Constitution.

This was not a coup. Zelaya was legally removed by the military at the request of the Honduran Congress and the Honduran Supreme Court that have the following two articles of the Honduran Constitution as the legal authority to do so;

ARTICLE 239.- declares that any president that seeks to invalidate the Honduran Constitution in an effort to stay in office shall be removed immediately and not be eligible for office for 10 years. And

ARTICLE 205.- which states that Congress has the power to investigate and remove said president at their leisure.

elduende on June 29, 2009 at 6:07 AM

Obama:

1) Chums with Hugo Chavez and Bashar al-Assad, returning ambassadors to both insaniacs.
2) Works to drop sanctions to Castro’s Cuba.
3) Wants to get chummy with Ahmadinejad and sits on his hands as Iran tries to throw the ayatollahs out.
4) Now wants to prop up one of Chavez’s best left-wing loony buddies in Honduras.

This man is NOT, I repeat, NOT to be called a communist or socialist. Evah.

Red Cloud on June 29, 2009 at 6:26 AM

Of course Obama backs Zelaya. Obama also would like to be president-for-life.

Squiggy on June 29, 2009 at 6:38 AM

Obama seems to have issues with those pesky Constitutions.

sloopy on June 29, 2009 at 6:51 AM

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4 5