The Obama Administration’s response to protests against the Iranian regime’s contempt for even its own thin facade of democracy has been markedly muted and tentative; even the French Government has spoken out more clearly against the fraudulence of t…

Hope and change: New WSJ poll shows America souring on Obamanomics?

The oppressive Ayatollahs have pushed the Iranian people to the point of revolution. When it does happens, it’s going to be a blood bath.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you about Algeria and Tunisia. In regard to Tunisia, a country that “was the preferred destination for all hijacked airlines for many years” has nothing to do with democracy. Moreover that occurred before I was born. Tunisia has democratically elected leaders since the death of Habib Bourguiba.

Point taken. I really don’t know much about Tunisia (I need to take a good look at it). I’ll take your word for the modern state. I was just telling you the major impression that I had about it. It did serve as an escape route for many of the Paletinian terrorists (noting that they were generally secular arab) and others.

The election you are referring to in regard to Algeria took place in 1991 when the Islamic Salvation Front (ISF) promised to be a dominant force. After the coup and the ensuing civil which ended in 2002, the Armed Islamic Group (GIA) were finished and a democratically elected government continued.

Yes, I was aware of this. And the polling for the islamists were running around 70%, if I recall correctly. I don’t consider this much time to evaluate the stability of government. You could put it on a “hopeful” list, but that’s as far as I would go.

I think those two examples should suffice.

Well …

While I agree that a western style democracy must be democratically elected

Actually, I’m not into democratic mechanisms, very much. I much prefer a governmental structure in which power is limited and compartmentalized in such a way that no matter how insanely stupid the people are who end up in those positions, they will not be able to organize and concentrate that governmental power in a way to abuse the citizenry and deprive us of our natural rights, as spelled out in the founding document. Democratic processes insure that morons will be placed into the positions of power in the government, so its construction must be strong enough and built in a smart enough way to be able to withstand such idiots. You cannot use democratic processes for a government that is esentially unlimited and able to concentrate governmental power and aim it. This was Adams’ essential attitude, and he was absolutely correct.

The Founders built a wonderfully strong such governmental structure, but we have reached the limits of their design, as we are being quickly drowned by a tsunami of idiocy in government. I still think that the Founders would be impressed that their design withstood as much as it did. Their basic design of the US government was pure genius.

The US is the only country in the world with such a governmental design. The Euro-style party-oriented parliamentary systems are inherently unstable and tribal. Countries would have a much better chance building stable governments if they adopted the US Constitution and adopted private property oriented, individual liberty-oriented local governments with the same sort of basic structure as spelled out in the federal Constitution, but taking off on their own futures from there. But no nation ever thought to copy the design of the most successful nation in all of history. I never understood this, and still don’t.

and must have full control of its terroritory, I will not concede that Abe Lincoln was not a legitimate president and did not preside over a legitimate United States of America.

Shock the Monkey on June 17, 2009 at 3:51 PM

He’s only legitimate because he won. That wasn’t a foregone conclusion for most of the time.

Irony if the mullaocrazy collapses before they eyes of an unwilling Obama.

the_nile on June 17, 2009 at 12:30 PM

If so, it would no doubt be brought about via the “Obama Effect” — which roughly equates to the shock wave of self-motivation brought on by the transformative reality of the leader of the world’s most powerful nation doing *absolutely nothing* to help anyone, anywhere. The message the world has received so far is loud & clear: If you wanna get it done from now on, you’ll have to do it yourself.

The wave of self-help that the Obama Effect has ignited, and may yet ignite, across the world will indeed be transformative, changing our world for the better.

/sarc

Look. All I’m saying is that the listed items add up to one big heaping pile of disaster. You can cherry pick the list all day and in the micro, on many of these points there is room for debate. But in the macro, it sucks to be Middle Eastern these days.

Yeah, I agree it living IN the Middle East these days… I don’t think I’d say it sucks to be Middle Eastern. Cherry Picking? Aren’t you the one that Cherry Picked a region of the world. The truth is that at least at the moment, much of the Middle East has a lot of money (that you point out they haven’t distributed). The culture has become more repressive in many aspects. Sure, they have cell phones… but they’ve incorporated their “morals” into their modernization. In other words, it’s fine for a housewife to have a mobile, but to show a lock of hair… well, she better hope her husband doesn’t mind.

Was Europe to blame? Yeah. Are they? I find it hard. Arab Nationalism has died out and been replaced by Islamofascism… No longer are Europeans or Americans for that matter, the soul reapers in the Middle East. No, now China and other developing countries are taking advantage of certain things… Actually, come to think of it, even many in the Gulf States are taking advantage of the less fortunate… Sri Lankan laborers come to mind…

Gaza has one of the highest birth rates in the world, maybe even the highest. China has that “Brave New World” single child policy and 24 million extra males.

And like I said, if you don’t like the Chinese birth rate, check out India. I don’t see how birth rate is the DIRECT cause for any problems.

I don’t understand what “the juice” implies but me and my fellow Texans are inferior to no man!

Just say it out loud several times…

They have their own moral issues to be sure, but do they really need to buy into western pop culture?

Not exactly, although they seem more comfortable buying into materialism than say liberalism…

No work? The Hutu and Tutsi genocide of 1994. You have to keep your young men gainfully employed is all I’m saying.

Yeah, and you yourself admit that many other parts of the world have high unemployment… Yet, they aren’t chopping heads off in the name of Allah.

No matter how bad leadership is in most parts of the world it seldom reaches the abject failure that exists in the Middle East.

Surely you recognize a cr*p sandwich when you see one?

dingbat on June 17, 2009 at 4:07 PM

Again, Cherry Picking… Most of the world suffers from abject leadership…

Oh, and American intervention in South Korea, Japan and Germany? American involvement was a sum gain for those nations. Think Marshall Plan.

We took cheap oil from the Middle East for years and when they tried to jack up the price we did a little regime changing. Think Shah of Iran.

dingbat on June 17, 2009 at 4:30 PM

OR maybe some people were playing nice with socialism… Turkey seems to be doing just fine and they stuck with the US most of the time. Other states made lots of money… and as you’d say, they failed to distribute this. But then again, these states had Kings, Princes, and Supreme Leaders…

Note: Had to delete the old post. It got balky when I was editing it and adding new stuff. A few comments were lost, unfortunately. That picture is from today (Wednesday). The resistance isn’t backing down yet. And now the……

Oh, and American intervention in South Korea, Japan and Germany? American involvement was a sum gain for those nations. Think Marshall Plan.

We took cheap oil from the Middle East for years and when they tried to jack up the price we did a little regime changing. Think Shah of Iran.

Look. All I’m saying is that the listed items add up to one big heaping pile of disaster. You can cherry pick the list all day and in the micro, on many of these points there is room for debate. But in the macro, it sucks to be Middle Eastern these days.

Anyway, in response.

The Europeans created most of the failed states of the region that exist today with no rhyme or reason. Read “A Peace To End All Peace” by David Fromkin.

Gaza has one of the highest birth rates in the world, maybe even the highest. China has that “Brave New World” single child policy and 24 million extra males.

I don’t understand what “the juice” implies but me and my fellow Texans are inferior to no man!

Distribution of wealth: For this argument does it matter whose fault it is? It just is. And it’s a big problem.

They have their own moral issues to be sure, but do they really need to buy into western pop culture?

No work? The Hutu and Tutsi genocide of 1994. You have to keep your young men gainfully employed is all I’m saying.

No matter how bad leadership is in most parts of the world it seldom reaches the abject failure that exists in the Middle East.

Surely you recognize a cr*p sandwich when you see one?

Well said sir. However I do have a few things to say in my defense. If you define a western style democracy as a democratically elected government that is able to “enforce national law over all of its sovereign territory”, I agree with you about Lebanon and Pakistan. However there is hope since Musharaf stepped down and Zardari was overwhelmingly elected to the presidency of Pakistan. Moreover the fact that Pakistan is starting to fight the Taliban in the Swat Valley and Southern Waziristan is promising. Moreover it’s promising in Lebanon that Hezbollah does no longer represents the majority coalition in Lebanon…however that’s immaterial given the definition.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you about Algeria and Tunisia. In regard to Tunisia, a country that “was the preferred destination for all hijacked airlines for many years” has nothing to do with democracy. Moreover that occurred before I was born. Tunisia has democratically elected leaders since the death of Habib Bourguiba. The election you are referring to in regard to Algeria took place in 1991 when the Islamic Salvation Front (ISF) promised to be a dominant force. After the coup and the ensuing civil which ended in 2002, the Armed Islamic Group (GIA) were finished and a democratically elected government continued. I think those two examples should suffice. While I agree that a western style democracy must be democratically elected and must have full control of its terroritory, I will not concede that Abe Lincoln was not a legitimate president and did not preside over a legitimate United States of America.

progressoverpeace on June 17, 2009 at 3:10 PM

I hope Spengler’s piece is correct, and the Muslim rebirth is merely a hiccup on the way to annihilation.

Re. “submission.” I find that a perfect one word synonym for totalitarianism. Islam means totalitarianism.

awesome post Upstater!

jp on June 17, 2009 at 3:10 PM

i always get a kick out of cultural relativists that cherry pick history to make excuses for Islam’s current moral paucity … ok not really, i don’t get a kick out of it. it’s actually quite infuriating and a childish refuge of the liberal mindset, stoked of course by the Peter Pan Profs populating today’s institutions of “higher learning.”

Those in the Middle East are as they are because of:

Warlord religion
The fall of the Ottoman Empire
European intervention after WW1 — oil

I believe the Europeans intervened in Hong Kong too…

American intervention after WW2 —oil

America intervened in Europe as well… Eastern Europe might finally have a shot. What about South Korea, Japan, Germany?

Population Explosion

Think China… Even with their population explosion, they’ve managed to grasp onto some version of Capitalism and I don’t think they are decapitating people. Yeah, you can say the gov’t itself is ruthless, but the average Chinese man doesn’t believe he’ll get 70 virgins in the afterlife for blowing some stuff up. Oh, and if you don’t like the China example, think India… They just had an election… hmm…

Inferiority complex (thanks a lot keemo)

I’d say most of the world has this. Just blame it on the Juice!

Sudden wealth with NO distribution

Hmmm… who’s fault is that?

An assault on their morals by a morally corrupt west

Morals such as don’t beat your wife to a pulp for showing her wrists…

No work

Same goes in many other parts of the world – including Africa.

Inept leadership

Something we have in common.

Sudden lurch into the modern world

No comment.

They never had a chance.

dingbat on June 17, 2009 at 1:39 PM

On the contrary. Everyone has a chance.

JiangxiDad on June 17, 2009 at 2:55 PM

I would also point out that islam, while it stole and twisted much from Christianity and Judaism, did that only to grab some legitimacy by insinuating itself into the Jewish line of descent. Judaism first defined true individualism as the core of a culture in the declaration of Genesis 1:27, “And G-d created man in His own image, in the image of G-d created He him;” and islam totally undid this.

I like to point out 5 simple facets of islam that say all one really needs to know about it and the cultures it generates:

1) islam means ‘submission’
2) muslims must kiss the ground 5 times a day
3) there are no days of rest in islam
4) islam went backwards and adopted a totally lunar calendar (putting it at odds with all modern society) along with a death sentence for inserting intercalaries to solarize it
5) Apostacy is punishable by death

To me, all one really needs to know about islam is summarized in those 5 simple facets of the ideology.

Catholic faith states that the Pope is infallible in matters of religion only …

get your facts straight before you go on a relativist lib kick why doncha…

max1 on June 17, 2009 at 1:35 PM

yes, but not always in practice was this the case. See the Catholic church that basically controlled Christendom and its Kings for the most part, till Henry VIII broke from Rome of course

JiangxiDad on June 17, 2009 at 2:55 PM

Thanks, Dad. I read the earlier Spengler link above, by RushBaby. Very interesting. I’m going to look at your link (which was referenced in the other article) and more of his stuff.

progressoverpeace on June 17, 2009 at 2:39 PM

I think you may like this recent Spengler piece about Islam, and how it’s fundamentally incompatible with the “west.”

Here’s a little taste:

“Islam departs from the mainstream of modern constructs of the individual and the group,” Allawi observes. The notion of a human individual is absent from Islamic thinking and impossible to describe in the Arabic language, he argues. Only God has individuality and uniqueness; the individual is merely an instrument, as it were. Many Western readers will skim uncomprehending over this material, and thus miss the radical thrust of Allawi’s argument. Western political scientists do not learn theology, whereas Allawi argues that in the Islamic world, politics is theology.

I can think of a few. Tunisia, Bangladesh, Lebanon, Pakistan and Algeria come to mind. I think it’s a fallacy to believe that Western democracy and Islam are incompatable.

Shock the Monkey on June 17, 2009 at 1:37 PM

Interesting list. I can’t say much about Bangladesh. As to the rest:

Lebanon – was a majority Christian nation (until muslims drove many out). I don’t know why you would have Lebanon as some sort of example of Western-style democracy, as they have Hezbollah as one of the major parliamentary players and the de-facto ruler of the south. When a country can’t even have its government enforce national law over all of its sovereign territory, I think it lacks what we consider to be a real government.

Pakistan – I’ll figure you are joking on this one. You are aware that they just emerged from a military dictatorship to slide into near-chaos, which is sort of a Pakistani pattern. Again, we have problems with the official government enforcing law on all of its sovereign territory, thereby falling short of what Westerners would consider a working government. Pakistan also poses a huge threat to the civilized world.

Algeria – Of course, this is a nation in which the islamists had won something like a 70% share of an earlier election, forcing a military takeover to keep the country from becoming a total basketcase. All Western powers endorsed the military coup, as the islamists and the country were all nuts. That wasn’t very long ago, so I’m not sure what you would point to Algeria for.

Tunisia – I don’t know much about Tunisia, except that it was the preferred destination for all hijacked airlines for many years, after which terrorists would disappear into the aether. I don’t know much else about the nation, but I don’t have good feelings about it.

Of course, islam is not monolithic (as many groups of muslims would like nothing better than killing many other groups of mulsims) but they all share some of the deep foundations of the culture that islam tends to foster. Islam is the formalization of 7th century desert arab culture and no one who espouses the ideology of islam can get away from that. It is very unforgiving and demands people to feel like dirt and realize their total insignificance. This is why muslims being forced to kiss the ground 5 times a day, every single day, should be taken seriously by people as an indication of the ideology and what it tries to do to its adherents. And islam does demand the power of state. Muslims know this. It’s only Westerners who refuse to accept this fact, even though presented with proof of it all over the place and throughout the history of islam.

Irony if the mullaocrazy collapses before they eyes of an unwilling Obama.

the_nile on June 17, 2009 at 12:30 PM

I think, by the definition of irony, that irony would be if Obama’s insistence on playing nice with Amadinajad prevented a change in government that would be more amiable to negotiating the end of their weapons program.
Or, maybe it would be ironic if the Iranians do have another revolution, but the new order refuses to give up the nukes because of P.BO’s implicit backing of Amadinajad.

But I would be much happier if the Iranians toss Amadinajad and give up the nukes on their own, without Barry’s “help”.

Warlord religion
The fall of the Ottoman Empire
European intervention after WW1 — oil
American intervention after WW2 —oil
Population Explosion
Inferiority complex (thanks a lot keemo)
Sudden wealth with NO distribution
An assault on their morals by a morally corrupt west
No work
Inept leadership
Sudden lurch into the modern world

They never had a chance.

The response of the more militant segments of their society was to lash out. The US fights back, rightfully, and Bush, in a moment of clarity attempts to set things right. Could it be that what’s happening in Iran is in part, the result of young people looking west toward their neighbor, a newfound democracy? Just one of many things to consider.

jp on June 17, 2009 at 12:54 PM

above pope infallability message was directed here….