Reagan didn’t remain silent on Poland
posted at 11:34 am on June 16, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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In mid-December 1981, the Polish government declared martial law, hoping to suppress the Solidarity uprising that started in Gdansk earlier that year. The Soviet puppet Wojciech Jaruzelski imprisoned thousands, including Solidarity leader Lech Walesa, and attempted to suppress self-determination by the Poles through force and intimidation. Then-President Ronald Reagan immediately reacted to the imposition of martial law by publicizing his conversation with Pope John Paul II the next day (emphases mine):
The President. “Your Holiness, I want you to know how deeply we feel about the situation in your homeland.”
“I look forward to the time when we can meet in person.”
“Our sympathies are with the people, not the government.”
Three days later, Reagan made his point crystal clear in a press conference:
All the information that we have confirms that the imposition of martial law in Poland has led to the arrest and confinement, in prisons and detention camps, of thousands of Polish trade union leaders and intellectuals. Factories are being seized by security forces and workers beaten.
These acts make plain there’s been a sharp reversal of the movement toward a freer society that has been underway in Poland for the past year and a half. Coercion and violation of human rights on a massive scale have taken the place of negotiation and compromise. All of this is in gross violation of the Helsinki Pact, to which Poland is a signatory.
It would be naive to think this could happen without the full knowledge and the support of the Soviet Union. We’re not naive. We view the current situation in Poland in the gravest of terms, particularly the increasing use of force against an unarmed population and violations of the basic civil rights of the Polish people.
Violence invites violence and threatens to plunge Poland into chaos. We call upon all free people to join in urging the Government of Poland to reestablish conditions that will make constructive negotiations and compromise possible.
Certainly, it will be impossible for us to continue trying to help Poland solve its economic problems while martial law is imposed on the people of Poland, thousands are imprisoned, and the legal rights of free trade unions — previously granted by the government — are now denied. We’ve always been ready to do our share to assist Poland in overcoming its economic difficulties, but only if the Polish people are permitted to resolve their own problems free of internal coercion and outside intervention.
Our nation was born in resistance to arbitrary power and has been repeatedly enriched by immigrants from Poland and other great nations of Europe. So we feel a special kinship with the Polish people in their struggle against Soviet opposition to their reforms.
The Polish nation, speaking through Solidarity, has provided one of the brightest, bravest moments of modern history. The people of Poland are giving us an imperishable example of courage and devotion to the values of freedom in the face of relentless opposition. Left to themselves, the Polish people would enjoy a new birth of freedom. But there are those who oppose the idea of freedom, who are intolerant of national independence, and hostile to the European values of democracy and the rule of law.
Two Decembers ago, freedom was lost in Afghanistan; this Christmas, it’s at stake in Poland. But the torch of liberty is hot. It warms those who hold it high. It burns those who try to extinguish it.
Note what Reagan did not do. He didn’t say we needed to declare war on Poland, the reductio ad absurdum offered as a criticism of conservatives by progressives intent on defending Barack Obama’s weak response. Reagan kept his options close to the vest, both in this statement and during the subsequent questions asked by reporters at the presser. Reagan chose to stand for freedom and to publicly support those taking great physical risks in demanding it, keeping the pressure on the oppressors.
Compare that to the reaction that came three days later from Barack Obama during a somewhat similar (although not completely analogous) crisis in Iran:
Obviously all of us have been watching the news from Iran. And I want to start off by being very clear that it is up to Iranians to make decisions about who Iran’s leaders will be; that we respect Iranian sovereignty and want to avoid the United States being the issue inside of Iran, which sometimes the United States can be a handy political football — or discussions with the United States.
Having said all that, I am deeply troubled by the violence that I’ve been seeing on television. I think that the democratic process — free speech, the ability of people to peacefully dissent — all those are universal values and need to be respected. And whenever I see violence perpetrated on people who are peacefully dissenting, and whenever the American people see that, I think they’re, rightfully, troubled.
My understanding is, is that the Iranian government says that they are going to look into irregularities that have taken place. We weren’t on the ground, we did not have observers there, we did not have international observers on hand, so I can’t state definitively one way or another what happened with respect to the election.
But what I can say is that there appears to be a sense on the part of people who were so hopeful and so engaged and so committed to democracy who now feel betrayed. And I think it’s important that, moving forward, whatever investigations take place are done in a way that is not resulting in bloodshed and is not resulting in people being stifled in expressing their views.
Now, with respect to the United States and our interactions with Iran, I’ve always believed that as odious as I consider some of President Ahmadinejad’s statements, as deep as the differences that exist between the United States and Iran on a range of core issues, that the use of tough, hard-headed diplomacy — diplomacy with no illusions about Iran and the nature of the differences between our two countries — is critical when it comes to pursuing a core set of our national security interests, specifically, making sure that we are not seeing a nuclear arms race in the Middle East triggered by Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon; making sure that Iran is not exporting terrorist activity. Those are core interests not just to the United States but I think to a peaceful world in general.
We will continue to pursue a tough, direct dialogue between our two countries, and we’ll see where it takes us. But even as we do so, I think it would be wrong for me to be silent about what we’ve seen on the television over the last few days.
And what I would say to those people who put so much hope and energy and optimism into the political process, I would say to them that the world is watching and inspired by their participation, regardless of what the ultimate outcome of the election was. And they should know that the world is watching.
And particularly to the youth of Iran, I want them to know that we in the United States do not want to make any decisions for the Iranians, but we do believe that the Iranian people and their voices should be heard and respected.
Reagan took a stand on freedom, where Obama sounds desperate for engagement with the forces of oppression. Germany’s Angela Merkel took a much tougher stand than Obama did, calling the oppression “totally unacceptable,” while all Obama can say is that it’s “deeply troubling”.
It’s the difference between leadership and management. Reagan led, and he inspired the Poles to continue the struggle that eventually helped free half of Europe from iron-fisted domination by the Soviet Union. Obama wants to manage the crisis to keep from having to lead. Big, big difference.
Update: Don’t miss the Twitterview between Jake Tapper and John McCain on this topic. Key takeaway:
TAPPER: @SenJohnMcCain what would u say were u president? how much of a concern wd it be that “the west” supporting protestors cd be demonized? Thx
MCCAIN: @jaketapper we heard that during the Cold War when the left didn’t want us criticizing the Soviet Union b/c we could have been “demonized”
TAPPER: @SenJohnMcCain i had a feeling the memory of jailed russian dissidents hearing Reagan speak about them wd be something u were thinking about
MCCAIN: @jaketapper USA always stands for freedom and democracy!!
TAPPER: @SenJohnMcCain WH says it needs to focus on Iran’s nuke program/support for terror, must deal w Iran we have not 1 we wish we had. response?
TAPPER: @senjohnmccain to translate from twitterese: WH says “We have to deal with the Iran we HAVE, not the one we WISH we had”
MCCAIN: @jaketapper that’s revisiting the cold war arguments on how we dealt with the Soviet Union
MCCAIN: @jaketapper – we must stand strong for democracy in Iran as we stood for Democracy in Poland, Germany, and Czechoslovakia
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yes, but Iraq is leaning Secular now thanks to all the western interaction they now have. we have fundamentally undermined longterm Sharia in Iraq
baby steps
jp on June 16, 2009 at 12:42 PM
For all the morons above who are unable to read, I did not say that there were “NO” geo-political concerns re Poland in the 1980’s. But they were clearly DIFFERENT than the ones we face in Iran.
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 12:43 PM
In sure will be glad when Obama leaves office. I just hope the country can recover. With all the votefarming effort going on, I’m afraid he has stacked the deck for years to come.
Government crack addicts, hooked on the public trough. Incented to take, and discouraged to produce.
saiga on June 16, 2009 at 12:44 PM
anyone remember Radio Free Europe? That was one way Reagan intervened against the Soviets in Poland.
we should be doing alot of that in Iran and funding these Millions to overthrow the Theocracy. Anything is better than the current regime.
jp on June 16, 2009 at 12:45 PM
So you’re comparing a REAL man, and perhaps the best President of the 20th century with today’s weak, limp wristed liberal cream puff. Perhaps compare weaklings like Obama & Carter, certainly not with a real man.
Jeff from WI on June 16, 2009 at 12:46 PM
Reagan was a real man. Reagan was a real leader. Obama! Man up!
This is what happens when you practice identity politics.
BetseyRoss on June 16, 2009 at 12:47 PM
I am ashamed to hear these cowardly words from an American president.
People of Iran, we are with you. What can we do to help?
PattyJ on June 16, 2009 at 12:47 PM
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 12:43 PM
Original statement clearly stated there were geo-political concerns in Iran, implied this required a more hands-off approach than a Soviet satellite.
Sorry you are “unable to
readwrite” clearly.cs89 on June 16, 2009 at 12:47 PM
Reagan vs Obama. No contest. Obama blames everything on his predecessor.He is the whiner-in-chief. Reagan would never do that. Reagan was optimistic and never went around apologizing for America. That’s all Obama does.
Beaglemom on June 16, 2009 at 12:48 PM
I thought the Mullahs cut off Radio Free Europe from broadcasting in Iran?
Dudley Smith on June 16, 2009 at 12:49 PM
they also just elected for the first time 4 Women in Kuwait to office….WOMEN
anything is better than the Theocracy in Iran and we should try to make anything come about. Iraq is much better off today and on the right trajectory to be alot more like Kuwait and UAE, not perfect by far but not trying to be an enemy to Capitalism and the United States.
jp on June 16, 2009 at 12:50 PM
think so, but there are plenty of options with the internet and so forth still around.
jp on June 16, 2009 at 12:51 PM
my guess if Obama remains limp wristed on this, netaynayhu will fund a revolution into happening
jp on June 16, 2009 at 12:51 PM
Ugh. It is embarrassing to watch a political leader like McCain communicating in txt abbreviations. Twitter is a communications medium for geeks with ADD, and I can’t wait until it gives way to the next big fad. Hopefully, that one will allow adults to speak as adults.
Back on subject, I forgot Reagan said this:
But the torch of liberty is hot. It warms those who hold it high. It burns those who try to extinguish it.
I got shivers when I read it. May it inspire our current President to turn his attention to the basic principle of liberty.
blueguitarbob on June 16, 2009 at 12:51 PM
jp,
But how can you reconcile Jefferson’s ideas about the necessity of the American Constitution’s strict limits in guaranteeing freedom with the idea that the Iraq Constitution’s faults are just a minor quibble/stepping stone? I mean it’s not going to be amended is it? The destruction of Baathism in Iraq seems to have strengthened Islam.
The legal provisions for Sharia in Iraq already exist in embryo. All that remains is for Islamic law to be “liberated” by the removal of U.S. troops. But the main point is that the Iraqi demos chose this state of affairs – as the Palestinian people chose Hamas – and the Iranian people might very well do the same.
aengus on June 16, 2009 at 12:53 PM
If he can’t speak definitively about what happened in the election, perhaps he needs a new CIA chief….
CC
CapedConservative on June 16, 2009 at 12:55 PM
That was the key to Reagan’s success. He declared war on tyranny, not on nations, in the same way he criticized politics, or the generic politican, but not individuals
Reagan’s direction was ultimately to always support justice and condemn injustice. He reserved his battles for systems, not men, and so was able later to have a conversation with the former soviet leader man to man.
The root of Reagan was a willingness to always defend the inalienable rights of man against those who wanted him to remain silent in the name of pragmatism.
Those who test the wind can be controlled by the winds
Those who do not test the wind will garner less storms from the enemy.
Obama is already reaping from his public positioning
entagor on June 16, 2009 at 12:56 PM
This is what happens when you elect inexperienced, over-entitled fool who has spent his entire life marinating in Anti-American ideology.
Anyone who is surprised by Obambi’s response even more dense than he is.
RadClown on June 16, 2009 at 12:57 PM
You should write more clearly, then.
Like perhaps explain how you feel one nuclear holocaust would be different than another nuclear holocaust.
Or explain Russia’s involvement in both countries as NOT apples=apples
Don’t just say that they’re different and stop. You didn’t even get to a thesis statement.
bluelightbrigade on June 16, 2009 at 12:57 PM
Reagan had steel ones.
Obarky has TOTUS.
Ever notice that with republicans in the White House democracies tend to increase around the world; with democrats, not so much.
Bubba Redneck on June 16, 2009 at 12:58 PM
This is what happens when you elect people based on the color of their skin and not on the content of their character. The Rev. King was correct.
Textbook case #1: Reagan vs. Obama
Bubba Redneck on June 16, 2009 at 1:02 PM
Well, bluelightbrigade, I’ll give you one tiny little difference between Poland and Iran:
Mousavi is NOT Lech Walesa. Mousavi is also NOT George Washington.
What we are seeing in Iraq is not yet a revolution, it is an OPPOSITION.
Mousavi is a conservative who works within the system in Iraq. Now he may or MAY NOT be the face of change in Iraq in the minds of his supporters in the streets. We don’t know enough to determine that and the tweets of a few dedicated university students on Twitter are not enough to determine what the intent of the vast majority of voters in the streets of Tehran want.
I certainly believe the vote totals here were manipulated and there is some brutal actions on the part of the government of Iran, but I have yet to see any evidence that Mousavi represents any kind of fundamental break with the past. He might put forth a slightly more moderate face than Dinner Jacket, but Obama is wise not to get involved in an internal dispute until it is clear what kind of change the people are really calling for.
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 1:08 PM
Check this one out, the 1964 GOP convention speech by Reagan. It’s actually eerie how it applies today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXBswFfh6AY
Jeff from WI on June 16, 2009 at 1:08 PM
Exactly. I was just about to post a similar comment but I couldn’t have said it better, Jeff.
Bringing up a Reagan/Obama comparison at a moment like this is like bringing out a Sherman tank to blow away the 5-year old kid across the street who sticks his tongue out at you. It’s overkill to say the least.
UltimateBob on June 16, 2009 at 1:09 PM
Reagan was hammered by the Left for making those “provocative statements” about Poland. He didn’t care. He didn’t talk to the Soviets for almost three years and didn’t meet with a Soviet leader until his second term in office. If Reagan had blown it in his approach to the USSR and Eastern Europe, the consequences could have been far worse than anything Barack Obama is facing.
rockmom on June 16, 2009 at 1:14 PM
The point, though, as entagor so eloquently stated above, is that a U.S. President can show leadership by supporting the people, he does not have to endorse or condemn a particular politician. None of us are asking Obama to embrace Mousavi the person. We are asking him to stand behind real democracy and oppose violent suppression of the people by the state. And he can’t even do that, because he either doesn’t believe in it or he is too scared to do it.
rockmom on June 16, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Any of you former Captain’s Quarters folks recognize this poster?
Del Dolemonte on June 16, 2009 at 1:18 PM
“Given our history, we cannot be seen as meddling, the US President meddling with an Iranian election”
Hussien however has no problem meddling with Israeli politics. Another example of screwing the friends of the US while kissing the ass of our enemies.
Will Hussien meddle when Iran has nukes? Will Hussien meddle when Israel counter attacks and turns Tehran into a smoking hole?
Hussien is a puss and the mullahs know it. Playing him like a fiddle.
Kuffar on June 16, 2009 at 1:19 PM
And it’s looking more and more like that is the only way our nation will survive.
infidel4life on June 16, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Pres. Obama refers to himself (I) 16 times and “me” or “my” 2 times in that piece of nonsense he vomited up for the Iranians. ON THE OTHER HAND (as BHO would say), in President Reagan’s speech noted above, he used “I” one time in a personal message to the Pope. The rest of the time he made sure the Polish people knew he spoke on behalf of the United States of America. Today, the Iranians get ego-centric “I” “me” “my” gobbledy-gook coming from the Community Organizer in Chief. He truly believes it’s all about him.
Monkeybrains220 on June 16, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Now Ed, You know that this is a post that’s really going to piss off moderates like Jazz Shaw. Confrontation is the real villain in today’s political discourse. Can’t we all just get along?
Uncle Seth The Noble on June 16, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Carter left Reagan sabotaged in his efforts to oppose the Soviets over Poland by making him inherit a weak military. This is reminiscent of the hamstrung intelligence community Bush Jr. inherited from Clinton in early 2001.
So if you’re a terrorist or a commie and you want to sabotage America? Vote Democratic!
Crusty on June 16, 2009 at 1:22 PM
Obama is NAGAER.
REAGAN in reverse.
profitsbeard on June 16, 2009 at 1:24 PM
Barry O continues to disappoint sadly.
What a wuss of a POTUS! Definitely not an alpha male. Sigh!….
He is afraid of the world’s bullies and will not stand up strongly to them even when people are being beaten, tortured and killed.
sarahpalinfan99 on June 16, 2009 at 1:24 PM
There is a third choice Rockmom: That Obama is concerned that doing more will be used by the Iranian govt to paint Mousavi supporters as puppets of the United States & thereby delegitimize their efforts in the eyes of their country men & others in the region.
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 1:27 PM
I don’t know if this has been mentioned but notice this difference between Reagan and Obama:
Reagan used “We” and “Our”
Obama used “I” as usual.
It is all about Obama-not America and our values.
Babino on June 16, 2009 at 1:27 PM
For all the morons above who are unable to read, I did not say that there were “NO” geo-political concerns re Poland in the 1980’s. But they were clearly DIFFERENT than the ones we face in Iran.
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 12:43 PM
yeah like total thermonuclear world wide war. Compared to that the Iran problem is cupcakes and flowers compared to the Poland crisis. And yet Obama fails on the little crisis God help us if we have major crisis. do you even know what the hell you are talking about.. good god woman learn some history.
unseen on June 16, 2009 at 1:27 PM
So in other words, Obama will wait until the people develop enough power and consistency of message (that Obama agrees with) to overthrow the mullahs themselves before supporting their efforts?
Thanks for nothing, Obama.
cs89 on June 16, 2009 at 1:33 PM
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 1:27 PM
Another Poland/Iran similarity. Moscow painted freedom movements as “Western influence.”
Just can’t help yourself, can you?
cs89 on June 16, 2009 at 1:34 PM
BTW, I love how you guys conventiantly forget Saint Reagan’s non-support for dissidents in South Africa. He even vetoed sanctions against South Africa to protest apartheid. Apparently Reagan only stood with SOME protesters against injustice.
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 1:34 PM
CS89 — Are you unaware that Mousavi has already BEEN president of Iran? And those days were not exactly halcyon days of liberty & democracy in Iran. Glad you can read his heart so well now & know that things will be SO DIFFERENT now.
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 1:39 PM
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 1:34 PM
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 1:39 PM
Put on your reading glasses, please. Over and over in this thread, the sentiment has been expressed that Mousavi may not be the answer. It’s not about picking who the leader of Iran will be, it’s about supporting the right of the Iranian people to pick for themselves rather than having a rigged election foisted upon them.
As to the South African rabbit trail… ever heard of “constructive engagement?” Almost sounds like a term Obama might use.
cs89 on June 16, 2009 at 1:45 PM
However small a turd I think Obama is, comparing him to President Reagan makes him even smaller. I am so ashamed that my countrymen elected this pusillanimous pismire. When did we start holding our national responsibility so cheap?
SKYFOX on June 16, 2009 at 1:46 PM
Teresa,
Is supporting Communists the best way to end injustice? The ANC were and are Communist. South Africa is now a wreck and heading for total collapse. In a matter of 10-15 years it’ll be totally unlivable with record inflation and starvation, just like Zimbabwae.
aengus on June 16, 2009 at 1:47 PM
BTW, I love how you guys conventiantly forget Saint Reagan’s non-support for dissidents in South Africa. He even vetoed sanctions against South Africa to protest apartheid. Apparently Reagan only stood with SOME protesters against injustice.
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 1:34 PM
Yeah because the socialist take over of South africa has been so good for its population. they can’t even keep the lights on now. Had power outages that lasted months last year. mines shut down etc.
unseen on June 16, 2009 at 1:48 PM
Beats standing with NONE.
CC
CapedConservative on June 16, 2009 at 1:48 PM
He was Prime Minister but the point is well taken. The Moderate Mullah has a longer history as an establishment figure than Ahmadinejad.
aengus on June 16, 2009 at 1:48 PM
“BTW, I love how you guys conventiantly forget Saint Reagan’s non-support for dissidents in South Africa. He even vetoed sanctions against South Africa to protest apartheid. Apparently Reagan only stood with SOME protesters against injustice.
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 1:34 PM”
According to Gateway Pundit, this is how BO has helped oppressed peoples in less than 200 days:
“Already this year the Obama Administration has waived sanctions on Syria, considered opening travel to Cuba, announced plans to drop sanctions against the murderous junta in Burma, reportedly approved Sharia Law in the tribal regions of Pakistan in exchange for a bogus peace treaty, praised the Venezuelan “democracy,” discussed holding talks with the Iranian regime, and accepted China’s human rights abuses.”
Reagan may not have always been consistant but he never confused democracy with oppression.
Vera71 on June 16, 2009 at 1:49 PM
CS89 — Are you unaware that Mousavi has already BEEN president of Iran? And those days were not exactly halcyon days of liberty & democracy in Iran. Glad you can read his heart so well now & know that things will be SO DIFFERENT now.
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 1:39 PM
revolutions have a way of destorying the old ways of thinking. Yelstin was a party member too before the revolution in russia. what made him change his spots?
unseen on June 16, 2009 at 1:50 PM
Perhaps we can start a recall on Ochimpy if the constitution allows for it. Impeachment and removal from office at the minimum.
This Marxist traitor endangers, demonizes and embarrasses America every time he opens that Pandora’s box he calls his mouth.
csdeven on June 16, 2009 at 1:55 PM
who cares about Mousavi, the point is to disrupt the regime and ultimately overthrow the Mullah’s and the Theocracy.
Stabalization does nothing but get them closer to Nukes.
jp on June 16, 2009 at 2:00 PM
***
President Reagan came up with a brilliant plan to destroy the Russian economy–without firing a shot!
***
The SDI (Star Wars) Program started building a giant laser facility 4 miles East of my White Sands Missile Range, NM. Patriot engineering test site. We all wondered what would happen to our sensitive electronic and computer equipment when the two super power lasers fired at very long range incoming ICBM type targets. Lightning bolts from all of our equipment to ground and instant destruction of our side by slight “stray” radiation effects?
***
Funny thing about the laser site–we expected a “Manhattan Project” type effort–hundreds of cement mixers, heavy trucks, thousands of workers–all on a 24 / 7/ 365 effort to get this system up and firing quickly. What we saw was a few cement mixers, a few workers, 10 AM to 3 PM hour work schedule going on, etc. I didn’t understand what was going on at the time–but it seemed weird.
***
Meanwhile–President Reagan opened up U.S.A. oil sources and caused the oil market to crash–very low oil prices robbed the U.S.S.R. of much needed income. They were overspending badly on trying to match the U.S.A. Star Wars effort. It broke the bank at the U.S.S.R. and started the collapse of the Evil Empire.
***
The same plan will work on Iran, Venezuela, and other unfriendly terrorist supporting states / enemies of the U.S.A. DRILL HERE, DRILL NOW–and start building NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS. Use the (economic) force and win–like in Reagan’s Star Wars plan. Lower our energy costs and provide good jobs for Americans in the process.
***
Too bad that the brilliant hope and change president–Barack Obama (PBUH) doesn’t have a clue on how to copy Reagan’s plan. He thinks a few apology speeches and taxing the American People BY C(R)AP AND TRADE and by building taxpayer subsidized “greenie” energy sources will “help” us with higher energy costs. And his policies will further enrich the Iranian Mullahs and our other enemies as the oil prices skyrocket again.
***
John Bibb
***
rocketman on June 16, 2009 at 2:00 PM
Oh, okay, I TOTALLY forgot that Nelson Mandela & Desmond Tutu were dirty rotten commies! You guys are soooo right. Black people in South Africa should have NEVER been allowed to vote. How silly of me!
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 2:00 PM
Reagan did fire some shots though, directly and indirectly.
Directly against Communist advances in Central America and Carribean
Directly against Jihadis like Gadafi in Lybia at the objection of France…
Indirectly by providing weapons to groups like the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan against the Soviets
and similar examples, along with Star Wars, strong rhetoric, etc.
What he was not and the polar opposite of is Obama and the Isolationist on the Far-Right, all either amoral or moral relativist of some sort.
jp on June 16, 2009 at 2:04 PM
JP — The object of the people on the streets of Tehran is to have Moussvi appointed as president. There is not one sign they want to overthrow the Mullahs. It would be like Gore supporters protesting after Bush won Florida. They want their guy to win not to see the whole system overthrown. The signs say “Count our votes” not “Throw out the Mullahs!”
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 2:04 PM
Did anyone see Sen. Dick Lugar’s remarks on the current crisis?
Reagan’s remarks on Poland were inspiring. However, it would take another eight years before elections were held there despite his influence, and thousands remained in prison.
M_Laveau on June 16, 2009 at 2:19 PM
Perhaps we can start a recall on Ochimpy if the constitution allows for it. Impeachment and removal from office at the minimum.
This Marxist traitor endangers, demonizes and embarrasses America every time he opens that Pandora’s box he calls his mouth.
csdeven on June 16, 2009 at 1:55 PM
.
The time for impeachment will come some time after the 2010 elections unless those there now have a sea change about Obama agenda.
.
New American Motto: Dated JUNE 24 2009 [ Americans for "sea change" of Congress ]
.
Americannodash on June 16, 2009 at 2:25 PM
Typical leftist faux outrage based on total ignorance and then willful obtuseness.
Much progress was made in the treatment of blacks in SA because the international companies that operated there did not want to be seen as supporting the racism. As the older politicians died, the younger ones led the charge to change those policies.
It wasn’t a perfect policy, but it made more sense that Ochimpy bending over to give Iran and this countries other enemies a straight shot right up his ass.
The guy is a despicable person and a traitor to this country.
csdeven on June 16, 2009 at 2:25 PM
“We have to forget about Reagan” Rino.
the_nile on June 16, 2009 at 2:27 PM
The same people whose “war on the world” rhetoric put that nutjob in office with their Axis of Evil speak want us to publicly poke and prod more. The Iranian situation is going rather well right now, there is actual popular uprising, that last thing that we need is to give the other side more fuel.
And just in case you guys haven’t had your fill of intervention for today, do you really think that we are not there on the ground right now? Why do you think most countries won’t take back even the innocent detainees? Because they think they’re spooks.
LevStrauss on June 16, 2009 at 2:28 PM
Obama is handling this correctly by taking a wait and see approach. If he spoke out harshly now it would just give ammunition to the entrenched powers that be in Iran. They will make the claim that the opposition is in bed with the US. Do you think that would help the opposition? I don’t.
Bill Blizzard on June 16, 2009 at 2:29 PM
Nelson Mandela was and is a Communist as well as being completely useless at governing.
Well that’s not the position that anyone here has taken. The Communist Party were banned in the USA and the ANC should have been banned in South Africa. Other more moderate political parties could have been voted on.
Your insistence that South Africa be handed over to Communists sooner than it was – at the height of the Cold War in fact – is extreme. Your angryy strawman (”should have NEVER been allowed to be vote”) is of a piece with your fanaticism.
In fact a lot of people see the U.S. an ideological power, a vehicle for spreading liberalism, democracy and human rights all over the globe the way the Soviet Union spread Communism. I’m not one of them.
aengus on June 16, 2009 at 2:31 PM
I was five years old when Martial Law was declared in my country, Poland. I can tell you from personal experience that my family protested and supported the Solidarity movement in great part because we knew the USA stood with us, and Reagan would not abandon us. It was important to know that the US supported us, otherwise we feared the Soviets would invade and crush us. Reagan’s brave words kept the Russians in check, and 8 years later in 1989, twenty years ago this month, we had our first free democratic elections.
Obama’s passive approach is a signal to the mullahs in Iran that they can do as they please, without reprimand, or consequence. They already shut down communication, banned foreign press, and are creating a black out. Next is a declaration of curfews, killing of protesters in the streets, and jailing those who resist. Order will be restored by force. Take it from someone who has lived through this scenario.
mperek on June 16, 2009 at 2:34 PM
More likely she’s trolling AP than Ed’s old gig.
Who did she remind you of?
Sir Napsalot on June 16, 2009 at 2:35 PM
“…the people of Asia and Africa have seen through the slanderous campaign conducted by the U.S.A. against the Socialist countries. They know that their independence is threatened not by any of the countries in the Socialist camp but by the U.S.A., who has surrounded their continent with military bases. The Communist bogey is an American stunt to distract the attention of the people of Africa from the real issue facing them, namely, American imperialism.”
- Nelson Mandela, The Struggle is My Life (p. 76)
aengus on June 16, 2009 at 2:35 PM
bingo, but the real world and the world isolationist ideologues live in are completely different places.
jp on June 16, 2009 at 2:38 PM
“The Iranian situation is going rather well right now, there is actual popular uprising, that last thing that we need is to give the other side more fuel. ”
Yeh, I’m really enjoying the violence and the news black out.
Vera71 on June 16, 2009 at 2:38 PM
Well what do you prescribe, jack@ss? We’re not actually the most popular voice in the Middle East. And if you took my whole quote, it was our finger wagging in the past that helped put Amanutjob in office. If they think the reform party is a US front, or at least too cozy with us, that will hurt whatever momentum they have. This is nothing like Poland because we don’t have an overt clash of imperialist powers like the Cold War.
LevStrauss on June 16, 2009 at 2:47 PM
Aengus — You may not realize this but it was a Republican controlled Senate that voted to overturn Reagan’s veto against sanctions for South Africa. Guess those Republican senators were a bunch of commie lovers too.
Reagan stood with a brutally repressive South African government and made no efforts to encourage them to moderate their stance on Apartheid or support any resistence groups that weren’t communist. You can try & ignore that all you want but it was shameful.
Teresa on June 16, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Then I’m retarded. I’ve never owned a cell phone, and have only used one a few times. I bet there are millions of Americans who are cell phone retarded.
Loxodonta on June 16, 2009 at 2:48 PM
A very insightful and sad commentary on 50 year decline of American “journalism.”
Loxodonta on June 16, 2009 at 2:52 PM
And the sky is blue.
Some posts are so obviously sarcastic that they don’t need a /sarc. You might try reading slower to increase your reading comprehension.
warden on June 16, 2009 at 3:01 PM
When the slogan of the day on right wing blogs (including this one) is “fight now or fight later” it isn’t a reductio ad absurdum argument.
Nonfactor on June 16, 2009 at 3:14 PM
Lemme guess. Took history in the US Govt schools system,right?
Hmmmmmm…let’s see…use strong language about the actions of a country that was a puppet of the Soviet Union…which ALREADY HAD NUKES!!!!, vs being afraid to use strong language against a country that is, by your description “heading towards nukes”. Not sure which one was more risky. Just guessing, but I gotta say Reagan was taking the bigger risk…and wasn’t afraid of what anyone else would think!
If our foreign policy is based on being afraid of how some country will perceive us, well…we are absolutely doomed to destruction.
Fed45 on June 16, 2009 at 3:15 PM
“Leadership vs. Management” and yet you fools want Mitt in 12.
alliebobbitt on June 16, 2009 at 3:15 PM
I havent seen a single progressive make that claim. I would understand if they did, given how neocons generally think the answer to any question is “bomb Iran”, but I still havent seen it.
What’s the benefit of coming out strongly? Inspiring the Iranian protestors? I dont really think they want or need our inspiration.
If Ahmadinejad had come out in support of McCain in October, would that have inspired Republicans? Or if he had supported Obama, would it have inspired Democrats?
It’s great that you guys are super-patriotic, but you need to understand that not all of the rest of the world views America as the totally awesome thing that you do.
If Obama says the stuff that you want him to say, then Ahmadinejad gets to paint Mousavi as an American puppet and the revolution dies.
Your comparison to Poland is highly inapt. Solidarity was anti-communist, as we were. It made sense for Reagan to support them, as they surely were glad to have his support.
Mousavi has not indicated that he wants our support, and there are good reasons to believe it would be counterproductive. One of the reasons is that Mousavi isnt exactly some great hero, from our perspective. He might be preferable (from our perspective) to Ahmedinejad, but his worldview doesnt align all that closely to ours.
orange on June 16, 2009 at 3:18 PM
And guess who wrote this just a few days ago: “Only regime change can bring an end to the threat of Iranian nukes. Only a regime change can end the regional threat the Iranian mullahcracy maintains, as well as an end to the proxy war against the Israelis by Iranian-funded Hamas and Hezbollah. Barack Obama needs to start pushing in that direction.”
How passive aggressive.
Nonfactor on June 16, 2009 at 3:20 PM
But people are people, and people have the right to live free from the fear of tyranny, whether they are Polish or Iranian. And when unarmed civilians, men, women and children, are being brutally attacked and threatened by tyrants, what should one do?
Remain silent? Equivocate? Rationalize? Wait for poll results before taking a position? Remain open to talking with the tyrants without condition?
What kind of person speaks out against brutal dictators and in support of the suppressed? People who care about the lives and freedom of not just themselves, but others. People like Ronald Reagan.
What kind of person appeases bullies while offering no aid or even comfort to their victims? People who are afraid of being bullied or who care more about themselves than anyone else. People like Neville Chamberlain and Barack Hussein Obama II.
Which of these types of people do you want being responsible for the safety and security of Americans? Think about it.
Loxodonta on June 16, 2009 at 3:23 PM
I bet you don’t get this worked up about oppression in Africa.
Nonfactor on June 16, 2009 at 3:27 PM
“This is nothing like Poland because we don’t have an overt clash of imperialist powers like the Cold War.
LevStrauss on June 16, 2009 at 2:47 PM”
Thanks for the nice name. I was just pointing out that this situation has only escalated. You’re right, we’re not in the Cold War, but there are folks living under regimes like Iran that look to the West and the U.S. to at least speak out against oppression. Frankly, I was hoping that B. Obama would take the lead in this situation as did Reagan in the Cold War. Since he seems to be rather popular in the Middle East and around the world, I was hoping he would take this opportunity to speak up for a peaceful protest. Perhaps, he could use this good will and speak up to stop this violence.
Vera71 on June 16, 2009 at 3:32 PM
No. The objection to twitter is that it stunts expression. Imagine the preamble to the constitution, if it had to be cut to 140 characters:
So, what have we got left:
Aaaand — it’s still too long.
Text messages of this length may be okay for letting the kids know I’ll be in a meeting and out of reach for an hour, or asking the wife to record Mythbusters for me; but for serious communication of important and complex issues, it is disgraceful to PURPOSELY limit oneself this way. To present such a stilted discourse to the public is insulting.
RegularJoe on June 16, 2009 at 3:36 PM
Oh. My. God.
Seriously, how complicated is this? As Ronald Reagan used to say: “There are no EASY answers but there are SIMPLE answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right.”
logis on June 16, 2009 at 3:41 PM
This should be good. I haven’t seen a newbie gutted in quite awhile!
BTW loxodonta, I don’t think the earlier comment about phones was intended to demean non-cell-savvy folks. I think the point is that they could pick up SOME sort of telephone, and speak in complete sentences. Or as others have suggested, use Email — still text-based, but without the ridiculous 140-character limitation. I’m no ludite, but I think twitter is for simps, with VERY few exceptions — for example, when the congressman (name escapes me) was providing play-by-play of the ‘Drill, baby, drill!’ lockout last summer.
RegularJoe on June 16, 2009 at 3:43 PM
links please? Specific quotes? Beuhler? Beuhler?
(anonymous callers to talk shows or comments on blogs don’t count, as they reflect the opinion of individuals of no particular influence — not widely held views, or views of influential people. Show me someone with a genuine platform making such a statement right now, and I’ll agree with you that they are being irresponsible.)
RegularJoe on June 16, 2009 at 3:50 PM
So lets see if we gets this straight….
It’s OK to wait to condemn the beatings and murders of protesters because they just might be wrong?
csdeven on June 16, 2009 at 3:51 PM
One regime’s fence-sitting is another regime’s tacit endorsement.
Maquis on June 16, 2009 at 4:00 PM
Look at each speech and count the number of times the word “I” was used. And there you have the difference between a leader and an egomaniac.
redwhiteblue on June 16, 2009 at 4:02 PM
Check the Zimbabwe threads and get back to us, race-baiter.
Loxodonta is a relatively fresh face at HA, a quickly rising star, and his compassion and concern for all peoples far surpass that of those that only cite race for rhetorical gain.
Maquis on June 16, 2009 at 4:04 PM
“One regime’s fence-sitting is another regime’s tacit endorsement.
Maquis on June 16, 2009 at 4:00 PM”
100+
Vera71 on June 16, 2009 at 4:04 PM
Just further proof that Ronald Reagan always acted like a man and Oprompta always acts like a little b****.
PJ Emeritus on June 16, 2009 at 4:11 PM
I hate to say this because I’ll be attacked, but the unpleasant fact is, we started on this course when women were give the right to vote. Don’t believe me? Do you really think a guy would care about an Obama/Michelle date or how about the Al Gore/ Tipper stage, I mean staged kiss. All done to sway women.
Without women voters, the Democratic Party couldn’t be elected for dog catcher.
Jeff from WI on June 16, 2009 at 4:14 PM
Thanks. I figured that out later, but have to keep up my rep as a technologically phobic old hermit that is clueless about contemporary culture. So, I’m sticking with my earlier statement.
Loxodonta on June 16, 2009 at 4:15 PM
I’m disturbed that our President gets his news about Iran from TV.
Agreed.
MNExpatriate on June 16, 2009 at 4:24 PM
I would hope you don’t place too much money on it, for you would lose that bet. Perhaps you have mistaken my meaning. I don’t support Mousavi. He’s only a “moderate” among radical Islamic thugs. However, tyranny and brutality anywhere is unacceptable to me, regardless of who’s doing it to whom.
Loxodonta on June 16, 2009 at 4:32 PM
Oh, and using Ronald Reagan as an example of someone that “speaks out against brutal dictators and in support of the suppressed” is a bit historically ignorant.
Nonfactor on June 16, 2009 at 4:40 PM
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