CanadaCare sends baby to US for treatment

posted at 11:00 am on June 28, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

My friend Michael Stickings links to a story of bureaucratic outrages involving an acutely ill premature baby, but only focuses on one particular outrage while excusing the other.  Because Canada does not have the capacity to deal with the demand for neo-natal intensive care for premature births, the single-payer system sent the critically ill child to the United States for treatment.  Unfortunately, the parents do not have passports which are now required for crossing the border, and the US refuses to allow them into the country without them:

A critically-ill premature-born baby from Hamilton is all alone in a Buffalo, N.Y., hospital after she was turned away for treatment at local facility and transferred across the border without her parents, who don’t have passports.

Ava Stinson was born Thursday at St. Joseph’s Hospital, 14 weeks premature.

A provincewide search for an open neonatal intensive care unit bed came up empty, leaving no choice but to send the two pound, four ounce baby to Buffalo.

Her parents Natalie Paquette and Richard Stinson couldn’t follow their child because as of June 1, a passport is required to cross the border into the United States.

They’re having to approve medical procedures over the phone and are terrified something will happen to their baby before they get there.

Stinson has a criminal record, which makes matters worse for entry to the US.  Obviously, though, this is not a planned diversion but a real medical crisis.  Surely the US and Canada can agree to temporary measures that will allow the parents to cross the border, even if under embassy supervision and security, to join their child.  As Michael notes, keeping them away from their child at this critical juncture is needlessly cruel.

But let’s not place the onus on the US for the need to separate the parents in the first place.  Michael attempts to dismiss the underlying problem:

I won’t get into the relative merits of the American and Canadian health-care systems here. Suffice it to say that there obviously need to be more neo-natal intensive care unit beds up here. Thankfully — and this doesn’t mean that the American system is better (after all, at least the couple and their baby are guaranteed care up here, thanks to our public system, even if it’s not perfect) — there was an opening south of the border.

Well, it’s impossible to look at this situation without seeing the relative merits of the American and Canadian systems.  First, the child would have gotten care in the US, too, regardless of insurance status.  People get emergency care regardless in this country.  There is a difference between health insurance and access to care that some people elide for purposes of political argument.  No one gets turned away from emergency care for lack of ability to pay.

But why wasn’t there a NICU bed for the child in the entire nation of Canada?  The government of Canada won’t pay for more.  They don’t exist to expand supply to meet demand; their single-payer system exists to ration care as a cost-saving mechanism.  In a free-market system, supply expands to meet demand, which is why Canada could subcontract out to a US hospital for capacity.  Michael writes that paragraph as if it was mere luck that an NICU bed happened to be open in the US, but that’s a function of the system, and not luck.  These parents are separated from their child at the moment through the fault of Canada’s government and not the US.

It’s a good lesson for both Americans and Canadians as the administration and Congress attempt to push a systemic overhaul of the US health-care system that will cost trillions and push us towards the same kind of single-payer system that Canada has.  When we handle our health-care system like Canada, where will Canadians send the next NICU case they can’t handle?  And where will America send ours?

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4 5

“Capitalism out of control – then again we’ve always reined them back.”

Who are the “them?”

They are US, Ann.

Alana on June 28, 2009 at 2:16 PM

If you cared to do a modicum of research, you would find that the problem of overprescription is an extremely serious one in Canada, despite our government-funded single-payer system. But then I’d be repeating myself.

I heard you. I’m not surprised. I think this is a global issue.

But link?

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:16 PM

With free market in healthcare we choose whch doctors to see. They compete. The better ones rake in the dough while the ‘bottom of the bucket’ are left broke and must innovate in order to compete. Microsoft is so large because it supplies demand. if it didnt give the people what they wanted. guess what? microsoft would be going out of business. that’s how it works. we don’t need anti-trust laws. that’s just socialistic bs.

The competition and technology will drive down prices.worry about bad doctors with a state exam? do your research. you’re the one employing the doctor. people need to learn how to communicate and think for themselves. if you don’t trust a doctor, go to a different doctor. the choice is always in the patient’s hands in a free market situation

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:16 PM

Ann, you know that once the public option is “tried” it can never be “ditched”…look at Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, which are horribly funded and going bankrupt…why do you want to add more to the kitty?

Sort of like the teachers’ unions?

or the lobbyists?

Let the private sector start controlling elections, and we lose control?

Like that?

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:18 PM

Very good analysis of what is really happening, Ed. Keep up the good work.

cjs1943 on June 28, 2009 at 2:19 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:15 PM

How many jobs have you created Ann? How many things have you invented or innovated? Have you ever lived in a hotel while your husband is writing up patents and your are trying to fund a company? Have you ever done anything but coast on other peoples innovations and hard work so you can sit around “thinking” about capitalism out of control?

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 2:19 PM

My friend Michael Stickings links to a story of bureaucratic outrages involving an acutely ill premature baby, but only focuses on one particular outrage while excusing the other.

There is only one “outrage” here (the U.S. can not be expected to turn it’s laws upside down for two parents, including the criminal father. We are suppose to be a nation of laws, not men) and I do not believe that this Michael Stickings is concerned about the baby at all but just wants to bash the U.S.

MB4 on June 28, 2009 at 2:20 PM

Raw capitalism has NEVER produced the best results.

It’s always had to be softened by regulations, etc.

Otherwise, frankly, we’d all be working 16 hours a day still.

History really shows that this is the case. It’s a give-and-take.

Right now, we’re all suffering because capitalism was given too much rein. They bankrupted the flipping world.

Now, pull back time.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:20 PM

Suffice to say, I think public option should be tried. Hey, if it fails?

Then, fine. Ditch it.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:09 PM

So, you’re the “only opponent troll here today” huh? What’s wrong, others get the weekend off?

Seriously, the above “give it a try, ditch it if it doesn’t work” idea could only be proposed by a genuinely stupid liberal. The only reason that I’m being so harsh is because you’re lies and/or ignorance has been repeatedly demolished, in this thread and earlier ones, and you persist in throwing this junk out there.

Our healthcare system isn’t perfect. It only properly cares for maybe 80-90% of our population at this time, and far too many mistakes, omissions and malpractice events occur. However, to rip the private/free enterprise heart from the system, replace it with a “postal” model of government care, and then have a blase attitude of “if it doesn’t work, we can change it. No harm, no foul” despite wrecked health, lives and careers is the height of irresponsible liberal folly.

cs89 on June 28, 2009 at 2:21 PM

Some of the fears of the right are legitimate. It WILL have to be controlled.

What I don’t get? So? Just say, public option gets you THIS.

List it out, just like we now do with private policies.

We know how to do this.
AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:12 PM

What you don’t get with a single-payer government system will change over time, and it won’t be for the better.

In Ontario, for example, prescription drugs or dental care have never been covered. Prescription drugs, by the way, includes cancer chemotherapy medications that are taken orally. A few years ago, a number of services were ‘delisted’ – eye examinations and physiotherapy are the ones I recall (undoubtedly because they have affected me :) but there were others.

Another poster mentioned that in the 1980s her grandfather received 3 years of 24 hour home care. When my mother was sent home 2 weeks ago with a cracked pelvis, she was offered 120 hours of care but they couldn’t come up with it right away.

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 2:21 PM

AnninCA:

“…I still don’t understand why cancer treatment is so sky-high.

What’s up with that?”

There is no cure so treatment is ongoing management. So, part of the expense is the actual extended need for limited resources. If one has an isolated cancer that can be excised, simply, then that’s the “best case” scenario despite high, front-loaded medical expense. If your case is systemic or likely systemic, then the rest of the care is intensive and prolonged essentially until you die. There’s just no way around the reality of cellular DNA gone awry, and fighting nature has its costs.

Also, the resources themselves are hard to come by. Since there is no magic bullet, the regimes for treatment are varied and often experimental. R&D for treatment must be folded in to the implementation of care. Leading edge of anything is expensive, medicine particularly, so, because biotechnical research is ongoing until a “silver bullet” is discovered, cancer-like diseases will continue to gorge resources.

Thankfully we currently have a system whereby these medical advances are possible. They weren’t in the days of yesteryear when the answers were, despite lack of interference from government, leeches and prayer. Whatever historical frame we’re in, however, it’s when the people have the freedom to choose and develop their own cures that real advance continues, not when an “all-knowing” collection of disinterested yet power hungry managers dictate to all the “best” path. Liberty and free market will provide any and every answer. Pricing and resource allocation will be optimized.

AnonymousDrivel on June 28, 2009 at 2:23 PM

without a state exam*

do you think Walmart would be thriving if it jacked up prices 1000%>? no. not unless the government were there to back them up, which would probably happen. in the free market they would go out of business and people would shop with their competitors.

that’s how it should work in EVERY industry. those that supply the demand stay in business. those that don’t, go out of business.

yes, including the banking industry. we don’t need a central banking system and we should allow competition in currency. if I want to use euro in the us, why not? this would prevent rapid inflation because we would all just dump the usd when it really gets bad. but we can’t because ONLY the usd is allowed. I can’t start my own minting company. why?

Private currency was more effective in england. but then they banned it lol

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:23 PM

(after all, at least the couple and their baby are guaranteed care up here,

Really? It was guaranteed? Then why is the kid in the US?

boomer on June 28, 2009 at 2:24 PM

How many jobs have you created Ann?

Not a single one. I do admire small businesspeople. But, no, not me.

I was part of a corporate structure, working for CEOS. Actually, one of my tasks was to write their speeches, etc., and communicate to the company. I worked with corporate lawyers, worked with the benefits manager and know a lot about that stuff, and was the person who made sure that we met the requirements for government in executive compensation while making sure you couldn’t possibly entirely figure it out. *haha

Good living, I guess.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:24 PM

Raw capitalism has NEVER produced the best results.

It’s always had to be softened by regulations, etc.

Otherwise, frankly, we’d all be working 16 hours a day still.

History really shows that this is the case. It’s a give-and-take.

Right now, we’re all suffering because capitalism was given too much rein. They bankrupted the flipping world.

Now, pull back time.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:20 PM

That’s bull. if you don’t want to work 16 hours a day, you don’t work 16 hours a day. simple, eh?

capitalism = voluntary social interaction. that’s it. you’re buying too much into what the socialists have been lying about for over 100 years

they have been calling MERCANTILISM capitalism, and getting away with it. 19th century england was mercantilistic, not capitalistic, yet they confuse the two..very ignorant

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:25 PM

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 2:13 PM
It’s selective deafness…you know, like that a child has?

ladyingray on June 28, 2009 at 2:15 PM

That’s it! I knew it seemed familiar but couldn’t put my finger on it.

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 2:25 PM

Thankfully we currently have a system whereby these medical advances are possible. They weren’t in the days of yesteryear when the answers were, despite lack of interference from government, leeches and prayer. Whatever historical frame we’re in, however, it’s when the people have the freedom to choose and develop their own cures that real advance continues, not when an “all-knowing” collection of disinterested yet power hungry managers dictate to all the “best” path. Liberty and free market will provide any and every answer. Pricing and resource allocation will be optimized.

It does seem like cancer treatment is very fluid these days.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:25 PM

Instead of getting caught up in The Twister, I looked for news updates and discovered this:
This is what the Left wants to divert attention from, to rationalize away, to bury.

My prayers are with Natalie Paquette and Richard Stinson, and their little daughter, Ava Isabella Stinson.
Source article.

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 2:26 PM

If you cared to do a modicum of research, you would find that the problem of overprescription is an extremely serious one in Canada, despite our government-funded single-payer system. But then I’d be repeating myself.
I heard you. I’m not surprised. I think this is a global issue.

But link?

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:16 PM

Go to Google. Enter into the search parameters Overprescription of Drugs in Canada and you will turn up a LOT of links.

Now that I’ve done part of your homework for you, would you please address the salient part of my question.

How would a government plan solve this problem?

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 2:28 PM

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 2:26 PM
Thanks for that link.

ladyingray on June 28, 2009 at 2:28 PM

the need for a government is just an illusion. but as long as we believe in this myth then we should atleast come to one conclusion…free market capitalism is the *only* way to go

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:30 PM

The whole “public option” thing is a canard. So, if I understand the Administration, they’re proposing creating a public insurer that won’t take government subsidies, and which will provide insurance to those who don’t otherwise have it.

So, now, it’s not going to receive subsidies? What then distinguishes it from all the other insurance providers? Government capital is a subsidy: managers at private health firms are accountable for the cost of their capital, so free capital has no cost, and thus is equivalent to a government subsidy.

Is the unspoken assumption there that it will be run by unaccountable government bureaucrats who know how to control costs, in contradistinction to their private-sector counterparts who are answerable to shareholders, but yet somehow pay no attention to cost? Anybody who believes that is possible disqualifies themselves from serious argument: if government intervention were the predictor of cost control, why is our cost of educating a child the highest in the world while our scholastic ranking is one of the poorest? Sorry, no sale.

Maybe it’s because it won’t be for-profit? I’ve got news for you: organizations either make a profit or a loss; there’s no such thing as sustainable breaking-even. In the unlikely event the “public option” is profitable, it will be pillaged by politicians until it’s not, and then some. In the more likely event that it’s a big loser, either it goes broke, or gets money from government. Civil servants are masters at appropriating unnecessary funds for their little fiefdoms, and working their way up the pay scale: their pay, in large part, depends upon the number of people working under them in their “unit”. It doesn’t work that way in the private sector: managers are rewarded for having lower head-count.

The most laughable line is “if you like your plan, you can keep it”. Right. Until your employer no longer can deduct the cost of the plan from income for tax purposes. Then your employer will stop providing the plan, and dump you onto the “public option” — especially if the alternative is to go out of business. So millions of people won’t actually be able to keep their plans. That will mean that, very quickly, the “public option” will be vastly under-funded, and of course, in need of a “bail-out”, or nationalization of our hospitals and doctors and probably both. Services will be cut, and care will suffer because there will be no price signals to resource allocation. Anybody who believes a central authority is efficient at allocating resources is naive and should spend some time in the military for a first-hand look at the marvels of “central planning”.

And then, our health care will end up like our schools: shockingly expensive for the value delivered.

Put me down for “no”.

mr.blacksheep on June 28, 2009 at 2:30 PM

That’s it! I knew it seemed familiar but couldn’t put my finger on it.

Should I send you a button of “Hate Ann” club membership?

:)

I have to pop this balloon. I like talking about stuff on-line because I don’t care when people disagree.

This is my “non-emotional” space in life.

In real life, that can be way stressful!

But not here.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:31 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:31 PM

Still waiting for your explanation of how a single-payer government health system will reduce the overprescription of medications.

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 2:33 PM

You better hope you don’t need care when Obarfing institutes his Hell-care Plan

blatantblue on June 28, 2009 at 11:16 AM

Please Mr. Obama, I don’t wanna go
Hey, Mr. Obama, please don’t make me go
I had a dream last night about my comin’ medical care
Somebody said “What you’ll get is Dashle Kennedy Care!’”
And there I stood with a rag in my mouth upon which to bite.

Look at them waiting lines there, they’re hardly even movin’
And there’s a bureaucrat at every one
Hey, Mr. Obama, you mind if I be excused the rest of the afternoon?
HEY BLATANTBLUE, DUCK YER HEAD!!
(Sound of bureaucrat’s clipboard whizzing by)
Hmm, you’re a little bit late on that one, Blatantblue
Whooh, I bet that smarts!

Please Mr. Obama, I don’t wanna go
Listen, Mr. Obama, please don’t make me go
There’s a bureaucrat a’waitin’ out there, just fixin to decide my fate
A complainer I’ve been called cuz I don’t wanna wind up screamin’ or dead

I wonder what the Kenyan word for friend is
Let’s see-friend– kemo sabe, that’s it
KEMO SABE!, HEY OUT THERE-KEMO SABE!
Nope, that itn’t it
Look at them durned fascists
They’re runnin’ around like a bunch of wild Mengeles and Kevorkians-heh, heh, heh

MB4 on June 28, 2009 at 2:33 PM

AnninCA:

It does seem like cancer treatment is very fluid these days.

When “the cure” is discovered, it will no longer be fluid. That’s obviously how the practice of medicine evolves. After the cure resource allocation will be optimized and the costs will come down. Bulk rate treatment will enter the market and our longevity will increase. Society and mnkind will benefit.

This is a natural economic cycle consequent to a biological one.

AnonymousDrivel on June 28, 2009 at 2:35 PM

OT but Drudge has a headline about the military in Honduras kicking their President out and sending him to Costa Rica.

What is more interesting is who Obama and Hillary are supporting:The President of Honduras who wanted to have a referendum to change their Constitution to abolish term limits. From the article it looks like their Supreme Court and their Congress didn’t want this to happen and the military stepped in.

The President of Honduras is a leftist closely connected to Chavez. And Hillary and Obama supported him and the “norms of democracy” over their Supreme Court, Congress and Military who didn’t want him rewriting their Constitution.

journeyintothewhirlwind on June 28, 2009 at 2:35 PM

How would a government plan solve this

problem?

My world view is that government is not the solution. It can validate some actual shifts in culture.

I think that the greed factor is probably what people are wrestling with more than anything. Now, I’m a child of the 50′s. A night with a movie and popcorn? Big stuff to me.

I still have a lot of that “simple pleasures” type thinking.

The generation after me? Whoa, they were all about Hummers and private everything.

I think that’s the issue. Government may have to ratchet down epectations.

Or, the alternative, just let us crash.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:35 PM

the problem is that public opinion is meaningless. policy needs to be driven by logic, not by emotionally driven drivel with an opinion for every asshole. you can’t have that in a representative republic. the majority of voters are fundamentally ignorant on just about every topic. opinions don’t mean jack shit, there is science to back up austrian economics. centuries of research that the people and majority of politicians just do not understand. john locke, adam smith, ludwig von mises, to a certan extent milton friedman, murray rothbard, THOMAS JEFFERSON, fredrich hayek.

I doubt even 1% of America knows of these people

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:35 PM

Thanks for that link.

ladyingray on June 28, 2009 at 2:28 PM

You’re welcome. I just wanted to remember myself that this isn’t about word games or statistics or a clump of cells. This is about a real human being who needs help. In America, we can provide such help. In Canada, they don’t. Why?

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 2:36 PM

This is a natural economic cycle consequent to a biological one.

I like that thought. That seems to me to be how it goes. Ebb and flow.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:36 PM

the problem is that public opinion is meaningless. policy needs to be driven by logic, not by emotionally driven drivel with an opinion for every ashole. you can’t have that in a representative republic. the majority of voters are fundamentally ignorant on just about every topic. opinions don’t mean jack shit, there is science to back up austrian economics. centuries of research that the people and majority of politicians just do not understand. john locke, adam smith, ludwig von mises, to a certan extent milton friedman, murray rothbard, THOMAS JEFFERSON, fredrich hayek.

I doubt even 1% of America knows of these people

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:38 PM

Still waiting for your explanation of how a single-payer government health system will reduce the overprescription of medications.

I’m not a single-payer proponent. I don’t think we’re anywhere CLOSE to accepting that. I’m not sure the US will ever go that direction.

I’m for public option. I’m all about portability. We’ve been thrust into a global economy. That’s clear. People need portable benefits to survive.

That’s my deal.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:38 PM

How would a government plan solve this problem?
ProffesorMiao, you dont understand the people who want a “public option” – their main concern is in REDUCING their own medical costs – “caring” for the other uninsured people is their way of making themselves feel good about how great they are in their concerns for their fellow human beings.

This idea of Government health care has NOTHING to do with better services. Any one who knows anything about Medicare and Medicaid can tell you how crappy their “services” are – the most important reason that they want Govt run health care is to reduce their own personal medical costs – and get it for free if possible in the long run.

They want NO DEBATE as to why these costs are high, what role regulations play in disbarring people from buying insurance from other states, how some of these regulations are written to kill small to medium health insurance companies ( with the help of bigger insurance companies of course). They want to NO DEBATE about tort reform or how medical malpractise has become a horror story in this country.

They also dont want to know that the American Medical Association opposes the Obama “option” plan
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/us/politics/11health.html – thats right, the physicians who have already dealt with Medicare and Medicaid RECOIL in horror at the thought that the country is headed towards a single payer system.

ALL THAT THESE LIBERAL-STATISTS CARE ABOUT is in reducing their own health insurance costs ! they would nt care a damn about other people dying – just look at AnnInCA who says that we need to be “realistic” about providing care to senior citizens.

nagee76 on June 28, 2009 at 2:40 PM

their main concern is in REDUCING their own medical costs -

Not entirely. A lot of this debate is over sheer access.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:41 PM

I’m not a single-payer proponent. I don’t think we’re anywhere CLOSE to accepting that. I’m not sure the US will ever go that direction.

I’m for public option. I’m all about portability. We’ve been thrust into a global economy. That’s clear. People need portable benefits to survive.

That’s my deal.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:38 PM

Makes you question women’s suffrage. anywho, you’re asking for all of us to be serfs and to have bad healthcare. you’re asking for the soviet union style healthcare. you’re asking for enslavement. you are asking for totalitarianism

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:41 PM

Makes you question women’s suffrage. anywho, you’re asking for all of us to be serfs and to have bad healthcare. you’re asking for the soviet union style healthcare. you’re asking for enslavement. you are asking for totalitarianism

We’ve slowed down, so I can respond. I have no clue as to what you’re talking about.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:42 PM

hey, ann, the soviet union had it right on health care? LOL

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:42 PM

I will say this. What’s interesting to me is the fear that we’re going to become Canada, France, etc.

Since when have we EVER followed lockstep with other countries.

Frankly, I laugh. I think I may be more optimistic and more truly conservative than a lot of you.

There is NO way that we ever are going to adopt another country’s plan.

We are way, way too American, too pragmatic, too stubborn.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:45 PM

What is more interesting is who Obama and Hillary are supporting:The President of Honduras who wanted to have a referendum to change their Constitution to abolish term limits. From the article it looks like their Supreme Court and their Congress didn’t want this to happen and the military stepped in.

journeyintothewhirlwind on June 28, 2009 at 2:35 PM

Neither Obama nor Hillary are too big on outdated constitutions written by a bunch of old fashion dead white men.

MB4 on June 28, 2009 at 2:45 PM

ann wants Soviet Union style care. they had single payer

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:46 PM

Right now, we’re all suffering because capitalism was given too much rein. They bankrupted the flipping world.
AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:20 PM

We are suffering because capitalists had to find more creative ways around ill-thought-out government regulations. Add more regulations, they will find more ways to make end runs around them. The bulk of the fault lies with the government. And Barney Fwank is already starting a push for lower loan requirements yet again. Do they never learn?

It is the stupidity of the those in government that got us to this point. They continually fail to think in a forward manner about the consequences of their actions. It’s always about the next voting cycle, and not about where their stupid actions will eventually lead us. You will soon learn this when you see what cap and trade does to the economy, pending the Senate vote.

I sincerely hope we won’t have to learn the hard way about health care. Oh, but Switzerland has a fantastic public health care system, you say. Perhaps if the US population was, like Switzerland’s, half the size of greater Los Angeles, we could pull it off. Canada is struggling to cover a tenth of the number of people we have here. One tenth.

PoodleSkirt on June 28, 2009 at 2:48 PM

cmon, ann, show me how you don’t want Soviet care. look, ann, just because we’re in America it doesn’t mean we can do the same thing the Soviets did and do it better. that’s a dream

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:48 PM

Capitalism out of control leads to exactly where we are at.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:15 PM

The most prosperous, peaceful, technologically advanced country in the history of the world. Yeah, enough of that crap already.

Jim Treacher on June 28, 2009 at 2:48 PM

You’re welcome. I just wanted to remember myself that this isn’t about word games or statistics or a clump of cells. This is about a real human being who needs help. In America, we can provide such help. In Canada, they don’t. Why?

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 2:36 PM

In Ontario, many of us already pay about 45% of our incomes in income taxes (federal and provincial)and that’s the ‘middle’ bracket; an extra “health premium” on top of this that not much ($750/yr) but it’s a tax added by a premier who said he wouldn’t raise taxes; 13% sales tax on just about everything we buy; huge taxes on gasoline, alcohol and cigarettes; and property taxes about 50% of which are a levy to fund the public schools (mine this year are slightly over $4000).

In other words, we are taxed to death, primarily to pay for this inadequate health care system. Nobody will elect someone who promises a significant increase in taxes to improve the system, so the powers that be keep cutting more and more corners on health care. The system is unsustainable, but it will have to collapse completely before we can get rid of it.

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 2:49 PM

To the op of this article, you do know that Hamilton and Buffalo are very close to each other, right? And ALL of Canada? Yeah, ok.

And I’m not sure why Americans are so easily brainwashed into thinking that Canada’s health care system is evil or something to fear. Americans have no idea how great it truly is.

MrX on June 28, 2009 at 2:49 PM

I’m not a single-payer proponent. I don’t think we’re anywhere CLOSE to accepting that. I’m not sure the US will ever go that direction.

Honey, it does not matter whether you or the public are “close” to accepting single payer or not – once a public option plane is in place, the employers who are currently providing health insurance benefits to their employees WILL and CAN have second thoughts about continuing to do so – if they figure out that the Govt is going to provide health insurance any way .i.e. the tax payer is ponying up for the ride, why would they be dumb enough to pay for it themselves ?

Your naivete is astounding here – what makes you think that there will be no consequences to this “option” plan ? do you think that the rest of the uninsured people will be insured and the problem goes away… poof !

People here who so exclusively rely on their employers to provide them with health insurance ,because, its sooooo complicated to get it on their own, are going to do what exactly ? HINT: they may now want to “transfer” this “complicated job” onto the Government.

I’m for public option. I’m all about portability. We’ve been thrust into a global economy. That’s clear. People need portable benefits to survive.
Hmmm…. you have not heard of HIPAA or HSAs either. Since you do have a computer, PLEASE try googling them.

Also, please try to see why the hell there are so many Government regulations which bar people from buying insurance outside of state lines.

The Government is the biggest reason for the fuckup -and they now want to “provide solutions” – talk about the audacity of these bastards.

nagee76 on June 28, 2009 at 2:50 PM

Capitalism out of control leads to exactly where we are at.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:15 PM

true capitalism means no involuntary government. we have TONS of government regulation. so your statement here lacks common sense

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:51 PM

ALL THAT THESE LIBERAL-STATISTS CARE ABOUT is in reducing their own health insurance costs ! they would nt care a damn about other people dying – just look at AnnInCA who says that we need to be “realistic” about providing care to senior citizens.

nagee76 on June 28, 2009 at 2:40 PM

I know. I was just trying to pin her down.

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 2:51 PM

Canada is struggling to cover a tenth of the number of people we have here. One tenth.

PoodleSkirt on June 28, 2009 at 2:48 PM

Australia can’t manage it either and they have the population of NY State.

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 2:52 PM

To the op of this article, you do know that Hamilton and Buffalo are very close to each other, right? And ALL of Canada? Yeah, ok.

MrX on June 28, 2009 at 2:49 PM

You do know that the two hospitals could be right next door to each other with the border between them and it wouldn’t change the point about “guaranteed health care” being anything but, right? Yeah, okay.

Jim Treacher on June 28, 2009 at 2:52 PM

Makes you question women’s suffrage. anywho, you’re asking for all of us to be serfs and to have bad healthcare. you’re asking for the soviet union style healthcare. you’re asking for enslavement. you are asking for totalitarianism

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:41 PM

I have no clue as to what you’re talking about.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:42 PM

Therein lies a big part of the problem.

Look up (look up)
Is that our Republic we see
Can’t be (can’t be)
Looks more like ACORN to me
It’s late (it’s late)
It looks real sad
Too bad (too bad)
I think the country’s gone mad
Can’t wait (can’t wait)
Mustn’t hesitate
We’re scroomed (we’re scroomed)
If this goes on too long the country’s forever doomed

MB4 on June 28, 2009 at 2:52 PM

How would a government plan solve this problem?

My world view is that government is not the solution. It can validate some actual shifts in culture.

Government may have to ratchet down epectations.

Or, the alternative, just let us crash.
AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:35 PM

Didn’t sound to me like Obama was going to have his expectations for his family’s health care ‘ratcheted down’.

And you think that government can’t solve the problem but that a government plan can? Isn’t that a wee bit contradictory?

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 2:54 PM

Yeah, my blood’s so mad feels like coagulatin’
I’m sitting here just contemplatin’
He can twist the truth, his conscience knows no regulation.
Trillions of dollars foe his socialist legislation
And tea rallies alone can’t bring sane fiscalation
When the American dollar is disintegratin’
This whole crazy Obama world is just too frustratin’

And you tell me
Over and over and over again, my friend
Ah, you don’t believe
We’re on the eve
of destruction.

MB4 on June 28, 2009 at 2:55 PM

Australia can’t manage it either and they have the population of NY State.

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 2:52 PM

There is nothing to manage. you leave it alone. The only thing the government needs to think about is:

property rights
national defense
law & order

there is nothing else

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:55 PM

There is nothing to manage. you leave it alone. The only thing the government needs to think about is:

property rights
national defense
law & order

there is nothing else

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:55 PM

Quite.

mr.blacksheep on June 28, 2009 at 2:57 PM

Not entirely. A lot of this debate is over sheer access.
BULL EFFING SHIT… a lot of this debate is about how IGNORANT people are as to how and why the Government has EFFED UP the whole system.

Here’s a tidbit of history for you – it was #$#%#$&* FDR who instituted wage controls during WW2 that made companies offer health benefits to attract employees – they couldnt offer them extra salary because of these wage controls.

It is Government that has come up with regulations upon regulations that left employers no choice but to buy insurance from their own states – and it was these regulations which prevented small and medium size companies from offering ANY health plan at all.

No one controls access to the health care system in this country like effing Government does.

nagee76 on June 28, 2009 at 2:57 PM

To the op of this article, you do know that Hamilton and Buffalo are very close to each other, right? And ALL of Canada? Yeah, ok.

And I’m not sure why Americans are so easily brainwashed into thinking that Canada’s health care system is evil or something to fear. Americans have no idea how great it truly is.

MrX on June 28, 2009 at 2:49 PM

This about one of the dumbest things I’ve heard on this thread. This case illustrates how Canada’s OWN system is inadequate – lacks the resources to address even the critical needs of its population – and can only function with the inadequate resources it has because we are fortunate enough to live next door to country with excellent health care and enough space to take the ones we can’t cope with ourselves.

That is NOT an “excellent system”, it is a parasitic one.

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 3:00 PM

In other words, we are taxed to death, primarily to pay for this inadequate health care system. Nobody will elect someone who promises a significant increase in taxes to improve the system, so the powers that be keep cutting more and more corners on health care. The system is unsustainable, but it will have to collapse completely before we can get rid of it.

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 2:49 PM

As you are doing here so well, you and like-minded Canadians can draw attention to the real issues this and similar cases raise. Perhaps you can help educate your fellow citizens and economic freedom can improve in Canada. It might come in handy, as you might be getting a giant basket case on your southern and western borders.

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 3:01 PM

Makes you question women’s suffrage. anywho, you’re asking for all of us to be serfs and to have bad healthcare. you’re asking for the soviet union style healthcare. you’re asking for enslavement. you are asking for totalitarianism

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:41 PM

I have no clue as to what you’re talking about.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:42 PM

The USSR has come and gone; the Soviet rule of East Berlin has come and gone; anyone with the stomach to do so can poke through the rubble of post-Communist Russia and Germany, read released segments of KGB and STASI archives, talk to people who lived in that world and hear what their wretched lives were like: see their 3-room walkup apartments and look at their 2-cylinder cars and their plastic shoes and clothing, and learn about their medical and dental care and their diet and the grim, grey, grimy world they inhabited.

For a half-century of Cold War, we in the U.S. taxed ourselves trillions of dollars for defense, and accepted tens of thousands of our people killed and injured, in a war that eventually freed the Berliners, among others, from Communism.

But BY GOD I’d love to see the Lefties’ beloved Communism re-instituted! I’d love to see it shoved up the Lefties ALL the way to the hilt — and broken off. I’d love to see every Leftie who swoons at the glories of Socialism compelled to LIVE under it for two centuries, since most of one century evidently wasn’t long enough to give them a clue.

Stick it in slowly and covertly, Obama-Socialist-fashion, if necessary. Or stick it in openly and briskly, euro-Socialist style, if possible. Whatever the tactics, I say GIVE people the Socialism they so deeply crave. I’ll leave the world a smiling, happy man if I can see that justice done.

HalJordan on June 28, 2009 at 3:01 PM

Here’s a simple article on what regular people think.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/01/opinion/polls/main2528357.shtml

I tried to find a pablum article on this. I know, folks, that my opinion is not crazy.

Healthcare REFORM was THE number one issue throughout the entire election.

I’m not the ones out of step. Maybe not everyone agrees with my own solutions. That’s probably varied, but I’m definitely not alone in seeing the need for change.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:18 PM

So why not do everyone here a favor and go cavort online with your 72%? Who the hell made you the moral savior of my opinion on health care?

Every post you write is like an idiotic health care related Zen koan. You’ve posted like 2,000 messages in various health care related threads and only about 5 or 10 of those with links to actual data and the rest are just your moronic homilies about the virtues of government-financed health care.

We get it. You aren’t convincing people. You should be the one wondering why. Perhaps your arguments aren’t as solid as you apparently believe they are?

venividivici on June 28, 2009 at 3:04 PM

There is nothing to manage. you leave it alone. The only thing the government needs to think about is:

property rights
national defense
law & order

there is nothing else

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 2:55 PM

I totally agree with you. I was pointing out that even in resource rich countries with low populations such as Australia they can’t preform miracles and make socialism work.

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:04 PM

I know exactly what would help access to healthcare

1. eliminate regulations that interfere with the healthcare inustries. by industries I mean pharma, doctor – patient, research and development, licensing, hospitals, etc.

2. tort reform that protects property rights, but is fair, and protects against fraud.

3. eliminating all forms of state licensing. hospitals, under such a scenario, tend to make deals with schools to accept graduating doctors. they don’t want to hire competent charlatans.

4. eliminating mandatory prescriptions for drugs

5. allowing alternative medicine to be used. they use it in China, why not let the people use it if they want to?

6. eliminate FDA. It takes like 10 years to introduce new drugs in the market. imagine all of the people that died waiting for these drugs!!!

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 3:05 PM

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:04 PM

I’m sorry, got you mixed up with the….other ann ha

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 3:06 PM

I’m sorry, got you mixed up with the….other ann ha

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 3:06 PM

I may have to change my name even though I’ve been here longer, but I really don’t want to be confused with her (if you know what I mean and I think you do).

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:08 PM

HalJordan on June 28, 2009 at 3:01 PM

amen on that one. the government needs to worry about what’s going on overseas and leave healthcare where it belongs…in private hands.

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM

Australia can’t manage it either and they have the population of NY State.

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 2:52 PM

And Australia has a hybrid private/public system. Everybody pays ca. 1% to 1.5% of their income as the “Medicare Levy”, and then if you want (if you’re smart) you will buy private insurance on top of that. The public hospitals are, for the most part, vermin-infested, run-down and filthy.

The care is awful: I had a cycling accident, spent around 6 hours in a crowded “emergency” facility in a public hospital, and eventually hobbled out of there to go to a private clinic to get my wounds treated. But since I was on private insurance, I had 5 or 6 people come to try to convince me to stay the night for “observation” (completely ignoring the fact that, at that moment, I needed actual treatment) because my private insurance would have paid for my stay, and they needed the money. Let me summarize that for clarity: they ignored the fact that I was bleeding out of multiple gashes in my shoulder and hip, but had the manpower to pressure me to stay for “observation”. In fairness, my blood O2 saturation was low, so I did get X-rays (to look for a punctured lung). When those turned out negative, I went on “ignore”, despite my pain and the blood.

Another interesting point: despite the private insurance, Australians who can afford it come to the US for their cancer treatment. I wonder why that is?

mr.blacksheep on June 28, 2009 at 3:10 PM

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:08 PM

yes. I’ll look out for ya

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 3:10 PM

eliminate FDA. It takes like 10 years to introduce new drugs in the market. imagine all of the people that died waiting for these drugs!!!

And about 800 million dollars – no wonder new drugs are so expensive!

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:10 PM

I may have to change my name even though I’ve been here longer, but I really don’t want to be confused with her (if you know what I mean and I think you do).
I hear you – just a thought – may be you can call yourself the Original RepublicANN -you seem to agree with the founding principles of this republic and you are Ann.

Cute,huh:-)

nagee76 on June 28, 2009 at 3:12 PM

mr.blacksheep on June 28, 2009 at 3:10 PM

I remember when I was in Perth, a few years back, there was a news story about people brought to the hospital in ambulances having to wait up to 24hrs to get treated, many of those hours waiting in the ambulances.

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:14 PM

PUBLIC TAKE NOTICE

Ann NY ≠ AnninCA

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 3:19 PM

Here’s a simple article on what regular people think….

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:18 PM

Even assuming that such polling data from the given source using whatever methodology they employed is an accurate reflection of public attitudes, how do you know these “regular people” aren’t simply wrong?

Blacklake on June 28, 2009 at 3:21 PM

you and like-minded Canadians can draw attention to the real issues this and similar cases raise. Perhaps you can help educate your fellow citizens and economic freedom can improve in Canada. It might come in handy, as you might be getting a giant basket case on your southern and western borders.

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 3:01 PM

I sure hope Republicans can get it together to bring Obamacare to a grinding halt. Given the huge majority of people who are happy with their own health care, they have no excuse for failing on this one!

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 3:22 PM

PUBLIC TAKE NOTICE

Ann NY ≠ AnninCA

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 3:19 PM

They are also easily distinguished by the content of their posts. Ann NY can think logically and marshall data to make an argument!

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 3:23 PM

they have no excuse for failing on this one!

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 3:22 PM

Vigilance! Never underestimate the ability of a politician to betray the public trust.

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 3:25 PM

Even assuming that such polling data from the given source using whatever methodology they employed is an accurate reflection of public attitudes, how do you know these “regular people” aren’t simply wrong?

Blacklake on June 28, 2009 at 3:21 PM

ha ha. it’s the old socialist trick. they control education and water down everyone’s brains just so they can show you their ignorance and say, “look, look at what they want!”

ohh yes, the wants of those deprived of individual thought. very important.

opinion doesn’t mean right. if 51% of Americans believe in slavery, does that mean we need to go back there? cherry picking, that’s all it is. she actively searches for polls that support her views because she’s too cloneminded to ever examine her views and admit when she’s wrong. she much rather bathe in kool-aid and pretend she knows everything.

but no…ann from CA is probably a woman that would financially BENEFIT from universal healthcare. I remember a post she made saying that she “knows how to work the system” when universal system gets here

Libertarian Joseph on June 28, 2009 at 3:26 PM

PUBLIC TAKE NOTICE

Ann NY ≠ AnninCA

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 3:19 PM

LOL…. and I know an Ann here in Colorado who is a Moderate… may have to get her to start posting here!

Romeo13 on June 28, 2009 at 3:29 PM

Hey, when is Michael Moore going to condemn that kid’s parents for not having passports?

Jim Treacher on June 28, 2009 at 3:40 PM

ha ha. it’s the old socialist trick. they control education and water down everyone’s brains just so they can show you their ignorance and say, “look, look at what they want!”

That’s a topic for it’s own thread. You mentioned earlier about Von Mises and the Austrians that most people haven’t heard of, the sad thing is that many people in finance today don’t know of those people or the economics they taught.

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:41 PM

PUBLIC TAKE NOTICE

Ann NY ≠ AnninCA

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 3:19 PM

They are also easily distinguished by the content of their posts. Ann NY can think logically and marshall data to make an argument!

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 3:23 PM

Gee, thanks guys!

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:42 PM

Capitalism out of control leads to exactly where we are at.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:15 PM

I didn’t know tautologies were fair game.

How about 100 years of Leftist utopianism leads exactly to where we are at.

Why is one a legitimate cause and the other not?

Let me guess, you’re a Leftist utopian.

jeff_from_mpls on June 28, 2009 at 3:42 PM

LOL…. and I know an Ann here in Colorado who is a Moderate… may have to get her to start posting here!

Funny thing, I used to be in CA up until 2002. Never Colorado though.

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:43 PM

Vigilance! Never underestimate the ability of a politician to betray the public trust.

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 3:25 PM

I’m trying to be optimistic. Please don’t rain on my tiny little parade of hope that sanity will prevail!

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 3:43 PM

“Well, it would be unreasonable to expect Hamilton, a city of half-a-million people just down the road from Canada’s largest city (Greater Toronto Area, five-and-a-half million) in the most densely populated part of Canada’s most populous province (Ontario, 13 million people) to be able to offer the same level of neonatal care as Buffalo, a post-industrial ruin in steep population decline for half-a-century.”

Mark Steyn

Jim Treacher on June 28, 2009 at 3:44 PM

How about the GOP pulls some strings and gets those passports, and then has the parents come to the House and Senate to testify on how utterly suicidal government run single payers healthcare is in Canada?

Sapwolf on June 28, 2009 at 3:44 PM

Hey, when is Michael Moore going to condemn that kid’s parents for not having passports?

Jim Treacher on June 28, 2009 at 3:40 PM

Around the time that he makes a real documentary on the Canadian health care system? In other words, never.

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 3:45 PM

Not to detract from the larger point, but even in Canada where the Federal Govt regulates healthcare via the Canada Health Act, and uses coercion via the power of the purse (aka transfer payments) the actual delivery is run by the provinces – thus there may well have been NICU beds availble elsewhere in Canada, but if there weren’t any in Ontario, then Buffalo is a lot closer than, say, Calgary.

Something else to think about – Ontario, with a population in the neighborhood of 10 million people, is the largest province by far, and its healthcare program is a bureaucratic mess – think about that applied to California with a pop of 30+ million and an already dysfunctional state government.

“Access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare” McLachlin, CJC [That's Chief Justice of Canada - i.e. the Canadian equivalent of Roberts]

holdfast on June 28, 2009 at 3:49 PM

PLEASE READ this article. It was written in 2001 by an American Dr talking up the Cuban “healthcare” system. It is one of the most unintentionally funny things I’ve ever read in my life. Check out what they use of ambulances:

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jul/09/health/he-20224

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:50 PM

Gee, thanks guys!

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:42 PM

Ann,

You betray your total ignorance of human nature, the healthcare industry, economics, politics, the nature of suffering, etc., etc., etc.

Usually trolls figure it out they are making fools of themselves.

Everything you spout is feelings, feelings, feelings and little or no facts and truth.

As long as you are ruled solely by feelings like most women in CA, you cannot imagine how destructive Obamacare will be two plus years forward after it is enacted.

It would be a disaster for the people of the United States, lead to horribly low quality of patient care, incredibly high costs as the government has to borrow or print more money to pay for it further lowering our medium to long-term standard of living.

It is just getting so ridiculous reading your posts because of the extreme ignorance of how things actually work in the real world.

A system of federal control will artificially lower the cost to the insured, drive out competition, reduce the number of doctors and nurses as they leave the profession, and catapult us into insolvency, along with making rationing the normal system. All while Congress and the federal government and unions get BETTER healthcare than the rest of us.

For what? Approximately 10-15 million Americans who are not insured, many by choice.

Give them a tax credit up to $5,000 so they buy insurance and get the government out of it.

It’s bad enough Medicare and Medicaid are bankrupting us now.

Sapwolf on June 28, 2009 at 3:52 PM

Sapwolf on June 28, 2009 at 3:52 PM

You are talking to the wrong Ann….

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:55 PM

Sapwolf on June 28, 2009 at 3:52 PM

Dude…

Jim Treacher on June 28, 2009 at 3:55 PM

All you get from the left is fake crisis’ that have to be dealt with now…”before its too late”.
Fake environmental crisis..fake need for “Porkulus”..fake food safety crisis..fake global warming crisis..fake health care crisis..fake racism problem..etc. etc. With the libs/left/progs is always play the fear card or the race card. They have to do this, because their positions fall apart in the face of facts.

Itchee Dryback on June 28, 2009 at 3:57 PM

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 3:42 PM AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:45 PM

Ann,

You betray your total ignorance of human nature…

Sapwolf on June 28, 2009 at 3:52 PM

FIFY

PUBLIC TAKE NOTICE

Ann NY ≠ AnninCA

[Note to self: Go to all threads in which AnninCA posts, and post public notice.]

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 3:59 PM

[Note to self: PIMF, formatting is not.]

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 4:02 PM

Earlier this year, I woke up at about 4 in the morning with serious abdominal pain. My Mom and I went to the ER and got checked in. They did all their tests, and it turned out I had appendicitis. I got the appendix out in the next 2 hours, stayed overnight, and got checked out the next day.
Our healthcare system is far from perfect (and way too damn expensive). We need to make it better, but I don’t believe socialized medicine is the way to go. If I couldn’t have gotten care at my hosipital, and had to be moved I would’ve been scared shitless. I can’t even imagine it.

Emily M. on June 28, 2009 at 4:04 PM

The generation after me? Whoa, they were all about Hummers and private everything.

I think that’s the issue. Government may have to ratchet down epectations.

Or, the alternative, just let us crash.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 2:35 PM

Eighty percent of us who are satisfied with our health care.

You want the government to rachet down the expectations of 80% of the people. You want them to have less health care.

I’m afraid the government is very good at doing that. The make it impossible to have good things, and that pretty much rachets down our expectations of having them.

Great. Just what we all wanted: Less of everything for everyone. Back to the dark ages.

Alana on June 28, 2009 at 4:12 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4 5