Iran escalation: Rafsanjani’s daughter arrested; Update: Full speed ahead on negotiations, says Lugar; Update: Rafsanjani’s daughter released; Update: Clerics mulling replacing Khamenei with committee? Update: Guardian council admits there were more votes than voters
posted at 11:18 am on June 21, 2009 by Allahpundit
There’s a hot rumor going around on Twitter that Mousavi’s been arrested too but I can’t find anything online to back that up. Rafsanjani’s daughter has been detained, though, along with four other members of the family, although we should call that what it is and refer to it more properly as hostage-taking. Rafsanjani himself is widely thought to be rounding up clerical opposition to the regime; now he knows the price he’ll pay if he follows through.
Tehran itself is reportedly “eerily calm” today, and some of the Iranian Tweeters who have been updating constantly have gone conspicuously, ominously silent in the last few hours. Even so, the government’s kicking out BBC reporters in preparation for god knows what. It’s a testament to how peaceful the protesters have been so far that Iranian state TV is forced to run inane news coverage of Wimbledon instead of showcasing footage of Mousavi supporters behaving violently, although rare examples of people fighting back are trickling out online. You saw one of them late last night in that vid I posted of protesters supposedly igniting a Basij gas line; here’s another stirring clip posted this morning of the crowd facing down the Basij and chasing them off. Below that is footage of what purports to be protesters coping with that mysterious burning agent being dropped by Iranian helicopters. Looks like they’re reacting to regular old tear gas to me, but you be the judge. More updates to follow as news breaks, needless to say.
Update: Republican Dick Lugar predicts a “very brutal outcome” to the uprising — and says the U.S. should negotiate with the regime anyway. Way to cover Obama’s ass, Dick. He and The One are pals, incidentally; I wonder if he said this at his behest.
Update: Keep your eye on statements from Ali Larijani. He’s the former chief nuke negotiator and current head of Iran’s parliament. He’s also a favorite of Khamenei and a bitter enemy of Ahmadinejad, which puts him in an awkward position under the circumstances. NIAC reports that he accused the Guardian Council this morning of taking Ahmadinejad’s side, which could suggest that he’s tilting away from Khamenei and the regime and towards Mousavi. That’d be a significant defection, if so.
Update: The 4:20 update at the NYT’s grand round-up of today’s (non-)action in Tehran claims that Rafsanjani’s daughter has been released. I guess this was a shot across the bow from the regime at what awaits his family if he presses on with rallying clerical sentiment against them. Which, according to Al-Arabiya, is precisely what’s he doing:
The influential Rafsanjani, 57, heads two very powerful groups. The most important one is the Assembly of Experts, made up of senior clerics who can elect and dismiss the supreme leader. The second is the Expediency Council, a body that arbitrates disputes between parliament and the unelected Guardian Council, which can block legislation.
Members of the assembly are reportedly considering forming a collective ruling body and scrapping the model of Ayatollah Khomeini as a way out of the civil crisis that has engulfed Tehran in a series of protests,
The discussions have taken place in a series of secret meetings convened in the holy city of Qom and included Jawad al-Shahristani, the supreme representative of Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who is the foremost Shiite leader in Iraq.
Update: An ABC reporter in Tehran is tweeting that all of Mousavi’s top aides have been arrested, although I don’t see that confirmed anywhere else. If it’s true, presumably they’ll be released shortly as part of the some sort of warning Rafsanjani’s daughter got. What’s undeniably true is that state media’s ramping up the rhetoric against him as a prelude to arresting the man himself if this drags on much longer.
In other news, The One is playing golf today. Yes, really.
Update: Mousavi’s allies tell ABC that more than 700 supporters have been detained this past week. Follow the link and see how many journalists are being locked up, too.
Update: No rigging here. Mind you, this comes off from Iran’s own state media.
Iran’s Guardian Council has suggested that the number of votes collected in 50 cities surpass the number of people eligible to cast ballot in those areas.
The council’s Spokesman Abbas-Ali Kadkhodaei, who was speaking on the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) Channel 2 on Sunday, made the remarks in response to complaints filed by Mohsen Rezaei — a defeated candidate in the June 12 Presidential election.
“Statistics provided by Mohsen Rezaei in which he claims more than 100% of those eligible have cast their ballot in 170 cities are not accurate — the incident has happened in only 50 cities,” Kadkhodaei said.
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It didn’t stop two major wars against it. It didn’t stop Iraq from attacking Iran. It didn’t stop Iraq from invading Kuwait and threatening SA. It didn’t stop a civil war in Lebanon from starting. It didn’t stop the Syrians from taking over Lebanon. In short, it provided no stability at all. Stability is not one of our reasons for backing Israel.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:23 PM
I’ve met many Arabs who would contradict every statement you made about the Arabs. Of course, none of the Arabs of which I speak were Muslim. I believe much of the Arabs’ problems are due to a suppressive and abusive religious ideology.
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 5:24 PM
No. But don’t kid yourself into thinking that they only hate Israel. Without Israel, they will fight each other, savagely. Think of the Iran-Iraq war times 1,000. And when one force is dominant, they will take their fight to Europe and America and all over the world.
You do know that they still want Spain back, right?
progressoverpeace on June 21, 2009 at 5:24 PM
Exactly, that’s what I said in the beginning. But, when they stop caring., I stop caring. Now that takes us full circle to where we started.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:25 PM
Upstater, for crying out loud… GET OUT OF THE LIQUOR CABNET, TURN OFF THE BOOB TUBE AND SLEEP IT OFF!…
sheesh…. :)
katy on June 21, 2009 at 5:25 PM
progressoverpeace on June 21, 2009 at 5:12 PM
Pretty darn good example of the lawless pirates.
fourdeucer on June 21, 2009 at 5:25 PM
Nurture vs Nature?
Hmmm… that debate still hasn’t been settled. I’ve met some “peaceful” arabs, but then again, they seemed to embrace more materialism… I could see that leading to problems.
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:25 PM
Are we going to be going all the way back to the dinosaurs here? Let’s stick with the last 100 years.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Ok do I have to give you the same scolding I just gave Upstater?
A spanking maybe?
katy on June 21, 2009 at 5:26 PM
;)
I believe anything Anderson Cooper tells me. He waded through water in New Orleans.
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:27 PM
But how can you when many Muslims (and Christians) use their history to justify their future actions?
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:27 PM
I hope you can forgive me for my previous remark to you. I meant my apology sincerely.
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 5:27 PM
+1,000
freeus on June 21, 2009 at 5:28 PM
While you’re at it, you can smack me too.
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 5:29 PM
Katy… just think of Lox as Blake when you give him a smack.
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:30 PM
In closing, let me just say, to be clear, my opinion is we back Israel out of principle, a common heritage and deep sympathy for the Holocaust. That relationship has been almost totally one sided. It’s been very expensive monetarily and in other ways. The minute 80% of American Jews voted for Obama was the day my deep concern for what Obama would do to Israel dropped significantly. If they don’t care what Obama will do then neither will I.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:30 PM
I have Arab friends who agree with me, and they are Muslim.
That is why I said in “General”.
It’s a good place to start and then it can be broken down.
Americans are a generous and giving people….
ok, but I know a few who are the cheapest people you’ll ever meet.
katy on June 21, 2009 at 5:31 PM
And still has the fungal infection to prove it.
katy on June 21, 2009 at 5:33 PM
Yes Lox, I will spank you… if it helps you in any way.
katy on June 21, 2009 at 5:33 PM
Easy. The whole thing is so FUBARed that going back to the 7th or 14th century to make sense out of it is fraught with peril. What’s happening in Iran right now would seem to indicate their attempt to throw off the shackles of the past.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:33 PM
I’d disagree. It has added some great heritage to the US and it promotes discussions that should take place. It adds to our capital (not monetary).
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:34 PM
That actually might cause serious pain though…
katy on June 21, 2009 at 5:35 PM
I’ve got to take off, Dog. I understand your position and generally agree that support of Israel should depend only on what the US gets out of it. No argument from me, there. I happen to think that the US gets a lot more than the cost and I am of the firm belief that instability and threats to the US would only rise without Israel. But that is arguable and will remain hypothetical (hopefully).
I would just reiterate what I said before (along a different line of thinking), if the US cuts from Israel, as is happening as we speak, then Israel will need to use all the power it has to defend itself. To me, that is the better option for Israel, anyway. It is about time that Israel fought an actual war – actually destroying its enemies, rather than mere defenses against enemy militaries that allowed those enemies to come back and fight the same war again every ten years. Israel needs to finish the fight the same way the US finished the fight in WWII.
progressoverpeace on June 21, 2009 at 5:35 PM
Oops sorry for the delay. No problem. We are cool.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:35 PM
Perhaps (a big perhaps) their shackles from the past 30 years. I see no evidence of Iran suddenly becoming a liberalized non-theocratic society. I fear it will morph from one extreme to another… I’ve been presented very little evidence to the contrary.
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:35 PM
Clinton did that for 8 years with Saddam Hussein, who had repeatedly broken UN Resolutions, not to mention ignoring the Peace Terms that they had signed at the end of the 1st Gulf War.
You were funnier on Captain’s Quarters, bayrum.
Del Dolemonte on June 21, 2009 at 5:36 PM
Thanks.
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 5:36 PM
+1
He was asking for it…
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:37 PM
Of course. But front lines are always very dangerous places.
The simplest solution to that problem is to surrender it. And, as all liberals know, the simplest solution is always the only solution.
If America would stop being Israel’s ally, and let them be “pushed into the sea,” then the Muslims could take that tiny little postage stamp-sized bit of and – after 1200 years of constant wars of expansion – they will, of course, stop.
OK, sure, they might then focus just a little bit more on all those horrifically intolerant Indian Buddhists who’ve been inciting violence among their otherwise peace-loving Muslim neighbors for so long.
And once that’s taken care of, they can finally get around to settling the hash of a couple of other other warmongering infidel tribes who had the inexcusable temerity to, well, exist….
But sooner or later they’ll finally get that nonsense out of their system, and then we’ll have worldwide peace forever. Well, technically, the exact translation of that Karn verse is “submission.” But that’s just another one of those little cultural differences that we’ll all have to learn to tolerate.
logis on June 21, 2009 at 5:38 PM
Actually that’s not my position. I understand and agree with supporting Israel despite the enormous costs. What I don’t agree with is that the burden should fall now upon me to fight for them when 80% of American Jews voted for Obama. They obviously agree with his agenda w.r.t. Israel and if they aren’t going to worry, neither will I. Juvenile? Perhaps…Emotional? Definitely.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:39 PM
Iran was very Western and a close (closest) US Ally before the revolution.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:40 PM
No.
If you had a friend whom you trusted, had an alliance with and they were threatened by someone on a constant basis, the police refused to interfere, would you dump them because it became an annoyance?
katy on June 21, 2009 at 5:41 PM
According to Marc R. Stanley, Chairman of the National Jewsih Democratic Council, two factors and two factors only decided most of the Jewish vote for O’bama: how he did in the debates, and McCain’s chosing Sarah Palin. Make of that what you will…
Del Dolemonte on June 21, 2009 at 5:41 PM
I tend to be very sensitive when it comes to claims that groups of people, due to their race or ethnicity, have certain mental or behavioral attributes that are significantly different.
However, when it comes to women…
[Hides from katy.]
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 5:41 PM
And that was under the Shah.
Chile also tended to side with the US under Pinochet.
That doesn’t make it a liberalized society.
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:41 PM
I think you have to read my other posts because your intereptation of my position has gotten offtrack.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:43 PM
Del Dolemonte on June 21, 2009 at 5:41 PM
Yeah, right. That was the National Jewish Democratic Council.
kingsjester on June 21, 2009 at 5:44 PM
Hehe
Well, I’ll admit that I used to be more sensitive to the Pro-Nature argument… Then I realized, that just because someone may be pre-disposed doesn’t mean they will follow through. So I’m thinking both may come into play. I do think that the Pro-Nature side isn’t given a fair chance due to our PC culture. At the same time, I do believe in Free Will…
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:44 PM
I wouldn’t call it juvenile. It is understandable, though emotional, as you say.
progressoverpeace on June 21, 2009 at 5:45 PM
You’re right wb, this is a tonic. I too hope the American people wake up in time and see what we all see. Just keep educating those who have lost their moorings I guess.
katy on June 21, 2009 at 5:45 PM
But it was… I said earlier, one of my close friend in HS in the early 80s was an Iranian refugee…it was very Western until the nuts took over and threw them into 30 years of darkness. These kids know what Iran was like before the Ayatollahs and that’s what they are fighting to get back.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:45 PM
Dick Lugar the Rinos Rino.What a dirt bag.These people have no idea about the real world.The poster child for term limits.
thmcbb on June 21, 2009 at 5:46 PM
AH HA!! I knew it. You’re just like me!!!
katy on June 21, 2009 at 5:46 PM
PS – His mother was one of the most beautiful, elegant woman you’d ever want to meet. Dressed beautifully and wore enough 24K gold on her to make Cleopatra jealous.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:48 PM
Ah, the smell of cooked Taliban in the afternoon! Fox just showed footage of air strikes against the bastards. Now, if we are going to pick a group of people who need to resume room temp, or tiny pieces; these scum can exist planet Earth ASAP! Looks like the Pakis are rooting some of them out from the valley areas as well.
freeus on June 21, 2009 at 5:48 PM
Upstater85, HELP!
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 5:49 PM
Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
I’m not much of a bible historian, and haven’t read it more than a few times, but I think Moses is always up on the mountain, giving people the choice to worship the golden calf. They may not see Israel, so they wander. But that wasn’t a punishment on Israel.
What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done there is nothing new under the sun.
JiangxiDad on June 21, 2009 at 5:49 PM
Perhaps, but does this mean that the Shah was a “good” guy? I use quotes to suggest that perhaps the definition of “good” is up for debate. Perhaps instead of striving for democracy, the US should strive for societies that are
1) Stable
2) Respect essential God given rights
3) Allow for a reasonable form of Justice.
Somehow the US has gotten on a pro-democracy kick…
In my personal opinion, the only way to get 1)-3) without corruption is to simply shrink the size of Government. I’m not sure that would be compatible with Shah-ian politics.
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:49 PM
Hey… you asked for it…
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM
exist=exit
freeus on June 21, 2009 at 5:53 PM
I’ve got you now my pretty…. fly’s away with dozens of monkeys in tow….
katy on June 21, 2009 at 5:53 PM
It’s not about the Shah. It’s about the people. They didn’t like the Shah so they overthrew him. I don’t think many of them realized where they were head it the Ayatollahs…He and his family stuck it out until he was kidnapped of the streets and sent to the front to die for Allah. Then they fled here to Boston.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 5:53 PM
Quick, Lox, click your heels ;)
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:55 PM
Heels? Were they on sale?
katy on June 21, 2009 at 5:57 PM
If I only had a brain, a heart, the nerve.
And the least bit of coordination.
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 5:57 PM
But clearly there was a large enough group of people that embraced this view. True, your friend may not have, BUT a lot of others did.
Look at America. Yeah, there were some confused voters that voted for Obama… None-the-less, there was still a significant group of people that fully embrace Obama’s views.
Here’s another thing… Why haven’t we seen a liberal republic rise up in the Middle East via “the people?”
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:58 PM
Slippers? Eh… whatever. I was always afraid of those flying monkeys. Could never make it through the movie.
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 5:59 PM
I haven’t met any Iranians in decades. But I still have fond memories of the ones I met. When the Iranian people threw out the Shah, they got a regime that was brutal and suppressive. So, I pray that the people in Iran do not throw out these tyrants and replace them with even worse tyrants.
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 6:01 PM
Yes, and a majority of voters bought one last November.
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 6:03 PM
You’ll have to explain how Israel is the number one cause of tension in the ME.
csdeven on June 21, 2009 at 6:03 PM
me too….
speaking of flying.. gotta run. have fun.
and…. Lox… I’ll deal with you later…
katy on June 21, 2009 at 6:03 PM
There’s nothing to fear but fear itself.
And that’s what I’ve got. Fear itself.
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 6:04 PM
Haven’t read all the comments, so sorry if repeat:
WaPo
JiangxiDad on June 21, 2009 at 6:05 PM
Shall we start with the wars?
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 6:06 PM
I would be more than willing to accept that if you can site some examples of societies that achieve those three goals without a functioning democracy of sorts. It seems to me that democracy is the first step (after a society that desires those freedoms) that has to be achieved before the other three can exist.
csdeven on June 21, 2009 at 6:07 PM
Sure. I’m by no stretch an expert, but what wars did Israel start recently?
csdeven on June 21, 2009 at 6:08 PM
The flying monkeys? I always hated those guards marching around the castle…singing…
ladyingray on June 21, 2009 at 6:09 PM
Hear at Iranian oppostion rally
“at ease Azzi there is a fundi amoung us”.
William Amos on June 21, 2009 at 6:10 PM
How about just the ones they have been forced to fight?
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 6:12 PM
This way we won’t have to argue about who started what.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 6:13 PM
The United States post-Revolution (and pre)
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 6:14 PM
That was very prescient of you:
O – Ee – Yah! BO – Ah!
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 6:16 PM
I was lucky on that one…LOL
ladyingray on June 21, 2009 at 6:17 PM
BTW, It’s called the “Winkie Chant.” Please note this for future reference.
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 6:18 PM
I weep for the hurting people of Iran.
It is amazing how ridiculous the Left is treating this.
As I noted here, one Lefty blogger is glad the protesters were not armed.
If the You Tube home invasions of the peaceful Iranian protesters ever happened to this Lefty, would he change his view of guns?
ColtsFan on June 21, 2009 at 6:18 PM
Lugar’s always been weak and his concern for human rights is questionable. Last year a document was uncovered in the Soviet archives detailing a meeting Lugar and Biden attended in 1979…
CP on June 21, 2009 at 6:21 PM
The videos of the Basij invading homes at night were very disturbing, with all the screams.
Some people appear to be governed by preconceived notions or ideologies. It often takes quite a shock to dispel such views. The indifference of the commenter you cite is also distressing.
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 6:23 PM
I’m from Israel, I understand what you’re saying but lets face it, if the Jews voted for McCain the leftists would have accused them of being racists and caring more about Israel than about America. So they voted Obama, and there we have people who think like you. Bottom line: The Jews will never win the PR battle, no matter what they will do. For the life of me, I have no idea why they are still trying.
For what it’s worth, most Israelis love, LOVE, the United State, there’s no reason to punish them because you don’t agree politically with the Jews that live here.
And to stay on topic, Obama you’re a disgrace! FU ayatollahs and Ahmadinejad! Free Iran! Peace!
Michelle Dubois on June 21, 2009 at 6:24 PM
OK, you lost me.
Are you saying because they are attacked and forced to defend themselves, they are the cause of the instability in the ME?
csdeven on June 21, 2009 at 6:27 PM
Simple since Evangelical Christians are the biggest supporters of Israel they are anti-Israel.
chemman on June 21, 2009 at 6:28 PM
Yes, I will, thank you. The “Winkie Chant” is just when my older cousin would grab me from behind and scare the crap out of me…he was so cruel.
ladyingray on June 21, 2009 at 6:28 PM
Heh… even the progressive Israelis know their greatest ally in the US…
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 6:30 PM
You, all of you, need to start influencing your American brethren. Otherwise, more and more people are going to start questioning why they make defense of Israel a priority in choosing candidates.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 6:33 PM
Here’s a news flash. If you are attacked it because the attacker considers you an issue.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 6:34 PM
I don’t see how the US was stable, respectful of rights, and sought justice until after democracy was established.
As individuals some held those all as their guiding principles, but as a nation we were far, far from it. It wasn’t until we became a democracy that we started living that way as a society. (But even then we condoned slavery)
Unless I’m misunderstanding you, I simply cannot accept your premise.
csdeven on June 21, 2009 at 6:34 PM
I understand. It’s what happened to us on 9/11. I just fail to see why Israel should be castigated because another country refuses to sit down and talk instead of starting a war over it.
Neither should we be blamed for 9/11 because Osama refused to try to resolve his differences peacefully.
Am I understanding you correctly on those points?
csdeven on June 21, 2009 at 6:40 PM
Well, we weren’t guillotining people… Can that be +1 for stability? Respectful of rights? Hmmm… I guess the government just wasn’t large enough to protect all of our rights… Justice? I think our Constitution was a really grand thing. It provided the adequate framework for Justice to be administered.
As a nation? Is this collectivism? And when did we become a democracy (and who brought us there)? You yourself admit that even democracy couldn’t somehow elliminate the evils of slavery… What good has democracy done? What is your definition of democracy?
I may be misunderstanding your premise. I don’t see how Democracy came legitimately to the seen and suddenly made everything better… but then again, I don’t know what you definition of democracy is.
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 6:41 PM
You, all of you, need to start influencing your American
I live here now, I’m a Jew, I voted Republican however my husband voted Democrat, but he’s a Christian… should the US stop supporting Christian nations? Just asking :)
Michelle Dubois on June 21, 2009 at 6:41 PM
Good point. And furthermore, the US should obviously stop supporting itself, given that a majority of Americans voted for Obama. And, coincidentally, Obama is our first anti-American president. So…
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 6:46 PM
Hm. That would mean that America is responsible for terrorism. Interesting logic, there.
MadisonConservative on June 21, 2009 at 6:46 PM
If 80% of American Christians turn their back on a tiny Christian nation in a sea of hsotility over its very existence and receives more US aid than any other Nation and whos friendship comes at a heavy cost, then yes.
Until then, let’s discuss Israel and 80% of American Jews voting for Obama and the consequences that support has on the future of Israel.
In all candor, Israeli Jews better wake up the American Jews. It’s your responsibility to let them know how you all feel.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 6:48 PM
The basis of democracy is that a society of people get together and establish laws to govern themselves. Does any other form of government provide the benefits you listed? Communism? Nationalism?
Can you name a society that encompassed the qualities you mentioned without a formal form of societal government?
Democracy doesn’t create God given rights, it merely chooses to formally recognize them as guiding principles.
So without a form of democracy, those three traits do not rule a society.
csdeven on June 21, 2009 at 6:48 PM
What’s with the 80%? I was hoping we could cut out the Lutheran and Catholic NATO countries since the majority of their “brethren” hear in the US supported Barry…
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 6:51 PM
By the way…didn’t 0% of Israeli Jews vote for Obama?
MadisonConservative on June 21, 2009 at 6:53 PM
It’s not what happened to us. If Canada and Mexico and other neighboring countries got together and attacked us on multiple occasions then it would be like what has happened to Israel. And if you think your neighbors declaring war upon you is stabilizing then you don’t understand the meaning of the word.
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 6:53 PM
There is no other country where we spend as much time and money and get nothing in return but grief and satisfaction for “doing the right thing.”
TheBigOldDog on June 21, 2009 at 6:55 PM
Wait, wait… democracy relies on the majority. I don’t see how the above is “pure” democracy. It would seem that many countries in the Middle East have used your version of democracy with our without the majority… A bunch of people got together and said, let’s use Islam (our law) to govern – and most of the governed accepted this because, hey they’re good Muslims.
Well, I already did, but apparently they didn’t have a big enough government to legislate morality, empathy, and compassion. OK… Hmm Moses’ Israelites?
Yeah… um I don’t see why it has to accept God given rights. In fact I think we can find many democracies that don’t like God given rights.
Oh, how are things going with those democracies in Pakistan and Gaza? Lebanon?
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 6:56 PM
I understand your point now. If Jews were a monolithic group I could entertain the idea. If they were a majority of this country I’ consider that also. But the fact is that the Jews whom voted for that despicable Chicago thug are a very small majority of this country. I believe that having Israel as an ally in the ME benefits most Americans and trading that benefit so we can make a bunch of ignorant Jewish voters suffer the consequences of their vote just doesn’t seem wise.
csdeven on June 21, 2009 at 6:56 PM
Now… I think you need to give the French more credit ;)
Upstater85 on June 21, 2009 at 6:57 PM
I’ve been told that as a Catholic, I get my weekly marching orders straight from the Vatican. So, if I don’t vote according to the Vatican, then I’m blamed for Obama. But, if I do vote according to the Vatican, then my allegiances are suspect. Guilty whatever I do.
Loxodonta on June 21, 2009 at 6:58 PM
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