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Have a Great Day

Subsunk

dpierson on June 26, 2009 at 5:04 PM

Well lets see, what did all those wars we won before we had an Air Corp/Air Force have in common? Could it be that neither side had airplanes?

My point was this – each of the three Departments of Defense, i.e., Army, Navy, and Air Force, have their roles in the defense of the nation. One cannot do the job alone.

Grow up or wise up.

Got to cut the grass.

Subsunk –
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{+_+}

As for straight demographics, around 2000 the recruits came from the period when births fell to 2.7 millionish. Now though recruits are coming from birth cohorts of 4 millionish. In about 10 years they will be coming from 4.3 millionish.

The question as I already mentioned is whether we are willing to pay the price to attract enough recruits for a given number of soldiers at a given recruitment standard. It’s not a question of whether we have enough manpower (at least not until we get to much larger numbers).

I never claimed to have “fought” in the 80s or 90s, but neither did you. You undoubtedly were under great stress and pressure but you never actually fought – or is there some super secret war the navy fought with the Russians someone where actual bullet were flying? Didn’t think so.
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….I never said to take it from the Navy. My sub point is that if we can’t have unlimited budgets to give everyone everything they want then the Air Force needs to cough up some of their budget. …………

dpierson on June 26, 2009 at 6:13 PM

Then I guess you really don’t know what Men who came before your time did for the country. And I won’t be enlightening you either. There are several books in print about the things the Air Force and Navy did to confront the Soviets from the 50s thru the 80s. You should educate yourself someday. Not all warfighting involves shooting. There’s plenty to go bump in the night though. There is quite a bit of danger in being on the “pointy end of the spear”, I agree. It wasn’t the Army in the 1980s.

…. With the fact being that we have a limited military budget the apportionment needs to be redone to ensure that ground forces also get their slice of the pie and not just left over’s……
dpierson on June 26, 2009 at 4:24 PM

One can safely assume this comment and the previous one mean you think the Navy and Air Force need to give up money and give it to the Army. A fact which occurred in 2002 forward already. Feel free to look it up. The Army gets everything (almost) that it asked for from 2002 to 2008. If you didn’t get it, you didn’t ask hard enough. If Dragon Skin is so much better, then why can’t you get the Army to use it instead of Interceptor? Feel free to use your vast experience to get the brass to change their mind. I’m sure a couple of billion dollars would change out every single vest in the inventory and you’d be a hero instead of a grouch. A pittance from the Porkulus. Your Congressman would love to make that name for himself, I’m sure.

And my primary point is, and still remains, as the common points of this entire thread also suggest, is that we should be able to afford it all if we are going to waste our money on crap that won’t create jobs or fund better health care anyway. Why do you insist on missing that salient point of the entire discussion? I agree that if budgets must be tight, then the pain must be felt by the services not under fire to give the Army and Marine Corps the upper hand. And they have been given that. Compare the budgets percentagewise from the 90s with the 2000s to confirm it.

You go out and compare whatever body parts you want. You started this with your condescending attitude. I generally don’t start fights but I don’t ever back down from one either.
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dpierson on June 26, 2009 at 6:13 PM

I started it when I saw someone who insisted on disparaging the Air Force and their requirements in favor of his own service. When you started pissing in somebody else’s cornflakes, you better be ready to take it when they defend themselves, or somebody calls you on the facts. The fact you got upset at being called out for what you said that is incorrect or you cannot prove against other facts discussed here and at Blackfive just means you don’t have the military’s best interests at heart, only the Army’s. You respect no one’s experience more than your own. And you have no respect for their work or their mission either.

I admire someone who feels pride in his service and pride in his profession. But you ain’t just in the Army, kid. You belong to the Armed Forces of the United States. Demeaning the service of others who served before your time, and under circumstances you cannot possibly know of, is like claiming Iraq is a hundred times more dangerous than Omaha Beach. That’s stupid, and inaccurate. Just because you happen to be getting shot at right now (and you likely aren’t any more, I might add, since things have quieted down so much in Iraq, and our enemies are getting their asses handed to them in Afghanistan and Pakistan now) garners you only the benefit of first dibs on whatever you need most from the motor pool and the chow line. But the rest of the Forces have basic and non negotiable needs also. My sailors are back to living 12-16 hr non-duty days with no time off as well. On duty days they are already 24 hrs a day on the ship, and in the Submarine Force that means you only get one or two out of every four days off your entire tour on the ship. Over 50% of your entire waking Life and your kids’ lives are spent doing work for the US of A. That hasn’t happened since Jimmy Carter screwed up the military so badly there were riots on ships trying to get underway, and drug problems were rampant. We robbed ships in port just to get deployed vessels underway fully manned all. the. time…..

So give it a rest when you claim honored or aggrieved status at the head of the line. Real heroes don’t ask for favors. They earn them. And defending any Man in uniform is my goal in Life. But I won’t zip it when I hear something I am sure is wrong also, even if it comes from someone on the front lines.

Now you do what you have to do. And think what you want to about my service. I don’t need your approval. I did my duty. No one expected less of me. And the country got more than they paid for. You can quote me on that. And that is me not backing down. Son.

Subsunk

Brian1972 on June 26, 2009 at 3:05 PM

The Cope India joint exercises are a gaming team building venue and not a no holds bared demonstration of capability. The strike scenarios depict regional threats where role-play is used to hone tactics and skills. Rest assured, we can penetrate and violate anyone’s airspace with relative impunity. (hint: the B2 is the ultimate wild weasle)

Gentlemen, how about we make it a budgetary priority to provide the best for all branches of our military and severely limit the rest of the federal government. Agreed?

DarkCurrent on June 26, 2009 at 5:40 PM

My point exactly. Perhaps I need an English refresher course. You say it so succintly.

LOL.

Subsunk

You are a patronizing a$$. If you really think that you were “fighting” for your country sitting on your butt in a tube of metal then you are a bigger fool than you already are making yourself out to be. Did you get all your facts from watching movies, how do you know how close CAS is called in, you were neither in Vietnam, Korea, or anywhere else calling in CAS you were sitting on your ass somewhere talking tough. Using B52’s to clear the way for the Apache’s – great idea. Hope you applied a little more brain when you were in the sub. I am sure you hope for the return of the good old time when you were sitting on you’re a$$ in uniform rather than just sitting on you’re a$$ in front of a computer. Have you ever worn any body armor (other than on your a$$), no, so you would know that it is not the best that money can buy regardless what the Army brass says. The reason CAS gets called at all is because often times artillery is not available because the battery troops are manning checkpoint someone because there are not enough troops to do all the jobs we have to do on the ground.
You speak with strong convictions but without any practical knowledge to back it up – keep wielding the keyboard as your only weapon impressing the masses.

dpierson on June 26, 2009 at 5:25 PM

Yes, I am a patronizing ass. You so clearly know better than your superiors in the Army that you question their decisions to give you any body armor at all (since Iraq was the first war we fought with real body armor for ground pounders, I’m feeling pretty good that you got better than what you had before. VietNam our guys had flak vests which were not anywhere near designed for real body armor, but it was better than nothing, and yours was better than the Iraqis had.)

While I was “sitting on my butt”, doing my duty, I guess you were silently storming into some Soviet installations and blowing stuff up, eh? Nice work. Never heard a thing about it…. And you never heard a thing about my comrades either. Let’s keep it that way.

The only practical points I am making to you, which you continue to miss, is that your argument is the Army doesn’t have enough and the Navy needs to give it up. The point of this thread was, if we have enough to spend 2 Trillion dollars on a waste of the country’s money, why the Hell can’t we both have what we need? But since you are still too pissed off to understand that point, I’ll have to leave you with this. I did my duty. You did yours. The fact that you didn’t get shot in the 80s and 90s is partially because I did my duty. The fact that I don’t have to worry about getting blown up at home is partially (and only partially) because you did your duty. I’m glad you know so damned much about the Army. But you clearly don’t know jack about the Air Force. So until you are a Colonel in the Air Force in charge of requirements, I’d shut up and let the guy who gets paid (a pittance, I agree) to do that job.

Otherwise, you are just as big an insufferable ass as I am. Only my ass is bigger, so I outrank you. (And since we are comparing asses and penises, child, my Dad had a saying that fits here. Never get in a pissing contest with a skunk. His is always bigger).

Now go play in the yard, boy. You bother me. You sound like an IVAW wannabe.

Subsunk

dpierson on June 26, 2009 at 5:25 PM

Subsunk on June 26, 2009 at 5:27 PM

Gentlemen, how about we make it a budgetary priority to provide the best for all branches of our military and severely limit the rest of the federal government. Agreed?

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Subsunk

Subsunk on June 26, 2009 at 5:08 PM

You are a patronizing a$$. If you really think that you were “fighting” for your country sitting on your butt in a tube of metal then you are a bigger fool than you already are making yourself out to be. Did you get all your facts from watching movies, how do you know how close CAS is called in, you were neither in Vietnam, Korea, or anywhere else calling in CAS you were sitting on your ass somewhere talking tough. Using B52’s to clear the way for the Apache’s – great idea. Hope you applied a little more brain when you were in the sub. I am sure you hope for the return of the good old time when you were sitting on you’re a$$ in uniform rather than just sitting on you’re a$$ in front of a computer. Have you ever worn any body armor (other than on your a$$), no, so you would know that it is not the best that money can buy regardless what the Army brass says. The reason CAS gets called at all is because often times artillery is not available because the battery troops are manning checkpoint someone because there are not enough troops to do all the jobs we have to do on the ground.
You speak with strong convictions but without any practical knowledge to back it up – keep wielding the keyboard as your only weapon impressing the masses.

I guess all those wars won before the airplane were just a fluke then?

dpierson on June 26, 2009 at 5:04 PM

Can’t argue with genius

I can’t believe you pulled out the “son”. LOL. And BTW – A10s are Air Force not Army.
I agree we need everything we can, BUT we spend too much money on the air force and navy and not enough on the army and the marines. Especially the Marines as you should full well know as a navy guy. That gets soldiers killed.
But CAS is really only something that the marines use well because they train with their air all the time. There are severe restrictions on when it can be used safely. Most of the fratricide in the invasion of Iraq was from CAS. When the enemy is 100 meter away you can’t call in CAS. If they are 2 miles away you have to have eyes on to bring them in otherwise they never hit their target. So having lots of air available does you no good if the conditions are generally unfavorable for its use.
With the fact being that we have a limited military budget the apportionment needs to be redone to ensure that ground forces also get their slice of the pie and not just left over’s. There is no multibillion dollar contract to be had producing better boots for the troops and that’s why there is no congressman fighting to make it happen. That is sad to me and seeing my friends die because of it makes me angry. If we had decent body armor we can save lives now – having another F22 parking at home does nothing for me.

dpierson on June 26, 2009 at 4:24 PM

If we had decent body armor……

Where do you suppose there is better body armor to be had, boy???? Are you claiming every single person in Iraq on and off the FOB has insufficient body armor for his purposes? Pray tell, where is BETTER body armor to be found? In China? In France?? In Zimbabwe??? The Army currently claims it has the best body armor available in any military in the world. Any claims to the contrary, and you must have some “Dragon Skin” stock in your portfolio.

As for hitting targets 2 miles away requiring “eyes on”, it ain’t CLOSE air support if its 2 miles away, boy. And a miss is better than not hitting it at all, as long as there is no collateral damage. If you need it and you can’t get away without it, I’m pretty sure a lot of folks have called in CAS, whether it be F-4s in VietNam, Cobras in Iraq, Apaches in Afghanistan, on insurgents as close as 100Ms if death is the sure result of not doing so. Danger close, hunker down. Many citations for bravery read exactly that way.

But it is good that you are so confident in your own invincibility, boy. You are also smart enough to recognize that those A-10s didn’t come from all those billions of bucks you want the Army to have. Because Lord knows, those 33 Apaches shot up by Saddam’s GROUND forces on the way to Baghdad, in one night engagement, causing the loss of two airframes, ending up with all 33 aircraft non mission ready for at least 48 hrs, and giving two POWs to Saddam for propaganda did such a bang up job for the Army that night, didn’t they? Sure could’ve used some carpet bombing from B-52s before sending in those Apaches, couldn’t they? Most of the fratricide you claim is so prevalent came from using the only big hammer at hand, aviation, because artillery and ground weapons had already been found to be insufficient to the task, or the Men on the ground wouldn’t have called for CAS, now would they?

And all those casualties your friends suffered because they didn’t have sufficient BOOTS just tears me up inside too. How many combat deaths have we had because a guys boots had holes in them?

I’ll agree that the Navy’s budget is bigger than the Army’s. Paying for those ships and planes is more expensive, I’ll agree, than paying for people and trucks and boots. But companies don’t build these things just to gouge the country and steal our money. They have to live here too. They provide a product we need, and it sure as Hell doesn’t require a billion dollars to provide boots for every swinging dick in the Army (for 600,000 pairs of boots that would be over $1600.00 per pair each year… I know you march on your feet, but have you ever heard the complaint about the $400 hammer or $600 toilet seats from DoD?), but it does require a billion dollars to build a submarine or a destroyer. The world is 3/4 ocean and you’d better make sure you can fight there too. And getting your HMMVWs and M1A2s to Kuwait took command of the high seas which doesn’t exist in the Pacific without the US Navy providing it.

So while I sympathize with you that you feel the Army is being robbed to keep the Navy and Air Force afloat, I have to ask why, in this land war intensive day, your Army leadership isn’t asking for more and getting more? The Navy and Air Force funding requests are sucking hind tit on this, boy. They are routinely denied. The Army and Marine requests are not denied nearly as often.

Perhaps it is because land warfare is a lower tech fight, and the investment is in people and lots of them, instead of one single submarine a year or 40 more planes a year.

Again, all you give a damn about is your service, and nothing about what anybody else does, although in 10 yrs, the Army may have NO wars to fight, and the Navy has all the work to do (as it did during the Cold War, when the Army trained and watched, and the Navy did the confrontations with the Soviets, out of sight and out of mind of the rest of the world). Budgets are about planning. Right now, you are executing the plan. If you don’t have enough, it is because your bosses didn’t ask for it. There’s the blame. I have watched the Navy shrink from almost 600 ships to 315 and still going down. We are constantly doing more with less, and numerous requirements of the Unified Commanders are unmet because there aren’t enough ships. But that is OK. We didn’t have enough money, so we downsized to give you boys in green what you needed. Now you want it all.

Try fighting the pirates in your water wings next time…. boy.

Until you stop being parochial and start thinking about what is best for your ENTIRE country, you’ll just be a kid to me.

Subsunk

Well know fact – You cannot win a war without occupying the ground. But you cannot control the ground without air support.

SPIFF1669 on June 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM

I guess all those wars won before the airplane were just a fluke then?

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Ha ha any Hogs or “R” branchers out there?

Agreed. We should have never cut the military after we won the cold war. The peace dividend was a mirage…
dpierson on June 26, 2009 at 1:44 PM

We should have never cut the military after we won WWII. Fixed

Blacklake on June 26, 2009 at 2:09 PM

Not to mention the aircraft carriers China is building for its newly minted blue water navy.

Now that’s what I call perspective.
Well done – thanks for the post – GREAT points you make.
jake-the-goose on June 26, 2009 at 1:27 PM

You are welcome.

When the next war begins you’d wish you’d have those and more than 10 measly overstretched Army combat divisions.
dpierson on June 26, 2009 at 1:24 PM

No kidding! But then the One et al are doing their best to make sure we’ll have less than 10 measly overstretched Army combat divisions.

Never mind. Have you done your biology homework?

Loxodonta on June 26, 2009 at 4:08 PM

Yes, all of it. and yours too.

Yakko77 on June 26, 2009 at 4:18 PM

Everyone’s service is appreciated but don’t use your prior military service as a hammer to smack down everyone else. I reacted to this in his post.

(Do you seriously imagine yourself a student of history and military affairs… and I don’t care which branch you served in, which theater, or how high your rank was… when you ignore commonly known military facts)
If I wanted someone with the intelligence and professionalism of a journalist to run my military, I’d hire Bozo the Clown instead.

We all have different viewpoints in this but all agree that we need more for the military – there is no need to get personal.

Subsunk on June 26, 2009 at 4:05 PM

I can’t believe you pulled out the “son”. LOL. And BTW – A10s are Air Force not Army.
I agree we need everything we can, BUT we spend too much money on the air force and navy and not enough on the army and the marines. Especially the Marines as you should full well know as a navy guy. That gets soldiers killed.
But CAS is really only something that the marines use well because they train with their air all the time. There are severe restrictions on when it can be used safely. Most of the fratricide in the invasion of Iraq was from CAS. When the enemy is 100 meter away you can’t call in CAS. If they are 2 miles away you have to have eyes on to bring them in otherwise they never hit their target. So having lots of air available does you no good if the conditions are generally unfavorable for its use.
With the fact being that we have a limited military budget the apportionment needs to be redone to ensure that ground forces also get their slice of the pie and not just left over’s. There is no multibillion dollar contract to be had producing better boots for the troops and that’s why there is no congressman fighting to make it happen. That is sad to me and seeing my friends die because of it makes me angry. If we had decent body armor we can save lives now – having another F22 parking at home does nothing for me.