A proper obituary: Neda’s relatives remember her to the LA Times

posted at 4:55 pm on June 22, 2009 by Allahpundit

Unbearable.

“She was a person full of joy,” said her music teacher and close friend Hamid Panahi, who was among the mourners at her family home on Sunday, awaiting word of her burial. “She was a beam of light. I’m so sorry. I was so hopeful for this woman.”…

The second of three children, she studied Islamic philosophy at a branch of Tehran’s Azad University, until deciding to pursue a career in the tourism industry. She took private classes to become a tour guide, including Turkish language courses, friends said, hoping to some day lead groups of Iranians on trips abroad.

Travel was her passion, and with her friends she saved up enough money for package tours to Dubai, Turkey and Thailand. Two months ago, on a trip to Turkey, she relaxed along the beaches of Antalya, on the Mediterranean coast.

She loved music, especially Persian pop, and was taking piano classes, according to Panahi, who is in his 50s, and other friends. She was also an accomplished singer, they said.

But she was never an activist, they added, and she began attending the mass protests only because of a personal sense of outrage over the election results.

Follow the link for her last words and a description of the scene in the Agha-Soltan family home after the murder. Her friend claims she warned her not to go to the protests, to which Neda allegedly responded, “Don’t worry. It’s just one bullet and its over.”

It’s not over, though. Take it away, Maverick.

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Texas Gal on June 22, 2009 at 7:33 PM

Yeah sorry. I don’t even really know why I made anything of it. It was pretty nitpicky of me.
I guess I just didn’t want the whole thing to devolve into name calling.

Grayson on June 22, 2009 at 8:26 PM

Dr. Steve you need to realize with whom you are dealing with:

Bwahahahahahaha!!!

csdeven on June 22, 2009 at 2:54 PM

It isn’t easy for me on issues like this, but your commitment to explain your position rationally helps.

csdeven on June 22, 2009 at 2:59 PM

CWforFreedom on June 22, 2009 at 8:26 PM

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 8:18 PM

Beat me to it!

All of this sentimental nonsense strongly resembles liberal activism (Darfur

I’m speechless. Please, share with us the grievous moral failings that place all those refugees outside the realm of our concerns. Tell us why we’re fools to prefer a 12-year-old Toposa girl to a Janjawid.

DrSteve on June 22, 2009 at 8:27 PM

I find that hard to believe. I bet you go on moralizing about another pet peeve of yours as soon as you have the chance.
But let’s give it a try. How about the four things things I mentioned that could be done?

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 8:14 PM

So you attempt to insult me and then ask for a rational discussion? Couldn’t you have simply asked for a rational discussion?

I hope you see how you have and do contribute to the nastiness on these threads. Now, you had your jab and I had mine. Lets put the past behind us and start over. OK?

At any rate, you 4 suggestions…

1) Yes Ochimpy should say that and honestly, I thought he did make a half-assed attempt at it. I would want a much stronger show of support from Ochimpy.

2) There is no way those clowns should still be coming. Ochimpy is a despicable traitor for meeting with them.

3) I’d would support helping the Iranians to do that with no direct link to us.

4) Not being a computer expert, I don’t know how that would happen. But I know it isn’t easy to do here in the US, and since it isn’t top secret technology, I’m sure the Iranians could thwart any attempt we would make using the same technology we do.

I agree we should be doing waaaaaay more than Ochimpy and his Marxist ilk are doing. But he wont because he NEEDS the hard liners in charge and he NEEDS to be the one that fixes their country in the exact way he has said he wants to.

His narcissism will become legendary.

csdeven on June 22, 2009 at 8:28 PM

Yes, anyone who is acting as if this girl was their daughter should get over themselves. If people are pissed off fine, but mourning this girl minimizes both her life and her death. And it strongly resembles how liberals act, like the girl who was supposedly raped by the Duke players, for instance. Or the people in New Orleans after Katrina. People who act as if every bad thing that happens in the universe is personally felt by them in some non-superficial way echoes the liberalism of Voltaire or the Transcendentalists. Add to this the fact that this girl will be used by Americans as a face of a movement and you have certified liberal activism.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:29 PM

Smith you have no heart and probably no brain

See the Wizard

CWforFreedom on June 22, 2009 at 8:31 PM

but mourning this girl minimizes both her life and her death

Excuse me? Does that actually make sense to you?

Esthier on June 22, 2009 at 8:31 PM

Why don’t you run along, then, and lecture the people who actually are exhibiting the simplistic views you find so disturbing?

See Texas Gal’s 6:24 http://bit.ly/kwR7d

…All of this sentimental nonsense strongly resembles liberal activism (Darfur, animal rights, racism, diseases, etc.). Now this girls death will be used by people who do not actually care about her in order to serve their own political ends. I think that on this point, this site is no different from liberal sites, Marxist or otherwise.

Agreed. Hence my effort to tackle this issue intellectually and with reason, not fall for the emotional propaganda.

And for the record, I’m no non-interventionist type, firm supporter of the Iraq war, etc., but something can be said about whether or not democracy is even compatible in the Middle East, because of Islam. Putting their violent track record in consideration with this current conflict, makes me again, hesitate to be all gungho about supporting the protesters.

A Capella, what have I done besides disagree with the prevailing sentiment on this site? What did I do to you?

Evidently that’s all it takes to be labeled a troll and personally attacked, for daring not to toe the party line.

jjraines on June 22, 2009 at 8:32 PM

Dr. Steve, my point is that it is not a part of conservatism or any Christian tradition that teaches that we have an equal obligation to help all people all of the time. That comes from the liberalism of the Enlightenment and the Modern Era. Most people have a full time job being good citizens, husbands, fathers, and friends. Dedicating yourself to the welfare of people who are utterly alien to you implies both a neglect of those who are bound to you naturally and a confidence that you know what is best for all people all of the time.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:33 PM

If you consider that a well laid argument and not inflammatory then I would like to see inflammatory from you. The post is almost certainly designed to piss people of, bit because of the content but the tone.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 8:18 PM

Did I say it was a well made argument? I said it was a valid opinion. Two different things. If you would read my responses to him, you’ll see that the two of us are pretty much on the same page. I just choose to give him the benefit of the doubt. So far, he seems to be explaining his feelings quite well.

csdeven on June 22, 2009 at 8:34 PM

Alright, I’m probably out for the night. Enjoy the thread without my nastiness.

Esthier on June 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM

The accusation that I have no heart betrays a lack of real connection with other people. Think about it. What kind of person would I be if i cared for all people the way I care for my mother or child? I am either a saint or, more probably, a relatively uncaring person. Children cannot be cared for with merely a general benevolence to humanity, they need the fanatical care of a mother’s love. Mourning a stranger as if I can truly have empathy for her in any truly meaningful way is certainly trivializing. I think that makes perfect sense.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:37 PM

I count 2 insults, a generalization and a loathsome exhortation to indifference to human suffering. And that’s just in the first paragraph.

Where I’ve seen an actual argument in that pile of horse manure I’ve responded to it.

DrSteve on June 22, 2009 at 8:22 PM

I see a commenter who is expressing his opinion in an emotional way. I took no offense to his comments and simply tried to engaged him rationally. He does have valid points that can be discussed rationally.

I think we should allow for the fact that people respond to situations emotionally at times even if those reactions seem crass. We don’t always have to fix our weaknesses when we see them do we?

csdeven on June 22, 2009 at 8:39 PM

Smith… you meant to tell me that you have never at least seen someone in the news who died or was injured badly and felt a strong sense of empathy?

CWforFreedom on June 22, 2009 at 8:40 PM

He wasn’t the best choice the GOP could have picked to run as President, but he speaks with conviction and an understanding on this issue. The man lived it.

And it was well said.

Asher on June 22, 2009 at 8:22 PM

We were betrayed by him and I’m not inclined to give him another chance. That isn’t easy either. My dad is a plank owner of the USS John S McCain. (DDG 36) I’ve always had a soft spot for the McCain family.

csdeven on June 22, 2009 at 8:41 PM

Her loved ones were outraged by the authorities’ order not to eulogize her, to loudly sing her praises and mourn her loss.

Her family was not allowed to memorialize her, but the world has.

If anyone doesn’t like me saying that, piss off (excuse my French). I think there are some here who really should be posting at Daily Kos.

moonsbreath on June 22, 2009 at 8:44 PM

Yes I have, but if every time I felt the same way I did when my grandfather died whenever I heard that anyone else died I, and everyone else, would be reduced to emotional impotence. Just like if I attempted to care for all people the way I care for my family and friends I would become charitably impotent, if that is a phrase. When I saw that this girl’s death was available for mass consumption on computer monitors so that people could watch it at their leisure next to their viral videos and porn or whatever, I thought that this had crossed the line into liberal sentimentality.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:46 PM

Innocent Smith is a borg.

moonsbreath on June 22, 2009 at 8:48 PM

She loved music… and was taking piano classes


Raindrops for Neda Agha Soltan.

Loxodonta on June 22, 2009 at 8:50 PM

You see, moonsbreath has a twitter post imploring people to turn their pages green in solidarity with Iran. Is that not similar to the pink ribbons used for breast cancer? My first comment might perhaps be vindicated yet. The world will never memorialize her the way her family and friends could. In fact, they will not memorialize her but mourn her because they loved her. I did not love her, and an attempt to act as if her death means as much to me as it does her family and friends and people who actually knew her would be both immature and insincere.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:50 PM

Yes, anyone who is acting as if this girl was their daughter should get over themselves. If people are pissed off fine, but mourning this girl minimizes both her life and her death. And it strongly resembles how liberals act, like the girl who was supposedly raped by the Duke players, for instance. Or the people in New Orleans after Katrina. People who act as if every bad thing that happens in the universe is personally felt by them in some non-superficial way echoes the liberalism of Voltaire or the Transcendentalists. Add to this the fact that this girl will be used by Americans as a face of a movement and you have certified liberal activism.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:29 PM

I can say with a certainty that some of the folks whom are arguing with you are decidedly NOT mourning for her as if she were a member of their family.

Having said that, I disagree with your premise that caring about her minimizes her life. We are humans and should feel something when someone is murdered. We should not carry it around as the family will, but a show of concern is decidedly human. And believe it or not, SOME liberals care for other people in an honest way.

I don’t think you need to worry, we are not going to go lurching down the path that the loony left is on. In a few days, we’ll get perspective.

csdeven on June 22, 2009 at 8:51 PM

I am not a borg, I am a human who does not get swept up in causes and faces on posters acting as if I am ready to go to Iran and fight demons. It is always liberals accusing conservatives of having no heart because they refuse to feign empathy for their causes and political goals. Now I am being accused of the same thing.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:53 PM

You see, moonsbreath has a twitter post imploring people to turn their pages green in solidarity with Iran.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:50 PM

I’m flattered that you would care to click on my name. Thanks.

moonsbreath on June 22, 2009 at 8:53 PM

Dedicating yourself to the welfare of people who are utterly alien to you implies both a neglect of those who are bound to you naturally and a confidence that you know what is best for all people all of the time.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:33 PM

As a person married to an aid worker who is in the Caspian area right now, and who was in Sudan mere months ago, let me tell you how wrong both those statements are.

DrSteve on June 22, 2009 at 8:54 PM

Everyone instinctively knows that perspective affects people. The pilot of the Enola Gay could never have individually killed every life taken by the atomic bomb. Soldier are always able to do their job easier when their is distance placed between them and their enemy. Similarly, when a girl’s death is viewed through a computer monitor, it is almost completely stripped of its humanity. Would anyone want their own daughter’s death to be so easily accessible, as if it was the next video of the week. Everyone speaking of this girl as if they knew her will probably forget in a week. Her death will be as meaningful as the death of a character in a movie.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:57 PM

Everyone speaking of this girl as if they knew her will probably forget in a week. Her death will be as meaningful as the death of a character in a movie.

Keep your sociopathic projections to yourself.

DrSteve on June 22, 2009 at 8:59 PM

I am not denigrating actual aid that is given to actual people, I am saying that this obligation is not standard. It is over and above the normal moral obligations that human beings have. I would never be so presumptuous as to judge you and your wife for what you do, but at least you would agree that teaching somebody that they are responsible for the welfare of the whole world will more likely make him apathetic than saintly.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:01 PM

Sociopathic? You really think that? I cannot believe that what I am saying is so utterly alien to you. Liberals do this all of the time. They are always parading faces around in hopes that people will join their causes and movements. We all know that Democrat politicians do not really care about the black community, for example, but that does not prevent them from making huge shows of empathy for the plight of the poor. Our own president has done this.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:04 PM

Her death will be as meaningful as the death of a character in a movie.

Well, this speaks volumes. This isn’t a movie of the week. I think you’re the one who will forget her in a week, and you know what? I don’t really care, you’re free to feel that way, as I am free to care.

And now, I say good-bye, farewell, good night as I try not to respond past three replies. Kinda like, three strikes you’re out.

moonsbreath on June 22, 2009 at 9:04 PM

csdeven on June 22, 2009 at 8:28 PM

Even steven.
#4 can be done and would force them to shut down the whole internet.
Anyway, all of these are ideas that I just came up with. I hope all the people at state, the CIA etc can come up with many more ways to covertly help out. But without any will at the top nothing will happen.
The problem is that the O has his mind set on the idea that once he sits down with dinnderjacket he will snake charm him like he did the American people. The problem is that he will be played like a cheap fiddle and get nothing.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 9:08 PM

Moonsbreath, you are a perfect example of what I am saying. You are displaying the color green on an internet page. A girl was murdered. Murdered! How trivializing.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:10 PM

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:57 PM

You have to remember that the other part of that is hate. Soldiers in WWII were taught to hate the Japs and Germans so they could kill them.
If I had witnessed the girl’s death first hand I would have even been more affected than I am. Her death puts a face on the suffering of the people in Iran. I think you seem to confuse that fact that her death is accessible as a you-tube video somehow as minimizing the event. If it were staged for TV I would agree, but as it is it is a representation of reality.
I still remember the symbolic images of the Berlin wall coming down, the face of the girl in Vietnam who is fleeing from Napalm and the face and screams of Nick Berg. Some might forget but I will not.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 9:14 PM

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:04 PM

I am obviously getting tired. I merely meant to suggest that you’re speaking somewhat presumptuously (and uncharitably) about others’ motives, states of mind, degrees of rationality, etc. It’s one thing to speak for yourself, it’s quite another to assert a claim about the superficiality of other people’s concerns. And to do so in the service of what I think is a pretty short-sighted argument about duties to others, and consequences… geopolitics is not some late-night dorm-room bull session. Antiseptic foreign policy is as big an abstraction as what we were accused of laboring after in an earlier post that springs to mind.

Since I am no longer able to discuss all of this in a measured fashion I am going to bed.

DrSteve on June 22, 2009 at 9:14 PM

… with apologies to all.

DrSteve on June 22, 2009 at 9:15 PM

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:10 PM

I have around my wrist a bracelet with the name of my buddy who was murdered in Iraq by a roadside bomb. I am also trivializing his death?

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 9:16 PM

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:50 PM

Another apologist for tyranny. Sad.

theCork on June 22, 2009 at 9:18 PM

Stop accusing me of things I did not say. I think abortion is murder, I do not, therefore, go up to pro-choice people and say that they like murder. I think that they are mistaken in their thinking. In the same way I think many here are mistaken in their thinking. I disagree with them and you. Why can I not disagree without being accused of calling people irrational, crazy, or whatever. I did not say that.
I will discuss geopolitics if you like, but the fact that I am not saying what you think I should does not mean that my argument is neither valid nor true.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:20 PM

theCork, you are a being shallow and vacuous. I am not an apologist for tyranny so quit the inquisitorial nonsense. I say what I say, nothing more or less. You can’t divine some sinister purpose behind my words, and your less than charitable interpretation of what I said shows a lack of understanding on your part. Why are people saying such nasty things to me when I just do not agree with them? Maybe I am at the DailyKos.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:23 PM

Dpierson, please do not misconstrue what I am saying. If your are attempting to personalize this and say that I am a monster, then stop. Your friend was your friend and I doubt that you are trivializing his death. But do you think I am cold because your friend’s death and life could never mean as much to me as it does to you? I think that is just common sense.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:25 PM

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:23 PM

You don’t get it do you.

A. Here is my opinion, what do you guys think?
Vs.
B. You people are pathetic for thinking what you think – here is my opinion

Which one do you think will get a positive response?

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 9:26 PM

Dpierson, please do not misconstrue what I am saying. If your are attempting to personalize this and say that I am a monster, then stop. Your friend was your friend and I doubt that you are trivializing his death. But do you think I am cold because your friend’s death and life could never mean as much to me as it does to you? I think that is just common sense.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:25 PM

Ah now we are getting somewhere. Of course not and none of us can or do claim that the girl’s death means more to us than it does to her parents BUT all of us can have the same amount of feeling towards her death as any person not directly related to her can have.
You see where I am coming from. I am not interspersing myself in the grief hierarchy among her friends and family but I feel about as bad about her death as a stranger could.

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 9:31 PM

See Texas Gal’s 6:24 http://bit.ly/kwR7d

jjraines on June 22, 2009 at 8:32 PM

LOL…

How old are you? You exhibit the symptoms of someone who is easily influenced and has not yet experienced much of the world.

Texas Gal on June 22, 2009 at 9:37 PM

Which is hardly anything. But remember, her death is now the viral video of the week, and people are being desensitized to the death and carnage that is the reality for so many people. She is also going to be used, already, in fact, for political purposes. Memorializing her on the internet is an insult to her life and death and people are already making tributes to her as if she is merely a symbol and not a flesh and blood human being.
I did not say that you were pathetic. I am saying that it is pathetic to become inappropriately sentimental over a stranger’s death because it is the popular thing to do right now. The next thing we’ll see is people with her face on t-shirts. It is inhuman in the literal sense.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:38 PM

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:38 PM

At first I was put off by what you wrote earlier on in the thread (the comparison to Marxists), but I think I have a better understanding of where you’re coming from. I gather from your handle that you’re a Chestertonian, and perhaps a paleoconservative Catholic.

If that is truly the case, your take on the video of the young woman’s death makes more sense: I do not wish to see the video, and yet, as commenters have pointed it, she has become iconic of the protest movement. I would not go so far as to say that memorializing her on the internet is ‘pathetic’, but certainly that we must be cautious against becoming swept up in sentiment; expressions of sorrow at her death and the deaths and persecutions of her countrymen, prayers for the repose of her soul and for the comfort of her family and friends, as well as prayers for peace and freedom for the Iranian people, those are goods for which we pray with urgent sincerity.

That said, the reticence on the part of the Administration, the refusal to stand up and use the word ‘freedom’, the continued willingness of that same Administration to invite representatives of this repressive regime to our embassies on July 4, our Independence Day, is insulting and outrageous. That our President would, with full knowledge of the brutalities committed by the regime in Iran, still try to cozy up to them, is a profound and glaring betrayal of our values as freedom-loving people.

Fallen Sparrow on June 22, 2009 at 10:10 PM

Texas Gal on June 22, 2009 at 9:37 PM

Just citing an example of the simplistic and hostile mentality I was mildly criticizing, as requested. Btw, you may want to look up the definition of “twat,” lol.

jjraines on June 22, 2009 at 10:15 PM

dpierson on June 22, 2009 at 9:31 PM

Well said dpierson.

There’s also the simple fact that for some of us on this board, Neda reminds us well enough of school & family friends who’ve faced the same risks from these goons for decades now, when traveling to/from Iran. We’ve had to deal with the thought of what would happen if they went over one day and never came back, or were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got their heads blown off by ‘accident’.

Given this crap has gone on for 3 decades now it’s not exactly the first time this has come up. Neda’s death at the hands of these regime lap-dog kosk-shes just brings it that much closer.

RD on June 22, 2009 at 10:26 PM

Evidently that’s all it takes to be labeled a troll and personally attacked, for daring not to toe the party line.

jjraines on June 22, 2009 at 8:32 PM

?? Let’s have some proof I called anyone a troll. I do get a bit tired of having threads hijacked, so I usually just leave.

a capella on June 22, 2009 at 10:35 PM

Which is hardly anything. But remember, her death is now the viral video of the week, and people are being desensitized to the death and carnage that is the reality for so many people.

WTF? You’re projecting.

She is also going to be used, already, in fact, for political purposes.

This is neither inherently good or inherently bad. Or inherently in good or bad taste. Whether it is or not depends on the situation and/or the one doing the ‘using’, don’t you agree?

Memorializing her on the internet is an insult to her life and death and people are already making tributes to her as if she is merely a symbol and not a flesh and blood human being.

You’re projecting again. Those whose reactions I’ve seen are affected on a personal level, not on some symbolic plane. Don’t project this nonsense onto me or mine, please.

I did not say that you were pathetic. I am saying that it is pathetic to become inappropriately sentimental over a stranger’s death because it is the popular thing to do right now.

For some of us she’s a little closer than a stranger, she’s practically family. I’d watch it with the ‘stranger’ epithet. Virtually guaranteed she’s the cousin of someone well-known within the community here in the States.

The next thing we’ll see is people with her face on t-shirts. It is inhuman in the literal sense.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:38 PM

Martyrdom’s a tricky thing. I’m not going to concede to the false premise that the prospect of a T-shirt is prima facie evidence of something bad, nor that wearing T-shirts takes someone’s humanity away, nor that those wearing the T-shirts have the power to take someone’s humanity away.

IMHO it’s not the same thing at all as with the Che T-shirt epidemic. He was a monster with no human soul, no humanity to steal. In light of the shoddy comparison and false equivalence this sets up, I’m willing to take the situation with Neda one step at a time. Is that all right with you?

RD on June 22, 2009 at 10:51 PM

Btw, you may want to look up the definition of “twat,” lol.

jjraines on June 22, 2009 at 10:15 PM

I looked it up in the Urban Dictionary:

twat – An inept person.

And it has your picture.

Texas Gal on June 22, 2009 at 11:13 PM

theCork, you are a being shallow and vacuous. I am not an apologist for tyranny so quit the inquisitorial nonsense. I say what I say, nothing more or less. You can’t divine some sinister purpose behind my words, and your less than charitable interpretation of what I said shows a lack of understanding on your part. Why are people saying such nasty things to me when I just do not agree with them? Maybe I am at the DailyKos.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:23 PM

Ascribing every political movement in the world to a Marxist conspiracy. Negative reaction to the word “democracy”. Regarding everyone else as either a Marxist enemy or an unwitting tool of their conspiracy… you wouldn’t be a Bircher, would you?

I used the word “apologist” because that’s what you’re doing. You’re doing everything in your power to minimize criticism of an evil, oppressive, corrupt, theocratic, tyrannical regime. You *are* acting as their apologist. You have uttered not one word of criticism of the regime in Iran. Not. A. Word. You’re the greatest defender I’ve met of the mullahs so far. The issue is not foreign intervention on this thread, it’s mere criticism of a totalitarian state.

Innocent, was Eisenhower a communist stooge? That will answer the JBS question.

theCork on June 22, 2009 at 11:15 PM

“Take hold of buckler and shield, And rise up for my help.”

Limerick on June 23, 2009 at 12:24 AM

I am not projecting, but I am generalizing. Watching a real girl die on a computer screen is beyond dehumanizing and is sure to desensitize people to the reality of death. Just because this will not happen in every case does not mean that I am projecting, I think that this observation should be obvious. I would be unable to watch a loved one die on my monitor yet I am sure that people have watched her death multiple times.
I would agree that a persons death may serve political ends and that this may not always be an evil. However, my initial criticism was twofold: 1) We should not interfere with the internal politics of other countries as a matter of policy and 2) this girl’s death is being popularly memorialized by people who have never known her in order to interfere with the internal politics of another country. I therefore think that the use of her death is wholly wrong. Even calling her a martyr shows that people only care about her death inasmuch as it will advance their liberal democratic agenda.
I do not mean to make this particular topic seem so contentious, but my instinct always go against the frenzied fervor of mass movements. It looks as if people have eaten up the death of a girl in order to strengthen their democratic fervor. Emotionally speaking, I think it is quite awful.
the Cork, you are being unfair in your reading of me. I said nothing of conspiracies or anything in defense of the current regime. You are sniffing out an agenda that is not there. You can accuse people of being Birchers, but they will always accuse you of being a neocon. I would rather say things of substance than hurl names at you. Also, is it really so hard to imagine us going to war with Iran in the very near future? I do not.
Fallen Sparrow: Chesterton is one of my favorite authors (hence the name Innocent Smith) and I am indeed Catholic. By the way, I know ‘Marxist’ gets thrown around as an epithet but, after all, it is a definite ideology with a history and I do not use it merely to sound dramatic, I thought the comparison was apt.

Innocent Smith on June 23, 2009 at 12:34 AM

Innocent Smith on June 23, 2009 at 12:34 AM

As of this posting, this makes 33 out 248 posts, for 13% of the “A proper obituary: Neda” thread, using 3,200 words, but never the word “Neda.”

Loxodonta on June 23, 2009 at 1:38 AM

The Voice cries out from

the wilderness of Iran

how will you answer

– Haiku in memoriam to Neda

Loxodonta on June 23, 2009 at 1:38 AM

Watching a real girl die on a computer screen is beyond dehumanizing and is sure to desensitize people to the reality of death

I strongly disagree with your hypothesis. And based on your statement:

However, my initial criticism was twofold: 1) We should not interfere with the internal politics of other countries as a matter of policy and 2) this girl’s death is being popularly memorialized by people who have never known her in order to interfere with the internal politics of another country

Evidently, neither do you. You fear not that the video of her death dehumanizes her death, you fear it will personalize her death. And your right, it will.

Just as the media pushed for the ban to be lifted on the pictures of the coffins of our military dead returning at Dover AFB because they know those pictures will personalize the sacrifice, just like the pictures of our dead military in body bag returning home from Vietnam contributed to Americans turning against the war.

Texas Gal on June 23, 2009 at 1:53 AM

Innocent, you’ve answered my question.

BTW, I’m not a neocon. I’m a conservative Catholic who has always been conservative from the time I could think for myself.

Neda’s death will spell the eventual overthrow of some Middle East dictators. Please stop defending them.

theCork on June 23, 2009 at 2:52 AM

HOW IN GOD’S NAME DID THIS MAN LOSE THE ELECTION TO THAT MAN?
HE IS A LEADER.

bloggless on June 23, 2009 at 7:20 AM

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Coronagold on June 23, 2009 at 8:32 AM

Moonsbreath, you are a perfect example of what I am saying. You are displaying the color green on an internet page. A girl was murdered. Murdered! How trivializing.
Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:10 PM

I wasn’t going to reply again to you, but I changed my mind. FYI, since you seem to be so interested in what I do on the internet, I joined Twitter the other day to follow what was going on in Iran. I have a green overlay over my icon to support those brave people in Iran. Why you feel it’s important to mock me about this, I haven’t a clue, however, it is very telling about you.

In 1979, I was 21-years-old when that revolution took place in Iran. Up until that time, the Middle East seemed like it was a universe away. Through news coverage, it became a bit closer. I even wasted energy back then and worried about our hostages too. Through my sister, I knew one Iranian, who went back to fight against the revolution. Mo was never heard from again. Throughout these 30 years, the world has gotten a little bit smaller, and those places that I grew-up thinking were a universe away, are next door.

Now, I am witnessing a new revolution, started by the children of the people who participated in the last revolution. I believe, as our founding fathers believed, that freedom is precious. So, I support anyone, anywhere, who is willing to lay down their lives for freedom. I can only hope that if I were in their place, I would be as brave as they are.

Then there is the death of Neda. She has become the symbol of the youth of Iran, who are fighting for their freedom. Whether I or others here feel emotions and care, is really none of your business. However, you made it your business to post on here and (for lack of a better word) mock others, like myself.

You are the one trivializing the events in Iran and Neda’s death. I have the impression of you that if you had lived during WWII, you would have been trivializing the concentration camps in Germany. I suppose you’ve never seen those pictures either.

As far as watching Neda’s death, I did not take it lightly and I had to think hard about watching it and prepare myself. For me personally, I felt it was important to watch the video because if no one watches, then there are no witnesses to the atrocities.

moonsbreath on June 23, 2009 at 9:23 AM

To Innocent Smith, I also have a blog about canine diabetes & cushings. My dog, Hunter, died December 28, 2008 from it. You know, since you are interested in what I do on the internet and all.

http://k9-hunter.blogspot.com/

moonsbreath on June 23, 2009 at 9:38 AM

Her death is not at all being personalized. To everyone here her death is only an abstraction used in the service of a movement.
the Cork: I did not question who you are. You questioned me. I haven’t once defended a dictator. Please show me where I have.
moonsbreath: Forgive me if I seemed like I was mocking you. I was trying to point out the fact that the coverage of Iranian protesters and the death of a girl have become internet fads and that it is highly inappropriate to both be overly concerned with the internal politics of Iran and to attempt to memorialize a girl in an internet combox.

Innocent Smith on June 23, 2009 at 9:40 AM

I am not really interested. I do think that what I pointed out was a good example of what I was talking about. I still do.

Innocent Smith on June 23, 2009 at 9:41 AM

Does Obama speech get credit for this too?

Reality Check on June 23, 2009 at 10:25 AM

Mourning a stranger as if I can truly have empathy for her in any truly meaningful way is certainly trivializing. I think that makes perfect sense.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:37 PM

No one is doing that. Quit putting up strawmen.

I think we should allow for the fact that people respond to situations emotionally at times even if those reactions seem crass.

csdeven on June 22, 2009 at 8:39 PM

So you forgive his crass response but find me worse for pointing it out what it was. Got it.

I did not love her, and an attempt to act as if her death means as much to me as it does her family and friends and people who actually knew her would be both immature and insincere.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 8:50 PM

No one is doing that.

But remember, her death is now the viral video of the week, and people are being desensitized to the death and carnage that is the reality for so many people.

No, you can’t have it both ways. Which is it, Innocent? Are we caring too much about her death or are we desensitized to it?

I am saying that it is pathetic to become inappropriately sentimental over a stranger’s death because it is the popular thing to do right now.

Innocent Smith on June 22, 2009 at 9:38 PM

Actually, it’s not yet popular, but that it is what we’re working towards, getting the Iranian people as much publicity as possible so that their government will feel our eyes on them, knowing they won’t be able to get away with this.

And seriously, read that sentence. Because that is what people here are doing, you are calling them pathetic. To pretend otherwise is to further insult our intelligence.

Esthier on June 23, 2009 at 10:49 AM

moonsbreath: Forgive me if I seemed like I was mocking you. I was trying to point out the fact that the coverage of Iranian protesters and the death of a girl have become internet fads and that it is highly inappropriate to both be overly concerned with the internal politics of Iran and to attempt to memorialize a girl in an internet combox.

Innocent Smith on June 23, 2009 at 9:40 AM

You’ve been mocking all of us since you joined this thread, and for some reason it rubbed most of us the wrong way.

Now, I remember hearing as a child the phrase, “what is popular isn’t always right, and what’s right isn’t always popular,” but you seem to be of the impression that “what is popular is never right,” which is really just as ridiculous as its opposite.

Just because this has the potential to become popular, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done or that getting the word out about these people is somehow wrong.

Esthier on June 23, 2009 at 10:56 AM

From WSJ article in headlines:

When Mr. Alipour didn’t return home that night, his parents began to worry. All day, they had heard gunshots ringing in the distance. His father, Yousef, first called his fiancée and friends. No one had heard from him.

At the crack of dawn, his father began searching at police stations, then hospitals and then the morgue.

Upon learning of his son’s death, the elder Mr. Alipour was told the family had to pay an equivalent of $3,000 as a “bullet fee”—a fee for the bullet used by security forces—before taking the body back, relatives said.

I suppose Neda’s family will have to pay for the bullet that killed her, too.

Disturb the Universe on June 23, 2009 at 11:08 AM

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