CanadaCare sends baby to US for treatment

posted at 11:00 am on June 28, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

My friend Michael Stickings links to a story of bureaucratic outrages involving an acutely ill premature baby, but only focuses on one particular outrage while excusing the other.  Because Canada does not have the capacity to deal with the demand for neo-natal intensive care for premature births, the single-payer system sent the critically ill child to the United States for treatment.  Unfortunately, the parents do not have passports which are now required for crossing the border, and the US refuses to allow them into the country without them:

A critically-ill premature-born baby from Hamilton is all alone in a Buffalo, N.Y., hospital after she was turned away for treatment at local facility and transferred across the border without her parents, who don’t have passports.

Ava Stinson was born Thursday at St. Joseph’s Hospital, 14 weeks premature.

A provincewide search for an open neonatal intensive care unit bed came up empty, leaving no choice but to send the two pound, four ounce baby to Buffalo.

Her parents Natalie Paquette and Richard Stinson couldn’t follow their child because as of June 1, a passport is required to cross the border into the United States.

They’re having to approve medical procedures over the phone and are terrified something will happen to their baby before they get there.

Stinson has a criminal record, which makes matters worse for entry to the US.  Obviously, though, this is not a planned diversion but a real medical crisis.  Surely the US and Canada can agree to temporary measures that will allow the parents to cross the border, even if under embassy supervision and security, to join their child.  As Michael notes, keeping them away from their child at this critical juncture is needlessly cruel.

But let’s not place the onus on the US for the need to separate the parents in the first place.  Michael attempts to dismiss the underlying problem:

I won’t get into the relative merits of the American and Canadian health-care systems here. Suffice it to say that there obviously need to be more neo-natal intensive care unit beds up here. Thankfully — and this doesn’t mean that the American system is better (after all, at least the couple and their baby are guaranteed care up here, thanks to our public system, even if it’s not perfect) — there was an opening south of the border.

Well, it’s impossible to look at this situation without seeing the relative merits of the American and Canadian systems.  First, the child would have gotten care in the US, too, regardless of insurance status.  People get emergency care regardless in this country.  There is a difference between health insurance and access to care that some people elide for purposes of political argument.  No one gets turned away from emergency care for lack of ability to pay.

But why wasn’t there a NICU bed for the child in the entire nation of Canada?  The government of Canada won’t pay for more.  They don’t exist to expand supply to meet demand; their single-payer system exists to ration care as a cost-saving mechanism.  In a free-market system, supply expands to meet demand, which is why Canada could subcontract out to a US hospital for capacity.  Michael writes that paragraph as if it was mere luck that an NICU bed happened to be open in the US, but that’s a function of the system, and not luck.  These parents are separated from their child at the moment through the fault of Canada’s government and not the US.

It’s a good lesson for both Americans and Canadians as the administration and Congress attempt to push a systemic overhaul of the US health-care system that will cost trillions and push us towards the same kind of single-payer system that Canada has.  When we handle our health-care system like Canada, where will Canadians send the next NICU case they can’t handle?  And where will America send ours?

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Under Obamacare, why would you need a NICU bed when you are eager to give abortions on demand for whatever reason?

moonsbreath on June 28, 2009 at 12:33 PM

I presume this is some type of extraordinary care needed. Our emergency system would not, in any case, go to that length.

If you happen to stumble into the hospital, they would help if any help was possible. If not, you’d just be out of luck.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:20 PM

The baby IS receiving the needed care in our health care system. Follow the links. So, our system is going “to that length.”

You, the MSM and the Obama administration are not addressing key issue here: that a national health care service run by a highly developed and wealthy nation is less effective than our supposedly broken system. Instead of addressing this issue, there are attempts to rationalize this issue away or to bury it. And if we get Obamacare here, that’s exactly what is going to happen to babies like this one. They’ll get buried.

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 12:34 PM

a capella on June 28, 2009 at 12:31 PM

Exactly.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 12:35 PM

Revering the private medical sector, particularly the insurance industry, simply strikes me as truly moronic. This is a lobbyist rip-off going on. They have to keep the profits rolling in, and they will do anything to scare people to death and make sure that keeps happening.

Heaven forbid we actually pay realistic costs for medical care. No, a broken leg SHOULD cost the system 80 grand plus. Right? *rolling my eyes*

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:35 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:32 PM

Best argument you’ve made yet. Did prohibition stop alcohol consumption?

HoustonRight on June 28, 2009 at 12:35 PM

The little girl getting the medical treatment she needs is testament to our health care system, denying the little girls parents visitation is a shame. God bless all you Canadians for speaking up about the shortfalls of socialized medical care.

fourdeucer on June 28, 2009 at 12:36 PM

And the medicare rip-offs? Just who is recommending that those 90 year olds receive a hip replacement?

Doctors, that’s who. Shame on them. That’s simply fraud by any other name.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:36 PM

Hmmmmmmm*….now, just who is so desperate for customers that they’ll write those scrips?

And just why do we give them this power?

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:32 PM

Overprescription is a serious problem, particularly for elderly patients, in Canada where we do have a single payer system. In fact, it might even be a bigger problem when doctors are scheduling a maximum of 5 minutes per patient because the number of patients is the major factor determining what their income is.

And who would you rather have writing your prescriptions for you? David Axelrod?

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 12:36 PM

I would imagine that I would have paid for two burial plots instead of enjoying a healthy, happy, carefree 12 year old boy with a loving mother.

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 12:23 PM

UPDATED:

Photo of Travis

http://cuial.com/travis_lily.jpg

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 12:37 PM

No doubt about it AnninCA is a paid astro-turfer. She makes no sense at all, just parrots talking points.

ctmom on June 28, 2009 at 12:37 PM

US CND
Infant Mortality/1000 live births 6.8 5.3

harry on June 28, 2009 at 12:28 PM

Oh, please! In the US, we try to save high risk pregnancies, in other countries, they allow them to miscarry and pretend their infant mortality is lower.

Blake on June 28, 2009 at 12:39 PM

ctmom on June 28, 2009 at 12:37 PM

this particular topic does seem to attract alot of comments from her every time it comes up.

Mord on June 28, 2009 at 12:39 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:32 PM

Even the MJ story is turning into…

an attempt to change the subject from the issues raised in this thread.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:33 PM

Ah, and then there are the surgical lies….

Truth in advertising anyone?

Will anyone please change the subject from why a single payer health care system in a wealthy, highly developed country cannot provide care to a baby from an urban area, but our “broken health care system” can?

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 12:40 PM

And the medicare rip-offs? Just who is recommending that those 90 year olds receive a hip replacement?

Doctors, that’s who. Shame on them. That’s simply fraud by any other name.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:36 PM

Hip replacement is also considered palliative care. Dr. Ann wants people to suffer in pain needlessly.

Blake on June 28, 2009 at 12:41 PM

And the medicare rip-offs? Just who is recommending that those 90 year olds receive a hip replacement?

Doctors, that’s who. Shame on them. That’s simply fraud by any other name.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:36 PM

You betcha. Better that Rahm make that decision based on whether that 90 year old is stilll a “productive unit.”

a capella on June 28, 2009 at 12:42 PM

Meanwhile, Grassley runs around trying to frame this as capitalism at its best. In Iowa, 70% of all insured are with ONE company?

Yeah, that competition is impressive, eh?

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:42 PM

If you think a hip replacement makes sense for someone in hospice, then you’re a bigger fool than I thought.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:43 PM

And who would you rather have writing your prescriptions for you? David Axelrod?

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 12:36 PM

Careful, or your prescription will be written by Janet Napolitano.

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 12:43 PM

US CND
Infant Mortality/1000 live births 6.8 5.3

harry on June 28, 2009 at 12:28 PM

Oh, please! In the US, we try to save high risk pregnancies, in other countries, they allow them to miscarry and pretend their infant mortality is lower.

Blake on June 28, 2009 at 12:39 PM

OR they just abort them outright. When you get government run healthcare you will get government produced stats. Obama will do whatever it takes to cover up the real facts.

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 12:43 PM

And the medicare rip-offs? Just who is recommending that those 90 year olds receive a hip replacement?

Doctors, that’s who. Shame on them. That’s simply fraud by any other name.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:36 PM

soooo… you would put my Mom into a walker, or bed, in pain? Rather than having her persuing Life, and Liberty?

Nice of you to make that choice, for others… to leave them in pain.

This calous attitude is exactly why I do NOT want others (government) making these decisions… because eventualy someone like YOU will be in charge.

Romeo13 on June 28, 2009 at 12:43 PM

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 12:40 PM

OK! How ’bout this heat. Someone’s going to get a heat stroke…..damn.. sorry!

HoustonRight on June 28, 2009 at 12:44 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:42 PM

I bet a lot of people are happy you are not their doctor.

fourdeucer on June 28, 2009 at 12:44 PM

That’s Obama’s Health Care proposal is simply fraud by any other name.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:36 PM

Back on topic.

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 12:45 PM

The reason, in my opinion, that healthcare is in such a muddle is because doctors have abused their power, abused the systems, given lousy advice, confused their patients, recommended unnecessary treatment to keep the money flowing in….and now, nobody trusts them.

Don’t catch that cancer fast enough? Lawsuit time.

They brought this on themselves.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:45 PM

harry on June 28, 2009 at 12:11 PM
Initially, perhaps, but getting the breakthrough into a usable form in large quantities still is done by the private sector. Timelines are the driving force in a commercial, for profit enterprise,..those are an alien concept at the university level. Without private enterprise carrying the ball, mass scale development will never happen.

a capella on June 28, 2009 at 12:31 PM

Abosolutely changing the subject. The original poster bemoaned the state of research under a “socialized system”. I pointed out that the majority of research carried out worldwide is government funded. The poster also tried to assert that the majority of medical breakthroughs were the result of Private American Research, this is not and has never been the case.

harry on June 28, 2009 at 12:45 PM

They could use some intervention, in short, by government. They are greedy, in many cases, and practicing bad medicine.

And I think you all know I’m right.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:46 PM

In Iowa, 70% of all insured are with ONE company

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:43 PM

Yeah, right. Link, please.

KS Rex on June 28, 2009 at 12:46 PM

And the medicare rip-offs? Just who is recommending that those 90 year olds receive a hip replacement?

Doctors, that’s who. Shame on them. That’s simply fraud by any other name.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:36 PM

You betcha. Better that Rahm make that decision based on whether that 90 year old is stilll a “productive unit.”

a capella on June 28, 2009 at 12:42 PM

My mother just passed away last month. She had pulmony fibrosis. In some cases a lung transplant will give another few years of life. My mother was 69.
The cut off in MediCare was 65. She was only 66 when diagonosed. But they denied her. The last 6 months was tough. She fought like hell but died with dignity and care in a great hospital with a caring staff.

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 12:46 PM

I didn’t pay attention, really, to the actual location. I presume this is some type of extraordinary care needed. Our emergency system would not, in any case, go to that length.

If you happen to stumble into the hospital, they would help if any help was possible. If not, you’d just be out of luck.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:20 PM

What the hell are you talking about? Of course, our emergency system goes to that length. Are you nuts? US patients are transferred to university health care centers whether they have a dime to their name or not.

Blake on June 28, 2009 at 12:47 PM

Meanwhile, Grassley runs around trying to frame this as capitalism at its best. In Iowa, 70% of all insured are with ONE company?

Yeah, that competition is impressive, eh?

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:42 PM

so 300 million insured under oboobi care is a better option? thanks but no thanks….

SHARPTOOTH on June 28, 2009 at 12:48 PM

The poster also tried to assert that the majority of medical breakthroughs were the result of Private American Research, this is not and has never been the case.

harry on June 28, 2009 at 12:45 PM

That is not what I said. Do you have problems with reading comprehension. Do you understand the difference between “Private American Research” and ‘targeted at the American health care industry”? If you had a brain, my question to you about European drug companies only developing drugs for the American market market should have clued you in.

progressoverpeace on June 28, 2009 at 12:48 PM

Oh, and did you read the latest on our wonderful system and the rate of mistakes made in hospitals?

It’s outrageous. Go to the hospital ONLY if you’re dying, because they are likely to kill you.

When a national doctor tells a national audience that you better use a magic marker to alert your “oh so special doctor you all trust so much” to which side your surgery needs to address?

Then, those of you who fancy you’re getting such individualized care are clearly not on the same page as reality.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:48 PM

I bet a lot of people are happy you are not their doctor.

fourdeucer on June 28, 2009 at 12:44 PM

Ann is apparently into health care rationing, but she is being coy about telling us whio should make those decisions for us.

a capella on June 28, 2009 at 12:48 PM

Breaking: Billy May’s found dead!

FontanaConservative on June 28, 2009 at 12:50 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:43 PM
Interesting how you are forced to keep adding hypotheticals to prove what is already a specious point. Hospice, in case you didn’t know, is for all ages. It’s mission is to make the dying more comfortable no matter the age. Your 90 year old could have another dozen years. Give her the hip replacement I say.

jeanie on June 28, 2009 at 12:50 PM

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 12:46 PM

I’m sorry for you and your mother. Would this also have something to do with the shortage of lungs for a transplant? I know a married couple who met when both their spouses we in the hospital at Stanford waiting for lung transplants. One died before receiving it and the other died afterwards of complications. Both were in their mid 20s.

Blake on June 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM

If you think a hip replacement makes sense for someone in hospice, then you’re a bigger fool than I thought.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:43 PM

Excuse me, aren’t you in a state that taxes people to pay for sex-change surgeries for someone in a prison?

Marcus on June 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Revering the private medical sector, particularly the insurance industry, simply strikes me as truly moronic. This is a lobbyist rip-off going on. They have to keep the profits rolling in, and they will do anything to scare people to death and make sure that keeps happening.

Heaven forbid we actually pay realistic costs for medical care. No, a broken leg SHOULD cost the system 80 grand plus. Right? *rolling my eyes*

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:35 PM

If you think a single payer system will mean that doctors don’t do everything they can to maximize their incomes, you are as naive as your president.

Radiologists are a good example. In Canada, wait times for radiation therapy for cancer are unacceptably long. You know why? Because radiologists are paid very handsomely and as a consequence we don’t have nearly as many of them as the population’s health care needs require.

You cannot realistically expect people to spend 8 years in university, amassing enormous debt, and then 2-6 years as residents during which they are paid a pittance, to work for barely enough to keep the practice running. Family care doctors are a good example of this. Doctors will cram more patients into a day than they should if they billed by the visit. This happens routintely. Some years ago, Ontario started to experiment with another method: primary care doctors are paid a set sum/year for each patient they care for in their practice. Nowadays, if you want to ‘sign on’ with a physician, the doctor interviews you. They want to screen out the patients who are more trouble and work so that they can take more patients on and maximize their incomes. About 30 percent of Canadians can’t find a primary care physician because not enough people think that the income is worth it.

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Most if not all medical advances originate at the University level. These “breakthroughs” are usually government funded. The big Pharms do little but create “me-too” drugs and act as patent factories.

Could you site this please? I own a company that uses university researchers all the time. We pay for it, not the government. In fact many universities try to avoid government funding in technology because it restricts who you can license the technology to. Many companies pay for research departments in universities such as IBM, Honeywell, and some Japanese companies giving hundreds of millions of dollars to Albany Nanotech, a research branch of SUNY Albany. Yes there are tax advantages to be had, but private companies are doing most of the funding. Universities, like many businesses, don’t like taking money from the government because of the many strings attached – the last place you bring any useful technology is to the government as they will restrict the use if there are any military or national security uses.

Besides, I doubt that the government is funding the $800,000,000+ it takes to get a medication from research to the market. That’s just plain silly to assert something like that without backing it up with hard evidence.

The world libves on breakthroughs at Universities in Israel, England, France and a whole host of other countries.

What breakthroughs? Are you making this up out of thin air? It’s easy to do patent searches.

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM

What the hell are you talking about? Of course, our emergency system goes to that length. Are you nuts? US patients are transferred to university health care centers whether they have a dime to their name or not.

Only if another system is involved, such as fire, etc. Last year, in LA, a woman died in the ER room. Couldn’t get anyone to even do intake. We regularly have to sue hospitals to STOP dumping patients on the sidewalks in front of the homeless shelters. The people are unable to walk, even talk, half the time.

No, the stories of heroic rescues nearly all involve some other agency being involved. You just show up, you take what’s availble at the county hospitals.

Private hospitals are supposed to treat you. But they usually send patients on. If they die in transit, oh well.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:48 PM

Ann, you have not rebutted the HA posters who are from Canada and can tell us precisely how socialized medicine works in real life. Would you please do that?

a capella on June 28, 2009 at 12:52 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:48 PM

I agree. I think next time you need care you ought to head south to mexico for treatment. Or, better yet you could move to Canada. Better do it quick so you can get on the list.

HoustonRight on June 28, 2009 at 12:52 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:48 PM

if you think the system will all be fixed by nationalizing it you out of your friggin mind…..

SHARPTOOTH on June 28, 2009 at 12:52 PM

Ann also lives in a state where illegals have forced the closures of hospitals. Funny she doesn’t mention that part of the healthcare problem.

moonsbreath on June 28, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Abosolutely changing the subject. The original poster bemoaned the state of research under a “socialized system”. I pointed out that the majority of research carried out worldwide is government funded. The poster also tried to assert that the majority of medical breakthroughs were the result of Private American Research, this is not and has never been the case.

harry on June 28, 2009 at 12:45 PM

This statement confirms that you do not have any experience dealing with university research departments and you are talking out of your ass..

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 12:54 PM

If you think a hip replacement makes sense for someone in hospice, then you’re a bigger fool than I thought.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:43 PM

But you are as big of a fool as I thought. Now, I know you are dishonest, too, because you will move the goal posts in order to win an argument on the internet. Idiot.

Blake on June 28, 2009 at 12:55 PM

You just show up, you take what’s availble at the county hospitals.

Private hospitals are supposed to treat you. But they usually send patients on. If they die in transit, oh well.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Thanks Ann you just made the case against government healthcare. “at a county hospital you take what you get”

Darn skippy

HoustonRight on June 28, 2009 at 12:55 PM

moonsbreath on June 28, 2009 at 12:53 PM

cause there her dear friends…just ask her…

SHARPTOOTH on June 28, 2009 at 12:55 PM

You cannot realistically expect people to spend 8 years in university, amassing enormous debt, and then 2-6 years as residents during which they are paid a pittance, to work for barely enough to keep the practice running. Family care doctors are a good example of this. Doctors will cram more patients into a day than they should if they billed by the visit. This happens routintely. Some years ago, Ontario started to experiment with another method: primary care doctors are paid a set sum/year for each patient they care for in their practice. Nowadays, if you want to ’sign on’ with a physician, the doctor interviews you. They want to screen out the patients who are more trouble and work so that they can take more patients on and maximize their incomes. About 30 percent of Canadians can’t find a primary care physician because not enough people think that the income is worth it.

Oh, I’ll really make YOU nuts. :)

I think half of what is now only done by doctors? Let a nurse practicioner take care of it.

I agree with you that the medical school system is broken. I read that nobody is even bothering with becoming GP. No money in it, and besides, nobody wants to hear what their GP has to say.

For about 80% of our lives, all we need is someone who can deliver a baby and give us a prescription when we’re knocked down by flu. That last leg in life is generally where most of us need more attention. And even then, I’d guess a lot of stuff could be charted, predicted, and easily handled with a systematic approach.

Isn’t anyone but me a bit tired of hearing that we’ve all somehow developed rare illnesses, or that all of our kids are now autistic?

I am.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:55 PM

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 12:46 PM
Yes. Rationing already exists unfortunately and organ transplants fall into that category. To be strictly fair though, organ tranplants are rationed no matter the age. I do not fully understand it, but there is some system out there that decides who should or should not get one and age is not the only consideration. Money talks though, the wealthy can buy their own.

jeanie on June 28, 2009 at 12:56 PM

No, the stories of heroic rescues nearly all involve some other agency being involved. You just show up, you take what’s availble at the county hospitals.

but the county hospitals are government run, they should do a wonderful job at treating people – what are you saying???

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 12:56 PM

Private hospitals are supposed to treat you. But they usually send patients on. If they die in transit, oh well.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Liar. You know nothing of the law.

Marcus on June 28, 2009 at 12:56 PM

Ann also lives in a state where illegals have forced the closures of hospitals. Funny she doesn’t mention that part of the healthcare problem.

moonsbreath on June 28, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Bingo.

Ann, move to Canada then. There a plenty of bars to tend there.

bluelightbrigade on June 28, 2009 at 12:57 PM

My mother just passed away last month.
izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 12:46 PM

My condolences, iguy.

ProfessorMiao on June 28, 2009 at 12:57 PM

Ann also lives in a state where illegals have forced the closures of hospitals. Funny she doesn’t mention that part of the healthcare problem.

That’s the simple answer. We’ve lost 7 hospitals in 5 years. Better not need emergency care in LA unless you have time to get to one of the remaining hospitals which won’t kill you.

BUT….we have other issues, such as paying family members for taking care of their own. Yep, we pay wives to take care of their husbands here. *arrrgggghhhhh

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Canada and other countries skew their stats by not counting births below a certain weight as live births. Less live births = decrease in infant mortality.

http://tinyurl.com/mub2rq

Blake on June 28, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Private hospitals are supposed to treat you. But they usually send patients on. If they die in transit, oh well.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Hippocratic Oath.

The only reason’s hospitals pass folks on is if they don’t have the capacity, a la Chicago during the heat wave in the 90′s.

bluelightbrigade on June 28, 2009 at 12:58 PM

If you think a hip replacement makes sense for someone in hospice, then you’re a bigger fool than I thought.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:43 PM

This statement shows your basic ignorance.

The Hospice contract forbids any surgery.

Romeo13 on June 28, 2009 at 12:59 PM

“Thankfully — and this doesn’t mean that the American system is better (after all, at least the couple and their baby are guaranteed care up here, …”

Point me to a case where a gravely ill premature baby here in the US didn’t get the care he needed.

Yeah, right. Didn’t think so. They like to make the accusation but they can’t back it up.

And, BTW, when we get the system you have, where you gonna send the baby? Yeah, thought so — the cemetery.

Michael Sticklings thinks Canada’s freeloading on the American health system because Canada’s public health system can’t provide what Canadians need, makes their’s better.

Assistant Editor in Health? LMAO! More like Assistant Editor in Jackassery.

Dusty on June 28, 2009 at 12:59 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Point?

bluelightbrigade on June 28, 2009 at 12:59 PM

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 12:46 PM

I’m sorry for you and your mother. Would this also have something to do with the shortage of lungs for a transplant? I know a married couple who met when both their spouses we in the hospital at Stanford waiting for lung transplants. One died before receiving it and the other died afterwards of complications. Both were in their mid 20s.

Blake on June 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM

That did play into some of the decision. But MediCare said flat out NO.
My Dad did check into going private but the cost was well over $100,000
and my Mom did not want to be such a financial burden for the chance at few extra years. But the idea of a beaucrat deciding if you live or die is not a very appealing one.

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 12:59 PM

Meanwhile, you guys think you’re talking about socialized medicine. Really? You’re seeing the demise of this fine government by lobbyists, money, and the power of the almighty dollar.

It’s sickening to watch.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:00 PM

The Hospice contract forbids any surgery.

Sorry, I got excited and used the term too loosely.

My mother told me when she was in assisted care to NOT let the doctors use her. She saw the truth. It scared her.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:01 PM

izoneguy on June 28, 2009 at 12:46 PM

I too am sorry to hear of your mom’s death. Medicare and Medicad are a rip-off.

moonsbreath on June 28, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Got to love it. Ann has no background in health care beyond the fact that she is a “Kaiser baby” but considers herself an expert.

We’re debating a crazy woman.

Blake on June 28, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Meanwhile, you guys think you’re talking about socialized medicine. Really? You’re seeing the demise of this fine government by lobbyists, money, and the power of the almighty dollar.

It’s sickening to watch.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:00 PM

BLB Axiom #69: Anytime someone uses the phrase “the almighty dollar”, it’s a dead give-away that they are a liberal (read “socialist”).

bluelightbrigade on June 28, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Canada and other countries skew their stats by not counting births below a certain weight as live births. Less live births = decrease in infant mortality.

http://tinyurl.com/mub2rq

Blake on June 28, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Yup, I posted another article above stating the same thing.

Here’s a great website from the ministry of health in Ontario about finding the shortest wait times for procedures:

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transformation/wait_times/public/wt_public_mn.html#

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 1:02 PM

Liar. You know nothing of the law.

You’re naive. It’s up to an intake nurse to determine whether the doctor should even be bothered to come see if you’re truly going to die.

Who is going to be left to sue later?

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:02 PM

BTW Ann, I see students flooding the medical schools once the government takes control.

HoustonRight on June 28, 2009 at 1:03 PM

What exactly is AnninCAs angle here?I admit I’m not a frequent poster here, but it seems she? really has it in for our health care system.Has all these studies to back up her love for a take-over of our health care.Makes bad guys of drug makers, insurance companies, hospitals etc.The only hero in her world is the Government.

sandee on June 28, 2009 at 1:03 PM

I am liberal….on this issue, in particular.

VERY liberal. MORE liberal that moderate Dems, who are ticking me off.

If we want to sing Kumbayah, let’s talk about EFCA. I bet we agree on that one.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:04 PM

There’s another side to the hip replacement argument and it’s this. This poor 90 year old could be otherwise healthy and live 15 more years in a nursing home(because she cannot walk due to her hip).This would cost 10 times or more what the hip replacement would have. Given that argument, can I now expect Ann to be contemplating the euthanasia solution?

jeanie on June 28, 2009 at 1:04 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:00 PM

Is this the same fine government you want making healthcare decisions. You cannot have it both ways.

HoustonRight on June 28, 2009 at 1:05 PM

If you think a hip replacement makes sense for someone in hospice, then you’re a bigger fool than I thought.

AnnInCA, thank you so much for being so plain and direct about this – you want to ration health care costs and think it is “foolish” to give some one a hip replacement because they are already in bad shape. You therefore agree that this old person deserves to basically die in pain. I am surprised that you did not recommend euthanasia – it would be much more humane than letting a person die in pain.

It is amazing that people who go out of their way to make sure that terrorists get their “due process” would so callously dismiss the prospects of health care to their own senior citizens.

But it is definitely an eye opener when you have a woman from a liberal state like California say such things so openly – the main push for Government care has NOTHING to do with better health care – its main reason to is bring down the cost of the medical bills of those people who are young or middle aged and want to pay as less as they possibly can – there fore, the people who previously were “suffering” in the inefficient health care system will suffer a worse fate in a Govt run system.

OTOH, people like AnninCa will see their medical costs reduced at the expense of other tax payers – she would nt care a damn about the grannie who needs a hip replacement surgery – after all that would be foolish.

Thank you Ann from California for your bluntless.

nagee76 on June 28, 2009 at 1:05 PM

Liar. You know nothing of the law.

You’re naive. It’s up to an intake nurse to determine whether the doctor should even be bothered to come see if you’re truly going to die.

Who is going to be left to sue later?

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:02 PM

You are full of s**t. I’m on my way to deliver a 4th baby to a 21 year old drop-in with no pre-natal care. Out the door in 2 minutes in fact. Just putting on my shoes. Care to come?

Marcus on June 28, 2009 at 1:05 PM

You’re naive. It’s up to an intake nurse to determine whether the doctor should even be bothered to come see if you’re truly going to die.

Who is going to be left to sue later?

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:02 PM

My mother died in hospice care last year and that is not the experience we had at all. The Dr was in to see her EVERYDAY even though she was heavily medicated and not lucid. He was on the phone to those of us who were still in other states and talked to us personally when we were there. No nurse prevented him from seeing her.

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 1:06 PM

We’re debating a crazy woman.

Blake on June 28, 2009 at 1:01 PM
You’re right. We really need to stop.

jeanie on June 28, 2009 at 1:06 PM

The reason, in my opinion, that healthcare is in such a muddle is because doctors have abused their power, abused the systems… nobody trusts them.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:45 PM

So, let’s turn health care decisions over to politicians and government bureaucrats because we all know they never abuse their power or abuse the systems of government, and we all trust them, on our bended knees.

Loxodonta on June 28, 2009 at 1:06 PM

You’re seeing the demise of this fine government by lobbyists, money, and the power of the almighty dollar.

It’s sickening to watch.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:00 PM

Actually, the “almighty dollar” isn’t worth much anymore. As far as seeing the demise of this fine government by lobbyists and money, I agree, Obama is ruining this country.

moonsbreath on June 28, 2009 at 1:06 PM

The Hospice contract forbids any surgery.

Romeo13 on June 28, 2009 at 12:59 PM
Actually hospice forbids any outside treatment beyond their care. If you are under hospice care and you even call 911 it cancels their contract.

fourdeucer on June 28, 2009 at 1:08 PM

You’re getting rationed care now and just don’t realize it.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:08 PM

I am liberal….on this issue, in particular.

VERY liberal. MORE liberal that moderate Dems, who are ticking me off.

If we want to sing Kumbayah, let’s talk about EFCA. I bet we agree on that one.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:04 PM

Why are you here, again?

bluelightbrigade on June 28, 2009 at 1:09 PM

Hold up here folks. Ann is reveling in all this attention.
Do we really want to feed her damaged ego? No. I quit.

jeanie on June 28, 2009 at 1:09 PM

We’re debating a crazy woman.

Done with debate, and onto ad hominem.

That’s easier, for sure.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:09 PM

The facts have never mattered in the Health care debate. If every person in Canada came here they would see it as proof positive that we need to have governmental health care to handle the Canadians.

patrick neid on June 28, 2009 at 1:09 PM

You’re getting rationed care now and just don’t realize it.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:08 PM

No. I’m not. And that’s the point.

bluelightbrigade on June 28, 2009 at 1:10 PM

Maybe some of you need to hear why healthcare reform is wanted by people. One poll…72%. Another poll….76%.

Perhaps you need to at least LISTEN to a differing perspective.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:10 PM

You’re getting rationed care now and just don’t realize it.

[AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:08 PM]

You are starting to sound like a nut.

Dusty on June 28, 2009 at 1:11 PM

You’re getting rationed care now and just don’t realize it.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:08 PM

Ahh the old False Consciousness fallacy rears it’s ugly head. AnninCA is much wiser than you plebs and has figured it all out while you sheep are blindly led to the slaughter house by your insurance company masters.

Ann NY on June 28, 2009 at 1:12 PM

Done with debate, and onto ad hominem.

That’s easier, for sure.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:09 PM

It’s a waste of our time to argue with a fool, Ann.

Go ahead, throw out the “Ad Hominem” yellow card, though.

We still have your number: Feelings.

I’ll see you in another thread.

bluelightbrigade on June 28, 2009 at 1:12 PM

Ann I’m only speaking for myself, but go away. Enough with your polls. You’re a one note wonder.Some debate…..

sandee on June 28, 2009 at 1:12 PM

AnnInCA, thank you so much for being so plain and direct about this – you want to ration health care costs and think it is “foolish” to give some one a hip replacement because they are already in bad shape. You therefore agree that this old person deserves to basically die in pain. I am surprised that you did not recommend euthanasia – it would be much more humane than letting a person die in pain.

I’d like to see commonsense. When the solution is worse than the problem, THINK!

The purpose should be to be realistic, keep people comfortable as possible, and none of us are going to live forever. Medical practices that pretend that there’s no end to life don’t help the patient. They may make the family feel better, but not the actual person suffering.

And too often, the real motive is greed.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:13 PM

I think half of what is now only done by doctors? Let a nurse practicioner take care of it.

No thanks.

I agree with you that the medical school system is broken. I read that nobody is even bothering with becoming GP. No money in it, and besides, nobody wants to hear what their GP has to say.

No, the reason GPs are a dying breed is Medicare.

For about 80% of our lives, all we need is someone who can deliver a baby and give us a prescription when we’re knocked down by flu.

Pollyanna. My wife went through breast cancer therpay. Had superb care all the way through. 54 years old.

That last leg in life is generally where most of us need more attention. And even then, I’d guess a lot of stuff could be charted, predicted, and easily handled with a systematic approach.

Sounds glib. What exactly does this charting, predicting, easily handling, and systematic approach actually mean? No person is an individual? Examples?

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:55 PM

a capella on June 28, 2009 at 1:13 PM

Meanwhile, our overall health report card is what….37th in the world?

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:28 PM

No, our health care is #1 in the world.

You are astonishingly gullible. It terrifies me that your mindset is representative of the mentality that is deciding this issue for the nation.

And you call us ignorant?

jeff_from_mpls on June 28, 2009 at 1:13 PM

Maybe some of you need to hear why healthcare reform is wanted by people. One poll…72%. Another poll….76%.

Perhaps you need to at least LISTEN to a differing perspective.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:10 PM

Links?

Romeo13 on June 28, 2009 at 1:14 PM

Ann I’m only speaking for myself, but go away

No, not today. Sorry.

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:14 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 12:55 PM

For someone who spends a lot of time on the healthcare threads, you sure do contribute a very low level of content for the volume of your posts.

You “didn’t pay attention” to the location of the story, then “guess a lot of stuff could be charted, predicted, and easily handled with a systematic approach.”

You are correct that much care is relatively routine, NPs can handle a lot of basic care, etc. Those specialized issues (targeting just the right chemo to knock out a lymphoma with minimal side effects, e.g.) take a high level of skill and experience, and deserve a profit effective enough to justify the training and preparation for excellence.

Directly on the topic of this thread, we actually have an excess of NICU beds in some areas in this country in my experience, and part of the reason our infant mortality rates are so high is that many places will make extraordinary efforts to save a 23-24 week infant (ECMO, etc.) that would simply die elsewhere.

There are apparently multiple commenters here with direct healthcare experience. Maybe you should give their insight some weight, rather than assuming that your less informed position is correct.

cs89 on June 28, 2009 at 1:14 PM

AnninCA on June 28, 2009 at 1:10 PM

Those polls have been debunked here already. Get a new one.

ladyingray on June 28, 2009 at 1:15 PM

This is one of the most glaring examples of denial/redefining I’ve ever seen.

“At least the couple and their baby are guaranteed care up here, even if it’s not perfect. Of course, they couldn’t GET care up here. Care is guaranteed, except that care is not guaranteed”

The left is engaging in this sort of counter-logic to an incredible degree in our country as well. It’s like they hold up a donut and say, “See this donut? This is not a donut.”

Alana on June 28, 2009 at 1:15 PM

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