Senior U.S. official: Yes, the Iranian election was rigged; Update: 50-100 dead? Update: We’ll still work with Iran, says White House

posted at 3:47 pm on June 13, 2009 by Allahpundit

The White House is playing it cool lest U.S. support for Mousavi discredit his supporters but U.S. analysts have little doubt. The fix is indeed in:

U.S. analysts find it “not credible” that challenger Mir Hossein Mousavi would have lost the balloting in his hometown or that a third candidate, Mehdi Karoubi, would have received less than 1 percent of the total vote, a senior U.S. officials told FOX News.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khameini apparently has released a statement calling the results “final” and hailing the election as a legitimization of the regime and its elections…

The dominant view among Obama administration officials is that the regime will look so bad as a result of whipping up Iranian hopes for democracy and then squelching them that the regime may feel compelled to show some conciliatory response to Obama’s gestures of engagement.

Maybe. Or maybe popular unrest will force them to clamp down harder, become more recalcitrant about negotiations, and double down on nationalist propaganda about nukes to get the public back on their side. More from Time on what a shabby fraud this was:

By Saturday morning, the most often repeated exclamation in Tehran was: “It’s not possible!”…

A group of young men said they had talked to their families in the provinces, including Kurdish Kermanshah, Azeri Oroumiyeh and Ardeblil. Mohsen, 23, said, “Everyone in Tabriz [Mousavi's hometown] voted for Mousavi. The official count says a majority for Ahmadinejad. That’s not possible.” Mehdi, 27, chimed in, “Even if just Karroubi’s family in Lorestan had voted for him, he would have won more than 300,000 votes.”

More serious allegations came from officials involved in the various reformist candidates’ campaigns. Mohammad-Ali Abtahi, part of opposition figure Mehdi Karroubi’s campaign, pointed out that the government “announced a wholesale figure of 70% for Ahmadinejad last night, as opposed to breaking it down province by province as they usually do.” The first figures were announced shortly after voting closed, he added. A breakdown of how people in each city and province voted has not been released yet.

At the Mousavi headquarters, former Interior Minister Ali Akbar Mohtashamipour protested that Mousavi observers had not gained access to many of the polling centers. He also said that in Tabriz, Mousavi’s birthplace, many of the polling stations had run out of ballots only two hours after opening, even though about 59 million ballots had been printed by the government, about 13 million more than the number of eligible voters.

The regime shut down text messaging across the country yesterday too to hamper organization of the protests they knew would follow the results. Even so, the Beeb says street violence today is the worst Tehran has seen in 10 years, replete with Iranian cops beating women with nightsticks. The clip below will give you a taste but see Michael Totten for more vids, including one of a monster rally where protesters chanted “Death to the government.” There’s also a hot rumor going around that Rafsanjani, the former president of Iran, current head of the powerful Assembly of Experts, and rival-in-chief to Ahmadinejad, has resigned from the Expediency Council in protest of the results, a move which should go a long way towards delegitimizing them. After 30 years, only a diehard optimist would bet on this clusterfark exploding into full-fledged counterrevolution, but the more discredited the regime is and the more alienated Iranians feel from it, the more leverage the west has to get tough with them over the nuclear impasse. Assuming, of course, that the political will to do so exists. Which it doesn’t.

As I write this, news is breaking that Mousavi’s been arrested, which would be the second big mistake the mullahs have made in the last 24 hours. Three questions now as things heat up. One: Why didn’t they rig the vote in a more convincing way? Everyone expected the margin to be close after such a nasty campaign; a close Ahmadinejad win, with Mousavi victorious in the urban areas he was supposed to carry, would have been credible. I guess they figured that a narrow defeat would be treated as even more suspect by Mousavi’s supporters, so they went in the opposite direction and made it a landslide — to an implausible degree, as it turned out. Two: With the regime more illegitimate than ever, where does this leave The One vis-a-vis nuke negotiations? He’s been careful in the past to distinguish Khamenei from the more toxic Ahmadinejad, but Khamenei blessed the results today as a “divine assessment.” His credibility’s shot now, too. If Obama meets with him anyway, it’ll put the U.S. on the side of a sham government against the Iranian people more starkly than ever before. Three: Did Khamenei order the election rigged on Ahmadinejad’s behalf or did Ahmadinejad order the election rigged on his own behalf? That is to say, who really controls the levers of power in Iran? If you read nothing else I’ve linked here, at least read this fascinating interview in the Nation with a former Iranian minister who argues that because Dinnerjacket is closely allied with the fantastically powerful Revolutionary Guard (and a former Guardsman himself) and oversees the ministries that keep Khamenei informed of what’s happening, he can effectively isolate and manipulate him. Maybe — maybe — the situation in Iran is now less a case of Khamenei using Ahmadinejad as a public mouthpiece than vice versa. Good luck, Barry.

Update: At the Standard, Stephen Hayes says it’s time for a new Obama speech challenging the results on behalf of the Iranian people. If he does that, though, then nuke negotiations are well and truly dead; the regime’s not going to chat with a guy who’s basically calling for it to be overthrown, in which case the military option is the only solution left to stopping an Iranian bomb. Think The One’s going to leave himself with that hand?

Update: Another must-read at Foreign Policy’s blog The Cable rounding up reaction from Iranian experts. No one but no one is taking the election numbers seriously, which makes this a full-blown legitimacy crisis for a regime that’s never been very legitimate to begin with. I can’t believe they FUBAR’d the fix this badly.

Update: Tehran Bureau, a site for independent Iranian journalism, claims there are 50 to 100 people dead from Iranian cops’ thuggery at protests today. Plus thus tidbit, proving that this is in fact a coup:

Two interesting points on Iranian election:

1. After election results were announced, the election committee must wait for three days to accept any grievances for any irregularity before certify the results.

2. The results of election needs to be certified by the Council of Experts before it goes to the Leader for final approval

Today neither of these two rules were followed and the Leader in his speech approved the results of the election and asked all parties involved to work with Ahmadinejad.

Follow the link for videos galore. And see this post too for a graph that’s as much of a smoking gun as LGF’s famous Rathergate graphic was.

Update: Steve Hayes had better not hold his breath waiting for that Obama speech. The White House says it’s full speed ahead on “dialogue.”

The Obama administration is determined to press on with efforts to engage the Iranian government, senior officials said Saturday, despite misgivings about irregularities in the re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad…

“This is the worst result,” said Thomas R. Pickering, a former under secretary of state. “The U.S. will have to worry about being perceived as pandering to a president whose legitimacy is in question. It clearly makes the notion of providing incentives quite unappetizing.”

Presumably the thinking here is that public outrage in Iran will weaken the mullahs’ hand against the U.S. and force them to accept some grand bargain, in which case Obama’s basically offering them legitimacy in exchange for denuclearization. The more likely outcome, though, is that the regime will continue to jerk him around while it builds a bomb and then count on its announcement that Iran has become a nuclear state to stoke national pride and win over its disaffected public. In which case Obama will have given them legitimacy in exchange for nothing. Terrific.

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Well I don’t think they would be parading in the streets either if Israel bombed their nuclear facilities. But I don’t think your average Iranian would want to go to war with Israel on this issue either.

Even non-religious (or whatever they call themselves) Iranians believe Iran deserves the bomb – same in other non-Islamic countries.

On your Lebanon analysis. It’s only the Maronite Christians that are backing Hezbollah. And its probably b/c Assad, paid off their leader Michel Aoun.

Lance Murdock on June 13, 2009 at 4:36 PM

ONLY? I thought the Maronites were a large chunk… Further, it shows that if the leaders of the Christians get what they want, they will lead their sheep to be slaughtered.

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 4:41 PM

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 4:35 PM

Getting rid of Ahmadinejad alone doesn’t help anybody. He’s just a mouthpiece. The Mullahs must go and I haven’t been impressed with our new leader that he can handle this situation. That said, it’s been what the powers that be have said needed to happen for years. I guess if it looks like the U.S. can’t get it’s foot in the door for a better position, it will be time to green light Israel to go for the nuke facilities. What could go wrong?

Cindy Munford on June 13, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Well, as long as he let’s Obama lick his toes, the left will be happy.

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 4:14 PM

Personally, I’d like to see that myself.

Loxodonta on June 13, 2009 at 4:42 PM

The solution to domestic strife….start a war.

Israel, are your ears on? Yes? Good, because the mysterious Mahdi is about to make a lot of noise.

Limerick on June 13, 2009 at 4:43 PM

THe real danger is that Iran might just attack Israel to regain legimitacy. That is what Al Qaeda did.

Or worse yet they now HAVE to create nukes as a prestige item.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:43 PM

YYZ on June 13, 2009 at 4:40 PM

It’s al-Guarniad. A paper with less legitimacy than the Sun.

Dude even called the pedophile goat buggerer “honest.” Yeah, I think I’ll pass on giving that one credibility.

PimFortuynsGhost on June 13, 2009 at 4:44 PM

Wow. So AchManDidJihad learned well how to work an election in his favor. Is there an ACORN office in Iran? LOL

What happened? I thought Obama could walk on water? Yet he can’t control Iranian elections? tsk tsk tsk.

Is this what we’ll be looking forward to here, in 2012?

capejasmine on June 13, 2009 at 4:44 PM

How do you arrive at that? The fact is that military action is the only option.

progressoverpeace on June 13, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Probably on our part… er… I mean for our interests.

I think if there was military action, those “moderate” Iranians would probably melt away…

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 4:44 PM

YIKES !!!!!

Israel’s Foreign Minister Cozies Up to Moscow

CLIFFORD J. LEVY
Published: June 13, 2009

MOSCOW — “Would you mind speaking without an interpreter?” Vladimir V. Putin asked, and his visitor, Avigdor Lieberman, Israel’s new foreign minister, responded that he could not imagine doing business any other way. The two then chatted in Russian, as if their meeting this month were a homecoming for a local boy who made good.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:44 PM

yeah I know. I bet the Mullahs would have had second thoughts with Rumsfeld at the Penatgon and Bush as president.

rob verdi on June 13, 2009 at 4:36 PM

Ha! I can bet you one thing. With those forces there and the will to use them the Iranians would have to worry about the consequences of any strategic moves they contemplated. Maybe nothing would have happened differently but now they can scratch off “Possible American response” from their “to do” list.

elduende on June 13, 2009 at 4:45 PM

I can’t believe they FUBAR’d the fix this badly.

I am really amazed by all this surprise. Hasn’t anyone been paying attention to Iran for the last 30 years. They are bald-faced liars and have been so, right out in the open, all along. I defy anyone to show me where the Iranians have kept their word about anything.

I am really confused by this reaction to the “election” in Iran. Has everyone (who expresses this amazement) lost their minds or just forgotten history?

progressoverpeace on June 13, 2009 at 4:45 PM

What could go wrong?

Cindy Munford on June 13, 2009 at 4:42 PM

*shivers* running up back…

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 4:45 PM

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:44 PM

Can you blame him? Putin is more trustworthy than Ogabe.

PimFortuynsGhost on June 13, 2009 at 4:46 PM

Update: At the Standard, Stephen Hayes says it’s time for a new Obama speech challenging the results on behalf of the Iranian people. If he does that …

He will not do that. Yesterday he outrageously acted like the election was taking place as in a free society and even patted himself on the back for his Cairo speech paving the way to “robust debate” taking place there (he also took credit he in no way deserves for the recent election results in Lebanon). He is an egotistcal fool whose sympathies don’t tend to denouncing tryannical regimes, but rather portraying them as something they are not.

KittyLowrey on June 13, 2009 at 4:46 PM

Not to mention a guy who had a hand in the Beirut bombing of the barracks and subsequent kidnappings of Westerners. Yeah, really moderate guy that Mousavi …

progressoverpeace on June 13, 2009 at 4:12 PM

Exactly. There really isn’t any difference between the candidates other than that one is more outspoken. The Mullahs control Iran, and whoever is president has to answer to them. If the election wasn’t rigged it would be a big surprise not the other way around.

My guess is the mullahs either think they can control one candidate better than the other or one of them knows just a bit too much and needed to be appeased. At any rate, and it chokes me to say this, but I agree with Jimmuh Carter, nothing would have changed no matter who won.

As for the Iranian people, I think the majority go along to get along, and the demonstrators we see on tv are typical of those you see everywhere..young people, extremists, or speople who have nothing better to do.

Deanna on June 13, 2009 at 4:46 PM

North Korea is setting off nukes, Iran is getting worse as well as Iraq. The Afghan war is flaring up.

Can we admit now that Obamadiplomacy is a failure ?

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Admit? I knew Obama would fail before he got the Uhh, Uhh out of his mouth.

izoneguy on June 13, 2009 at 4:46 PM

Can you blame him? Putin is more trustworthy than Ogabe.

PimFortuynsGhost on June 13, 2009 at 4:46 PM

Or they are asking the russians to stay nuetral in prelude to an attack.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:47 PM

50-100 dead reported….. Meaning the number is at least 10 times that at minimum…. and that’s just in one place.

Wake up, America.

It’s coming here for the 2010 elections…… that’s if we even have elections.

Kenny Solomon
Locked and loaded in South Flori-duh.

E T Cartman on June 13, 2009 at 4:47 PM

I think if there was military action, those “moderate” Iranians would probably melt away…

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 4:44 PM

So? There are no great numbers of “moderate” Iranians and they will never hold power, there, anyway.

progressoverpeace on June 13, 2009 at 4:47 PM

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:47 PM

Ah hah! I didn’t immediately think of that–I was thinking of hedging their bets in case of pressure from Teh One ™ to end settlements. Good point.

PimFortuynsGhost on June 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:47 PM

It’s pretty gutsy considering the lack of accommodation in the past.

Cindy Munford on June 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:40 PM
progressoverpeace on June 13, 2009 at 4:47 PM

I agree with progress. A more propitious time for an Israeli attack will not come again soon.

elduende on June 13, 2009 at 4:51 PM

Worse yet

Judge rules that terrorist can sue US for torture.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Even non-religious (or whatever they call themselves) Iranians believe Iran deserves the bomb – same in other non-Islamic countries.

Well they have been convince by the regime that they need nuclear power and bomb that goes along with it. But what people really want are jobs, good jobs and the end to isolation. Most Iranians would give up the nuclear power if it meant that their lives would dramatically improve.

ONLY? I thought the Maronites were a large chunk… Further, it shows that if the leaders of the Christians get what they want, they will lead their sheep to be slaughtered.

They are a large chuck, the Catholic Church is pretty large too. And they sided with the March 14th movement. Another reason why Hezbollah lost was b/c your average Maronite probably hates Hezbollah too and voted for the other Christian parties.

Lance Murdock on June 13, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Obama’s probably on the phone with ACORN right now saying, “See what happened in Iran? I hope you guys are taking notes…”

NightmareOnKStreet on June 13, 2009 at 4:53 PM

Judge rules that terrorist can sue US for torture.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Un-f**king-believable.

progressoverpeace on June 13, 2009 at 4:53 PM

Senior U.S. official: Yes, the Iranian election was rigged

The US elections were rigged too. ACORN anyone?

Kjeil on June 13, 2009 at 4:55 PM

Good background music for Netanyahu’s “reply to Obama” tomorrow, don’t you think?

CK MacLeod on June 13, 2009 at 4:56 PM

So? There are no great numbers of “moderate” Iranians and they will never hold power, there, anyway.

progressoverpeace on June 13, 2009 at 4:47 PM

Yeah, I really don’t care if they did melt away. My point is that I don’t think we should have the attitude that if we did intervene militarily that they’d embrace us. We should do it simply for our and Israel’s protection. No rebuilding Iran, please.

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 4:56 PM

Oh Good GOD !

DHS official pledges to protect civil liberties while combating terrorism

Washington — A senior official of the Department of Homeland Security pledged to a gathering of Arab Americans on Saturday “to continue to work with you” to protect civil liberties while combating terrorist threats.

Lute pointed to Obama’s recent speech in Cairo in which he reached out to Muslims and the Arab world as “starting a new page.”

Lute said the president “set the tone and the direction and the intent of this administration in turning a new page and starting a new chapter in our relationship. One that is built on mutual respect, mutual regard, committed to listen and learn from each other.”

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:56 PM

More Barry hardball….

North Korea’s threat to “weaponise” its plutonium stocks is deeply regrettable, says US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. -BBC

Well if that don’t scare the crud outta them I don’t know what will.

Limerick on June 13, 2009 at 4:56 PM

Update: Steve Hayes had better not hold his breath waiting for that Obama speech. The White House says it’s full speed ahead on “dialogue.”

Great.

Weight of Glory on June 13, 2009 at 4:57 PM

Hopefully Bambi will go on a date or have another fundraiser. Just STFU this time.

faol on June 13, 2009 at 4:58 PM

Limerick on June 13, 2009 at 4:56 PM

LOL!

elduende on June 13, 2009 at 4:58 PM

I’m sooooooo surprised at all this

/Iranisarc

blatantblue on June 13, 2009 at 4:59 PM

It’s probably an open question whether Khamenei controls the RG or the other way around. Either way Ahmadinejad et al are firmly in control at least of nuke negotiations and the Interior Ministry.

Keep in mind that the Interior Ministry is also in charge of monitoring polling stations and counting the votes – the hardliners knew what they were doing when they started targeting specific organs of state more than a decade ago.

In any case, you’ve got a situation where the messianic hardliners either have Khamenei’s ear or they’re powerful enough to force his hand. The speed with which Khamenei sanctified the results means that it’s definitely – and unequivocally – one or the other.

In either case negotiations are a fool’s errand. At best the regime will make some noises about positive steps and leak some “mixed signals” to pliant journalists, the better to run out the clock.

On the plus side, we’ve all but officially taken regime change off the table. So there’s that.

omriceren on June 13, 2009 at 4:59 PM

Worse yet

Judge rules that terrorist can sue US for torture.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:52 PM

OMG! Unbelievable!

bazil9 on June 13, 2009 at 4:59 PM

Maybe jimmeh can fix this

/Ahmadinesarc

blatantblue on June 13, 2009 at 5:00 PM

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:44 PM

Our chickens coming home to roost? Don’t blame them. We’ll see if Dear Leader likes playing hardball.

a capella on June 13, 2009 at 5:00 PM

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 4:56 PM

I agree wholeheartedly, especially on the “No rebuilding Iran, please” part.

I’d even be tempted to salt the fields, if necessary. I’ve had more than enough of this idiocy that we are beholden to repair the countries that have made themselves threats to us and forced our action. And too many Westerners don’t seem to understand that there is no such thing as “building up goodwill” in the middle east and gulf. That is just not how most of their cultures tend to work. Their alliances move on a daily basis, without any regard for history.

progressoverpeace on June 13, 2009 at 5:02 PM

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Gee I wonder why they filed in San Francisco?

Cindy Munford on June 13, 2009 at 5:02 PM

Lookie, folks. It’s summer, the tradition Homo-sapien campaign season, and I don’t reference politics when I say campaign. All these despots have been sizing up Barry and the Crew for six months. Time for that ‘test’ Old Plugs was whispering(loudly) about.

Limerick on June 13, 2009 at 5:02 PM

Wake up, America.

It’s coming here for the 2010 elections…… that’s if we even have elections.

You sound like the left for the past 8 years.

kahall on June 13, 2009 at 5:02 PM

The Obama administration is determined to press on with efforts to engage the Iranian government, senior officials said Saturday, despite misgivings about irregularities in the re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad…

JESUS CHRIST!!

WE really do have an Anti-Democratic thug in the White House. F democracy, human rights. It’s all about power isn’t Barry? Well SCREW YOU and your personality cult!

Lance Murdock on June 13, 2009 at 5:02 PM

No one but no one is taking the election numbers seriously

Wrong. A columnist at The Guardian (of course) is.

The sentimental implausibility of Ahmedinejad’s victory that Mousavi’s supporters set forth as the evidence of state corruption must be met by the equal implausibility that such widespread corruption could take place under clear daylight. So, until hard evidence emerges that can substantiate the claims of the opposition camp we need to look to other reasons to explain why so many are stunned by the day’s events.

*sigh*

YYZ on June 13, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Simple, the world media had a very bad case of hopenchange feevah! THE Cairo speech was going to change,change,change everything…

Caper29 on June 13, 2009 at 5:03 PM

Judge rules that terrorist can sue US for torture.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Cliff Thier at American Thinker points out that this opens a new can of worms:

Now that a federal judge has okayed suing members of the executive branch for doing their jobs and for merely giving their legal opinion. I wonder what damages I could ask for.

This is all part of Obama’s Stimulus Plan for lawyers.

Loxodonta on June 13, 2009 at 5:03 PM

Presumably the thinking here is that public outrage in Iran will weaken the mullahs’ hand against the U.S. and force them to accept some grand bargain,

Ridiculous. If that is their “thinking” then we’re screwed. public outrage didn’t stop the rigging of the election. Public outrage didn’t stop the RG from killing protesters. Public outrage didn’t stop them from shutting down all cell phone usage (FOX just reporting). Public outrage will not offer Obama ANY significant playing card against the rulers of Iran. You’re right, AP we will receive nothing in return.

Weight of Glory on June 13, 2009 at 5:03 PM

In which case Obama will have given them legitimacy in exchange for nothing. Terrific.

That sounds like just the kind of ‘smart power’ I would expect to see from Obama.

AUINSC on June 13, 2009 at 5:03 PM

Gee I wonder why they filed in San Francisco?

Cindy Munford on June 13, 2009 at 5:02 PM

I left my heart democracy in san fran Sisco…..

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM

Well they have been convince by the regime that they need nuclear power and bomb that goes along with it. But what people really want are jobs, good jobs and the end to isolation. Most Iranians would give up the nuclear power if it meant that their lives would dramatically improve.

Again, I think this would be great to see happen, but I am extremely skeptical. nationalism and now islamism has gripped this region for the last decade.

They are a large chuck, the Catholic Church is pretty large too. And they sided with the March 14th movement. Another reason why Hezbollah lost was b/c your average Maronite probably hates Hezbollah too and voted for the other Christian parties.

Lance Murdock on June 13, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Well, I’m glad some are doing the right thing, but I still don’t think they stood up WITH Israel like they should have. They may have themselves to blame in the end… And according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite_Catholic there are ~1.4 million Maronites out of the ~3.9 (living in) Lebanese living in Lebanon. Of course this is all hard given that many Lebanese live abroad… and many of them are Maronite.

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM

Guys, please stay on topic. Don’t want to have to delete comments.

Allahpundit on June 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM

I can’t wait to read Roger Cohen’s next piece on this situation. Somehow I’m guessing he’ll blame the Jooos.

Lance Murdock on June 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:52 PM

Betting that if this judges ruling reaches a higher court…it won’t be denied.

9/11 victims families, and USS Cole families should then sue the nations that bred the terrorists. Saudi, Somalia, Yemen, etc…

capejasmine on June 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM

can we survive 3 and half more years of Obama over Foreign Policy?

jp on June 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM

Allahpundit on June 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM

And ladies, carry on as usual. heh!

kahall on June 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM

Guys, please stay on topic. Don’t want to have to delete comments.

Allahpundit on June 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM

Sorry Allah its a busy day

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 5:06 PM

I agree wholeheartedly, especially on the “No rebuilding Iran, please” part.

I’d even be tempted to salt the fields, if necessary. I’ve had more than enough of this idiocy that we are beholden to repair the countries that have made themselves threats to us and forced our action. And too many Westerners don’t seem to understand that there is no such thing as “building up goodwill” in the middle east and gulf. That is just not how most of their cultures tend to work. Their alliances move on a daily basis, without any regard for history.

progressoverpeace on June 13, 2009 at 5:02 PM

And I agree wholeheartedly with you. Nation building has been a turn off to me for two reasons…

1) just what you said

2) If we’re going to do it, we should do it right and expect to be in it for the long haul…

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:07 PM

Allahpundit on June 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM

Oooops. Sorry, chief.

Limerick on June 13, 2009 at 5:07 PM

I too wonder how long this country can survive “Obungler”.

rplat on June 13, 2009 at 5:08 PM

Maybe jimmeh can fix this

/Ahmadinesarc

blatantblue on June 13, 2009 at 5:00 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090613/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_palestinians_carter_1

In the West Bank, Carter was awarded the Palestine International Award for Excellence and Creativity. Previous recipients included two former international envoys, James Wolfensohn and Peter Hansen.

“I have been in love with the Palestinian people for many years,” he said Saturday, adding that this is a feeling shared by members of his family.

“I have two great-grandsons that are rapidly learning about the people here and the anguish and suffering and deprivation of human rights that you have experienced ever since 1948,” he said.

Carter, 85, pledged his “assistance, as long as I live, to win your freedom, your independence, your sovereignty and a good life.”

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 4:05 PM

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:09 PM

Tocqueville pointed out about 150 years ago that when an authoritarian regime starts to enact even small reforms that the hopes of the people increase and if those hopes aren’t further satisfied that the regime will be in trouble.

Apparently, the Mullahs were so confident that they could hold even this deep of a sham election that they could risk even the smallest of openings (Mousavi’s wife, for example, was talking about greater freedom).

As AP and others have noted, this really puts to a test Obama’s “unclenched fist” approach to dealing with repressive regimes.

SteveMG on June 13, 2009 at 5:09 PM

The Iranians are having their Teinanamen moment it isnt the same as the Lebanese situation.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 5:09 PM

kahall on June 13, 2009 at 5:02 PM

One slight difference, kahall…….

The folks in power right now – the ones who are actually pulling Teh Mess-I-Yah’s strings – they make the left in this country (including people like Soros) look like hot dog vendors on the streets of NYC.

They’re going for the brass ring….. Complete Fascistic control.

I pray I’m wrong, but I know I’m not. Look at the legislation over the past 5 months… mostly unconstitutional, but there’s zero challenges…… this is getting scary.

But hey….. we’re the ones with all the guns.

I can imagine what will happen when they try to take over 350 million legally owned guns away from over 88 million legal gun owners.

E T Cartman on June 13, 2009 at 5:09 PM

Guys, please stay on topic. Don’t want to have to delete comments.

Allahpundit on June 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM

Yes, sir.

Loxodonta on June 13, 2009 at 5:09 PM

The more likely outcome, though, is that the regime will continue to jerk him around while it builds a bomb and then count on its announcement that Iran has become a nuclear state to stoke national pride and win over its disaffected public. In which case Obama will have given them legitimacy in exchange for nothing. Terrific.

Yup! I’m pretty sure Obama , with the help of the msm, believes he is God, and can do anything.

It’s never been done in Jesus name, or Allahs, or Buddas, but by golly it WILL be done, in Obama’s name. *sigh*

capejasmine on June 13, 2009 at 5:11 PM

The Iranians are having their Teinanamen moment it isnt the same as the Lebanese situation.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 5:09 PM

What do you mean?

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:11 PM

Great news! An election that TheWon and his thugs in Acorn (and the slaver party) can appreciate. Arresting the opponents, stuffing the ballot boxes, thugs killing opposing supporters..what is not to like for a Kenyan, grown up in Indonesia, and trained in Chicago by Ayers and Wright??

Of course we will dialogue with Iran…Hussein can relate to them much better than with Americans.

iconoclast on June 13, 2009 at 5:12 PM

“This is the worst result,” said Thomas R. Pickering, a former under secretary of state. “The U.S. will have to worry about being perceived as pandering to a president whose legitimacy is in question. It clearly makes the notion of providing incentives quite unappetizing.”

Uh oh… wouldn’t want that.

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:13 PM

E T Cartman on June 13, 2009 at 5:09 PM

I get what your saying and I love your passion but you’re not helping. There will be elections in 10 & 12 so don’t even go there.

kahall on June 13, 2009 at 5:13 PM

GW’s Pakistan gets hung out to dry because, according to the Democraps, we weren’t supporting the peeps.

BO’s Iran, NORK, and Venezuela get the wink wink nod nod when the peeps get stomped on and the Democraps attack Rush Limbaugh.

Yet the people sleepwalk right through it all. Why am I not surprised?

Limerick on June 13, 2009 at 5:14 PM

What do you mean?

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:11 PM

In other words the same people who were in power in China in 1997 are still there. There is little likelyhood that Iran is going to go moderate anytime soon.

The have had the same kind of indoctrination that the Pakistanis have had with the taliban. They will spin anyone who challenges them as “anti Islamic” and use that to give themselves legitimacy like the chinese did pushing those those who protested it as “anti Communist”.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 5:14 PM

I really want to see someone in the MSM label these protesters as Far Right… Or Rightwing Extremist

I wonder if they have a DHS report. I would.

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:14 PM

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM

You made a valid point there. I guess I want to optimistic and want to tell myself that your average person over there isn’t obsessing on when they should go to war with Israel.

Lance Murdock on June 13, 2009 at 5:15 PM

kahall on June 13, 2009 at 5:13 PM

Like I said….. I pray I’m wrong……. I’ll owe ya a beer or ten.

:-)

E T Cartman on June 13, 2009 at 5:15 PM

In other words the same people who were in power in China in 1997 are still there. There is little likelyhood that Iran is going to go moderate anytime soon.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 5:14 PM

Thanks. Clarifies things.

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:16 PM

The more likely outcome, though, is that the regime will continue to jerk him around while it builds a bomb and then count on its announcement that Iran has become a nuclear state to stoke national pride and win over its disaffected public. In which case Obama will have given them legitimacy in exchange for nothing. Terrific.

Not only that Allah, if the “twelvers” (Ajads sect) mullahs get the bomb, they control the bomb. What do you think messianic clerics under threat from outside (Israel)and from inside (reformers) are going to do if they have the means and will to end the “world”…hmmm riddle me that? The key here is the nuke. They can’t get it Period.

elduende on June 13, 2009 at 5:16 PM

You made a valid point there. I guess I want to optimistic and want to tell myself that your average person over there isn’t obsessing on when they should go to war with Israel.

Lance Murdock on June 13, 2009 at 5:15 PM

Yeah… I wish I could be more optimistic about this one, but I think we’ve learned we can’t necessarily give these people the benefit of the doubt. I think reform would be viewed more legitimately if they did it themselves… sure, we could help out like we did in Eastern Europe, but they have to start this reform.

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:18 PM

The more likely outcome, though, is that the regime will continue to jerk him around while it builds a bomb and then count on its announcement that Iran has become a nuclear state to stoke national pride and win over its disaffected public. In which case Obama will have given them legitimacy in exchange for nothing. Terrific.

The real way to handle this is to use the Iranian public’s outrage to catalyze a revolution. But to do that, you need to have revolutionaries (preferably pro-western ones) who have weapons and some planning… And to do that, you need plenty of CIA guys in there over the course of years to build up that kind of scenario. Extremely difficult to do.

Outlander on June 13, 2009 at 5:19 PM

And to do that, you need plenty of CIA guys in there over the course of years to build up that kind of scenario. Extremely difficult to do.

Outlander on June 13, 2009 at 5:19 PM

You cant do that it would put the US in league with the EVIL CIA !
/Nancy Pelosi

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 5:20 PM

Weakness makes evil bolder. Very bad things are afoot. Evil nasty things.

ronsfi on June 13, 2009 at 5:22 PM

Barry has no intention of stopping the Iranian bomb. Barry and the Crew believe that the world can live with an Iranian bomb. This, of course, is based on the assumption that suicidal maniacs really don’t want to die. If we can kill them they will never kill us! Such a beautiful way to deny what they all saw on 9/11.

Limerick on June 13, 2009 at 5:22 PM

You cant do that it would put the US in league with the EVIL CIA !
/Nancy Pelosi

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 5:20 PM

Well, who do you think we’ll send to infiltrate Iran???

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0chi9OwfY79B5/340x.jpg

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:24 PM

sorry lox ;)

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:24 PM

I don,t understand.I thought when Obama made his speech in the middle east ever thing would be just dandy and all would love us again.I guess the One will have to give another speech and tell them if they don,t get there minds right he will bring down fire and brimstone on them.After all Evan Thomas at newsweek called him God last week.

thmcbb on June 13, 2009 at 5:25 PM

If Obama was capable of telling the truth he’d say:

I inherited this problem from Jimmy Carter.

Buy Danish on June 13, 2009 at 5:26 PM

I inherited this problem from Jimmy Carter.

Buy Danish on June 13, 2009 at 5:26 PM

Din’t Darth Vader turn against the the Emperor in the end?

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:28 PM

Din’t = Didn’t

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:29 PM

Iran is ruled by ruthless bullies. Tyrants are always more emboldened by weakness. I fear for the Iranian people, and for the Israeli people. And, once Iran gets the bomb, how do we stop proliferation all over the Middle East? The risks of tyranny, nuclear war, terrorism and nuclear terrorism are increasing due Obama’s reckless appeasement.

Loxodonta on June 13, 2009 at 5:31 PM

Barry is going to work with them where there is a fraudulent election and unrest, but is unwilling to work with our own states. No wonder the secession movement is strong

ConservativePartyNow on June 13, 2009 at 5:33 PM

I guess it shouldnt’ be surprising, that even though the Iranian election was rigged, the White House is anxious to work with them — after all, the 2008 election here was rigged too

ToddonCapeCod on June 13, 2009 at 5:34 PM

Never let it be said that fixing elections doesn’t pay out HUGE with Chicago Machine pols!

SuperCool on June 13, 2009 at 5:34 PM

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 5:33 PM

I really thought you made up that headline. That’s something Chris Matthews would say.

Lance Murdock on June 13, 2009 at 5:35 PM

Barry is going to work with them where there is a fraudulent election and unrest, but is unwilling to work with our own states. No wonder the secession movement is strong

ConservativePartyNow on June 13, 2009 at 5:33 PM

Oh, oh, oh… I got one

Bibi was fairly “elected” via the Israeli democratic process in Israel and yet Barry would try to make him illegitimate him…

Meanwhile…

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:38 PM

Is it possible that Obama, and the left, while not overtly saying it, are hoping Iraq lives up to it’s word, and attacks Israel?

I think Irans capable of this. Could it be Obama et al, don’t truly believe they’d try it, or are they hoping it happens? To be honest, I don’t believe they really give a fig about Israel, or having good relations with them.

capejasmine on June 13, 2009 at 5:38 PM

I really thought you made up that headline. That’s something Chris Matthews would say.

Lance Murdock on June 13, 2009 at 5:35 PM

Someone should ask Chris how his leg’s date with TOTUS was last night.

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:39 PM

Sad thing is I read that Newsweek has an article out today that demands Obama get tough

with Israel.

William Amos on June 13, 2009 at 5:39 PM

Looks like Obama’s Bay of Pigs. Kind of a similar situation happened in 2003 when Bush sent a military force into Liberia to support the uprising against President Taylor. It was mostly the left that pressured Bush to do this even as ( or “because” ) we were in the thick of two bloody wars. Taylor was sent packing soon thereafter.

Buddahpundit on June 13, 2009 at 5:39 PM

capejasmine on June 13, 2009 at 5:38 PM

It’s all Booosh’s Lieberman’s fault…

Upstater85 on June 13, 2009 at 5:40 PM

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