ObamaCare: $4 trillion in costs

posted at 2:05 pm on June 25, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

We warned that the Democratic Party estimates of $1 trillion in costs for ObamaCare were far too low, and now Congress has had this confirmed.  In testimony before a House subcommittee on the health-care industry on Tuesday, Dr. Stephen Parente of the University of Minnesota gave the real numbers on the cost of ObamaCare.  It’s as bad as we predicted (via Yid with Lid):

There are two things people most want to know from these proposals. One, how many uninsured will be covered? Two, what will it cost the nation in one year and in ten years?

HSI estimates, like CBO’s recent results, find there is no free lunch to expand health insurance coverage. Our early assessment of the Senate Finance committee proposal shows a 74% reduction in the uninsured with a 10 year cost of [$]2.7 trillion using public option plan modeled after the Massachusetts Connector.  We also modeled an FEHBP version of the public plan and got a cost of over [$]1.3 trillion, but with a 30% reduction in the uninsured.

The $1 trillion number doesn’t even tickle the meter, and that’s a big problem for Democrats.  They argue that the reforms will save a trillion dollars, making ObamaCare deficit-neutral over ten years, but none of the plans come in under that price.  Just to move 30% net of the uninsured onto health plans will take more that $300 billion above that ceiling, making it an addition to an already astronomical deficit pattern.

To move most of the uninsured — net, again — onto health-insurance plans, it will take more than double the cheapest version of ObamaCare.  But that’s not the final word:

CBO scored the Kennedy Bill last week at approximately a 30% reduction for 1 trillion over ten years. Using the ARCOLA model, we found nearly everyone would be covered if all elements of the Kennedy bill were enacted at a ten year cost of 4 trillion. That 4 trillion estimate over 10 years assumes a public option plan with Bronze, Silver and Gold levels in the proposed insurance exchange with a subsidy for premium support that is income-adjusted and calibrated for assistance at the Silver level. The Silver level is equivalent of PPO plan with medium levels of generosity, something with 15% coinsurance rate, manageable copays and average level of access to physicians and hospitals. We accounted for the public plan being reimbursed at 10% above Medicare reimbursement, which is also 10% below commercial insurance premiums.

Let’s break that down carefully.  What exactly does $4 trillion and a public plan buy us, besides even higher deficits over the next ten years?  A “medium” level of generosity for the Silver plan, with an “average” level of access to physicians and hospitals.  On top of that, the plan still underpays providers with even the 10% boost over Medicare payments, which no one is suggesting will remain permanent.  And that will only still cover “nearly everyone,” a measure Dr. Parente doesn’t explain in his statement.

And to answer Nate Silver, what happens to the private market when this “average” and “medium” plan gets implemented?

Because the public plan can compete with the individual and group market private sector offering, we saw a crowd out resulting from the public plan of 79 million covered lives with the majority people leaving their employer sponsored medium PPOs and HMOs.

In other words, almost a third of all covered Americans would get thrown out of their current plans and onto government-paid care.

Parente included this warning:

As a nation, we are on the verge of making multitrillion dollar gamble that more per capita health care deficit spending will make us better off as a society. We are wagering with starting bids in the trillions that excessive spending into the healthcare system accelerates breakthrough medical technologies that can eliminate whole diseases, like diabetes or Alzheimer’s, in ways similar to the innovations introduced over half a century which reduced tuberculosis from being one the leading causes of death.

It is not an unreasonable wager, since federal funding for heart disease and cancer either directly through research or indirectly through Medicare has yielded state of art medical care. But it is a wager nonetheless, and we may find our reckoning is not only with the future debt of our children, but their security where the economic crisis has brought international scrutiny upon the US from the principal purchasers of our treasuries. Furthermore, saving businesses from paying health care costs or a state government with federal intervention is simply an accounting cost shift that only saps our long term economic strength.

These numbers show that without a doubt.

Blowback

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AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:51 PM

Are you complaining that the democrat $1 trillion number is wrong or the $4 trillion number? Think it’s higher than both? Lower than both? Somewhere in the middle?

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 2:53 PM

I, obviously, so very much disagree with most of you on healthcare.

I think it’s the building block of a revitalized American economy.

I honestly do. Yes, nobody on the gov’t plan will like it. Yes, they will moan for more. Ignore them. I still say, this could revitalize small business.

The reason I think this is that we’ve just lost so many industries to globalization. What can we really do to employ people?

Not everyone can live off of working in Mimi’s or Starbucks, folks!

We need new business. Real business.

They can’t operate with healthcare as it is.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:54 PM

Seriously, CA can’t project for 6 months without being wrong.

It’s all too dependent on the economy.

So the projected costs?

It’s all just about assumptions, etc.

Too complex to be meaningful to people.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:51 PM

First off, I agree with Lorien. They’re to conservative.

Secondly…look to the UK, and France, and Canada. All are denying care, or witholding care, because of costs. It’s breaking them. That’s all you need to know. If these countries, with smaller populations, than the U.S., can’t do it, what makes us think we can succeed here? It’s ludicrous. This will cause unemployment to go up, and less tax revenue going in. So…….

capejasmine on June 25, 2009 at 2:54 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:51 PM

Are you willing to be on a plan that the president wouldn’t put his family on?

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 2:54 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:54 PM

You know to make small business more competitive. Tax them to death. – AnninCA.

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 2:55 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:51 PM

PS. Are you seriously arguing that an inability to estimate costs should inspire us to vote for something?

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 2:55 PM

We need new business. Real business.

Such as?

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 2:55 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:54 PM

Taxes will increase, immensely. Even if small businesses don’t have to pay insurance for their employees, a sum will be needed to provide the insurance from the Government. So….. in a sense, it will make no difference. This will kill small business, because they won’t be able to afford the taxes, and we won’t because paying higher taxes, means less money for us to spend. It WON’T WORK, and it’s not meant to. This isn’t about health care, it’s about grabbing power, and keeping power.

capejasmine on June 25, 2009 at 2:57 PM

We need new business. Real business.

Such as?

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 2:55 PM

Carbon neutral funeral homes.

Loxodonta on June 25, 2009 at 2:58 PM

A million seconds is 11.5 days. A billion seconds is 32 years. A trillion seconds is 32,000 years.
If we wanted to pay down a trillion dollars of the US debt, paying one dollar a second (no interest), it would take about 32,000 years. Western civilization has not existed for 32,000 years. Neanderthals in Europe disappeared approximately 35,000 years ago.
A tightly-packed stack of new $100 bills totaling $1 million would be about 4 feet high. A billion dollars, 4,000 feet high or equivalent to about three Sears Towers stacked on top of one another. That means a stack of $100 bills totaling $1 trillion would be 789 miles or 144 Mt. Everests stacked on top of one another.
Current estimates of the number of stars in the Milky Way ranges between 100 and 400 billion.
The earth is about 8,000 miles wide (diameter), and the sun is about 800,000 miles wide, not quite a million miles. The earth is about 93 million miles from the sun; this is about 491 billion feet. A dollar bill is about 6 inches long; thus a trillion dollar bills laid end-to-end would stretch further than the distance from the earth from the sun.
The 2007 U.S. federal budget totaled $2.8 trillion. The proposed 2009 budget is $3.1 trillion. Neither includes expenditures for the Iraq war.
In 2007, Microsoft generated $51 billion in revenue — that’s sales, not profits. To reach a trillion dollars in revenue, we’d need 20 Microsofts. [IBM's revenue? 14.5 billion.]
A box that holds a case of copier paper will hold about $72,000 one-dollar bills. It would take 1.4 billion boxes to hold a trillion dollars.
It would take 1.8 trillion pennies to fill the Empire State Building.
With $1 trillion, everyone living in America in 2008 could have 1,000 boxes of Girl Scout cookies.

fourdeucer on June 25, 2009 at 2:58 PM

I feel like we’re being tortured…not by waterboarding, but like a foie gras goose, being force-fed Crap-by-Barack, every single day!

Hey, Barack, Just wait till all of us fat geese, squash this Commie Bastard

luvstotango on June 25, 2009 at 2:59 PM

Are you willing to be on a plan that the president wouldn’t put his family on?

Are you serious? I’ve never had the healthcare coverage that is awarded to the president.

Never.

I worked like a dog to make sure my family had healthcare. We were on an HMO.

But we were young, too, so it’s OK.

I think this entire “story” by the conservatives is just a “gotcha” kind of story.

It irritates me, frankly, since we all know…..you are not the president, and your healthcare is not going to do what his does.

It’s just manipulation.

But, one of the best stories of the past 2 years was about Oprah.

She has, of course, premier insurance. Her heart was racing.

The hospitals put her through all kinds of tests.

It was just menapause.

LOL*

Now me? I just sweated it out and opened the fridge door.

I laughed over her segment on that.

They think that AAA insurance is better. Really? Someone should have just said, “Use ice.”

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:59 PM

We accounted for the public plan being reimbursed at 10% above Medicare reimbursement, which is also 10% below commercial insurance premiums.

Unless you are or know someone who is on Medicare, you have no idea how scary this is. Medicare routinely pays less than 40 percent of actual costs for hospital stays, surgery, anesthesia, and tests. It is WAY more than 10% below private reimbursement rates. My father recently had surgery for a broken leg. The anesthesia charge was $1150. Medicare paid $350.

rockmom on June 25, 2009 at 3:00 PM

http://online.wsj.com/article/john_fund_on_the_trail.html

Wow read John Fund’s take on Congress and unions. This is a disaster! Please we must stop this insanity!

petunia on June 25, 2009 at 3:00 PM

$4 trillion!? Yawn.

Who really cares at this point? The US debt will never be paid back. Congress is going to vote on two major pieces of legislation without having read them.

If our elected officials don’t care why should I? The repubs didn’t care when it counted and the Dems never did.

While I’m against Obama’s proposal if it passes I’ll just add it to the stupid pile right over there with ethanol, open borders, cap and trade, global warming lunacy, Islam the religion of peace, etc.

patrick neid on June 25, 2009 at 3:01 PM

Put the cost aside for a moment and ask yourself what kind of quality or quantity is this wonderful plan going to provide for that humongous out of this world cost? While you’re at it call or write your senator and congressman and ask them if they are going to switch health care plans so they can have the same wonderful plan they are forcing us to take.

Kissmygrits on June 25, 2009 at 3:02 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:59 PM

I hope that made sense before you typed it; because afterwards no one has a clue what you are talking about.

If the president thinks his public plan is the best solution, he should put his family on it, no? That’s the idea, right?

All congressmen should be on it too – if it’s the best possible plan.

Or are some animals more equal than others?

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:02 PM

the is a way, waaaay, back of the envelope calculation but here goes:

4T / 47M * 313M = 26.6T

Adding in the choose one(illegal aliens, undocumented workers) of 20M produces:

26.6T * 333M / 313M = 28.3T

assuming an annual 1.1% population increase (annual population increase from 2000 to estimated 2006) then the 10-year average is about 349M so:

28.3T * 349M / 333M = 29.7T

This is the ten year cost, or 3.0T / yr ignoring inlflation and discounting.

Since health care is 1/7th of the GDP of 14.3T then current cost is $2T or about a $1,000,000,000,000 per year increase over what we have now.

The increase per taxpayer will be $1T / 333M = $3,000 per year for every person on US soil. This is after tax and added to their current theoretical healh care cost. If they currently do not have insurance they need to add in an additional $6,000 per year. So a family of 4 that currently has insurance will have $12,000 per year less or roughly $250 less per week. If they do not have insurance it will be about $36,000 per year ($750 per week) out of pocket.

Since all of this will be paid by the “top 2%” that clearly need to be more patriotic it comes from the free money pool and, as such, will not increase the deficit.

Jed_Eckert on June 25, 2009 at 3:03 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:59 PM

The High Crime being perpetrated by Obama & Congress doesn’t bother you at all?

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:03 PM

Light-Year, in astronomy, unit of length sometimes used to measure vast distances. It is equivalent to the distance that light travels in a mean solar year. At the rate of approximately 300,000 km/sec (186,000 mi/sec), a light-year is equal to 9,461,000,000,000 km (5,880,000,000,000 mi)

A light year is 5.88 trillion miles or one crappy government run healthcare system. Maybe we should start using light year dollars to describe the magnitude of the cost of this proposal.

Gotcha on June 25, 2009 at 3:03 PM

None of these projections make much sense, frankly.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:45 PM

Why don’t they make sense? Because they were done by a professor at a liberal state University?

Is it the part where the public option destroys private insurance because they are exempting it from state “minimum coverage laws” so that private insurance can’t compete, forcing millions to the public option?

Or can the liberal mind not grasp that the government doesn’t have to make a profit? The Post Office is bankrupt and the Postmaster General makes over $800,000 a year and we keep pouring money into it. What private business would survive that without government bailouts? The government public option can price people out of the market, then cut coverages to “reduce costs.”

Is it the part that Obama told a woman last night that her mother who got a pacemaker because the doctor saw she had a strong will to live a long time that her mother probably should have just “taken a pill for the pain.”?

Or maybe you should look at how Kennedy’s bill, because it’s SO AWESOME (/sarc) for all of us EXEMPTS members of Congress and Unions . . .

This is all about control. First, we are forced into a single-payer system for all but the rich (like Obama who “will make sure his family gets the best care”), then they start telling us what we can and can’t eat, how much exercise we have to get to obtain coverage, what we are worth according to our age, what treatments are pointless because they just extend our costly life, etc., etc.

It will either cost $4 Trillion over 10 years, or cut the average age of our populace by 20 years. Then again, as long as the candidate isn’t looking to cut SS or Medicare, older people vote Republican, so maybe that’s the point: Limit the voting population to healthy, young, ideologues who believe all the beautiful “theories” of professors that haven’t run a lemonade stand . ..

PastorJon on June 25, 2009 at 3:04 PM

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:03 PM

AnninCA just wants her binky.

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:04 PM

If the president thinks his public plan is the best solution, he should put his family on it, no? That’s the idea, right?

Why in the world would you think this?

Unless you’re a gov’t worker, your benefits don’t come CLOSE to what we’re supporting for any gov’t worker, nevermind O.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:05 PM

Unless you’re a gov’t worker, your benefits don’t come CLOSE to what we’re supporting for any gov’t worker, nevermind O.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:05 PM

You have no idea about what my benefits are like

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:08 PM

Fine, so continue the profit model. Continue to support the private industries which take premiums and then shake out “sick people.”

Until it hits YOUR family, I doubt you’ll get it.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:05 PM

What the unholy hell are you babbling about?

Do you think the Prez and his family, and Congress, are too good for this public plan? They should be exempt? Because they’re special? They have superior needs?

Why are you advocating criminal acts?

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM

I hope it does not pass and every single thing that the pro health care reform people predict comes true ten-fold…only I hope it comes true sooner rather than later. The majority of the American public deserve every bit of it.

beekiller on June 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM

Obama claims to want to cut medical costs…FINE, introduce tort reform, (will NEVER happen) and lawsuit limits, (again, it’ll never happen)

Jeff from WI on June 25, 2009 at 3:10 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM

Nobody has any right to healthcare.

It’s a service industry. Pay your own way.

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:10 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM

Please discover the LD50 of all your medications, double that and ingest.

daesleeper on June 25, 2009 at 3:10 PM

The High Crime being perpetrated by Obama & Congress doesn’t bother you at all?

Care to expand so I have a clue as to what you’re talking about?

I do find all Dems to be so in the pockets of lobbyists on healthcare that they aren’t at all better the Republicans on this issue.

It’s just the same ole’ story.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:11 PM

Is china asking to loan us 4 trillion to prepay health Obamascare Premiums?
I wonder if Docs realize the gubment will just not reimburse them if they go over budget. Treat them like chrysler bond holder. so sorry.

seven on June 25, 2009 at 3:11 PM

beekiller on June 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM

I hope your insurance company denies your claim for anal warts.

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:11 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM

Obama has said his plan will not treat sick people (or in public speak – those who won’t benefit from treatment). So what’s the difference?

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:12 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM

Let’s see. My wife had breast cancer and survived it on our private insurance. This year I’ve had major surgery on my wrist and a radical prostatectomy (done with the unbelievable (and unbelievably expensive) DaVinci technology. All paid for by my private insurance. It’s working just great for us so please just leave it the frack alone.

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:13 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:11 PM

Yet, here you are supporting their plan without actually thinking about any consequences.

You just want a binky.

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:13 PM

Fine, so continue the profit model. Continue to support the private industries which take premiums and then shake out “sick people.”

Until it hits YOUR family, I doubt you’ll get it.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM

Except when someone suggests a real solution with greater involvement of nongovernment nonprofits, AnninCA wrinkles up her nose at the complexity of the thing.

Impossible troll is impossible.

DrSteve on June 25, 2009 at 3:13 PM

Dear AnninCA,

The “anti” side to public insurance on this issue can be summed up with one over-riding principle. Contrary to what you and the filthy liar in the White House claim, healthcare is not a right guaranteed under the Constitution. That’s not to say that there isn’t a level of care that simple humanity requires but that level of care is far short of the immoral spending plan being proposed by your camp. My grandkids should not be forced into further debt over a plan that shows no chance of being successful. To support such a plan is evil.

highhopes on June 25, 2009 at 3:13 PM

The majority of the American public deserve every bit of it.

beekiller on June 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM

At least, now, we get to the root of the issue, don’t we?

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:13 PM

Nobody has any right to healthcare.

I will always continue to point out the truth on this. You’re wrong.

Hospitals are NOT allowed to turn away patients. You DO pay for this.

It’s federal law.

In So. Cal, we are NOT allowed to turn away any patient who has life-threatening conditions.

That’s the law.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:13 PM

HornetSting on June 25, 2009 at 2:38 PM

Browsed Karl’s ObamaCare infomercial thread for the usual suspect?

Loxodonta on June 25, 2009 at 2:46 PM

We’ve lost 7 hospitals in LA in 5 years. We seriously must address this issue. The losses are directly due to the uninsured illegal aliens using emergency rooms for free as problem in this area.
Akzed on June 25, 2009 at 2:23 PM

We have a winner!
HornetSting on June 25, 2009 at 2:28 PM

Before any more domestic legislation, we need our national defense and international alliances clarified to meet the N.Korean/Iranian direct assault, and stave off others as they are carrying out their process to attack us directly.

Let’s get to work, drill here and now, build more refineries, build the gas pipeline, and build modern nuclear energy plants!

Meanwhile, let’s have comprehensive tax reform that repudiates any tax benefits to non-USA citizens, deny amnesty to illegal aliens, and repeal the instant citizenship granted to FUTURE babies born of non-citizens within the USA. Remove incentives to break and enter into the USA or to stay without legal standing. Enforce current immigration laws, repeal impediments to law enforcement, and require government employees in immigration to fulfill their contracted job responsibilities efficiently and accurately.

No ObamaCare, Mr. President. Prove allegiance to America. Prioritize. Face the real dangers of imminent attack from foreign enemy combatants.

maverick muse on June 25, 2009 at 3:13 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:13 PM

Is it time, yet, to churn out the 7 hospitals in 5 years line?

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:15 PM

Care to expand so I have a clue as to what you’re talking about?
AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:11 PM

You’ve heard of the Constitution, right? The Supreme Law of the Land? Among other things, the wilful violation/subversion of this supreme law is a high crime. High Crimes are impeachable.

Since the US government has no Constitutional authorization to legislate healthcare (or education, or employment, or automobiles….), any attempt to do so is in violation of the 10th Amendment – and any people conspiring to do so are guilty of a High Crime and should be impeached.

Impeached = Fired.

All of them.

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:15 PM

The “anti” side to public insurance on this issue can be summed up with one over-riding principle. Contrary to what you and the filthy liar in the White House claim, healthcare is not a right guaranteed under the Constitution

See above post. It is the law.

That is exactly why 7 hospitals have collapsed in my city, LA, in the past 5 years.

It IS the law, deemed by the supreme court.

We cannot turn away any patient who may die.

That IS the law.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:15 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:13 PM

Laws are not equal to Rights.

The ‘laws’ you speak of are themselves illegal.

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:17 PM

Is it time, yet, to churn out the 7 hospitals in 5 years line

*sigh*

I know. Let me guess. You don’t think CA’s problems could ever affect you.

You’re wrong.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:17 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:15 PM

And the solution, of course, is to expand that to anyone who wanders into the hospital who can’t pay must be treated.

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:17 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:17 PM

Government policy is what causes hospitals to fold, and you are here whining that you want more of that policy.

It’s insane.

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:18 PM

We cannot turn away any patient who may die.

That IS the law.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:15 PM

But you can turn away any person who may not die if he/she can’t pay for the services. Therefore, only lifesaving emergency procedures are mandated by law, other procedures are no. Ipso facto, routine health care is NOT a right.

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:18 PM

Why is healthcare a right?

If it is, can you demand a doctor treat you for something – even if he chooses not to?

If so, is slavery a right as well?

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:20 PM

But you can turn away any person who may not die if he/she can’t pay for the services. Therefore, only lifesaving emergency procedures are mandated by law, other procedures are no. Ipso facto, routine health care is NOT a right.

Oh trust me. We’re so over that.

You may still be treating flu in ER.

But So Cal is not.

It’s only gun-shot wounds, etc.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:21 PM

I hope your insurance company denies your claim for anal warts.

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:11 PM

Deny, deny, deny is the mantra…and may you lose your job and be denied coverage for something small like everyone else. It is well deserved. Enjoy your few dollars of sacred taxes. ;)

beekiller on June 25, 2009 at 3:21 PM

…we’ve just lost so many industries to globalization.
We need new business. Real business.
AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:54 PM

If AT&T switched calls today the way they did 100 years ago, they would need to employ every single adult woman in the country to work as operators. However, electronic switching has not put all the women in America on the unemployment line. Why? Because when businesses cut costs, they innovate and expand. Electronic switching allowed us to have the Internet and cell phones. Those new and expanded lines of business employed all the women displaced from operator jobs and then some.

We will reap the same reward from globalization. More than that, as countries become interdependent, the possibility of war drops precipitously.

You know how to kill this goose that’s laying the golden eggs? Suck up all that excess capital with a burdensome and confiscatory tax. You want proof? In this country, we are all freaking out over an 8% unemployment rate. In the socialist utopias of western Europe, 9-14% is the norm.

Government rarely is the best solution to any problem. Our health care system needs reform, but only because it was devised during WWII and times have changed. What needs to happen is for government to get its nose out of it and free the private sector to cut costs and innovate the way they do in every other industry.

Kafir on June 25, 2009 at 3:23 PM

If so, is slavery a right as well?

Hello? What’s this about?

Anyone can refuse treatment.

But can that person be a part of government pay plans? No.
Can that person be a part of a group plan that pays that? No.

But that person has every right to go out and be independent and live according to their own principles.

What they cannot do is agree to be a part of group plans and then refuse treatment to patients.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:23 PM

beekiller on June 25, 2009 at 3:21 PM

I’m too wealthy to worry about that. I just want to see you suffer a colossal bout of arse grapes.

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:23 PM

beekiller on June 25, 2009 at 3:21 PM

Seems like you’d be okay with the majority of americans coming down with something that would kill them. Right?

The majority of the American public deserve every bit of it.

beekiller on June 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM

So you should be happy. Rejoice in your hate!

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:23 PM

Recently from the proudly left Guardian or what we can all look forward to:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/nov/30/pharmaceuticals-cancer-kidney-health

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/jun/25/cancer-treatment-premature-deaths

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:25 PM

Oh trust me. We’re so over that.

You may still be treating flu in ER.

But So Cal is not.

It’s only gun-shot wounds, etc.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:21 PM

Perhaps if you read what I wrote we could have an intelligent discussion. “Therefore, only lifesaving emergency procedures are mandated by law”. That would be gunshots, etc. Having prostate surgery. as I did, is not a right. It’s something I paid for through my work and premiums to my private insurance.

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:25 PM

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:18 PM

How are you? Did all go well?

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:26 PM

We will reap the same reward from globalization. More than that, as countries become interdependent, the possibility of war drops precipitously.

You could be right.

We’ll have to tough it out. I sincerely don’t see any path out of this huge adjustment.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:26 PM

“We have to tell doctors that there’s pills out there that maybe can do just as much good as needless surgery so we can save money that way and as a result provide insurance to everyone instead of just a few.” Obama, last night in his ObamaCare infomercial on state run ABC.

If that doesnt scare the living shit out of every single American, what the hell will?

Who is “we????” How does Obama know if surgery is “needless” or not? Who the hell is he to say a pill will work rather than surgery??? My God, we’re f*cked.

Jackson1227 on June 25, 2009 at 3:26 PM

Hello? What’s this about?
AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:23 PM

You really don’t understand, do you? You are incapable of seeing the link between (illegal) government-mandated healthcare (as a ‘right’), and slavery.

Explains a great deal about the last election.

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:26 PM

Ann should move to Oregon for a taste of the future.

Oregon Health Plan wouldn’t cover the treatment, but that it would cover palliative, or comfort, care, including, if she chose, doctor-assisted suicide.”

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:26 PM

See above post. It is the law.

T

hat is exactly why 7 hospitals have collapsed in my city, LA, in the past 5 years.

It IS the law, deemed by the supreme court.

We cannot turn away any patient who may die.

That IS the law.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:15 PM

EXACTLY!

And somehow you think that a federal law which mandates this without providing for payment to these hospitals is bad, while thinking that having a federal law which mandates coverage for everyone without having a clue how to pay for it is good.

I’m confused.

BacaDog on June 25, 2009 at 3:27 PM

I can state from personal experience that there are laboratories out there being paid by medicare/cal for some tests at or below their real production cost. Kinda hard to run a business at cost unless you never expect to grow.

Imagine what happens when 20 million operah-types now have access to unlimited health care they don’t have to pay for to clog waiting rooms for upset tummies and menopause while people with actual illness/injury wait in line.

WitchDoctor on June 25, 2009 at 3:27 PM

Perhaps if you read what I wrote we could have an intelligent discussion. “Therefore, only lifesaving emergency procedures are mandated by law”. That would be gunshots, etc. Having prostate surgery. as I did, is not a right. It’s something I paid for through my work and premiums to my private insurance.

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:25 PM

…and in Britain, you would not have had the option. Watchful Waiting is the prescribed “treatment”. For someone like my dad with the aggressive kind of prostate cancer, he wouldn’t have made is six months under the NHS.

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:27 PM

Why does no one think about who actually PROVIDES the care??? No reward (financial gain) means no risk (8+ years of debt in medical schools, residencies, etc). Anyone notice how there is increasingly a lesser amount of general practice doctors??? The reason? No money in it. You want the best and brightest becoming doctors? Reward them for their work!

search4truth on June 25, 2009 at 3:28 PM

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:26 PM

It went amazingly well thanks! Two days in hospital, up and taking walks after 4 days. It’s been 5 months now and my PSA is .04 and I feel like I never had the surgery. And all in a small town hospital here on the Eastern Shore.

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:28 PM

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:27 PM

Don’t remind me….and it has only gotten much, much worse since I got the heck outta dodge.

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:29 PM

Why is healthcare a right?
If it is, can you demand a doctor treat you for something – even if he chooses not to?
If so, is slavery a right as well?
lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:20 PM

Ever notice that Statist trolls like ‘her’ never answer direct question like this.

The fact is that an opened-ended obligation like healthcare CANNOT be a right, for the exact reason you stated.

You do not have the Right to enslave another for anything.

Jon Galt on June 25, 2009 at 3:30 PM

I’m too wealthy to worry about that. I just want to see you suffer a colossal bout of arse grapes.

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:23 PM

Karma says you’ll be the one…or someone you love…if you are capable of such a thing. ;)

beekiller on June 25, 2009 at 3:31 PM

BacaDog on June 25, 2009 at 3:27 PM

You’re confused? I was just sitting here trying to decide what irritates me the most…stupid people or people who think I am stupid…

ladyingray on June 25, 2009 at 3:31 PM

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:27 PM

My family all still live in England and my brother-in-law who is a surgeon just took early retirement becasue he’s sick and tired of dealing with the NHS. My sister has had two botched knee replacements under the NHS and waited years for both of them. Now she’s being told there’s nothing they can do about it and she’ll just have to get used to pain killers and a wheelchair for the rest of her life.

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:32 PM

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:28 PM

That is terrific. I’m glad you’re doing well! I was starting to get worried about you.

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:32 PM

Too complex to be meaningful to people.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:51 PM

I have noticed in all of your healthcare posts you basically have two talking points that you repeat ad nauseum:

1. You quote from the bogus 72% poll
2. You warn us that the Republicans/Conservatives will pay dearly for their opposition.

Other than that, you have not contributed one substantive policy proposal or piece of analysis. I would call you a troll, but you actually seem to be a polite, well-meaning person. Your problem is that you’re just out of your depth in this discussion. You seem to have very little grasp of economics and the real cost of things. When confronted with a economic analysis that points out you can’t have all of the unicorns and skittles you want, you come back with a response that essentially boils down to:

Math is hard!

- AnninCA

PackerBronco on June 25, 2009 at 3:32 PM

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 3:23 PM

So you agree, that any doctor should be able to opt out of a public plan, yes? Not accept people on the plan if they so choose, correct?

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:33 PM

You’re confused? I was just sitting here trying to decide what irritates me the most…stupid people or people who think I am stupid…

ladyingray on June 25, 2009 at 3:31 PM

They are usually one in the same.

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:33 PM

They can’t operate with healthcare as it is.

AnninCA on June 25, 2009 at 2:54 PM

Medicare and Medicaid together are about $70 TRILLION underfunded Ann- and that’s just the old people.

Can’t you guys leave bad enough alone?

Chuck Schick on June 25, 2009 at 3:36 PM

beekiller on June 25, 2009 at 3:21 PM

I’ve never had a claim denied. Never. I’ve got 3 kids, one with a relatively rare condition that has required regular expensive treatment since he was born, and many many specialist visits his first few months. Never a single question about whether a treatment would be covered. I have actually changed insurance companies a few times since the affected kiddo was born, and no one ever had an issue with it.

The vast majority of Americans are satisfied with their own coverage. They are concerned about other’s perceived lack of access to care, but to say that “the mantra is deny, deny, deny” is to ignore reality.

Life is not a John Grisham novel.

DrSteve on June 25, 2009 at 3:36 PM

why does Obama hate us so much?

BPD on June 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:32 PM

I should have realized from your sn that you had a British connection/origin. I’m sorry to hear of your sister’s situation. The British papers seem full of horror stories of unnecessary death and suffering caused by health care rationing and mismanagement.

I can’t believe we are going down the same path. I don’t begrudge the Canadians and Europeans for trying socialized medicine, but you’d think we’d learn from them…

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM

there is one simple, undeniable and unavoidable reason why I will oppose the Democrat’s healthcare “reform” as far as is possible. I say this as a healthcare worker and nursing major. Their plan is not at all concerned with the practice of healthcare, just the logistics. They scream and gripe about the money, Money, MONEY GODDAMIT I WANT YOUR MONEY!
None of them, not a one, ever says anything more than token gestures about the actual implementation and practice of the art of healing the sick. They don’t give a flying whatsit about the actual practice of healthcare, just about the distribution of the money. They know nothing about healing, and they care even less. For that reason I will trust none of them to ever have a say in the art of healing, because people like that can never give life, only visit death on those who trust them.

jollycynic on June 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM

Steyn talked National Health Care on Rush a few days back.

V15J on June 25, 2009 at 3:38 PM

BPD on June 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM

Government.

lorien1973 on June 25, 2009 at 3:38 PM

why does Obama hate us so much?

BPD on June 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM

Because we’re Americans and he isn’t

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:38 PM

I’ve never done anything to Obama, why does he want to ruin my country? F him. I hope he fails.

BPD on June 25, 2009 at 3:40 PM

Kennedy wrote the No Child Left Behind bill as well as working on the “health” bill….so in a few years, no one in this country will be sick and all the kids will be math whizzes!!!!!

/sarc

search4truth on June 25, 2009 at 3:40 PM

BPD on June 25, 2009 at 3:40 PM

It’s not your country, it’s his kingdom, and you’re a troublesome serf.

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:41 PM

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:38 PM

We have a winner; thread over.

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:41 PM

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM

Yes, English born and raised, now enjoying life in St. Michaels (The town that fooled the British). When I was growing up in Britain the NHS system actually worked, doctors made house calls, and hospitals functioned well. Of course that was a long time ago and the system has now broken down entirely. My brother-in-law has private health insurance and he works for the NHS!!

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:42 PM

AnninCA must stand to benefit somehow from government mandated socialist health care. Her employer probably stands to rake in big bucks if this monstrosity is pushed through.

No one in their right mind thinks this is a good thing. Greed, control and power is the driving force.

darwin on June 25, 2009 at 3:43 PM

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:42 PM

I joined the rebels down south

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:43 PM

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:43 PM

I was in California for my working life and couldn’t wait to get out. Maryland is south enough though and works for me!

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:46 PM

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:42 PM

It seems that the best of intentions start of well and succumb to the laws of unintended consequences. We need you are Limey Geek to get the message out (because heaven knows we can’t count on the right to craft and disseminate a message).

But on a lighter note, I’m a bit north of B’more. I hope the crabs are plentiful and heavy.

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:50 PM

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:46 PM

MD will be even nicer when you can pack heat ;)

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:50 PM

I’m a bit north of B’more. I hope the crabs are plentiful and heavy.

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:50 PM

Given the kind of people I saw in Baltimore, I don’t want to think about crabs ;)

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:51 PM

They are usually one in the same.

Laura in Maryland on June 25, 2009 at 3:33 PM

‘Tis sad but true…

ladyingray on June 25, 2009 at 3:54 PM

LimeyGeek on June 25, 2009 at 3:50 PM

I can! Thanks to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act. It really p.o.’s the state government though!

Trafalgar on June 25, 2009 at 3:54 PM

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