Lot of chest thumping going on here.

Heard that from the English, just before they surrendered all their guns without resistance. Heard it from the Australians too, same result.

Fact is, if people voted their guns, Obama wouldn’t be president. And if people won’t vote for their guns, they sure as hell won’t fight for them.

Rebar

We ain’t English or Australian. Culturally, we consider the State to be our servant, and not our master.

As for chest thumping, I ain’t planning on taking on the full weight of the State when they come for my guns. They will find an empty house when they kick in my door.

And at that point, the ‘tards who supported these thugs might now have a problem …

Wouldn’t it be just awful if an armed citizenry overthrew a tyranny by force and established democracy and liberty? That never turns out well. Oh, except for that one time when we did it, of course.

Ed, I’m a little suprised by this question. Of course an armed uprising would be bloody and tragic but, if it means freedom for an oppressed people it would be worth it in the eyes of anyone who has every suffered at the hands of a tyrant. I think at least some Americans would agree with that. Part of the problem in this country is that we have taken for far too long what we have for granted. Because of this attitude if we don’t take a firm stand in the 2010 mid-term elections our sons and daughters will likely know what it’s like to live under a tyrant. In the past we have been creeping this direction. With the last election things have picked up pace and if the democrats retain control after 2010 I fear we will be full speed ahead to a socialist government.

As far as the second amendment goes I don’t think it is any longer effective in this country. People are so scared of losing what they have they will submit to the powers that be. By the time they realize they will lose everything anyway it will be too late. If the dems do retain control after 2010 I fear an armed revolution will be America’s only choice to keep her freedoms. Of course I may be wrong, our government may fail by itself because of the actions it is taking and the people will be able to pick up the pieces and start over. We can do that it’s in our blood, we are a resourceful people. Let’s hope some folks with sense get elected in 2010.

The dead Iranian protestor Neda Agha Soltan is becoming a saint in the democratic West. The public go nuts over stories like these, because they link emotions to a great political event, which can easily be used to morally justify our own POV: The Iran…

Well…Keep on smiling..keep on believing what your government tells you. You’ll be SO much happier…
Obama will tell you so.

Would that be the SAME federal report…

Jeff from WI on June 23, 2009 at 4:25 PM

No, it is not…if you read the report, rather then taking a guess you would know that.
Try reading, learning, then commenting…it will help you understand.
They detail the operation, the firing, the launching of the tear gas, etc. in detail.
I will try again….read, read, read, then comment.
Good bye…I have had enough of your foolishness…

Squiggy on June 23, 2009 at 4:02 PM

Well, seeing as Koresch “burned” the evidence, pretty hard to have physical confirmation of what he had done.
But then he had 50 days to submit to a legal search of his premises…instead he fired on the agents who were trying to present him with the legal warrant.
Koresh thought himself as God…in fact in his 7th seal (of his Message of Seven Seals), He stated this:

Koresh told his followers that they would not fully understand this seal until his return (from death)

But you are right, Reno was almost as crazy, and Clinton a liar…but Koresh was in another league, right up there with Jones and others.
He claimed to be an Angel, a God, a Prophet…when in fact he was just plain crazy…like most of these types of leaders.
It is a wonder to me that people don’t see “prophets” like this a phony. But will defend them as they lead their flock to death.

Jeff from WI on June 23, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Read the report and you will see the items were “commandeered” from the National Guard (by the FBI and ATF) under the pretense of Koresch having and distributing drugs and illegal arms and explosives.

It was not a military operation, under certain circumstances, the ATF (and the AG), a civilian organization, can utilize equipment and the people who maintain and operate the equipment for these type of operations.
The military commanders are relieved of any duty or responsibility since it is a “civil” matter and not a military one. They were only advised what was happening, not as advisers or participants…I don’t know how much more clearer it could be. You just have to read the actual report to understand…or create your own story.

Would that be the SAME federal report, filed to U.S. District Judge Walter Smith, that also stated that no member of the FBI or ATF fired ANY rounds at members of the Branch Dravidians, or into their buildings, on the final day of the siege? The same sworn affidavit that’s a laughable lie since it’s been documented, on film, members of the ATF, firing into the building.

Delta team at Waco?
A former CIA official says Army commandos played a role in the deadly standoff.

- – - – - – - – - – - -
By Jeff Stein

Aug. 28, 1999 | — With congressional Republicans calling for hearings on the FBI’s handling of the deadly 1993 Branch Davidian crisis, thanks to new revelations about the bureau’s long-denied use of gas grenades, it’s clear the whole story about the federal response to the Waco conflagration has yet to be told.

Salon News has learned that U.S. Army Delta team commando officers sat in on a meeting at CIA headquarters to discuss the ongoing Waco hostage situation in March 1993, according to a former CIA security officer. Such involvement by U.S. military personnel in a domestic conflict could be illegal.

They were looking to surprise Koresch, you don’t surprise someone by driving a tank…good grief, get away from your hate websites.
Koresch set fire to the compound, he let his people die, he was a maniac, murdering, prophet of god.
He already shot up some agents who came with legal documents for search and seizure…he started the shooting and killing.
Don’t keep looking at him as some hero or martyr..he was an animal, and he took dozens of lives with him.

He had 51 days to comply with the law.

right2bright on June 23, 2009 at 1:55 PM

this is such BS…the ATF raided him in the most thuggish way possible…they couldn’t just come to the compound and knock, or arrest him in town…oh now…the had to play NINJA and raid his compound..then they use Tanks and flammable tear gas to burn the compound down, and shoot anyone who dared try to flee…I don’t believe Danforth’s BS report about the FLIR

add to that Ruby Ridge, and Elian Gonzales, and we have a bunch of jack-booted thugs in government who would gun down any who dare protest them too much.

By the way, those ATF agent we sure quick learners on driving an M1A1.

Jeff from WI on June 23, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Read the report and you will see the items were “commandeered” from the National Guard (by the FBI and ATF) under the pretense of Koresch having and distributing drugs and illegal arms and explosives.
It was not a military operation, under certain circumstances, the ATF (and the AG), a civilian organization, can utilize equipment and the people who maintain and operate the equipment for these type of operations.
The military commanders are relieved of any duty or responsibility since it is a “civil” matter and not a military one. They were only advised what was happening, not as advisers or participants…I don’t know how much more clearer it could be. You just have to read the actual report to understand…or create your own story.

Hence the problem…as stated and confirmed, but you keep dodging.
It was a civilian action, civilian run, civilian planned, civilian fubar…sheesh…
As I had stated, the 2nd amendment is to protect us from politicians, not the military.
I doubt you will find any incident of the military attacking civilians…the closest would be something like Kent state and the National Guard, or Democratic conventions in the 60’s…maybe Eisenhower when he sent troops down to integrate schools.
But you will find the real source of concern, the real abuse of power is civilian…the Generals, Colonels, etc. are too highly trained and educated to fall for the political garbage that weak people like Obama, Reno, Napolitano, etc.. try to pull or have pulled.
Hence my objection to you broad painting the military, when you have no proof…but then you don’t need proof, you just “know it and feel it”.

Don’t be so hard on Janet Reno. I’ve been told Elian Gonzales sends her a nice birthday card every year.

Sorry to disappoint you with reality, but Koresch is no hero or martyr…he was a murderer.

right2bright on June 23, 2009 at 2:04 PM

I haven’t read all the posts, but of what I have I haven’t seen anyone saying Koresh was a hero.

I also haven’t seen anything proving he was this nutcase Janet Reno said he was. (I most definitely haven’t seen any proof of the child molestation charges.) It could be true, but I’m inclined to believe that was Reno trying to cover her role in mass murder. I admit I’m prejudiced to disbelieve anything that came out of Clinton’s people, so I’m not sure what to believe here. But I do think I’m erring on the side of caution to believe the BATF is dangerous(just ask Randy Weaver’s wife and son-oh wait-you can’t).

And now, according to Obama’s people, I’m a “right-wing extremist” because of my Christian beliefs. Seems it’s time to store up after all. You better pay close attention and get prepared. Either that, or it’s been nice knowing you.

Fact is, if people voted their guns, Obama wouldn’t be president. And if people won’t vote for their guns, they sure as hell won’t fight for them.

Rebar on June 23, 2009 at 12:44 PM

I respectfully disagree with that sentiment. I don’t want a group throwing out my vote because they have guns. That’s not unlike what is happening in Iran right now. What we can do is continue to make a ‘fuss’ where we can and inform people so as not to make the same mistake twice. Obviously, the ultimate decider will be the election winner’s policies and how they affect most people.

Can someone help me out with information?
What State is it that has laws allowing guns to be carried and displayed?
And second, don’t they have a very high crime rate?

jarhead0311 on June 23, 2009 at 1:41 PM

I think Alaska has the most liberal (LOL) open carry laws, but I’m sure there’s an NRA type or Alaska citizen that would know better. Florida has fairly gun owner-friendly laws. I believe open carry (like in a holster for a handgun and plainly visible) should be allowed anywhere. In government buildings, they can simply be checked and picked up later.

Can’t help but to think that those who have plans not only of theft, rape whatever but also of going out with a bang in some kind of shooting spree would think long and hard if they were used to there being maybe every 3 or so people out of 10 packing.

Check map: http://www.city-data.com/forum/florida/404097-okay-carry-6-shooter-hip-florida-9.html

I wonder how Yamamoto would assess us today…
hawksruleva on June 23, 2009 at 12:44 PM

Instead of ” … a rifle behind every blade of grass”, it might be something like ” … the left and right coasts are ours, the mountain states and hill will country remain theirs.”

Fact is, if people voted their guns, Obama wouldn’t be president. And if people won’t vote for their guns, they sure as hell won’t fight for them.

Rebar on June 23, 2009

I recently did ‘quit fighting for my guns‘ via the court system through the NRA, GOA, and JPFO. I wrote to those previously mentioned a nice letter explaining my position that the statists are just trying to break our piggy banks with the ridiculous and frivilous lawsuits on guns. I have decided to take my money and spend it on other useful items such as expanding my ammunition reloading capabilities, spending more time with friends and family camping and on the firing range, teaching new firearm owners, ensuring my trucks are current on maintenance, and the like, because everyday it is becoming more apparent to myself and others that this particular issue, along with others, may come to be settled outside of the courts someday. Likewise, within the same theme, I informed my state and federal representatives that I will no longer be bothering them with mountains of letters and email for the same reasons.

I have a million better things to do than raising my blood pressure watching cowardly statists using the courts to steal liberty from free people and pour my nickels into the coffers of attorneys. If nothing stupid happpens … outstanding! If something stupid happens … my family is prepared.

Places I can speak to … Arizona, Northern Nevada, Eastern Colorado, Utah, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Texas, Kentucky, Tennesse, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas … come and get’em … best of luck. I sure would not want that job.

Animator Girl on June 23, 2009 at 12:43 PM

Congratulations on your coming purchase Animator Girl. Ms Redneck recommends a Ruger GP100 in 357, practice, then check out conceal carry laws in your state.

“We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set,” he said Wednesday. “We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded.”

These folks are why we need the 2nd amendment.

The same thing has happened every time Statism has been tried, I believe a certain percentage are arming themselves in anticipation of the eventual collapse.

Chainsaw56 on June 23, 2009 at 2:11 PM

Exactly.

Thinking people are anticipating future eventualities. They are planning for success, not failure. For freedom, not slavery.

The rest are depending on the government, and trusting it to provide.

I don’t trust ANY branch of the U.S. government to stand up for my rights.Those days are long gone when we could.
Jeff from WI on June 23, 2009 at 2:12 PM

No one ever could EVER trust the government to stand up for the rights of citizens. That is the whole point of the Constitution.

Turning that founding principle upside down wasn’t just another run-of-the-mill stupid idea. It will be the death of us all.

Jeff from WI on June 23, 2009 at 2:03 PM

I will say it again…this was not a military operation, but an ATF operation.
Get it?
The ATF used military vehicles, they used three helicopters (initially) two being shot down, and the third being sent back.
Read the report…then respond, it is obvious you did not read the report.
Here is the final retort…you claimed it was the military.
They were informed, and some of their equipment was used by the ATF.
But in no way it was a military operation as you had stated.
So whine all you want, I am focusing on getting you to admit you posted wrong.
But you won’t, because you have backed yourself into an “ego corner”.
Concentrate on your original premise…that it was military, focus…now admit you were wrong.

right2bright on June 23, 2009 at 2:09 PM

Right…lol..I’d say “nice try” but it’s kind of an amateurish way to debate.

The question for YOU is: If you actually believe that this WAS NOT a military operation, but simply MILITARY weapons “borrowed” by the ATF/FBI, wouldn’t the military be then GUILTY of supplying the weapons that KNOWINGLY would be used against American Citizens, which is against the Posse Com. Act? By the way, those ATF agent we sure quick learners on driving an M1A1.

Obviously the government would certainly paint it that way. But how about the original question, why not simply arrest Koresh when he came into town, as the Sheriff noted?

Jeff from WI on June 23, 2009 at 2:08 PM

Because this post is about the 2nd amendment and how valuable it is.
Not to be used against the military, because they have never had an incident of wantonly attacking citizens.
But the 2nd amendment is for the protection from politicians and civilian forces.
They are trained to do the bidding of the political hacks, they are made to follow orders.
Ironically, it is the military, trained to follow orders, if they make sense…the military are the ones that actually have the law on their side, they can resist taking action if it is deemed “wrong”.
That’s the point of all of this…the 2nd amendment is to protect us (Americans) from the politicians.
Our military is the least of our worries, they won’t and don’t take action like a dictators military would.
Our military leaders are trained far beyond any politicians training, educated far beyond how they are schooled, and they have seen the ravages of death…a politician works in theory, hence a raid like Waco is a civilian operation…it would have been different with the military.

Women are buying firearms and ammo in RECORD numbers. Many are first time buyers. The gun show I was at last month, in Northern Wisconsin, had more women shopping than I have ever seen. They were not just there with their husbands/friends. They were HANDLING guns. They were BUYING guns.
The evidence is very strong that a significant number of people who voted for Obama are buying guns and ammo.
Why, possibly, would that be?
Yoop on June 23, 2009 at 1:37 PM

Some percentage of the sales can be attributed to the bandwagon effect and panic, but a lot has to be people reading between the lines.

Consider this quote from Alexander Tytler

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.

It can be argued that a certain percentage that voted for “The Won” did so because they were promised plunder from the ‘Rich’ in exchange for their vote.

What those people don’t understand is that ‘The Rich’ aren’t going to just stand by and take in the shorts. Eventually there won’t be enough resources that can be seized and used to buy votes, eventually the system will implode in on itself.

The same thing has happened every time Statism has been tried, I believe a certain percentage are arming themselves in anticipation of the eventual collapse.

Jeff from WI on June 23, 2009 at 2:03 PM

I will say it again…this was not a military operation, but an ATF operation.
Get it?
The ATF used military vehicles, they used three helicopters (initially) two being shot down, and the third being sent back.
Read the report…then respond, it is obvious you did not read the report.
Here is the final retort…you claimed it was the military.
They were informed, and some of their equipment was used by the ATF.
But in no way it was a military operation as you had stated.
So whine all you want, I am focusing on getting you to admit you posted wrong.
But you won’t, because you have backed yourself into an “ego corner”.
Concentrate on your original premise…that it was military, focus…now admit you were wrong.

You ask Koresch why he set fire to the compound, why he raped and molested children…then ask Jones why he had his followers commit suicide by drinking Kool-aid.
No one know why these nuts do this…but they do, and it almost always ends up in destruction and death.
Brought on by their ever increasing neurotic obsession with being a God.
Each of these “prophets” should never be defended, never be honored…and you defending this horrible excuse for a man is sickening.
He brought this upon himself, and he drug his followers down with him…not unlike so many of these in the past…and will be in the future.
You can’t blame someone for trying to uphold the law, you have to first look at the law breaker…and Koresch was the worst of the worst, those children had a choice with him, be burned to death or molested..both by his hands.
Sorry to disappoint you with reality, but Koresch is no hero or martyr…he was a murderer.

right2bright on June 23, 2009 at 2:04 PM

Actually, there is video that could show that at least one fire may have started with a thrown tear gas bomb.
Obviously the government would certainly paint it that way. But how about the original question, why not simply arrest Koresh when he came into town, as the Sheriff noted?