US will not engage Taliban near housing

posted at 2:32 pm on June 22, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

The US will change its rules of engagement in order to ease tensions between NATO and the Hamid Karzai government in Afghanistan.  New theater commander Gen. Stanley McChrystal will order American troops not to engage Taliban terrorists in houses in order to avoid the collateral damage that comes from urban warfare — and the political damage it does to Karzai.  Instead, US forces will retreat unless retreat is impossible (h/t HA reader Geoff A):

The top U.S. general in Afghanistan will soon formally order U.S. and NATO forces to break away from fights with militants hiding in Afghan houses so the battles do not kill civilians, a U.S. official said Monday.

The order would be one of the strongest measures taken by a U.S. commander to protect Afghan civilians in battle. American commanders say such deaths hurt their mission because they turn average Afghans against the government and U.S. and NATO forces.

Civilian casualties are a major source of friction between Afghan President Hamid Karzai and the U.S. The U.N. says U.S., NATO and Afghan forces killed 829 civilians in the Afghan war last year.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who took command of international forces in Afghanistan this month, has said his measure of effectiveness will be the “number of Afghans shielded from violence,” and not the number of militants killed.

McChrystal will issue orders within days saying troops may attack insurgents hiding in Afghan houses if the U.S. or NATO forces are in imminent danger and must return fire, said U.S. military spokesman Rear Adm. Greg Smith.

Wee Willy Keeler, the Hall of Fame batter, once said that the secret of hitting in baseball was to “hit ‘em where they ain’t.”  Keeler was right about baseball.  I’m skeptical that the same approach can work against terrorists who exploit civilians for targets as well as shields.  If we retreat from urban confrontation, it seems to me that we concede ground in the fight against the Taliban, and provide greater incentives to them for using homes in Afghanistan and Pakistan as bases for their terrorist operations.

To be fair, though, McChrystal — and Barack Obama — are in a tough spot.  There is no doubt that our aggressive pursuit of Taliban terrorists in residential areas creates a big, big problem for the democratically-elected Karzai government.  Civilian deaths have increased, and with them anger at NATO and the potential for more radicalization.  We need more cooperation from Afghanis against the Taliban in order to get better targeting that would alleviate the problem, but we can’t get that while we’re alienating Afghanis through collateral killings.

It’s the basic conundrum of fighting terrorists.  How do you kill them without making more of them?  Donald Rumsfeld once called that the “known unknown,” and we can add to that the risk of Karzai’s government falling for one much less inclined to allow NATO to operate against the Taliban and al-Qaeda.  There are no easy answers, and McChrystal’s new plan may produce better overall results — but it still seems like a step backwards.  We should watch carefully as to how McChrystal plans to keep Taliban out of the cities to avoid having the problem in the first place — and I’d bet he has a plan to do just that.

Update: JD Johannes keeps his powder dry, and agrees that this could be more effective than what we’d previously done — depending on the actual wording in the order.

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Comment pages: 1 2

So when I am driving through afganistan next year, the enemy is free to blow the living crap out of us while hiding in civilian houses.

Guess who will be violating this stupid ROE next year. It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

sonofdy on June 22, 2009 at 4:03 PM

This is Obama’s Monty Python strategy:

Whence attacked by the Man Made Disasters (MMDs)thou shalt run away!!! Thou shalt never fight the MMDs if they enter the doorway of a house. Thou shan’t yell “Olley Olley All Come Free!!” in an effort to trick them to come outside.

Alden Pyle on June 22, 2009 at 4:04 PM

So if the Taliban take over a urban center we do what? Send a congratulations card?

WashJeff on June 22, 2009 at 2:39 PM

Of course not! The Messiah, Barack Hussein Obama, will send tingles up their legs with his mellifluous voice whispering “Open Sesame”, and the Taliban will float out on magic carpets while burning incense in praise of the One (PBUH), who will find them meaningful employment as bartenders in Bermuda, to the everlasting delight of the subjects of Her Majesty, whose legs are still tingling from the One’s speech on her iPod and the loving embrace of Michelle’s beautiful arms.

Then the One will leap astride his white winged unicorn and give flight lessons to Harry Potter at the Hogwarts School…

/sarc

Steve Z on June 22, 2009 at 4:06 PM

This is Obama’s Monty Python strategy:

Whence attacked by the Man Made Disasters (MMDs)thou shalt run away!!! Thou shalt never fight the MMDs if they enter the doorway of a house. Thou shan’t yell “Olley Olley All Come Free!!” in an effort to trick them to come outside.

Alden Pyle on June 22, 2009 at 4:04 PM

The DEMS tried to consult the “Book Of Armaments” but it was too scary a title.

Jeff from WI on June 22, 2009 at 4:07 PM

fourdeucer on June 22, 2009 at 3:36 PM

When the Marines hit Lebanon in the 80s, they were at first FEARED. No one messed around in the US section of the city…

But then, the ROEs which the politicians forced on us took that fear away… ending up with both the Embassy and Barraks bombings in 83… we (and I use that term LITERALY) could not even load our weapons until AFTER the October 23 barraks bombing…

and even after, the politicians would not allow us to go get the ba$tards who did it… even though we KNEW who and where they were.

Within a year, we gave up on Lebanon… and Hezbolah has not cared about American intervention there since, and has had a free hand.

In the Middle East… you are either FEARED, or held in contempt… its a cultural distinction that Americans can’t get our minds around easily… but it does exist.

Romeo13 on June 22, 2009 at 4:12 PM

Instead, US forces will retreat unless retreat is impossible

I guess retreat could be impossible all the time.

Kini on June 22, 2009 at 4:13 PM

Why don’t we just give our guys toy guns and paint targets on them and get it over with?

“How do you kill them without making more of them?” You kill them, and if you make more of them by killing them, you kill them too. At some point they’ll either wise up a bit or run out of morons.

Grayson on June 22, 2009 at 4:13 PM

This commander should be releaved right now.

sonofdy on June 22, 2009 at 3:49 PM

IIRC, he was involved in some questionable documentation during the investigation into the death of Pat Tillman by friendly fire.

a capella on June 22, 2009 at 4:19 PM

That’s the same approach that the pacifist hippies want Israel take with Hamas and Hezbollah.

Falz on June 22, 2009 at 4:21 PM

It’s the basic conundrum of fighting terrorists. How do you kill them without making more of them?

Ed, you really have to be more conscientious in your use, or lack thereof, of sarc tags. I know that you’re joking, here, but the average reader would be led to think that you are serious, and thus, totally detached from reality, with little sense of history. I know better. I’m sure you were just trying to get some laughs with this.

progressoverpeace on June 22, 2009 at 4:21 PM

I guess we should’ve saved Dresden learned to bargain in German.

Reality Check on June 22, 2009 at 4:24 PM

We can always send those several thousand FEMA trailers, still scattered across the midwest, to Afghanistan. Turn in a Taliban, get on the list for a traler. Turn in a Taliban team or unit…get a trailer right away.

Solve two problems.

coldwarrior on June 22, 2009 at 4:25 PM

Romeo13 on June 22, 2009 at 4:12 PM

Rereading my own post, what I wrote is somwhat misleading…

I was not a Marine… I was a US Navy Electronic Tech, who helped support the Marines there… including trying to put the embassy back together…

Don’t want to mislead by poor writing…

Romeo13 on June 22, 2009 at 4:26 PM

It’s the basic conundrum of fighting terrorists. How do you kill them without making more of them?

Its called surrender.

Or you can continue helping them die for thier god.

sonofdy on June 22, 2009 at 4:29 PM

This problem has been going on for years now. We have an over reliance on “precision guided” munitions because we are afraid to send our boys in on foot.
The civilian casualties are caused mainly by bombs dropped from the air. At some point we have to realize that war is a dirty business and make the decisions to go to war based on that reality. Right now we go to war but don’t want to face the reality that the guys on the ground kicking in doors will take casualties.
If you go to war soldiers will be killed, no advance in technology by the Air force will make that go away. If you are willing to deal with that then go to war and win – but don’t go hand wringing over soldiers dying.
This is pu$$yfooting around by the administration and the higher military leaders. You change the ROW enough we eventually end up back home.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 4:32 PM

Romeo13 on June 22, 2009 at 4:26 PM

I think I already said to much on this subject. I would like to never see another Mai-Lai incident, or see our country taken over by Code Pinko’s. They will use every bit of misinformation at their disposal to undermine our military. I am not smart enough to second guess a General.
Lets hope the official orders are not as ominous as some seem to think.

fourdeucer on June 22, 2009 at 4:36 PM

On the other hand, it could be a brilliant strategy. The Taliban will become big homebodies now and with all the spare rooms and apartments occupied there will be nowhere that Ossama Bin Hiden can rent rooms and make plans to fly planes into the Empire State building! The very reason for being in the Afghan landfill is to deny space for AQ to plan (you would not think they would need much space let alone a whole country if there are only 6 or 7 hijackers of the best religion in the world) It could lead to a sugar free victory for all sides that would spare Islam any damage.

BL@KBIRD on June 22, 2009 at 4:43 PM

This is a look into Hussein’s mindset: If the bully steals your lunch money, run away. If you see him again, run away unless you can’t then just give it to him and beg him not to hurt you.

He has effectively hobbled our troops with such restrictive ROE’s we can never win.

Imagine being shipped over to Doucheghanistan just to be a friggin target? Oh, the troops will love this asshat.

Alden Pyle on June 22, 2009 at 4:44 PM

Unless civilians are more afraid of SUPPORTING the terrorists then they are of OPPOSING the terrorists, no victory can ever ever be achieved.

logis on June 22, 2009 at 4:48 PM

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 4:32 PM

Prudent commanders always attempt to minimize risk and resolve conflicts as quickly and efficiently as possible by using every weapon system at their disposal. The vast majority of tactical air support missions are called in after boots on the ground have encountered substantial resistance and not as a method to avoid knocking on doors. Please look before you leap!

dmann on June 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM

dmann on June 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM

Dude I was over there and have called in airstrikes myself. Most of the really big collateral damage comes from intelligence triggered, non-observed airstrikes.
Point is that bad use of this approach now has caused a change in ROE so that we can’t even go in kick down doors anymore to do real surgical strikes.
Prudent commanders know what it is like to fight an asymmetrical conflict and understand that air and artillery is not the best weapon.
You also forget that the motto is: Accomplish the mission, protect the force. Not the other way around.
This is not a video game and no amount of technology can win that war. Its grunts on the ground that are going to win this.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 4:59 PM

dmann on June 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM

Another thing: I am tired of this arm chair quarterbacking from home. Just bomb em, use this gadget, use that gadget. This thinking caused me to deploy with crappy body armor, an unarmored hummer, shitty boots and on and on, while the military spends millions on video game gadgets and the airforce gets more B2s. Every single war we have fought is won on the ground – that’s where the funds should go.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 5:09 PM

F….g idiot.

Now the poor bastards in the towns and villages will be held hostage by the ratbags.

davod on June 22, 2009 at 5:15 PM

It’s the basic conundrum of fighting terrorists. How do you kill them without making more of them?

Simple. Make as many as possible, and when they are all dead, the war is over. Brutal, but it is the truth of war. All wars.

Friendly21 on June 22, 2009 at 5:19 PM

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 5:09 PM

Given the assumptions you have made regarding my comments along with the accusation of arm chair quarterbacking I do believe you have represented yourself quite well…GRUNT.

dmann on June 22, 2009 at 5:26 PM

dmann on June 22, 2009 at 5:26 PM

I am proud to be a 3rd generation grunt fighting for my country.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 5:28 PM

Romeo13 on June 22, 2009 at 4:12 PM

Beat me too it. I was not in Beruit 1882-1984, but knew plenty who were there. The Rules of Engagement (ROE’s) were absolutely silly and cost lives, American lives.

If you are interested in Beruit and America’s involvement during that period, I recommend “The Root: The Marines in Beirut,August 1982-February 1984″ by Eric Hammel. After the bombing, Division CG General Al Gray gave unprecendented access to the Marines of 2nd Marine Division so the author could write his book. And the author pulled no punches. Once example concerning an ROE:

Paraphrasing this, but basically the ROE said that a US Servicemember could not engage an enemy unless the enemy was actively shooting at them, and they still had to have permission first to shoot back from higher authority. In the book, the Marines describe how a towel head would walk to a cafe on the edge of town near airport first thing in the morning with his AK-47 slung over his shoulder in plain view (but he wasn’t shooting it, yet). The turd had breakfeast and then proceeded to his fighing position closer to the airport where he would spend the day shooting at the Marines. When it got late in the day, the turd slung his rifle back over his shoulder (now not shooting it) and walked back to the cafe for dinner before heading home for the night, just to return the next day and do it all over again.

And that’s not the worst example, just the silliest.

We should work hard to prevent collateral damage, but I am suspect of this announcement. First, why announce it? Part of the strategy to allow the Taliban to get their numbers up and collective spines up enough to come out and fight? I’m not sure. But ROE’s should never increase the danger for American Servicemembers, that much I’m sure of.

Hog Wild on June 22, 2009 at 5:41 PM

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 5:28 PM

And you should be, I’m proud of you too, thanks!

dmann on June 22, 2009 at 5:42 PM

They need to use robots to check the houses. There are now very small military robots (my company makes them) that can go into houses, engage the enemy and avoid civilian casualties. It is possible to see who is in a room and even talk to them without firing a shot.

Buford Gooch on June 22, 2009 at 5:48 PM

dmann on June 22, 2009 at 5:42 PM

Thank you – so please believe me that this is a bad thing and will get more soldiers killed.

Prudent commanders always attempt to minimize risk and resolve conflicts as quickly and efficiently as possible by using every weapon system at their disposal

This is true but almost there is no way to use every weapons system and abide by the ROE as it stood before. The enemy is not visible enough to bomb or even mortar. You have to go and dig them out if you can find them.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 5:48 PM

Buford Gooch on June 22, 2009 at 5:48 PM

OMG another gadget guy. People this stuff does not work in the sh!thole know as Afghanistan. It takes soldiers kicking in the door and shooting the bad guy in the head. There is no easy alternative.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 5:50 PM

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 5:50 PM

You are mistaken. The soldiers still kick in the door, they just put the robot in to look around and take the bullets before going in and shooting the bad guys. The robots fit in their rucksacks.

Buford Gooch on June 22, 2009 at 5:53 PM

Just last month 140 civilians were killed by the US in one strike. That helps no one but the enemy.

lexhamfox on June 22, 2009 at 2:48 PM

Well, it depends on who is “reporting” this. Many such claims in the past have proven to be false.

Just curious-how did the massive civilian casualties at Dresden “help” Hitler? And how did the massive civilian casualties in Hiroshima and Nagasaki “help” the Emperor?

In reality, dropping the A-bombs on Japan saved hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides.

Del Dolemonte on June 22, 2009 at 5:59 PM

Buford Gooch on June 22, 2009 at 5:53 PM

Have you ever seen the inside of an Afghan mud hut? Unless it had wheels 6 feet high it’s not going to navigate around at all. Plus what am I going to leave behind that I need know in my rucksack to carry that thing. When it’s looking around it better be bullet proof since the bad guys are shot at it, and on top of that I lose the element of surprise sitting around the front door remote controlling a robot and become a stationary target. I’d rather throw a flash bang and do a forced entry.
Good for the police here – not so good over in the ME.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 5:59 PM

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 5:59 PM

Well, it seems to be doing the job so far.

Buford Gooch on June 22, 2009 at 6:01 PM

Buford Gooch on June 22, 2009 at 6:01 PM

Who told you that – the procurement officer? Just because the military buys it does not mean the guys who have to use it like it.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 6:05 PM

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 6:05 PM
We made it for and with the guys who use it. We have put none in the field through procurement officers.

Buford Gooch on June 22, 2009 at 6:07 PM

Caved in. How do you win now? All fire fights are going to happen around civilians. Doh? Read the Koran or the history of Islam, for Christ’s sake! Don’t get it? Try harder!

LarryG on June 22, 2009 at 7:17 PM

In addition, they’re NOT to engage the enemy near a Drive In theater.

Jeff from WI on June 22, 2009 at 7:44 PM

Del Dolemonte on June 22, 2009 at 5:59 PM

Those are the numbers reported by the Afghan government. The Pentagon disputes the numbers but does not dispute the fact that protocols were ignored in the attack.

Comparing an insurgency to all out war doesn’t work and you know it. We are not at war with Afghanistan are we Del? Do I really have to explain why civilian casualties help the enemy in this type of conflict?

“When we are in position, one of the things we’ll do is review all of our rules of engagement and all the instructions to our units, with the emphasis that we are fighting for the population.

“That involves protecting them both from the enemy and from unintended consequences of our operation, because we know that although an operation may be conducted for the right reason, if it has negative effects it can have a negative outcome for everyone.” Gen Patreaus at the onset of the review…

lexhamfox on June 22, 2009 at 8:28 PM

We have gone from the Churchill philosophy of fighting them in the streets to playing nice. One more time politicians have tied the hands of the military when victory was in sight.

Kissmygrits on June 23, 2009 at 10:17 AM

Comparing an insurgency to all out war doesn’t work and you know it. We are not at war with Afghanistan are we Del? Do I really have to explain why civilian casualties help the enemy in this type of conflict?

I think we are at war with Afghanistan, if Afghanistan wants a negotiated peace with Al Qaeda/Taliban. I thought we weren’t accepting neutrality?

Please do explain why we can’t kill, say, 3 million hostiles who hit America first. That’s just a guess, not an upward limit. I have no upward limit.

Have you ever seen the inside of an Afghan mud hut? Unless it had wheels 6 feet high it’s not going to navigate around at all. Plus what am I going to leave behind that I need know in my rucksack to carry that thing. When it’s looking around it better be bullet proof since the bad guys are shot at it, and on top of that I lose the element of surprise sitting around the front door remote controlling a robot and become a stationary target. I’d rather throw a flash bang and do a forced entry.

I thought our guys cracked this in 1942. Flamethrowers and grenades kill people you can’t see. Close the hole with a satchel charge. Repeat as necessary.

Chris_Balsz on June 23, 2009 at 10:34 AM

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