Cap and trade: Where’s the benefit?

posted at 3:35 pm on June 1, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Martin Feldstein breaks down the costs and benefits for Americans in the Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill that just got approved in committee, and finds a lot of the former and none of the latter.   The Harvard economist says that the bill will cost each American household an additional $1600 in energy costs.  What can we expect in return?  Self-esteem, if we ignore the fact that we’re getting taken by China and India:

The Congressional Budget Office recently estimated that the resulting increases in consumer prices needed to achieve a 15 percent CO2 reduction — slightly less than the Waxman-Markey target — would raise the cost of living of a typical household by $1,600 a year. Some expert studies estimate that the cost to households could be substantially higher. The future cost to the typical household would rise significantly as the government reduces the total allowable amount of CO2.

Americans should ask themselves whether this annual tax of $1,600-plus per family is justified by the very small resulting decline in global CO2. Since the U.S. share of global CO2 production is now less than 25 percent (and is projected to decline as China and other developing nations grow), a 15 percent fall in U.S. CO2 output would lower global CO2 output by less than 4 percent. Its impact on global warming would be virtually unnoticeable. The U.S. should wait until there is a global agreement on CO2 that includes China and India before committing to costly reductions in the United States.

The CBO estimates that the sale of the permits for a 15 percent CO2 reduction would raise revenue of about $80 billion a year over the next decade. It is remarkable, then, that the Waxman-Markey bill would give away some 85 percent of the permits over the next 20 years to various businesses instead of selling them at auction. The price of the permits and the burden to households would be the same whether the permits are sold or given away. But by giving them away the government would not collect the revenue that could, at least in principle, be used to offset some of the higher cost to households.

Feldstein’s numbers are less striking than those from the Marshall Institute, which calculated the cost of a cap-and-trade system at $3000 per household three months ago.  Marshall also calculated the impact of cap-and-trade on growth, while Feldstein for the moment focuses only on direct costs.  Feldstein does note that he is sticking with low-end estimates, giving us essentially the best-case scenario as energy producers pass the costs of restrictions onto the consumer.

Those costs, by the way, amount to a regressive tax on energy consumers.  Energy isn’t a luxury item — or at least it isn’t now.  Everyone needs to have heating and power in their homes, and any widespread and significant price increase will most hurt those households with the least amount of disposable income.  Henry Waxman wants the credits his bill gives away for free to result in subsidies for low-income earners, but energy prices are a multiplier in the economy, since the entire distribution chain of goods and services have to include higher costs into their own prices.  A substantial increase of energy prices will mean higher prices on food, clothing, and other essentials that these subsidies cannot address.  It will also fuel inflation, which will further erode the buying power among low-income earners.

And what do we get for all of this sacrifice?  Nothing.  The amount of reduction cap-and-trade will produce is negligible in terms of lowering the Earth’s temperature.  Moreover, it will allow nations like China and India to gain a competitive advantage in the global marketplace.  They will get the investors and businesses, while the US loses jobs overseas.

In short, Waxman-Markey is a disaster for the economy, but Democrats care more about looking good than in maintaining the American standard of living.

Blowback

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The benefit is that cap and trade will bring in a river of new money to the Federal government, while Obama can go around and piously claim that he is only raising taxes on “the rich”. Then, ACORN and others will blame the spectacular hikes in electric rates on the evil power company.

Realist on June 1, 2009 at 3:40 PM

Putting a ‘cap’ on carbon dioxide is not the same thing as reducing the amount emitted.

A ‘permit’ to emit carbon dioxide has to be purchased from someone. Who gets the money?

Skandia Recluse on June 1, 2009 at 3:42 PM

The amount of reduction cap-and-trade will produce is negligible in terms of lowering the Earth’s temperature.

I wouldn’t even give it that much…the increased carbon output from both India and China, as they leave our economy in the dust, will dwarf anything hypothetically saved by this measure.

AUINSC on June 1, 2009 at 3:43 PM

Obama and these plutocrats in the Congress need to go at all costs.

elduende on June 1, 2009 at 3:43 PM

Who gets the money?

Skandia Recluse on June 1, 2009 at 3:42 PM

Algore.

AUINSC on June 1, 2009 at 3:43 PM

Remember all those stories about how cap and trade wasn’t gonna get done this year? Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

LibTired (KO) on June 1, 2009 at 3:44 PM

Facts are stuborn things – Lets ignore the facts to implement Cap and Tax.

EliTheBean on June 1, 2009 at 3:44 PM

And that’s why I purchased a pellet stove for next winter. Won’t help with the energy bill, but at least I won’t have to purchase as much oil.

Slublog on June 1, 2009 at 3:44 PM

Its another front on Ogabe’s King George’s war on prosperity. Once there is a permanant upper class and a permanent lower class with little in-between the statist has won. This ‘environmental’ policy will destroy businesses, stifle productivity, stifle opportunity, and stifle the individualistic spirit of the average citizen to do better for himself and his family.

Once we are all wardens of the state for all our wants and needs…well thats when things get really interesting, right?

how much devaluation of the dollar?
how much inflation?
how much generational debt?
how much unemployment?
how much nanny-state intrusion into every damn aspect of your life?
how much destruction of the individuals ability to pursue excellence and enjoy his God given freedom?
how much pain?

daesleeper on June 1, 2009 at 3:45 PM

but energy prices are a multiplier in the economy, since the entire distribution chain of goods and services have to include higher costs into their own prices. A substantial increase of energy prices will mean higher prices on food, clothing, and other essentials that these subsidies cannot address.

This is not a tax on “energy”. It’s a tax on everything.

LibTired (KO) on June 1, 2009 at 3:46 PM

Everyone needs to have heating and power in their homes

Trust me. Living in Texas, an air conditioner is almost a must. Especially when the humidity is high. If not for the benefits, of keeping a tad cooler than the 98 to over 100 temps in the summer time, and the 99% humidity. The humidity alone, would cause massive mold problems in homes thru out. This cap, and trade is insane, and does nothing but make certain people money. That is ALL this is about. If Gore were truly concerned about global warming, he wouldn’t keep contributing to the so called problem.

capejasmine on June 1, 2009 at 3:49 PM

This is not a tax on “energy”. It’s a tax on everything.

LibTired (KO) on June 1, 2009 at 3:46 PM

Let’s not forget the proposed 10% VAT as well which will be a tax on everything.

daesleeper on June 1, 2009 at 3:49 PM

This is the inevitable horror when junk science meets politics. But it is disturbing, since over 32,000 American scientists alone have felt so strongly that CO2 is not causing any warming, that they have signed a petition.

I guess nobody bothered to ask 32,000 US scientists what they thought of junk science. I guess they were dismissed as right-wing operatives working for the oil companies.

keep the change on June 1, 2009 at 3:49 PM

Who gets the money?

Skandia Recluse on June 1, 2009 at 3:42 PM

Third world countries. The libs have taken welfare to the global level.

cntrlfrk on June 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM

Ed, please don’t argue from the unproven assumption that lowering carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will lower “Earth’s temperature”. There is no causal evidence to show that carbon dioxide drives surface temperatures. This is a shell game, and we’re the marks!

The July 4 Tea Parties better be HUGE! I can’t believe the bizarro world I find myself in. MAKE IT STOP!!

common sensineer on June 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM

I know it’s only been six months, but when are the American people going to wake up?

toliver on June 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM

$1600 a year??

I would gladly pay that until 2010 when the Republicans could show the American public that they are getting screwed by the democrats. And I have stated this in blogs using as much electricity as I can. China & India are licking their chops. They would love nothing better than the democrats helping them destroy American industry. Obama cannot rule the world and by trying to rule America it will guarantee a democratic butt-kicking come 2010.

izoneguy on June 1, 2009 at 3:51 PM

In short, Waxman-Markey is a disaster for the economy, but Democrats care more about looking good than in maintaining the American standard of living.

They don’t care. Probably, somewhere in this bill, it exempts them, from having to participate in this. Their offices, homes, cars, will show no signs of price hikes. They’ll just do cartwheels, and hollar Cha CHING as the money starts rolling in!

capejasmine on June 1, 2009 at 3:51 PM

I guess now we know what the cost of the “moral high ground” is. Ten years from now when this country is in the crapper we’ll hear a bunch of the idiots say – whoops we shouldn’t have done that.

dpierson on June 1, 2009 at 3:52 PM

Cap and trade: Where’s the benefit?

The benefit goes to Obamas socialist buddies in Europe. If you remember he did extensive campaigning in Europe. Gotta wonder what he promised those people for all their contributions.

Tommy_G on June 1, 2009 at 3:52 PM

Third world countries. The libs have taken welfare to the global level.

cntrlfrk on June 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM

Considering Obama cut off funding to Africa, for aids, and malaria treatments….I have no doubts, this money won’t reach third world countries. Not when it looks so nice lining democratic pockets.

Watch for the housing market to rise a bit, as all of them will probably be shopping for a nice 2nd, 3rd, or 4th home.

capejasmine on June 1, 2009 at 3:53 PM

The cynic realist might say it’s not about saving the planet, but about another “revenue source”.

rockhead on June 1, 2009 at 3:54 PM

The “benefit” is to those who’ll make money rebuilding the country after this scam is eventually exposed.

n0doz on June 1, 2009 at 3:54 PM

The benefit is that cap and trade will bring in a river of new money to the Federal government, while Obama can go around and piously claim that he is only raising taxes on “the rich”. Then, ACORN and others will blame the spectacular hikes in electric rates on the evil power company.

Realist on June 1, 2009 at 3:40 PM

I’m sure they’d like to try just that but if the American people can’t see past that then……

Yakko77 on June 1, 2009 at 3:54 PM

The benefit is to the government. It is all about the money, and when I say all, I mean it. Global warming crap has been spread around to soften up the taxpayers to fork over more money. Amnesty crap is being spread for the same reason. The government needs to take over 60% of your money in order to fulfill the promises they made on social security, welfare, medicare, medicaid, etc. The only way to do that is to either justify the tax, or separate the funding from the widely recognized tax structure. If your electric bill doubles so that one half can be funneled to the feds via the electicity providers, the feds don’t take the blame. If amnesty brings in 20 million new payers of FICA and unemployment insurance, other vote buying government programs can continue.

Everything is about the money.

Vashta.Nerada on June 1, 2009 at 3:54 PM

The Mental midgets in congress should learn math. Reducing 100% of 25% will only reduce CO2 25%. They did this with the epa and auto emissions here in OH, and were shocked, shocked mind you that the targeted gasses only dropped 1%. They were to dense to notice that automotive emissions were only 1% of the total. Why does history always repeat itself when progressive’s are involved? /retorical

stephana on June 1, 2009 at 3:58 PM

The benefit is that cap and trade will bring in a river of new money to the Federal government, while Obama can go around and piously claim that he is only raising taxes on “the rich”.

Realist on June 1, 2009 at 3:40 PM

You nailed it. This is all about federal money. It has nothing to do with pollution or global whatever-it-is-this-week.

Daggett on June 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM

Americans should ask themselves whether this annual tax of $1,600-plus per family is justified by the very small resulting decline in global CO2. Since the U.S. share of global CO2 production is now less than 25 percent

Twenty five percent of what? Man made Gullible Gasses are less than 3% of the total. Big Whoop!!

N4646W on June 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM

It has to be realized that the purpose of Crap&Trade is very simple: To cripple American industry so as to bankrupt it and force it to come to the federal government for a rescue, thereby bringing all resources under government control.

The Precedent wasn’t kidding when he gave that radio interview and giggled about how he was going to bankrupt the coal industry. He was serious and coal was just an example.

progressoverpeace on June 1, 2009 at 4:00 PM

I truly hate my Government right now. If the Conservatives don’t stand against this then we need to move in-mass to a Third party that embraces true Conservatism!

saltydogg14 on June 1, 2009 at 4:01 PM

The cynic realist might say it’s not about saving the planet, but about another “revenue source”.

rockhead on June 1, 2009 at 3:54 PM

Except it wont generate revenue as the America people wont have the revenue to tax at this rate. We’ll all be broke no happer how responsible we spend, borrow and consume. Not that Obama cares. Just like during the debates when the moderator pointed out that lowering taxes generated more tax revenue Obama just dismissed it as if it weren’t a fact at all and poorly explained in all his eloquence at how and why he’s going to do the exact opposite.

Eloquence is the essential thing in a speech, not information. – Mark Twain

Yakko77 on June 1, 2009 at 4:01 PM

happer

matter

Yakko77 on June 1, 2009 at 4:02 PM

They wont be happy until we are all shivering/ baking while we eat healthy cardboard live in boxes drive little boxes with electric fans for motors. Damn we need a leader.

faol on June 1, 2009 at 4:02 PM

I truly hate my Government right now. If the Conservatives don’t stand against this then we need to move in-mass to a Third party that embraces true Conservatism respects the constitution and limits the damn government!

saltydogg14 on June 1, 2009 at 4:01 PM

moderately amended for you.

daesleeper on June 1, 2009 at 4:03 PM

A ‘permit’ to emit carbon dioxide has to be purchased from someone. Who gets the money?

Skandia Recluse on June 1, 2009 at 3:42 PM

The goveernment.

MarkTheGreat on June 1, 2009 at 4:04 PM

Its impact on global warming would be virtually unnoticeable.

If 100% of carbon emissions were eliminated there would still be no impact on global temperature. Don’t allow the leftists the luxury of no one questioning their science fiction.

It is all about power, pure and simple.

Wine_N_Dine on June 1, 2009 at 4:04 PM

At least they are “spreading the pain” as they “spread the wealth”.

ctmom on June 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM

Manmade climate change is a RELIGION.

Sue for the separation of church and state.

John the Libertarian on June 1, 2009 at 4:07 PM

But we’re saving the polar bears!

/sarc

VibrioCocci on June 1, 2009 at 4:09 PM

This is not a tax on “energy”. It’s a tax on everything.

LibTired (KO) on June 1, 2009 at 3:46 PM

Yep: The economy runs on energy. Throttle the energy and you throttle the economy.

There’s a very strong negative correlation between energy cost and economic activity: Higher energy cost = smaller economy.

ZenDraken on June 1, 2009 at 4:20 PM

I wonder if Obama supporters will be dancing in the streets, when their first electric bill, under this crap, and charade comes due?

capejasmine on June 1, 2009 at 4:20 PM

You gotta love the ruling class, making laws that will never affect their way of living. Insurance and benefits for life and secret service protection to boot. I’m soooo looking forward to the day we run them out on the ends of our pitchforks!

TrickyDick on June 1, 2009 at 4:21 PM

This is a fundraiser. The sheeple can buy carbon indulgences. To support the regime is number one priority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPCC_Fourth_Assessment_Report

IPCC posts ideas that just aren’t true. They treat guesses for 2050 as if they are already facts.

There was freeze warning for utica New York yesterday. Joseph romm is one of their leading flock fleecers.

seven on June 1, 2009 at 4:21 PM

“And what do we get for all of this sacrifice? Nothing.”

and what do our government overseer get?

More power to control us and destroy capitalism, their worst enemy.

notagool on June 1, 2009 at 4:24 PM

I guess that it’s time to burn up the wires to our representatives and senators. Waxman-Markey absolutely must be stopped in its tracks. No time would be a good time for this extortionary and economically destructive bill. The case against it is even stronger with our economy going down the tubes.

Has anyone done an investigation of who in Congress might be financially benefitting from this absurd green nonsense?

We are in a cooling period. Sunspot activity is at its lowest ebb. It is more judicious to explore ways of adapting to climate gluctuations than it is to even dream about affecting it.

onlineanalyst on June 1, 2009 at 4:24 PM

Joseph romm is running scared. China adds every 3 days as much coal genrated into electricity capacity as the USD burns in a year. China really doesn’t care except that we are afraid and sending manufacturing to them.

seven on June 1, 2009 at 4:24 PM

And what do we get for all of this sacrifice? Nothing.

We get richer scamers like Al Gore.

burt on June 1, 2009 at 4:26 PM

This is nothing more than another “sin” tax.

AnninCA on June 1, 2009 at 4:36 PM

Can someone tell me what the temperature of the world is supposed to be?

hip shot on June 1, 2009 at 4:38 PM

Don’t worry about this tax, by the time all our fears are realized, we’re all going to be stark raving mad and won’t care if we have electricity or heat because we’ll all be roaming the streets dragging a blanket behind ourselves.

moonsbreath on June 1, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Democrats: “Freeing” America, one hut and bicycle at a time

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on June 1, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Democrats are all about style. Substance is for the other guy. Just ask Barry.

GarandFan on June 1, 2009 at 4:43 PM

Any congress critter that votes for a crap and tax scheme should be voted out of office in 2010 (recalled in the case of newer senators) and sent off for a working apprenticeship in a remote region of China.

Annar on June 1, 2009 at 4:47 PM

Every time this glowbull warming crud comes up I have to point out

1. The Sahara was green and lush about 10k years ago
2. The great lakes didn’t exist, they were under a freaking 2 mile thick ice cap just 5k years ago
3. You could get to the Pocono mountains about 15k years ago… IF you drilled straight down through 2 miles of freaking ice.

All of those things changed WELL before the industrial age.

This whole thing is about spreading Marxism and it’s equal distribution of misery.

The idiots who voted for jug ears heard him say he will bankrupt the coal industry.

Meanwhile a lot of people will be getting rich on this crap while contributing exactly zero to the GDP. Oh, and the stuff we can’t produce will be produced wiht more pollution in india and china as another poster mentioned.

PLEASE GOD, let this freaking twighlight zone end.

bullseye on June 1, 2009 at 4:54 PM

Save the Earth.
What a joke.

Liberals are only using this as a tool to get people behind their tax and spend schemes.They could care less about the environment.
It shows in their limousine lifestyles and rejection of the massive amount of science that refutes the global warming scare mongering from the eco-fundamentalist.

This cap-and-trade scam has about as much credibility as the “green jobs” con game:

The mirage of “green jobs”

posted at 2:54 pm on March 27, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/03/27/the-mirage-of-green-jobs/

Barack Obama promised that his cap-and-trade energy policies would fund an explosion of “green jobs” as government pushes for mass-production-capable alternative energy sources. Spain used to think the same thing, but Bloomberg reports that the explosion turned into an implosion (via Barcepundit):

Subsidizing renewable energy in the U.S. may destroy two jobs for every one created if Spain’s experience with windmills and solar farms is any guide.

For every new position that depends on energy price supports, at least 2.2 jobs in other industries will disappear, according to a study from King Juan Carlos University in Madrid.


Green Jobs Myths

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1358423


Myth: Everyone understands what a green job is.

Reality: No standard definition of a green job exists.


Myth: Creating green jobs will boost productive employment.

Reality: Green jobs estimates include huge numbers of clerical, bureaucratic, and administrative positions that do not produce goods and services for consumption.

Myth: Green jobs forecasts are reliable.

Reality: The green jobs studies made estimates using poor economic models based on dubious assumptions.

Myth: Green jobs promote employment growth.

Reality: By promoting more jobs instead of more productivity, the green jobs described in the literature encourage low-paying jobs in less desirable conditions. Economic growth cannot be ordered by Congress or by the United Nations. Government interference – such as restricting successful technologies in favor of speculative technologies favored by special interests – will generate stagnation.

Kind of like the same bogus logic used for the “jobs created/jobs saved” line being pushed by the administration.

It’s not like the democrats don’t know that cap-and-trade is nothing but a massive tax increase,they admit it:


Dem Congressman Admits: “Cap & Trade Is a Great Big Tax”
(Video)
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/04/dem-congressman-admits-cap-trade-is.html

Uh-Oh… Democratic Congressman John Dingell admitted today at a Congressional hearing on global warming that cap and trade is a tax– a Great Big tax!

Yet there is still an incredible amount of idiots out there that still believe that it’s all about saving polar bears and hugging trees.

Baxter Greene on June 1, 2009 at 4:56 PM

And that’s why I purchased a pellet stove for next winter. Won’t help with the energy bill, but at least I won’t have to purchase as much oil.

Slublog on June 1, 2009 at 3:44 PM

Besides the coal stove i already own i just purchased two forced air coal furnaces.One is four years old for 600.00 and the other is two years old for 800.00 they are identical units which put out 170,000 btu each.I chuckle when the previous owners tell me they did’nt like loading the coal hopper every few days and emptying the ash bin.Last winter my heating bill in NY cost me 680.00 at 210.00 per ton,i just had 25 ton delivered as i paid a friend to pick it up at the mine for 85.00 per ton.For anyone not to lazy and has coal redally available it is by far the cheapest way to go.Slublog just to let you know pellets more than doubled last year due to the fact of slow economy,ie low demand for wood products slow wood mills=no cheap saw dust to mfg. now would be a good time to start gathering pellets for next winter.

heshtesh on June 1, 2009 at 4:58 PM

Can someone tell me what the temperature of the world is supposed to be?

hip shot on June 1, 2009 at 4:38 PM

Can someone tell me how we know what it is?

LibTired (KO) on June 1, 2009 at 4:59 PM

In short, Waxman-Markey is a disaster for the economy, but Democrats care more about looking good than in maintaining the American standard of living.

They also care a lot about money and power.
Just look at these two major beneficiaries of this disastrous legislation:


U.N. ‘Climate Change’ Plan Would Likely Shift Trillions to Form New World Economy

Friday , March 27, 2009
By George Russell

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,510937,00.htmlget_a(300,250,”frame1″);

A United Nations document on “climate change” that will be distributed to a major environmental conclave next week envisions a huge reordering of the world economy, likely involving trillions of dollars in wealth transfer, millions of job losses and gains, new taxes, industrial relocations, new tariffs and subsidies, and complicated payments for greenhouse gas abatement schemes and carbon taxes — all under the supervision of the world body.

Nobody loves the useless UN and what it stands for more than liberals.They would love nothing more than to dissolve the US and push their “internationalist” agenda in becoming a major player in a “world body”.

They also get major payback here at home from Obama’s No. 1
network and supporter NBC/MSNBC owned by GE:

Obama’s hidden bailout of General Electric

By: Timothy P. Carney
Examiner Columnist

Find this article at:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Obamas-hidden-bailout-of-General-Electric_03_04-40686707.html

Labeled “climate revenues” and totaling $646 billion over eight years, this line item in Obama’s budget has inspired confidence in GE Chief Executive Officer Jeff Immelt. As Immelt put it in a letter this week, he believes that the Obama administration will be a profitable “financier” and “key partner.”

On page 115 of Obama’s fiscal 2010 budget is Table S-2, titled “Effect of Budget Proposals on Projected Deficits.” The chart forecasts the costs of Obama’s spending proposals and the added revenue of his proposed tax increases. It also forecasts, beginning in 2012, billions of dollars a year in “climate revenues.” This budget line, which has struck fear into some lawmakers from coal-dependent states, could spell salvation for GE in these times of uncertainty.

No conflict of interest here at all from the Haliburton,Big oil conspiratorial idiots that make up the democratic party.

Just follow the money.

Baxter Greene on June 1, 2009 at 5:10 PM

And that’s why I purchased a pellet stove for next winter. Won’t help with the energy bill, but at least I won’t have to purchase as much oil.

Slublog on June 1, 2009 at 3:44 PM

Pellet stoves are a good buy. Granted, you’re burning wood, but it’s cleaner burning. More efficient.

That and they’re effective. I was staying at a home in Idaho where they had one of those. It was pretty good for heating considering how much fuel it used.

Then again, in Idaho, there are many people with wood burning stoves and fireplaces… heck… even in Boise the state capitol.

Chaz706 on June 1, 2009 at 5:10 PM

Don’t worry about this tax, by the time all our fears are realized, we’re all going to be stark raving mad and won’t care if we have electricity or heat because we’ll all be roaming the streets dragging a blanket behind ourselves.

moonsbreath on June 1, 2009 at 4:42 PM

YAY!

I’m not the only one who feels like he’s taking crazy pills!

Chaz706 on June 1, 2009 at 5:17 PM

It never ceases to amaze me when otherwise intelligent people don’t seem to grasp that Global Warming in general and Cap & Trade specifically have absolutely nothing to do with reducing C02 or the temperature of the planet.

Cap & Trade in the U.S. does nothing to reduce global carbon emissions and has no impact on the global climate. What it will do is further weaken the U.S. economy and hamper future growth.

In other words it will do what it is designed to do. Handicap the U.S. economy and help pave the way for global socialism.

If this were at all about saving the world, the focus would be on China and India, not the U.S. But the objective of the environmental socialists is to put the brakes on the U.S. while allowing China, India and others to continue to increase the amount of carbon they emit. The problem they are trying to fix is that the industrialized West in general and the U.S. in particular have gotten too far ahead. That cannot be tolerated. All must be equal. Even if only equal in misery.

Stephen Macklin on June 1, 2009 at 5:19 PM

Can someone please explain this to me….. If only one country on Earth implements cap and tax, how the earth’s temperature will decline (if one is to believe in global warming/climate change/BS)? Wouldn’t every person and country on the planet have to agree to paint their roof white, re-pave every road with a white substance, etc.?

txag92 on June 1, 2009 at 5:21 PM

From the Global Warming Petition Project report:

Hydrocarbons are essential sources of energy to sustain and extend prosperity. This is especially true of the developing nations, where available capital and technology are insufficient to meet rapidly increasing energy needs without extensive use of hydrocarbon fuels. If, through misunderstanding of the underlying science and through misguided public fear and hysteria, mankind significantly rations and restricts the use of hydrocarbons, the worldwide increase in prosperity will stop. The result would be vast human suffering and the loss of hundreds of millions of human lives. Moreover, the prosperity of those in the developed countries would be greatly reduced.

http://www.petitionproject.org/gw_article/GWReview_OISM150.pdf

txag92 on June 1, 2009 at 5:38 PM

The amount of reduction cap-and-trade will produce is negligible in terms of lowering the Earth’s temperature

.

Pathetic. An article by a conservative on AGW that doesn’t point out the fact the earth has been markedly cooling for the last two years and hasn’t warmed in over a decade.

Good grief.

Basilsbest on June 1, 2009 at 6:26 PM

And what do we get for all of this sacrifice? Nothing. The amount of reduction cap-and-trade will produce is negligible in terms of lowering the Earth’s temperature. Moreover, it will allow nations like China and India to gain a competitive advantage in the global marketplace. They will get the investors and businesses, while the US loses jobs overseas.

Ed, you’re perfectly right with this one! But you might need to understand the other side’s spin in order to debunk it.

I went to a meeting of the Boston (liberal bastion) chapter of the American Institute of Chemical Engineers last month, and there were three panelists pushing cap-and-trade legislation.

One of their arguments was that if, according to the IPCC, climate change reached a “tipping point”, the warming would accelerate and be irreversible. They used the argument that open water absorbs more sunlight than ice or snow, so that a large amount of open water in the Arctic would absorb more heat that as is now mostly reflected into space.

This argument can be debunked as follows: The Weather Channel frequently mentions “lake-effect snow”, where cold, dry winds blowing across the relatively warm Great Lakes in late fall and early winter pick up moisture, which is dumped as snow on the downwind side, especially when hills force the air upward, lowering its pressure and condensing out the snow. Weather records for many cities downwind of the Great Lakes show that February is the driest month of the year, when the lakes FREEZE OVER and evaporation is limited, while snowfall is much higher in November and December, before the lakes have frozen.

So open water near cold land causes more snowfall than if the water is frozen over. Apply this to someplace like Greenland, where the sea along the coastline is frozen throughout the winter and early spring, but melts in late spring and summer, but inland Greenland is over 2000 meters in altitude, and remains below freezing all summer. The more open water along Greenland’s coast, the more water evaporates into storms forming along the coast, which is dumped as snow in interior Greenland–thickening the ice there!

Another “spin” that’s used to sell imposing cap-and-trade on the USA is that “if the United States leads, the world will follow.”, that somehow if we show a “good” example by reducing CO2 emissions, other countries will be inspired by our efforts and not want to be considered “dirty polluters.”

I agree with you that this is specious reasoning–China and India each have about four times our population, and they will do whatever is in THEIR best interests, not ours. India is a democracy, and our ally in the struggle against terrorism, and may fear Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, but since when has China done anything the USA has asked it to do? When it comes to human rights, coerced abortion and infanticide of young girls, slave labor, Taiwan, repeated vetoes of UN resolutions, China thumbs its nose at the world, because it can get away with it. Who can FORCE China to do anything it doesn’t want to do? No one! Economic sanctions on China would certainly backfire, because China is the biggest buyer of US debt, and a huge supplier of cheap imports.

But this is the reasoning used by the Left–”if we lead, the world will follow.” We know this is B.S., but we need to answer this argument, and clearly state that the US should NOT impose cap-and-trade on CO2 without equivalent enforceable concessions from China and India.

So, Mr. Magic Barry O with your mellifluous sweet words that makes the women swoon and send tingles up MSNBC legs, use your wonderful charm to persuade Chinese and Indian diplomats to leave all their coal in the ground and go back to candles and rickshaws, and if you succeed, come back to Congress with cap-and-trade.

We’ll probably still be waiting in 2012.

Steve Z on June 1, 2009 at 7:47 PM

It never ceases to amaze me when otherwise intelligent people don’t seem to grasp that Global Warming in general and Cap & Trade specifically have absolutely nothing to do with reducing C02 or the temperature of the planet.

Cap & Trade in the U.S. does nothing to reduce global carbon emissions and has no impact on the global climate. What it will do is further weaken the U.S. economy and hamper future growth.

Another point the “global warming” scaremongers overlook is that plants grow faster and have higher crop yields in air enriched in CO2. More CO2 would not result in a warmer planet, but it would result in a greener, more fertile Earth, and we might need the extra food to feed a growing population.

Steve Z on June 1, 2009 at 7:54 PM

In short, Waxman-Markey is a disaster for the economy, but Democrats care more about looking good than in maintaining the American standard of livin

*YAWN*

Conservatives have been saying this for…how long? At what point does this get to be in the “flogging a dead horse” league?

My frustration in explaining this to liberals is starting to border on apoplexy.

gryphon202 on June 1, 2009 at 8:22 PM

The newest buzz in Gullible Warming
is earth catastrophies. They blaimme larger hurricans and forrest fires on Americans.
Raising an energy tax on the poor will not stop a single forrest fire caused by a person.
EPA declaring CO2 as a toxin will not work. It will call for illegal discrimination. They will have to decide whom to punish and what to ignore. The compost and mulch for your organic garden gives off a lot of CO2.

Gullible Warming is political zealots trying to rule the planet.

We had frost warnings in New York last Sunday night.

seven on June 2, 2009 at 10:15 AM

Not only will this bring money to the Federal Government, but it will also bring unimaginable power. The power to control everyone and everything that breathes, uses energy or makes money. And because of this and the fact that global warming is not proven, this has to be stopped at all costs.

SGinNC on June 2, 2009 at 11:30 AM