A swing and a miss on the public plan; Update: VA makes my point … again
posted at 8:47 am on June 25, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
George Will wrote a critique of the Obama administration’s public-plan option, tying it to the advancement of a broad Democratic agenda. Nate Silver of Five Thirty Eight attempts to rebut Will, but instead does a sleight-of-hand to combat a strawman argument. Will wrote:
The puzzle is: Why does the president, who says that were America “starting from scratch” he would favor a “single-payer” — government-run — system, insist that health care reform include a government insurance plan that competes with private insurers? [...]
Assurances that the government plan would play by the rules that private insurers play by are implausible. Government is incapable of behaving like market-disciplined private insurers. Competition from the public option must be unfair because government does not need to make a profit and has enormous pricing and negotiating powers. Besides, unless the point of a government plan is to be cheaper, it is pointless: If the public option conforms to the imperatives that regulations and competition impose on private insurers, there is no reason for it.
Silver responded:
Emphasis in original. Will’s argument is apparently this: The government does not need to make a profit and will have greater leverage with providers; therefore it will deliver the same service for less money. That’s unfair!
No, that’s actually not Will’s argument. The normally excellent Silver replaces Will’s argument with a handy reductio ad absurdum that ignores the two mechanisms of the public plan which will end most private insurance and leave the US with a single-payer system by default.
First, where in Will’s argument does he say that the public plan will deliver “the same service”? Perhaps Silver is not as familiar with Medicare as I am, or the VA as veterans are, but in truth, government-run medical plans are far worse than any private-sector insurance plan. They cover less, Medicare/Medicaid require more in deductibles and co-pays, and the payments are poorly handled. One would have thought the “government can do it just as well as the private sector” would have disappeared after the Walter Reed scandal, but the Left still clings to its illusions.
The only thing that makes Medicare bearable is the Medicare Advantage plan, a partnership between the government and private insurers, and again I say this from personal experience. Guess what’s on the chopping block in ObamaCare?
Will doesn’t argue on effectiveness, though, but on the obvious fiscal implications of a public plan. Any public plan subsidized by taxpayers is essentially a cheat. It doesn’t pay for itself, so it presents an artificially low price to the consumer. “Costs less money” is a lie. It will look cheaper as it competes against private plans, but what the price list won’t show is how much each taxpayer has already paid to provide that low, low price. Even Barack Obama admitted as much in his press conference (emphasis mine):
Now, I think that there’s going to be some healthy debates in Congress about the shape that this takes. I think there can be some legitimate concerns on the part of private insurers that if any public plan is simply being subsidized by taxpayers endlessly, that over time they can’t compete with the government just printing money.
Obama calls this “a legitimate concern” — which Silver ridicules.
The second mechanism is the desire of employers to shed the costs of health insurance. Most people in the US get their health insurance through their employer. Many employers, especially smaller companies, would love to dump them into a government-paid plan, especially if it presents an artificially low price. If one company in a market does that and reduces its internal costs through this artificially low, subsidized price, competitive pressures on the prices of products and services in that market will force other companies to follow suit. Only the largest companies would hold out, and probably not for long, to meet competitive labor demands. When the large part of businesses dump their plans, the risk pool becomes too small, and the insurers will exit the field — leaving single-payer as the default.
That’s the argument that Silver avoids, and for good reason.
Update: Speaking of the VA, Bruce McQuain at QandO notices yet another indictment of GovernmentCare:
Amid growing controversy over procedures that exposed 10,000 veterans to the AIDS and hepatitis viruses, the Department of Veterans Affairs is now bracing against news that one of its facilities in Pennsylvania gave botched radiation treatments to nearly 100 cancer patients.
Veterans groups and lawmakers say VA hospitals have permitted these violations because federal regulations allow doctors to work with little outside scrutiny. They say the VA health system, with its under-funded hospitals and overworked doctors, is showing signs of an “institutional breakdown,” in the words of one congressman.
An official with the American Legion who visits and inspects VA health centers said complacency, poor funding and little oversight led to the violations that failed the cancer patients in Philadelphia and possibly infected 53 veterans with hepatitis and HIV from unsterilized equipment at three VA health centers in Florida, Tennessee and Georgia.
“Lack of inspections, lack of transparency” were likely to blame, said Joe Wilson, deputy director of the Veterans Affairs and Rehabilitation Commission for the American Legion, who testified before Congress this month on transparency problems in a budgeting arm of the VA.
All this could be must be yours, under ObamaCare!










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Your congressman: 202-224-3121.
Akzed on June 25, 2009 at 8:51 AM
No matter how popular Obama is, it is still a very tough sell to most Americans that a government-run-anything will be better than the private sector.
RedSoxNation on June 25, 2009 at 8:51 AM
Also, I heard the ABC Special was a dude…
RedSoxNation on June 25, 2009 at 8:52 AM
a dude?
rollthedice on June 25, 2009 at 8:53 AM
Okay for smart conservatives who know better, this plan sucks. But how is that going to stop anything?
rollthedice on June 25, 2009 at 8:54 AM
Obamacare: Starve the Fat people. Kill the Old People.
promachus on June 25, 2009 at 8:54 AM
Great post, Ed.
We’re fooked.
BPD on June 25, 2009 at 8:55 AM
And the one Obama calls illogical. You’d almost think he doesn’t understand the argument.
Pablo on June 25, 2009 at 8:55 AM
AMTRAK
Nuff said.
Kowboy on June 25, 2009 at 8:55 AM
Ed, you are way too kind.
SouthernGent on June 25, 2009 at 8:56 AM
Anything that government did back then was “Before Obama”, thus irrelevant to the Libs. It was Bush’s fault.
Orange Man on June 25, 2009 at 8:56 AM
This is a very good analysis, Ed. It shows that there is a single purpose behind Zero’s plan, which is to destroy private insurers. It is purely an attack on capitalism.
gh on June 25, 2009 at 8:56 AM
And tax whoever is left to death…
doriangrey on June 25, 2009 at 8:57 AM
Shorter Nate/Obamacare advocates:
NATIONALIZE THE HUMAN BODY IN ORDER TO SAVE IT!!!loll!!
Note to O-bots:
Health care is not “free” when the government runs it, nor is it a “right.”
Nothing is “free.” Ever. Somebody will pay for it. There are no free lunches.
Good Lt on June 25, 2009 at 8:57 AM
Peggy Joseph is ecstatic!
csdeven on June 25, 2009 at 8:57 AM
You know… the last time Obama started throwing out adjectives describing various kinds of debates…. Iranians started dying.
Not a good track record.
BPD on June 25, 2009 at 8:58 AM
Yet another reason why health insurance costs so much is the need for health care providers to overcharge private insurance, and private payers to recoup some of the loss resulting from treating patients when government paid programs refuse to pay the true cost of treatment.
Government intervention into the market place distorts price, or distorts supply because of the power of government to set price or supply by fiat.
Government governs best when it governs least, and intrusion into the market place ‘to make it fair’ is government at its worst. Well, no, corruption in government probably is government at its worst. We get both with The Obama Administration.
Skandia Recluse on June 25, 2009 at 8:58 AM
rhetorically speaking, I wonder if there will be an increase in doctors visits before folk’s employers pull the plug and the **** hits the fan….
cmsinaz on June 25, 2009 at 8:58 AM
And kill babies.
csdeven on June 25, 2009 at 8:58 AM
Hey, CO2 is free. For now.
Pablo on June 25, 2009 at 8:59 AM
I have no idea what you’re talking about. This is a “distraction.” Why do you have sick people? Private health insurance only serves to fuel corporate greeeeed.
/Democrat off
Good Lt on June 25, 2009 at 8:59 AM
That might end tomorrow.
BPD on June 25, 2009 at 9:00 AM
Some health insurance plans are more equal than others.
hillbillyjim on June 25, 2009 at 9:00 AM
Hey… Chris Matthews said that anyone concerned about the cost of Health Care reform is just “pussyfooting around.”
BPD on June 25, 2009 at 9:00 AM
Real, real simple to fix the whole thing: Just have employers stop providing it as a cost of employment.
If people have their own policy, just like on their cars or homes, they will shop around, get quotes, and buy the policy that best fits them. No more of keeping a bad job just for the insurance, no more stuggling to find new insurance after losing a job and the insurance that came with it.
As people shop around, if individual policies are too high, SOME company will step forward with some low-cost, innovative program to suck up some the cash from those supposedly 50 million new customers out there. (In fact, there ARE some out there already doing that, Billy Mays is pushing one nowdays) Companies that charge too much, or refuse payment, will lost customers and either adapt to the markets or go out of business.
At the same time, as people are writing the checks themselves, they will also demand accountability and fair pricing from medical providers, again with the market dictating which entities rise and fall.
We have to get away from this idiotic notion that it is somehow “free,” either with employer-provided insurance, or Big Nanny government. When something is “free,” the cost is often too high.
JamesLee on June 25, 2009 at 9:01 AM
If this passes, anyone over 50 might consider moving to Arizona to avoid Obama’s health care rationing:
petefrt on June 25, 2009 at 9:01 AM
On the other hand perhaps Congress needs a good healthy dose of robust debate in its ranks….
doriangrey on June 25, 2009 at 9:01 AM
I think this is analogous to what we see in public vs. private education. I pay my taxes to support the public schools, but send my kids to a Catholic High School. It is a real family sacrifice, but we think it is worth it. Everyone knows the “success” of American public education. Once the bills are being paid by the government, you’ll get the same two tier levels of service. Most government folks send their kids to a private school, not the DC public school system.
Imagine the health care system being influenced by the likes of the NEA. Frightening.
hamnj7 on June 25, 2009 at 9:01 AM
Fascinating! I just might take u up on the offer.
JiangxiDad on June 25, 2009 at 9:02 AM
Chris Matthews thinks we’re just pussyfooting around.
BPD on June 25, 2009 at 9:02 AM
If cap and tax gets enacted, a whole hell of a lot more people will be needing that public option before long, as a tsunami of American jobs flee overseas.
hillbillyjim on June 25, 2009 at 9:03 AM
That is exactly it.
B Man on June 25, 2009 at 9:03 AM
You’re essentially going to be taxed for breathing with the new
Cap-n-TradeDestroy The Private Economy Act #4 of 2009.Enjoy the air while it’s free, because Democrats aim to make it taxable.
Let me tell you how it will be;
There’s one for you, nineteen for me.
‘Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.
Should five per cent appear too small,
Be thankful I don’t take it all.
‘Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.
(if you drive a car, car;) – I’ll tax the street;
(if you try to sit, sit;) – I’ll tax your seat;
(if you get too cold, cold;) – I’ll tax the heat;
(if you take a walk, walk;) – I’ll tax your feet.
Don’t ask me what I want it for,
If you don’t want to pay some more.
Now my advice for those who die,
Declare the pennies on your eyes.
‘Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.
And you’re working for no one but me.
Good Lt on June 25, 2009 at 9:03 AM
Oh no, it’s much more. It’s a nurse or doctor asking if you have any firearms in the house, how many, are they locked up, etc. It’s having your monthly premium affected by the hours you spend at the gym, it’s mental health “screening,” it’s having your children forcibly “sex-educated” in the pediatrician’s office, and more.
It’s much more evil than you imagine.
Akzed on June 25, 2009 at 9:04 AM
I figure I’ll die from CO2 poisoning before I need Obama-care….
ladyingray on June 25, 2009 at 9:04 AM
Most States Lose Under H.R. 2454
http://www.americansforprosperity.org/files/MostStatesLose.pdf
Who Represents Me?
http://www.fyi.legis.state.tx.us/
izoneguy on June 25, 2009 at 9:04 AM
Meanwhile, here’s the latest success story from the UK’s National Health Service…
Many UK cancer deaths ‘premature’
EnglishMike on June 25, 2009 at 9:04 AM
Your congressman: 202-224-3121.
Akzed on June 25, 2009 at 9:05 AM
National Health Care is a Trojan Horse that will destroy your freedom.
izoneguy on June 25, 2009 at 9:06 AM
When are people going to figure this out. Obamacare restricts medical options for the elderly.Every medical treatment is weighed against age as well as other “quality of life” mumbo-jumbo. The REAL insidious part of the plan is it’s actually a way to kill off earlier, those getting benefits from an underfunded Social Security Plan.
If grandpa & grandma are DEAD, they don’t get a check.
Jeff from WI on June 25, 2009 at 9:07 AM
If you’re wondering what to tell your congressperson, here are some points* to bring up. The energy tax would:
Reduce aggregate gross domestic product (GDP) by $9.6 trillion
Destroy an average of 1-3 million jobs, every year
Raise electricity rates 90 percent after adjusting for inflation
Raise inflation-adjusted gasoline prices by 74 percent
Raise residential natural gas prices by 55 percent
Raise an average family’s annual energy bill by $1,500 annually
Increase the federal debt by 26 percent, which is $29,150 per person
Remember, we only have until tomorrow.
izoneguy on June 25, 2009 at 9:08 AM
Excellent, Ed.
It is offensive that Obama presumes his opportunity to “start from scratch” AS IF the founding fathers failed to get it right, but moreover, AS IF Obama could ever measure up to how well our founding fathers managed to create the best government EVER.
That Obama, the man with no transcripts and an intellectual pauper fed only on Marx with meager experience at best, demands to revise our government is OUTRAGEOUS!
Preserve the US Constitution
No More Obamanation
Impeach Corruption
Prosperity for Dummies: SEPARATION OF STATE FROM INDUSTRY
maverick muse on June 25, 2009 at 9:09 AM
In addition to your Congressman;
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
The White House Show reminds me of “Sanford and Son”, and “Movin’ On Up!” But the jokes, and the actors, are really bad.
Cybergeezer on June 25, 2009 at 9:12 AM
I don’t need to imagine. I’m Canadian. Almost everything you mention is already being done in the public school system and your’s is at least as bad as ours.
The consequence of destroying capitalism is socialism. That will take care of the doctor’s and nurses.
gh on June 25, 2009 at 9:12 AM
Destroying private insurance is sufficient. The rest follows.
gh on June 25, 2009 at 9:13 AM
What if the public plan is required by law to pay for itself? All subsidies simply go to people to buy their own plan (they need a plan, but can buy whatever one they want). If the public plan is bad, no one will choose it and it will have to get better. If the private plans are bad, no one will choose them and they will have to get better.
The bigger deal here is mandating coverage. The rest is just the implementation.
jonknee on June 25, 2009 at 9:14 AM
Let’s see how they run GM first. Before we let them have the reins to your doctor.
faraway on June 25, 2009 at 9:15 AM
Number one, does Obam’ter care what any law says?
And number two, didn’t they try something called Gramm/Rudmann in the early 90s to that same effect?
JamesLee on June 25, 2009 at 9:18 AM
Why does the president, who says that were America “starting from scratch” he would favor a “single-payer” — government-run — system, insist that health care reform include a government insurance plan that competes with private insurers?
Does anybody else see this as backward logic? “What a maroon!”
Cybergeezer on June 25, 2009 at 9:18 AM
Your government health care combined with crap & trade.
Inhale all you want but don’t exhale.
fourdeucer on June 25, 2009 at 9:19 AM
What about the patient that is difficult in diagnosis. He gives 100 dollars total for tests. If they can’t find what is wrong, send them home and tell them it was in their head.
seven on June 25, 2009 at 9:21 AM
Silver’s a hack. Silver’s ALWAYS been a hack. I don’t care what the learned public sez. The guy has always fudged his numbers.
Skywise on June 25, 2009 at 9:22 AM
This is kind of off topic, but I wasn’t familiar with the term “stalking horse” until now. This is amusing, because Obama’s Chinese name, 奥巴马, could be roughly translated as “Mysterious Lurking Horse”.
pifactorial on June 25, 2009 at 9:22 AM
Ed -
Fine job, based on your and your wife’s personal experience in the healthcare debacle. I suggest you be named Citizen’s Healthcare Czar and educate the masses as to the destruction this will cause to each and every American. I am also very familiar with the healthcare prcess due to my father’s 26+ year experience and feel you nail it on the head.
Odie1941 on June 25, 2009 at 9:23 AM
It’s obvious that showing the ‘Ogabe Health and Fun Power Hour Extravaganza’ on only one network didn’t have the intended effect; next week he will do it all over except this time on every single channel.
Bishop on June 25, 2009 at 9:23 AM
You can’t get medicare to pay for itself. You can’t even get the state of California to pay for itself.
Even if did get written into the law, it would be worked around or written right back out at the first sign of political mudslinging.
Skywise on June 25, 2009 at 9:24 AM
I wonder if Obama has a plan to reduce the carbon-contaminating emmissions of human beings? By what? 70% by 2015?
Oh wait. New healthcare will do that by rationing.
shick on June 25, 2009 at 9:25 AM
Here’s my prescription for health care.
We are told that 72% of Americans favor publicly-funded health care/insurance, and that 42 million people are uninsured. So, let’s do some simple math. 72% of, say, 300 million, is 216 million people. That means that there are (216 – 42) million = 174 million people who already have insurance and believe that they should pay for the health care of other people.
Now, we’re told that it will cost us $1.5T to insure 42 million people for 10 years. That’s about $3,600 per person per year.
So if we’re to insist on government involvement, why doesn’t the government just set up a website to match the 174 million people who want to pay for the health insurance of others with the 42 million who want somebody to pay for their health insurance. They could match them 1-1, and each donor would only have to pay $3,600 or so per year. With those kinds of numbers participating in a bulk-buy, that might turn out to be not a bad plan. And there would still be donors left over to buy me a new car!
mr.blacksheep on June 25, 2009 at 9:26 AM
I would be very interested in the results of an adult poll, accurately and honestly done, on whether the Constitution is past its time.
I think the results would be most depressing.
OldEnglish on June 25, 2009 at 9:27 AM
It’ll be the same with health care. The bills the Democrats are working on now contain provisions that specifically exempt all federal employees (including Congress, of course) from the public plan. If the public plan is so great, why don’t they want to be included?
Last night on ABC’s infomercial, a doctor asked Obama whether he’d pledge that if one of his family members got sick, he’d stick to whatever treatment was available to them under the public plan, rather than paying out of pocket for the best available treatment. Obama answered (if you can call it that) that of course he’d want his sick family member to get the best possible care — meaning, hell no, he would not allow his family member’s care to be limited to whatever treatment was available under the public plan.
It’s fine for the rest of us to have limited options when we’re sick, but Obama (and his family) and Congress (and their families) aren’t about to limit their own treatment options.
AZCoyote on June 25, 2009 at 9:27 AM
Sure you can, it would just mean giving the money that is currently given to Medicare to the patient and allow him/her to choose a plan. If the public plan sucks like everyone here seems to think, no worry just use your subsidy to purchase from whoever you think is awesome.
jonknee on June 25, 2009 at 9:28 AM
Agree Blacksheep. Much like the boondoggle of Porlulous – simply cut a check for those 42M to have healthcare coverage – which will lower the costs to everyone being all private carriers would be in play and the sky high uninsured treatments could be properly accounted for and forseen = stable cost projections and usage.
The so-called “left outs” of health insurance are going to be caught in a catch 22 – for now – they dont pay anything – rising overall costs when they go to the ER for treatment. Add on a copay (as Ed describes can be higher than a private carrier through Medicare) + additional expenses – to those who arent insured now, but will be – will no longer be able to run from expenses.
Odie1941 on June 25, 2009 at 9:32 AM
And if they both suck? One because it’s government and the other because it’s suffering from low quality by trying to compete with government?
Not to mention the screams which will emanate about the “poor and downtrodden” of society who need the government to guide them and who would be stuck in the “bad” government system.
Yeah, great idea.
Bishop on June 25, 2009 at 9:32 AM
WTF!?
Chaz706 on June 25, 2009 at 9:32 AM
But you’d still be able to use your great means to have whatever options you want. The point of a public plan isn’t to give unlimited care to everyone, it’s to make sure everyone has basic coverage. People with means will always be able to afford things that people without means cannot. The universal plans floating around now just mean that everyone can go to the doctor, you can still go to a more expensive one if you can afford it.
jonknee on June 25, 2009 at 9:32 AM
As Mark Steyn suggests over at NRO:
This is already happening in the UK, where government health care is the biggest ‘industry’. We haven’t got quite to that point yet in Canada, but the list of things that aren’t covered grows and, depending on which province you live, includes various life-saving treatments for people with serious diseases. In other words, the government does indeed decide what kind of treatment you can have, and when you’ll get it.
Good luck in this battle, because if it goes through you’ll never undo it.
ProfessorMiao on June 25, 2009 at 9:33 AM
In this area we have a “Medicare Advantage” plan run by Coventry which provides all the benefits of Medicare A + Medicare B, and adds Medicare D coverage, free gym memberships, and other benefits for a $0 premium.
“Medicare Advantage” plans are funded by the funds Medicare would normally spend directly on Medicare A and Medicare B.
So somehow Coventry has figured out how to deliver all of the benefits the government does PLUS add free drug coverage PLUS other benefits AND MAKE A PROFIT DOING IT!!!
This is why the government (and Liberals in Congress) hate the “Medicare Advantage” plans and are trying their best to do away with them or cripple them.
Successful “Medicare Advantage plans are stark, unambiguous proof that the government is unnecessarily costly and inefficient in delivering health care, and that one of the best ways to reduce costs and improve care would be to eliminate the government from the delivery proces.
landlines on June 25, 2009 at 9:34 AM
proces=process
landlines on June 25, 2009 at 9:35 AM
If they all suck someone will come along and do it better. Maybe it will be more expensive than the government plan, so be it. If everything else sucks people will be willing to pay more. Besides, right now if your employer’s plans suck you’re stuck. Isn’t more choice a good thing?
jonknee on June 25, 2009 at 9:35 AM
I watched the entire performance and was astonished at how poorly Barry played his part. Not a single concern brought forth by the Groundlings was answered with clarity and confidence by the Talking Chimp. Should that give opponents cause for celebration? Just the opposite, I should think. I’ve been around these dictocrats enough to know that reason and logic are of no real importance them. The Chimp knows its a fix and all he has to do is behave courteously. It’s about power and control. They want both and they shall have them both. Woe to those who stand in their way. Heed the lesson of IG Walpin those of you who still harbor concepts like truth and honesty.
One interesting sidebar; notice how the Obamoron will carefully avoid talking about health benefits and the like as taxable income. That’s because the Democrats don’t want to give up the play that somebody making 20K a year and enjoying several government programs is still under the poverty line.
mr1216 on June 25, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Well then what’s wrong with foregoing a public plan altogether and just giving tax credits/rebates for any medial insurance purchased?
Skywise on June 25, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Whatis to stop businesses from stopping private matching coverage and make people go with the gov run healthcare??? Nothing – much like the flight from pension, to matched 401k’s to no longer matching 401k’s – businesses will do what makes them more money and cuts the overhead. That alone will take out a few million from “making the choice” being their employer will no longer offer basic coverage or anything near “premium” coverage.
As I mentioned above – the missing link is those uninsured now – who get free treatment at the ER or other services – will now have a bloated copay, and additional costs that they never had before. There goes the “basic coverage argument” for those uninsured. They will not be happy when bills get sent for the first time, can’t afford the costs, then default on charges, lowering their credit rating and continuing the death spiral of poverty.
This is a faux utopian plan that will hurt everyone
Odie1941 on June 25, 2009 at 9:37 AM
AS for all those poor VA folks whose cancer treatment was botched, as well as those who were contaminated with Aids, I have read that they have no recourse: that the VA has some sort of immunity from lawsuits.
Is that adding up to “malpractice protection for Big Government docs who screw up, but not for thee, Private Practititoners?”
marybel on June 25, 2009 at 9:39 AM
Heh, Heh, – I am sure the bean counters at ABC are counting the losses.
Soon these networks will realize they are a business and will have to leave little Barry to fend for himself – or risk being taken over by Barry so they can run crappy Obamamercials 24/7.
izoneguy on June 25, 2009 at 9:39 AM
Just think of the criteria which would be used to make that decision, provided of course by the ACORN-administered census information that you were forced to give.
Union member, minority status, Congressional district, state in which you reside….oh yes, all of these would come into play when considering how deserving you are of extended care options.
Move out of Texas and live in Chicago, because the former will be cut off and the latter will see 100% coverage.
Bishop on June 25, 2009 at 9:39 AM
Nice idea, but there are very good reasons to believe that it won’t actually play out that way. A government ‘option’ will undercut private plans, eventually driving them out of business. Once the government plan becomes the monopoly (which Sibelius has stated is her desired outcome of the step of introducing such an option), it then becomes necessary to ‘manage costs’ by various means. In most provinces in Canada, those means include outlawing private medical practice so that if you want another option you have to leave the country to get it, and rationing based not on what is best for an individual patient but on what is best for the system. That means access to MRIs, colonoscopies and other expensive diagnostic tests is limited, many very expensive treatments are just not covered, and an increasing number of things – like eye exams and physiotherapy – are not covered. So you keep paying more and you get less for it, and it has nothing to do with your individual needs, past, present or future.
ProfessorMiao on June 25, 2009 at 9:40 AM
I don’t have a big problem with no public plan other than I think the government could help bring prices down. As I said if there were strict rules that it wouldn’t be subsidized I think it would have to be competitive or go away. I want coverage to be mandated, the rest is up for debate. Decoupling from employers would be another great move (that way people see what it actually costs, can change to plans that suit them, don’t have to worry about switching when they change jobs or even worse losing healthcare when they lose a job).
jonknee on June 25, 2009 at 9:40 AM
As member of a family that owns a small business (but I do not make the HR decisions), I would say this is very true. I would love to see our company get rid of managing our employee lives with respect to health care (except of on the job accidents), retirement, and dental. I would rather shed the health and dental, though, under a plan like McCain offered.
WashJeff on June 25, 2009 at 9:41 AM
VA doesn’t have total immunity, the easiest place to hit them is with accounting fraud – though a back door to poor health services – it’s sort of like nailing Capone on tax charges…
Odie1941 on June 25, 2009 at 9:41 AM
Your NEW Government Medical Center security will be staffed by Black Panther Goons.
Jeff from WI on June 25, 2009 at 9:42 AM
Bingo, why create a parallel, competing, guvment-run system at all; it would be far cheaper and easier to figure in a tax credit and let people go shopping.
Then again, that doesn’t allow for government control….so Ogabe may not like such an idea.
Bishop on June 25, 2009 at 9:44 AM
Perhaps it would be best if Obama’s “single payer” insurance, Pelosi’s “cap and trade” plan that is pending, and all the other “crap” plans happen quickly. That way, when the entire financial system rapidly collapses, and people are taxed into submission, the population will rebel and throw all these clowns into the gutter.
Best it is all done while there are still people around who know how to put the system back together again after the liberals break it.
Yoop on June 25, 2009 at 9:44 AM
It is important to note the difference between price and cost. The government can set the price of the public option plan so low that private insurers cannot compete. Freed from the need to make a profit, or even break even, there is no floor below which the price of the public plan cannot fall.
Of course, the price will then only cover a small portion of the costs. The rest will be made up by subsidies, either hidden or obvious. No matter what, the taxpayers will wind up stuck with the bill.
gridlock2 on June 25, 2009 at 9:44 AM
Look into Medical Savings Accounts for you and your employers. Alows you to take the burden off of your overhead, while still guiding them to proper healthcare coverage + a nice tax deductible.
Unfortunatley – this rising option is getting lost in the clutter. Made the switch 3 years ago for my small business – have a nice $28K nest egg sitting there in case I need it, instead of going to a “what if” void called “coverage” in the past 3 years…
Odie1941 on June 25, 2009 at 9:45 AM
Oh I get it… you just want to take away my liberties to assuage your own personal morality.
Skywise on June 25, 2009 at 9:46 AM
There are plenty of other things mandated that are done so for good reason. You have to pay taxes, you have to educate your child, purchase car insurance if you want to drive on a public road, etc. Society is better off for these things.
jonknee on June 25, 2009 at 9:50 AM
In the end, Obama will do what he did to GM & Chrysler? All health care industries will be bankcrupt for one reason or another, ask for a bailout and bingo, Obama owns and runs all health care industries through a health czar. Took a couple of months to own GM & Chrysler, it may take 3 to 6 months to get all health care companies. God have mercy on us.
atemely on June 25, 2009 at 9:52 AM
Is Government Run Healthcare Worth Dying For?
That is the tagline that needs to be repeated over and over to your elected officials and in public discussion. Lets cut to the chase folks.
Odie1941 on June 25, 2009 at 9:53 AM
There’s the rub. There are many, many ways of subsidizing a government enterprise without cash. You can make regulations that penalize the non-government competitors, for example. Or you can exempt the government enterprise from, inter alia sales tax, state income tax, federal income tax. You can provide subsidized labor, you can provide IT services and other capital-intensive functions via a government-run outsourcing agency for less than competitive rates. Or you can provide cheap capital in the form of ownership that doesn’t require dividends or stock appreciation.
If you were to take all those avenues of subsidy away, you would have just one more of the thousands of health care providers that already exist. What would change?
mr.blacksheep on June 25, 2009 at 9:53 AM
I have gov’tinterference in my healthcare already – thank you Tricare. I’ve pretty much just stopped going to the doctor, it’s so much hassle to get an appointment period, let alone a specialist referral. My mom thinks the VA is 100x worse (and thanks her lucky stars she didn’t get treated at any of those facilities above).
Anna on June 25, 2009 at 9:54 AM
*gov’t interference. Spacebar is sticky – thanks kids.
Anna on June 25, 2009 at 9:55 AM
It would be a very large error to assume that Barak Obama understands any argument.
Basically he believes that his assessment of any situation is so indepth and accurate that any opposing argument could not possibly be valid. Therefore the effort required to understand an opposing POV is a waste of his time.
Yoop on June 25, 2009 at 9:55 AM
Suppose the public option loses money every year. Remember that the original cost projections for Medicare were off by a factor of 9.
If it’s “non-negotiable” in political terms now, do you honestly think it’ll be allowed to fail? Tell me true, can you see any Democrat pulling the plug on it?
DrSteve on June 25, 2009 at 9:56 AM
MANDATES? Separate State from Industry. Require all state agencies and employees to fulfill their own contract job descriptions before laying on more regulations to “fix” us with more corruption.
Too many scams involved, beginning from both ends of this Pandora Box: the progressive politicians running our government into doomsday and the insurance industry itself gone septic long ago.
Take an objective example, civil engineering, for case in point outside of medicine and our human body. EX: insuring structures built in flood planes. There should be no structures build in flood planes (homes, industry, schools) and if insurance were always denied there would be no recurring coverages paid that in turn increase the price and cost for others. Those who build in flood planes pay their own costs on their own.
*Insurance companies are not PROVIDING the medical services. The hospitals, clinics and medical staff PROVIDE medical services.
*Lawyers break the medical expert who fails in court with outrageous settlements that are far too costly to subsequent patients who pay the burden cost for the victim of malpractice. The system if grotesquely disproportionate.
Solution? ALONG WITH comprehensive tax reform, eliminate all insurance beyond catastrophic coverage. Cut out the bureaucracy bloating the costs that patients pay for when seeking services. Whatever moneys are collected for services must be directed 100% into facilities and medical staff. Reject bureaucracy between patient and treatment whether the bureaucrat be government employees or insurance employees.
The COSTS for medical treatment must not only be accessible regardless of income. All should be required to pay for a visit to the doctor or practitioner. If a sliding fee based upon percentage of income is the answer, so be it.
Life isn’t fair. The more involved the government becomes assuming parental responsibilities rather than providing the stability of austere blind justice, the worse things get out of proportion.
maverick muse on June 25, 2009 at 9:57 AM
HAHA
alexraye on June 25, 2009 at 9:57 AM
The province I live in in Canada ‘mandates’ automobile insurance, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t people driving cars without insurance. You can’t force people to get insurance unless you decree them all insured, i.e., unless the government covers them.
ProfessorMiao on June 25, 2009 at 10:00 AM
I’m sure others have observed it already and I’m just slow coming to the game, but it seems to me that under Pres. Obama’s plan those who opt to remain with private insurers rather than going on the government plan will end up paying even higher costs than they presently are paying. Obviously, they will be paying their normal premiums, just as they are now. And supposedly, those who are on government care will be paying some level of premiums also, but because of the government’s ability to game the system they will no doubt be paying lower premiums than those who are on private insurance. Of course, these lower premiums paid by those on the government plan will not be sufficient to cover the medical costs incurred. So what is their insurer (the government) going to do? Well, it can’t reduce coverage- at least not until it has driven the competition (i.e., private insurers) out of business. After all, if the government reduces coverage while there is still competition, individuals will bail out of the government plan and go to private plans. This is a prospect that Obamacare will not permit to occur. At the same time, the government will not be able to increase its premiums to those insured since the whole point of Obamacare is that it will offer lower cost insurance than private insurers are able to offer. If they raise their premiums to levels comparable to private insurance, they lose their reason for being. So what will the government do? It will do the only thing it can do… it will raise taxes on everyone and use these tax revenues to subsidize the government insurance plan. Inasmuch as these higher taxes will be indiscriminately assessed on everyone, regardless of whether they are on the government insurance plan, the net effect will be that those who are on private insurance will not only be paying for 100% of their own insurance, but they will also be subsidizing those who are on the government plan.
The analog of this can be found in the private/public school systems. Parents who choose to send their children to private schools are free to do so, but they are not allowed to take a credit against the public school taxes that they pay. So what ends up happening is that they pay 100% of the education for their own children in private school while continuing to subsidize through their taxes the education of those children who are in public school. This forces parents who cannot afford to pay both private school tuition and public school taxes to “choose” to send their children to public schools. Of course, this is not really a “choice,” unless one considers a choice made under financial duress imposed by the government a “choice.”
Harrell on June 25, 2009 at 10:02 AM
That’s how it works now: from where do you think the money to pay for the uncovered people who go to Emergency for a hangnail comes? It eventually comes out of the pockets of the insured, of course.
mr.blacksheep on June 25, 2009 at 10:04 AM
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