Gingrich to Christians: We’re surrounded by “paganism”
posted at 3:37 pm on June 8, 2009 by Allahpundit
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Via Greg Hengler. I couldn’t decide whether to lead with Newt talking about this or Huck insisting at the same event that God interceded to protect Prop 8 in response to Christian prayers. I went with the former because the latter’s point is easily dispensed with: If Huck’s right, how to explain gay marriage passing democratically in New Hampshire? Weren’t Yankee Christians praying hard enough? In any case, both vids are embedded below.
I don’t think Gingrich means capital-P Paganism, as an honest-to-goodness Pagan blogger at Beliefnet understands him to mean. He means lowercase-P paganism, i.e. worshipping any false idol above God. That could mean money, fame, status, power, etc, not just rocks and trees or whatever; by that definition, Christians who devote more of their lives to work or pleasure or what have you instead of to spirituality would be guilty of “paganism” too. Which is perfectly fine and unexceptional for believers — it’s just another way of saying “love God above all things” — but not so fine for nonbelievers, as more than one has noted today. Then again, Newt has never cared much about the sensitivities of atheists, declaring in a speech two years ago at Falwell’s university that the reverend’s death wouldn’t stop the quest “to convert all of America.” I guess when you belong to a party where that constituency is negligible, you can afford to neglect them. Don’t think it goes unnoticed, though. Exit quotation: “I am a citizen of the United States because only in the United States does citizenship start with our Creator.” Isn’t the Koran the constitution of Saudi Arabia?
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Maybe he means “Palinism?”
cannonball on June 8, 2009 at 3:41 PM
He means Obamaism, with a capital “O”.
roux on June 8, 2009 at 3:42 PM
OH good grief… So Allah, you’re equating yourself with the Pagan religion?
Skywise on June 8, 2009 at 3:44 PM
No Huck, I just ate lunch.
portlandon on June 8, 2009 at 3:46 PM
The power of prayer!
Don’t live without it!
christene on June 8, 2009 at 3:47 PM
eh, pagans, atheists, six of one, half dozen of the other…
/sarc
cs89 on June 8, 2009 at 3:47 PM
Your point is noted, but wasn’t the NH issue decided by state legislators rather than directly at the ballot box?
cs89 on June 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM
Cheap, to compare the inalienable rights endowed by the Creator with whatever hooliganism goes on in Saudi Arabia. But in fairness I would have worded it a tad bit differently, were I Gingrich, to specify rights and such and be even more red-meaty.
Of course, the easy fix is to say that Christians and Muslims have completely different Gods, so it’s a moot point.
emailnuevo on June 8, 2009 at 3:51 PM
As a Christian I think your post has some very good points. Many Christians have the wrong idea on the purpose of prayer. Many Christians have a “warm grandfather god, a “Jesus is my buddy” god or worse a “God is my girlfriend” god.
Don’t get me wrong. He is a God of love but much more.
God is sovereign over all his creation. He is keeping all of it together.
God is a god of justice. He has written the law upon our hearts. He will punish evil doers. We have all broken the law.
God is a god of wrath. He will not hold back his anger. We all deserve his wrath.
But, he is a God of mercy and love to those who repent and believe.
shick on June 8, 2009 at 3:52 PM
And the reason this is important is that this country is founded on the assumption that our rights are endowed to us by our creator, not the government. It is God who gives us the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is not for government to dispense these things according to its latest socialist philosophies.
Daggett on June 8, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Most people aren’t looking to be converted from what they’ve spent a life thinking about. Even more so when the person talking about the “converting” is best known for his career in government.
Perhaps New could walk through the 10 Commandments and let us know which of them he thinks are essential to a democratic republic.
dedalus on June 8, 2009 at 3:53 PM
Do my garden gnomes count?
Limerick on June 8, 2009 at 3:54 PM
I think he means P.A.G.A.N. You know… People Against Goodness and Normalcy
Farmer_Joe on June 8, 2009 at 3:54 PM
Also, God was intervening on behalf of the Jewish people forever, and they still went off to Babylon; I think he’s on theological thin ice, that Huck, but let him do his pastor thing. Don’t let him do economics/domestic affairs, and probably foreign policy, but let him have his sermon.
emailnuevo on June 8, 2009 at 3:54 PM
Yeah, but are you suggesting that gay marriage would fail in every state if it went to a public referendum? Including Vermont and NY?
Allahpundit on June 8, 2009 at 3:55 PM
Given that they were the foundation of civilization (moreso if you believe the academic theories that they were “stolen” from other great civilizations at the time) I’d say…
All of them.
Skywise on June 8, 2009 at 3:56 PM
Hey Allah that whole anti-christian bias thing is showing again. Oops! Here’s another oops
Careful here bucko…you are dead wrong and off into territory you know nothing about. Just stick to politics and try to excuse Newt and Huck (and the vast majority of America) for actually believing in God and all that stuff.
johnnybgood on June 8, 2009 at 3:56 PM
I don’t put much stock into what Huck says. And if fate were 100% controlled by our prayers, the world would look a LOT different than it does today.
Daggett on June 8, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Or suggesting that God only intervenes in popular votes and not in legislative votes? Or that God is especially peeved by judicial activism, but is okay with sinful votes that are enacted through the proper legislative channels. I hope that’s not what Huckabee meant.
tneloms on June 8, 2009 at 3:59 PM
Huck and Newt are two peas in the same pod. Massively ego-sentric, squishy conservative (Google “Newt & Global Warming or “Huckabee & compassionate conseravtism”) and sooo 1990s…
Neither will be an important player in 2012 imho
Norwegian on June 8, 2009 at 3:59 PM
Our economy relies on a lot of coveting and many of the politicians who write the laws don’t have a problem with adultery.
Prohibitions against killing, lying and stealing are pretty important but were fundamental to many societies that never heard of Jesus.
dedalus on June 8, 2009 at 4:00 PM
I’ll prefer a monogamous, honest, reliable, “walk the talk” pagan over Newt any day. But I do enjoy Newt and it does give me, a Christian, a warm feeling knowing that Newt enjoys the company of Christians (or is it the company of rich Christians?)
Mark30339 on June 8, 2009 at 4:01 PM
It’s beginning. I hope the Israelis kick Mitchell out and tell Obama to take a flying fudge.
Blake on June 8, 2009 at 4:01 PM
Newt is a brilliant speaker. My complaint is that he is an opportunist with vain principles.
in contrast to
The entire concept of citizenship is too dissimilar, as in Saudi Arabia, are women and children property of men or full fledged citizens with equal rights.
Newt’s premise may stand clear of that particular equivocation. You really ought to ask Newt to clarify, Allahpundit. He’d probably take up your offer and make for some very interesting reading between the two of you.
Any rational person would consider that the atheist stand taken by the ACLU imposes increasing limitations to confront Americans and prevent the free and responsible exercise of our Constitution’s Bill of Rights. To assign the radical identity of the ACLU to all atheists would be as erroneous as to assign to all Christians or Muslims the dogma and radical behavior of any particular (extreme) sect.
maverick muse on June 8, 2009 at 4:01 PM
God is a strict constructionist–at least in the OT.
dedalus on June 8, 2009 at 4:01 PM
Huckabee made a classic mistake (Pat Robertson does this all the time). He assumes he knows what God did, and why. That’s no more accurate than whoever said that we got attacked on 9/11 because God was punishing us. (Jerry Falwell? I forget)
Daggett on June 8, 2009 at 4:02 PM
Allahpundit on June 8, 2009 at 3:55 PM
Not always. I’m an evangelical who doesn’t agree with Huck on several issues, BTW. I actually consider him pretty much of a lightweight on the weightier theological issues- he often resorts to simple platitudes rather than struggling with complex issues of God, human experience and government. I simply think there’s a difference between Prop 8 on the ballots and what happens in state capitols. IMO, it’s an easier sale judicially or legislatively than at the ballot box. Also, some of the polls (e.g., NH apparently cited a poll that 55% were in favor) are worthless when it comes to predicting what people will actually choose.
cs89 on June 8, 2009 at 4:02 PM
I realy don,t care much what Newt as to say about anything anymore.He went of the deep end over a year ago.He try to be all things to everbody.like saying the era of Regan is over,his attacks on Rush and other true Consev.His embrace of Global warming and parts of Obama health care pro.He is yesterdays news and if he does not stop all this Regan & Consev. bashing.He will be left on the trash heap of yesterday.
thmcbb on June 8, 2009 at 4:03 PM
let him have his sermon.
emailnuevo on June 8, 2009 at 3:54 PM
so long as it’s not from the Oval Office.
maverick muse on June 8, 2009 at 4:04 PM
I’m guessing he’ll skip right over #7.
SnarkVader on June 8, 2009 at 4:05 PM
Allah, Christians pray for His will to be done, not ours. There’s not a single rogue molecule in the universe, so for whatever reason He allowed Prop 8 to pass in California, while New Hampshire voted for gay marriage.
God is patient with sinners, but the Bible talks of God giving people over to their reprobate minds (see Romans 1). In essence, after a period of forbearance God says “fine, have it your way.” We’ve suppressed His truth for so long, He seems to be giving us exactly what we’ve longed for, a country with no God and no morality. We’ll rue the day!
God is sovereign, but He allows evil for His purposes. We’re not allowed in the Holy councils and we view events through fallen and fallible minds, so we can’t always understand why things happen. What is going on in this country is almost too much for this God-fearing man to stand, but as a believer I rest in the knowledge that He’s still firmly in control and in the end it will enhance His glory.
flyfisher on June 8, 2009 at 4:05 PM
Not exactly, though some Christians would agree. Others would say something much different and more ‘nuanced’ on that subject.
the Koran and Islamic Theocracies are the total 180 from true Christian Theocracy(think Puritians, not Rome here…its pretty libertarian with a moral foundation).
the Puritian view(biblical) is that Jesus is the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords”, he is the Creator who gives Rights(see Declaration of Indpendence) and the Civil Governments role is to protect those basic rights. Not grant or take away as the King or some other Ruler see’s fit.
Secular Humanism is no different than Islamic Theocracy in this regard, or the Old Catholic Church of Christendom. All place a Human in between Man and God, with their materialist philosophy.
jp on June 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM
And they’re off…Lizard Chaser leading Sky Gazer by a nose as they pass through the first furlong.
Bishop on June 8, 2009 at 4:09 PM
Well I think its safe to say that California was a shock to the left when Latinos and African Americans showed their beliefs with their vote.
If I’m not mistaken, the people of this country are unbeaten at the ballot box when voting against gay marriage. I mean heck, even the Democratic Governor of NH is against gay marriage. Someone voted him into office on those policies.
broker1 on June 8, 2009 at 4:09 PM
If it weren’t for the Catholics there would be few Christians today.
Secular humanists, like many of the founders, hold reason in a higher regard than Islamic fundamentalists.
dedalus on June 8, 2009 at 4:10 PM
Saw the Gingrich video…what event was this? Would like to see the whole speech…
CP on June 8, 2009 at 4:10 PM
I think thats a non-sequitor. Do we mock a family of faith when they say prayer saved their son from cancer? Even though millions more die from the disease even after prayer?
How far and long are we going to go in this day and age of “tolerance” in order to show how “illogical” religion is?
broker1 on June 8, 2009 at 4:13 PM
flyfisher on June 8, 2009 at 4:05 PM
Amen! Not my will but THY will be done. We all too often pray for things/events that we want (or “feel” would be “right”) without regard as to where the prayer request lines up with the scriptures. God’s will is perfect, ours is not. What we see going on around us is due to the sinfulness of man, coming to fruition. Why is anyone surprised?
catlady on June 8, 2009 at 4:13 PM
John Paul II wrote extensively and worked ceaselessly to awaken the hearts of people to sense our better natures, to elevate our awareness to receive the spirit of peace, truth and love with God’s blessings.
Matthew 19:24
Mark 10:25
Luke 18:25
maverick muse on June 8, 2009 at 4:14 PM
ha ha so funny
Dave Rywall on June 8, 2009 at 4:15 PM
That one point is addressed in Walter Russell Meads book, “God and Gold” see review here:
http://dlbthoughts.com/Articles.aspx?IDCol=221
Nail on head, and a must read book.
jp on June 8, 2009 at 4:16 PM
Two men say they’re Jesus, one of them must be wrong.
Bishop on June 8, 2009 at 4:16 PM
I meant that to reply to the above assertion
jp on June 8, 2009 at 4:17 PM
He just pandering to the Christian paranoia that they gin up in church. It’s all part the End Times snake oil that is the stock-in-trade of Fundamentalism. In a country of with and overwhelming Christian majority and a church on every other corner “surrounded” seems a bit of a stretch. After all if they are “surrounded” then by whom? The numbers just aren’t there. And who is consuming all this “Paganism”? This kind of Manichean approach to politics is, to me, not much removed from the Lefts. Us “Good”. Them “Evil”. By definition. Yeesh.
ronsfi on June 8, 2009 at 4:17 PM
It’s interesting to learn how Allahpundit, by the act of defending himself against Newt’s anti-pagan bias, is exhibiting anti-Christian bias. Can you provide a specific example?
FloatingRock on June 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM
God can’t change the mind of elected officials? So much for all powerful.
lorien1973 on June 8, 2009 at 4:19 PM
Newt converted to catholicism recently. Does he really have room to talk? They stole most of their beliefs from pagan religions.
TTheoLogan on June 8, 2009 at 4:20 PM
Obama: “There are those who say Yankees cannot be Christians. And there are those who say Jesus was a Yankee. But in my infinite reasonableness and wisdom, I say you can be both a Christian and a Yankee, or you can be a Yankee of any or no faith. Vote Obama in 2012.”
cackcon on June 8, 2009 at 4:21 PM
He also called on mary to save him when he was shot in the assassination attempt.
TTheoLogan on June 8, 2009 at 4:21 PM
And that’s different from even when these commandments were given/written how?
Actually that would be Moses and I believe I pointed out earlier that academia believes the commandments were “borrowed” from other civilizations that weren’t necessarily monotheistic either…
7 of the commandments are crucial to maintaining a social structure. The other 3 relate to Honoring/Worshipping God and I believe that to be crucial to maintaining control of the society by the government (in a secular way) lest the government have no authority at all.
dedalus on June 8, 2009 at 4:00 PM
Skywise on June 8, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Hey, if the being has to tell he is god – then he probably is not.
It should show.
A Frenchman once asked how could one get the attention of the peasants. Someone replied, “Trying being crucified and rising on the third day. The first part is much easier than the second part.”
So, go with the Jesus who actually is God.
Larry Farr on June 8, 2009 at 4:23 PM
the Catholic Church of the Reformation era was corrupt and evil, period.
to the point though, again I’ll quote the opening passages of “God and Gold” on this one, and connect it to Reagan’s “Evil Empire” speech and Genesis:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/godandgold.htm
jp on June 8, 2009 at 4:23 PM
Actually He can, but only if it is His will do to so.
Personally, I think assertions about prayer forget that tidbit a lot – we are praying for His will. In that we must be praying that we will accept whatever that will happens to be. “Thy will be done, O Lord – not mine.”
Larry Farr on June 8, 2009 at 4:25 PM
We should be so lucky as to be surrounded by mere pagans!
We’re surrounded by loony leftist pagans!
Lonetown on June 8, 2009 at 4:26 PM
breathtaking stupidity…no surprise considering the source…
yeah that ’snake oil’ about Israel becoming a nation again and Iran and Russia attacking it…yeah its all a fantasy…right…
right4life on June 8, 2009 at 4:28 PM
I wrote him about this insult. No answer yet.
I am a pagan. It does not mean I have no freaking morals. It does not mean I partake in hedonism. It does not mean I’m godless.
It means Newt is an ass. Huckabee too, if that’s what he believes as well. My support for the two of them went form 100 to 0 in one reading.
Spiritk9 on June 8, 2009 at 4:28 PM
There’s plenty about what Newt & Huck say here that makes me squirm a bit; but allow me to just respond to your concern — a misconception (or misrepresentation) that is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
You have to interpret statements in the language in which they are spoken, and the above was spoken to a Christian evangelical audience. The word “convert” has a specific meaning to we evangelicals, and to quote my hero Indego Montoya, “I do not think it means what you think it means.” To the degree that people “convert” others to Christianity, it doesn’t imply any sort of force. Our belief is that God, through His Spirit, persuades people to accept the Gospel we proclaim. If we’re wrong — i.e. if there is no God, or if His nature is other than what we believe — then you have nothing to worry about with regard to God’s persuasion. If we’re right, you still have the right (aka “free will”) to reject God’s entreaties — though why you’d want to is a mystery to me.
Please attempt, for a moment, to see the world from the P.O.V of an evangelical. You see a person who you believe is headed for eteranal suffering, but can be spared that suffering. What kind of callous S.O.B.s would we have to be to NOT speak up, and to NOT hope to see all Americans — indeed all people everywhere — “converted”?
Non-believers frequently speak as though we’re trying to force people to do something against their wills. But “converting” people to Christ is no more of a violent or intimidating aspiration than “converting” them to conservatism. It is merely presenting the choice.
RegularJoe on June 8, 2009 at 4:33 PM
Well,
I am a Pagan, and I take umbrage with Newt’s comments, because a very large portion of the Pagans I know are very staunch conservatives.
This bothers me though:
There is no “Pagan religion”. Pagan is a name ginned up by the Christian church to denote anyone NOT a Christian. Anyone who recognizes more than one Diety, etc. There is no such thing as a “Pagan Religion”.
respects,
AW1 Tim on June 8, 2009 at 4:34 PM
There is no substance to the argument that if there is a God, we can have everything we want on demand, or prevent anything “bad” on demand.
So far as Judaism and Christianity began with the books from Moses, and similarly from universal Creation myths, through God’s grace humans have the gift to choose and evolved from innocence into our current existence. Cain slew Able for the very goods meant to gain God’s pleasure. Whatever relationship between God and Man, at best we enjoy his Spirit. Many presume his authority. But according to all records, God has his own Mind. And we, though of God’s imagination, fall far short of reaching that Mind. Some choose to ignore, forget and deny that there is such a thing as truth. All we can do is our best, and that includes protecting virtue, to share what we know without coercion.
John 18
23″If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”
33Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
34″Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”
35″Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”
36Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
37″You are a king, then!” said Pilate.
Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
38″What is truth?” Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him. 39But it is your custom for me to release to you one prisoner at the time of the Passover. Do you want me to release ‘the king of the Jews’?”
maverick muse on June 8, 2009 at 4:34 PM
I’m a citizen of the United States because I was fortunate enough to be born here. I’m fortunate because it does indeed have a Constitution that includes among its many freedoms, the right to worship. It bases these rights on the fact they are endowed (inalienably) by a Creator. I’d rather the Constitution (and thereby the Federal government) not concern itself with Who that Creator is.
As a Christian, I know of only One, and He needs no Federal endorsement.
He is so humble that He even allowed one book of His word to describe events He controlled without once mentioning His name directly.
Larry Farr on June 8, 2009 at 4:36 PM
this really shocked me, Epsicopalian(Anglican) wouldn’t have.
Newt knows well the difference between America and a Creator granting rights and other nations they don’t assert this, yet joins up with the Catholic Church which has a history of standing between God and Man
jp on June 8, 2009 at 4:36 PM
lorien1973 on June 8, 2009 at 4:19 PM
I spelled it out a little more in my 4:02 comment. I think God can do anything, but doesn’t have to do whatever my little brain determines is the right course of action.
Can God change an officials mind? Sure. Barring divine intervention, though, recent U.S. History suggests more same-sex marriage laws will come through the courts or the state legislatures than through popular votes. IMHO.
Or, we could sidetrack into OT discussions about whether God can build a rock to big for him to pick up. Not interested, personally.
cs89 on June 8, 2009 at 4:36 PM
Go Gingrich!
Although I think we’re surrounded by things WORSE than mere paganism…
Dark-Star on June 8, 2009 at 4:37 PM
You’re assuming that he wants to.
baldilocks on June 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM
And as we all know, P.A.G.A.N. = People Against Goodness and Normalcy.
Hmm…so I guess a legislature is a bit out of god’s reach…bummer
Jim on June 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM
You are correct. What I assume Newt meant (being really generous here) is the hedonistic definition of paganism. He didn’t clarify though, which leaves me pissed off.
He insinuates that if you aren’t Christian then you couldn’t possibly be a citizen, since that’s where our god given rights come from, as if no religion outside Judaism, Christianity, or Islam have god(s) or morality?
That can’t be what he meant, but his socks are stuck in his teeth as far as I’m concerned, and he just gave me yet one more reason to never join back up to the GOP.
GOP free, 16+ years now. Doesn’t look like it’s ever going to change.
Spiritk9 on June 8, 2009 at 4:39 PM
I have a couple pagan friends who are rock ribbed republicans and staunchly conservative. So, while I can’t take the pulse of the entire pagan community, the ones I know are not “anti-religion”.
Newt, this is dumb.
rollthedice on June 8, 2009 at 4:39 PM
It was corrupt, some individuals were evil. The “period” ignores much of the work that the Church did to spread Christianity for 1500 years before Luther.
Re: Cromwell, Reagan, et al. Cromwell had to deal with a Church that possessed actual political power that rivaled the state. He, Reagan, and the US founders were opposing authoritarian rule within the political realm. That’s apart from issues of the spiritual realm.
dedalus on June 8, 2009 at 4:41 PM
Your point is noted, but wasn’t the NH issue decided by state legislators rather than directly at the ballot box?
cs89 on June 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM
God can’t change the mind of elected officials? So much for all powerful.
lorien1973 on June 8, 2009 at 4:19 PM
This is true. For all we know, it is according to His will that things go south.
We are the ones who want things to continue fairly close to the way we like them here on Earth.
His desire is become more like Christ – and if that takes Armageddon to get it done (which by the way has been mentioned somewhere…) then it will.
Personally though, I don’t think a politician does right by his fellow Americans talking like this cavalierly. A Christian man (be he politician or not) does not glibly put things out there just to even seem like he is pandering to his audience.
Larry Farr on June 8, 2009 at 4:42 PM
God work for ACORN, Huck?
FloatingRock on June 8, 2009 at 4:43 PM
There is such a thing as the “English Language”.
To wit:
“OH good grief… So Allah, you’re equating yourself with the Monotheistic religion?”
Skywise on June 8, 2009 at 4:44 PM
G
Two words…” Free will ”
I think you’d even find that in the bible someplace.
Spiritk9 on June 8, 2009 at 4:45 PM
Except that you should have made “religion” plural, since there are more than one monotheistic religion. Probably should’ve just used “monotheism”.
Heh.. :)
AW1 Tim on June 8, 2009 at 4:46 PM
But that same argument would prevent him from manipulating the free will of the rest of the electorate as well. That being the case, the only alternative left to him would be vote-fraud.
FloatingRock on June 8, 2009 at 4:47 PM
So when it’s something I like, it’s answered prayers, when it’s something I don’t like, it’s free will. Got it.
Jim on June 8, 2009 at 4:47 PM
Fixed that for you. The same catholic church has been taking tons of beliefs from paganism and other religions, including Islam, since its inception.
TTheoLogan on June 8, 2009 at 4:48 PM
What we have here is an Obama-enabler.
Guilty as charged.
TTheoLogan on June 8, 2009 at 4:48 PM
When asked which side he considered God to favour, Napoleon answered that “God favours the side with the strongest battalions”.
I think he was on to something…..
AW1 Tim on June 8, 2009 at 4:50 PM
“I am a citizen of the United States because only in the United States does citizenship start with our Creator.”
You’re imposing that insinuation. Every religion includes a creator; there’s nothing unique to Christianity for a non-Christian to take offense. Newt referenced Creator, not Christian God. Just as you want your preferences observed, allow Newt his interpretation of life.
To simply take that single sentence of Newt’s, it seems he chooses to be a US citizen (rather than move or be born elsewhere) because everyone created here enjoys the fullest bounties anywhere in the world. Like Thanksgiving, gratitude for what is good helps the experience to feel even better than to take things for granted.
maverick muse on June 8, 2009 at 4:50 PM
I don’t think Buddhism has a creator, and there are probably religions that have more than one creator.
FloatingRock on June 8, 2009 at 4:53 PM
Hahaha, no. That was in response to another comment about God controlling people.
But I suppose you couldn’t prove that if you prayed for something and got it that it wasn’t Gods work any more than you could say God decided you didn’t need it if you didn’t get it after praying your eyes out for it.
None of that is within my belief system anyway.
Spiritk9 on June 8, 2009 at 4:53 PM
Umm… the Catholic Church was around for a few centuries BEFORE Islam was developed. All of Christianity has roots in other religions. The whole death & resurrection bit has been around for quite awhile before it was added to Jesus’ story. The Cult of Mithras, several centuries old when Jesus was born, has it’s story almost word for word that of the story of Jesus. just swap the names and you’d be hard pressed to tell which storyline was whose…..
Just sayin… :)
AW1 Tim on June 8, 2009 at 4:55 PM
See the problem with GOP’ers? They assume like crazy. I voted for McCain (but not because I like his RINO-ness). I despise Obama, I’m certainly not his enabler. I just want the GOP to get conservative again and stop being bigots.
Not so much to ask is it?
Spiritk9 on June 8, 2009 at 4:55 PM
I think you’re right. But why would any speaker address a different audience than the one in the same room? Clarification? Write him and get one. Heck, there’s one thing Newt does just swell, changing in order to please the public with whatever he thinks will get him more votes.
maverick muse on June 8, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Yup. I imposed that insinuation because of the context of the whole attack on Pagans. He pressed a button, that’s all. I understand the rest of it, I simply don’t appreciate his whole tone here.
Spiritk9 on June 8, 2009 at 4:58 PM
I think he was being snarky. Actually, God favoured Israel plenty of times – and they were outnumbered. However, since they had God on their side, they indeed have the strongest “battalion” – The Lion of Judah.
So, you may be right, he might have been on to something….
Larry Farr on June 8, 2009 at 4:58 PM
I did write him for clarification yesterday, haven’t got an answer yet. I don’t expect one either really.
Spiritk9 on June 8, 2009 at 4:59 PM
I’m not a GOP’er. Who is assuming here?
Yeah, obviously the main problem with the republican party is that they are bigots *yawn*
TTheoLogan on June 8, 2009 at 5:01 PM
We’d probalby split hairs and call that idolatry, actually. The distinction would be that a pagan would be someone who does not acknowledge the God of Creation, or acknowledges some other god or none; while Christians profess to believe in and serve only the One True God, we are often made aware of ways that we have not yet brought our lives completely under His will–like the things you listed. And we generally refer to such things as idolatry.
TexasDan on June 8, 2009 at 5:03 PM
The first 3 commandments have little to do with a democracy.
4. (honor parents) – A good one but much of it is a product of human nature.
5. (murder) – Essential, though not unique to Judeo-Christianity.
6. (adultery) – Of varying importance to societal order.
7. (steal) – Same as #5.
8. (lying) – Same as #5.
9. (Covet wife) – Similar to #6.
10. (Covet goods) – Some coveting is essential to a consumer economy. As long as #6 is followed. Not a big problem.
Christ’s message helped lay the groundwork for democracy by asserting the value of every individual, but it took centuries before governments could structure themselves in ways that identified and guaranteed rights.
dedalus on June 8, 2009 at 5:03 PM
The quote from Napoleon is simply illustrative. It’s like the similar one I enjoy: “The race is not always to the swift, nor the contest to the strong, but that’s the way to bet”.
I personally do not believe that the Gods intercede in conflicts. Those are the affairs of men, and the conflict is decided upon the strengths (moral and physical) of one side over the other. In Israel and the United States’ cases, I believe that it is the superior teachings, a combination of our spiritual, moral, ethical traits which have helped us to overcome, to persevere, especially in times when, by rights, we ought to have lost. Our own civilization, the standards we set, the responsibilities we shoulder, the courage born of our convictions, sets us apart from other nations.
It is when we lose sight of who we are, what we are, that we begin to falter. The Gods are our strength, and they will, upon occasion, intercede for this or that person. But wars are our affairs, and to infer that any God is “on our side” strikes me as more than pretentious, almost blasphemous.
Respects,
Respects,
AW1 Tim on June 8, 2009 at 5:06 PM
It’s important to remember that a creator god is not necessarily a personal god. In practice, many Jews and Christians worship more the God of the philosophers than a personal God.
It’s also important to remember that religions are not necessarily monotheist. Some religions believe in more gods and some religions believe in fewer gods.
thuja on June 8, 2009 at 5:09 PM
FloatingRock on June 8, 2009 at 4:53 PM
The Buddha emerged from the Hindi religions wherein each sect you will find an ultimate creator god in many guises. Not all their gods are the creator. Even Buddha in seeking enlightenment experienced the ever present Ohm. As I said, every religion has a creation story, and that need not be in human form or have any similarity to the Father in Heaven to whom Jesus prayed. The description of existence via creator or creation vary just as the cultural ceremonies we still witness throughout the world’s religions are diverse.
Even existentialism strives to answer the question of man’s existence.
maverick muse on June 8, 2009 at 5:11 PM
The Christian right is a very important constituency for the republican party. So what if Newt and Huckabee or whoever is affirming their beliefs. The democrats aren’t ashamed of their constituencies and they pander to them all the time. They won the election.They wooed gays, anti-war zealots, illegal immigrants,Code Pink, Daily Koz and all sorts of people that your average Obama voter might find objectionable. There is paganism all around and many of us, myself included,are a part of it. Evan Thomas thinks Obama is like God. To me that is paganism but if Allahpundit thinks being anti-pagan is going to cost us votes I guess we ought to listen.
evensteven on June 8, 2009 at 5:15 PM
thuja on June 8, 2009 at 5:09 PM
Yes. Every religion is an effort to answer the question of our existence. Given existence, there are all the Myths from throughout the world that tell the story of creation. Everyone has their own version and their own sense of origin.
maverick muse on June 8, 2009 at 5:17 PM
Spiritk9 on June 8, 2009 at 4:59 PM
Let us know if he ever responds.
maverick muse on June 8, 2009 at 5:19 PM
I’m not holding my breath on that one.
Spiritk9 on June 8, 2009 at 5:23 PM
I’ll give a specific example where my vote was lost by pandering too hard to the most backward expressions of Christianity. Rick Santorum took such extreme stances on abortion and homosexuality that I could not vote for him–even I agreed with him on far more issues than I did Bob Casey. As a gay person, it would have been like a Jew voting for Hitler. I also know suburban Republcian matrons who voted against Santorum because they found distasteful his rhetoric on those topics. Comparing homosexuality to beastiality is not a good way to convince people that you have the good judgement desired in a legislator.
thuja on June 8, 2009 at 5:24 PM
He was talking about paganism as an analogy — comparing this time to the time of St. Paul, when Christianity was really surrounded by real pagans.
tommylotto on June 8, 2009 at 5:28 PM
Granted, Chicago does not much resemble Corinth, and it is unlikely that worrying about eating meats sacrificed to idols is a practical concern for modern American Christians when dining with their neighbors. (Though I have encountered this exact thing in Bali…) The parallel still exists, however, in the terms of the spiritual conflict that Christians observe in the world, and the way that each individual knowingly or unknowingly plays a part in that conflict.
TexasDan on June 8, 2009 at 5:43 PM
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