Obama argues against Uigher release

posted at 10:00 am on May 31, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Barack Obama has decided to fight the release of the 17 Chinese Uighers at Guantanamo Bay into the US, Jake Tapper reports — and he’s choosing an interesting argument to use.  While Obama has wasted no opportunity to paint Gitmo as a stain on the nation’s reputation and all but the gulag Dick Durbin called it a few years ago, the administration paints quite a different picture of it in court:

The Obama administration asked the U.S. Supreme Court Friday to reject a request for a hearing from 17 Chinese Muslims currently being held at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, arguing they have no right to come to America despite a district judge’s orders last Fall that they immediately be brought to the U.S. and released.

“Petitioners are free to return to their home country, but they understandably do not wish to do so, because they fear inhumane treatment there,” reads the filing, signed by US Solicitor General Elena Kagan, Assistant Attorney General Tony West, and other Justice Department officials. “Petitioners are also free to go to any other country that is willing to accept them.”

Many European countries are waiting for the US to accept the Uighurs before they agree to accept any more detainees from Guantanamo, but there is strong resistance from Congress, which recently voted to keep any detainees out of the US — even out of US prisons.

But not to worry — the Obama administration says the Uighurs’ detention isn’t so bad, considering.

“In contrast to individuals currently detained as enemies under the laws of war, petitioners are being housed under relatively unrestrictive conditions, given the status of Guantanamo Bay as a United States military base,” Kagan writes, saying they are “in special communal housing with access to all areas of their camp, including an outdoor recreation space and picnic area.” They “sleep in an air-conditioned bunk house and have the use of an activity room equipped with various recreational items, including a television with VCR and DVD players, a stereo system, and sports equipment.”

In fact, the conditions at the rest of the facility also are pretty decent, compared to conditions in max-security prisons elsewhere in the US.  The military runs a tight ship at Gitmo, but the prisoners have a standard of living that — apart from their detention — exceeds anything available to them in their home countries, free or not.  They certainly don’t want to be there any more than the Uighers, but as the administration admits in this filing, they’re being detained under the “laws of war.”

Presumably, they would have to be detained under the “laws of war” regardless of where we house them.  So why close Gitmo at all?

Also, Obama’s new friends in Europe have to be a little nonplussed at this filing.  He just got done twisting arms on his first trip to the EU to get our allies to take some of the Gitmo detainees.  Supposedly, the Uighers are the best of the lot, with no particular animus towards anyone but China, at least according to the administration.  If so, why did Obama go to court to block them from entering the US?  Europeans may not have been so charmed by Obama as to miss that glaring hypocrisy.

It seems that the more Obama looks at Gitmo and the military tribunal system, the better he likes both.  Maybe by this summer, Obama will finally admit out loud that George W. Bush had it right all along.


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Even the most restrictive quarters for prisoners at Gitmo look like a modern dorm room for one person. But of course the democrats and the media have been spinning these lies forever.

Blake on May 31, 2009 at 11:14 AM

Jiang:

Such is politics.

Terrye on May 31, 2009 at 11:14 AM

Is that a lie? No. It is, however, poor judgment.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:04 AM

So what about the hundreds of weapons containing mustard and sarin nerve gas etc that were found in Iraq but not widely reported by our shameful media? ‘There were no WMD in Iraq’ is a lie. Doesn’t that information change your view, even slightly?

LibTired (KO) on May 31, 2009 at 11:15 AM

The left didn’t want Bush to succeed, so they attacked our president’s policies in a time of war. Why? Plain and simple, for political gain. And with the help of the MSM, their un-American ploy worked like a charm.

fogw on May 31, 2009 at 11:09 AM

Ann is the left, she’s just the feminazi minority within. She doesn’t care about Bush or Obama or policies or weapons or anything. She just wants a feminist woman in charge. She’s so pathetic that it’s sad.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 11:15 AM

The left didn’t want Bush to succeed, so they attacked our president’s policies in a time of war. Why? Plain and simple, for political gain. And with the help of the MSM, their un-American ploy worked like a charm.

Unless it’s an Israeli type war, in and out fast, no war is ever going to work. We’ve had a huge shift in WWII thinking.

We’re not a population that wishes to be the world police anymore.

That’s clear.

We need to change military tactics, in my opinion. In and out.

Take out the heart. Ignore the criticism. And then get out fast.

These long-drawn out things seem to me, anyway, to be turning us right into Russia, where we just deplete will and money, and we still don’t win.

We won Iraq, but I think the price paid was that there is no will at all for Afghanastan.

And Iran is looking serious.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:16 AM

The general opinion is that he lied about the weapons of mass destruction to manipulate Congress into the vote for the war.

That really hurt his credibility later.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 10:49 AM

Actually we were there after Saddam failed to comply with 17 UN resolutions requiring him to destroy his WMDs under the watch of the UN Weapons Inspectors until 100% of the WMDs that HE claimed were gone. He repeatedly failed to do so. The last resolution gave him one last chance to comply. No lesser Bush hater than Hans Blix reported to the UN that Saddam could not or would not account for tens of thousands of liters of anthrax and sarin. Now if you are capable of thinking back AND intellectual honesty, you’ll recall that this was not long after the anthrax letters virtually shut down the US for several weeks. All of your Democrat comrades in the Congress thought AT THAT TIME that Saddam had to go. Once the war got tough though, the Dems went shopping…for political gain at the expense of our soldiers.

Patrick S on May 31, 2009 at 11:17 AM

Terrye on May 31, 2009 at 11:12 AM

True. The world doesn’t hate us because of Bush’s policies, the world hates us because of the left’s misguided portrayal of Bush’s policies and George W. Bush, the man.

fogw on May 31, 2009 at 11:17 AM

Jiang:

Such is politics.

Terrye on May 31, 2009 at 11:14 AM

We have to be sharper Terrye, unafraid to get down in the gutter. Gone are the days when we perceive ourselves to be some kind of majority, and therefore have some responsibility to be magnanimous to the minority. It’s very important for our sakes (and I’d assert for everyone’s sake) that we WIN.

Ann need to be convinced to vote Republican, or held accountable for Obama. We don’t need Ann telling us how reasonable the Clintons are.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 11:18 AM

So what about the hundreds of weapons containing mustard and sarin nerve gas etc that were found in Iraq but not widely reported by our shameful media? ‘There were no WMD in Iraq’ is a lie. Doesn’t that information change your view, even slightly?

Personally? I never favored the war, and I personally predicted it would eventually be rejected by the public. But, remember, I’m one who thought his support came from a very deep emotional reaction against 9/11. That always fizzles out. Revenge is a dish best eaten cold is my own personal philosophy.

He had a lot of different options, different paths. He chose war.

My own point is that I “got” it. It’s not the end of the world, either. If you read American History? Most of our wars were due to public sentiment, in one form or another.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:19 AM

I think Rush credited Ed for saying this. Obama’s statements seem to have expiration dates. Then he just produces a new statement and the MSM has amnesia.

conservnut on May 31, 2009 at 11:20 AM

True. The world doesn’t hate us because of Bush’s policies, the world hates us because of the left’s misguided portrayal of Bush’s policies and George W. Bush, the man.

fogw on May 31, 2009 at 11:17 AM

And also we are hated because we are a wealthy nation. But Barry is taking care of that angle, so no worries, lefties. Love is on the way.

Patrick S on May 31, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Apparently Obama is now trying to pressure the Australian Government into taking them. The only problem is that Bush tried this at the start of the year and was told rather politely to go get bent. Somehow I don’t see them changing their mind just because Obama is President now.

The interesting thing however about the Australian Governments initial refusal to take the Uigher’s is the fact that it appears that it wasn’t Australian public opinion (which was overwhelmingly against taking them) that the Rudd Government acted on but rather that they were warned by the Chinese Government not to take them.

Dreadnought223 on May 31, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Actually we were there after Saddam failed to comply with 17 UN resolutions requiring him to destroy his WMDs under the watch of the UN Weapons Inspectors until 100% of the WMDs that HE claimed were gone. He repeatedly failed to do so. The last resolution gave him one last chance to comply. No lesser Bush hater than Hans Blix reported to the UN that Saddam could not or would not account for tens of thousands of liters of anthrax and sarin. Now if you are capable of thinking back AND intellectual honesty, you’ll recall that this was not long after the anthrax letters virtually shut down the US for several weeks. All of your Democrat comrades in the Congress thought AT THAT TIME that Saddam had to go. Once the war got tough though, the Dems went shopping…for political gain at the expense of our soldiers.

NK is far more aggressive, and I’m sure we’re not going to war there. :)

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:20 AM

After months of “fact finding” it appears that the Administration is wrestling with the very Constitutional idea that once ANY Gitmo detainees arrive on US soil they will be afforded all Rights of US Persons in our Judicial system…thus, once a Gitmo detainee arrives in the US, on US soil, they can be arraigned, and if insufficient cause is found to hold them, anywhere, they must be released on their own recognizance, to travel about the country as they deem fit, and leave, if they so desire. There is a strong possibility that they may not have to be arraigned at all…since not all of them can be shown to have violated US law and acted against US persons. The legality of continuing to hold them under detention after their arrival in the US is something even the Obama Administration does not want to get into…as it will lose…there is precedent and US Supreme Court affirmation of the present “rights” of the detainees.

This is the sole reason Gitmo was chosen, as an extraterritorial portion of the United States, where non US-military members/contractors are subject to the laws of Cuba…and Cuba refuses to recognize that the US has control over Guantanamo…anywhere else, anywhere else in the world, and the detainees could have easily been subject to the laws of whatever country in which they were held.

The choice of Gitmo was merely an affirmation of Johnson v. Eisentrager, and, to date, Johnson v. Eisentrager has been upheld.

Once Obama tries to wing it…there are larger Constitutional issues that will come into play…and not very neatly, either.

coldwarrior on May 31, 2009 at 11:21 AM

We need to change military tactics, in my opinion. In and out.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:16 AM

Yes, let’s issue every soldier a field pack full of flowers, candy and puppies, and throw those nasty weapons in the nearest dumpster.

World Peace is nigh. Thank you AnninCA.

fogw on May 31, 2009 at 11:21 AM

We should send those dudes back to China.

I’ve never understood why we expect everyone to support our efforts against terrorism – but we refuse to support China’s efforts against their Islamofascits and Russia’s efforts against their Islamofascits in Chechnya.

If I were President – I would have told Putin long ago – “Hey do whatever you need to do in Chechnya – because when those guys aren’t fighting you they’re sending fighters against us.”

Which is completely true.

Who cares about these Chinese Islamofascists? Let ‘em face the music in Peking I say.

HondaV65 on May 31, 2009 at 11:23 AM

NK is far more aggressive, and I’m sure we’re not going to war there. :)

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:20 AM

We’ve been technically “at war” with North Korea since June 1950. Now that Kim Chong-il has unilaterally suspended the 1953 Armistice (last week) we are once again “at war” with North Korea in every legal sense.

coldwarrior on May 31, 2009 at 11:23 AM

Yes, let’s issue every soldier a field pack full of flowers, candy and puppies, and throw those nasty weapons in the nearest dumpster.

I so think you’re missing the point. I’m talking about a lot MORE direct aggression. If there’s one country that I think has a clearer military policy, it’s Israel.

It’s targeted. It’s self-defense. It’s extraordinarily effected. And it’s not even that expensive.

No wonder they have 70% public support. We should learn.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:24 AM

fogw on May 31, 2009 at 11:21 AM

I’d rather my son keep his weapon, so no, I don’t think I want to do it Ann’s way.

ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 11:24 AM

Unless it’s an Israeli type war, in and out fast, no war is ever going to work. We’ve had a huge shift in WWII thinking.

We’re not a population that wishes to be the world police anymore.

That’s clear.

We need to change military tactics, in my opinion. In and out.

Take out the heart. Ignore the criticism. And then get out fast.

These long-drawn out things seem to me, anyway, to be turning us right into Russia, where we just deplete will and money, and we still don’t win.

We won Iraq, but I think the price paid was that there is no will at all for Afghanastan.

And Iran is looking serious.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:16 AM

Well I guess she outs herself after all.

What a preposterous load of crap. She and her kind are the cause of the defeatist thinking she mentions, but acts as if she’s a victim of those beliefs.

We won Iraq? Who’s WE?? You Ann? You won Iraq? You supported the war in Iraq? You supported Bush??

Iran is looking dangerous? Thank for the heads-up. Didn’t know.

Lying deceitful coward.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 11:24 AM

Unless it’s an Israeli type war, in and out fast, no war is ever going to work.

We won Iraq, but….

Heh. You’re funny, Ann.

Pablo on May 31, 2009 at 11:25 AM

No wonder they have 70% public support. We should learn.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:24 AM

It’s a lot easier to get 70% public support when the public, at one time or another, served in the miltiary.

ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 11:25 AM

Heh. You’re funny, Ann.

Pablo on May 31, 2009 at 11:25 AM

She’s just so stupid it’s painful. Kicked off of all the lefty blogs cause she can’t forgive Obama for destroying Queen Hillary, she has nowhere to go but here. They won’t let her last a day there. Here, she’ll last a month or more.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 11:30 AM

We won Iraq? Who’s WE?? You Ann? You won Iraq? You supported the war in Iraq? You supported Bush??

Odd choice of words Ann used considering she also said she never favored the war and that she “got it.”

Bishop on May 31, 2009 at 11:30 AM

It’s a lot easier to get 70% public support when the public, at one time or another, served in the miltiary.

From my own take, it seems to have much more to do with sending your kids to school where there are bomb shelters.

It’s self-defense and a clear sense of danger that is real.

9/11 was just that to me, anyway.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:30 AM

I so think you’re missing the point.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:24 AM

I so think you don’t have a clue. Israel is about to endorse the Bush Policy – somebody attacks us we’re going to take them out. Actually they will be slightly more aggressive than Bush. They will take out Iran at merely the threat of an imininent attack with nuclear weapons.

So much for new progressiv thinking, heh?

fogw on May 31, 2009 at 11:32 AM

I supported the war once we were in it. I did not support going to Iraq.

Once there, then I had no problem in seeing we had to see this through to the end, and I was absolutely a McCain supporter on the surge and in his own campaign.

I agreed with him. Still do.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:32 AM

So much for new progressiv thinking, heh?

You’re still missing the point. I like their perspective. I agree with Israel.

Which is why I said, we need to be more aggressive, too.

For example, our drones have been highly effective in Pakistan. We need to continue using them. I read recently that Obama is considering stopping them. Why?

I think we need to either gut the Taliban or get out entirely.

No more of this send troops and drag things out. People don’t have the will for that.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:35 AM

No more of this send troops and drag things out. People Spineless surrender monkeys don’t have the will for that.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:35 AM

For some reason you think all “people” share your views. A common mistake made by liberals, and one I read about constantly in the media.

I think we need to either gut the Taliban or get out entirely.

Good, then you agree with our current policy which is centered upon eliminating the Taliban using brute force.

fogw on May 31, 2009 at 11:43 AM

No more of this send troops and drag things out. People don’t have the will for that.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:35 AM

Things “drag out” when the politicians get involved…leave it to the military leaders in the field and get outta the way.

ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 11:43 AM

Things “drag out” when the politicians get involved…leave it to the military leaders in the field and get outta the way.

What politicians? You mean, Obama?

The decision to stop using drones is his. (That hasn’t completely happened yet, but it was floated.)

Congress? That’s my entire thesis here. Congress doesn’t have power. Power in Congress comes from the will of the people. They are closer to the voters.

So unless people are fired up, Congress takes a pass.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:47 AM

For some reason you think all “people” share your views. A common mistake made by liberals, and one I read about constantly in the media.

I think you CAN read the will of the people. Balance polling with election results and, most of all, what topics are of interest……you can get a read on people.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:49 AM

I’m so disappointed that our Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, wife of a former President, former presidential candidate herself, has no criticism of the Obama administration’s handling of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, the economy, etc.

Why is there no difference between Obama and her?

I thought Hillary was a different kind of Democrat. Why is she silent? At least Obama is honest about his intentions. Why did Hillary lie when she suggested there was a difference between them?

Why is Hillary Clinton a coward?

Deceit, thy name is Ann.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 11:50 AM

I’d like to see “W” come out with a statement congratulating Obama on the list of policies that he blasted during the campaign, then adopted, once he was in office.

Star20 on May 31, 2009 at 11:50 AM

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:47 AM

I mean all of them. Give them all the resources they need and then get out of the way.

ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 11:50 AM

I think you CAN read the will of the people.

Idiot.

The will of the people needs to be molded by honest, capable leaders. People need to be taught right from wrong, good from evil, up from down.

The will of the people chose Obama. Put down your crack pipe.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 11:52 AM

I think we need to either gut the Taliban or get out entirely.
No more of this send troops and drag things out. People don’t have the will for that.
AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:35 AM

Wait…what? You have been watching too many B-grade movies about Navy Seals or something.

Bishop on May 31, 2009 at 11:52 AM

Idiot.

The will of the people needs to be molded by honest, capable leaders. People need to be taught right from wrong, good from evil, up from down.

The will of the people chose Obama. Put down your crack pipe.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 11:52 AM

An honest unbiased media would be very helpful here.

ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 11:53 AM

Wait…what? You have been watching too many B-grade movies about Navy Seals or something.

Bishop on May 31, 2009 at 11:52 AM

Apparently our friend Ann has no concept of the reality of war…

ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 11:54 AM

I’d like to see “W” come out with a statement congratulating Obama on the list of policies that he blasted during the campaign, then adopted, once he was in office.

Bush recently supported Cheney about the effectivity of the CIA. That’s enough.

The record will speak for itself on other issues.

He doesn’t need to become Jimmy Carter and be obnoxious.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:54 AM

I’d like to see “W” come out with a statement congratulating Obama on the list of policies that he blasted during the campaign, then adopted, once he was in office.
Star20 on May 31, 2009 at 11:50 AM

It will never happen, Dubya understands the dignity of the office and the moral vacuity of pointing fingers at everyone else, something the current President utterly lacks.

Bishop on May 31, 2009 at 11:54 AM

Wait…what? You have been watching too many B-grade movies about Navy Seals or something.

That’s a criticism that made me laugh. Probably true.

I want an Israel strike-force type, even though we’re how much bigger? LOL*

touche’!

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:56 AM

An honest unbiased media would be very helpful here.

ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 11:53 AM

Yes, our lives and futures would be different if we had that. But we don’t. And when we find a Kool-Aid drinker, and purveyor, like Ann, don’t let her off the hook!

Indiv. democrats and republican voters are responsible for their parties’ policies and leaders.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 11:57 AM

Indiv. democrats and republican voters are responsible for their parties’ policies and leaders.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 11:57 AM

I agree.

ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 11:58 AM

The will of the people needs to be molded by honest, capable leaders. People need to be taught right from wrong, good from evil, up from down.

I have the same discussion over and over with people on the far left.

You imagine that the center is like clay, ready to be molded.

I disagree.

People aren’t clay. They do know what they think. They are certainly open to new information, but they aren’t twisty sticks.

And that’s why Democracy works.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:58 AM

Bush recently supported Cheney about the effectivity of the CIA. That’s enough.

The record will speak for itself on other issues.

He doesn’t need to become Jimmy Carter and be obnoxious.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:54 AM

A Hillary Clinton voter advising Republicans and Conservatives on what Bush should and shouldn’t do. Priceless.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 11:58 AM

How do I sign up for 2 weeks at Vacation Paradise Gitmo?

The problem is that you can’t. It’s been almost eight years and counting. A prison is a prison, even if it’s a nice prison. These people’s lives are on hold, a whole decade lost. If that’s necessary and proper for the U.S., then it’s understandable, but don’t act as though we’re doing them a favor.

Whenever I see discussion of the Uighers, it seems that people are rather vague about what exactly they did. Their proponents claim they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The worst-case scenario often spun is that they were aspiring separatists getting trained in Afghanistan to wage violence against China. But much of the news seems to indicate that reports of an organized violent independence movement might have been fabricated by China in order to stifle the organized non-violent movement (and occasional violent bursts by unorganized parties). The U.S. agreed that this violent group existed in exchange for China cooperating in the global war on terror. This might not be Uigher terrorism at all, but instead about diplomacy, aiding oppression in China in order to get intelligence and diplomatic support. But most news I read about this tries to pretend otherwise: That these are innocent people swept up in terror hysteria or that these are dangerous international terrorists we’re justly locking up. The ugly fact may be that instead they’re diplomatic pawns. At least that’s what the opaqueness of this whole ordeal makes me suspect.

calbear on May 31, 2009 at 11:59 AM

Apparently our friend Ann has no concept of the reality of war…
ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 11:54 AM

Or the reality of modern combat operations, as if we will “gut” the Taliban by sending in guys with knives in their teeth and bandannas wrapped around their heads.

Bishop on May 31, 2009 at 11:59 AM

I’ve always wondered how obama was going to guarantee the safety of the Uighers in the US. It would look pretty bad for his holiness if he releases them into the US and one day soon they all happened to have “accidents”.

I mean is he going to provide these Uighers with Secret Service details in perpetuity or is he going to have to explain to his euro socialist betters that he released them here only to get killed by right wing extremists?

If he cares about their human rights he’ll leave them in Gitmo.

elduende on May 31, 2009 at 11:59 AM

People aren’t clay. They do know what they think. They are certainly open to new information, but they aren’t twisty sticks.

And that’s why Democracy works.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:58 AM

They haven’t the faintest idea what to think, or how to think. They know what to think from TV.

And that’s why democracy doesn’t work.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 12:00 PM

Or the reality of modern combat operations, as if we will “gut” the Taliban by sending in guys with knives in their teeth and bandannas wrapped around their heads.

Bishop on May 31, 2009 at 11:59 AM

Exactly.

ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 12:01 PM

People aren’t clay. They do know what they think. They are certainly open to new information, but they aren’t twisty sticks.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:58 AM

Obama’s voters thought he spoke the truth and would keep his word. Obama’s voters think he will pay off their mortgage and make their car payments. Obama’s voters think he won’t raise their taxes. Obama’s voters think the whole world will forever be at peace now because Obama will have direct talks with our enemies.

Obama’s supporters do not rise to the level of twisty sticks.

fogw on May 31, 2009 at 12:05 PM

I really want the drones to continue to take out the heart of the Taliban, in support of Pakistan.

That’s my own druthers.

Yes, the drones do hit communities. Yes, it will bring out criticism.

So what?

Otherwise, let’s just get out entirely.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:05 PM

Obama’s voters thought he spoke the truth and would keep his word. Obama’s voters think he will pay off their mortgage and make their car payments. Obama’s voters think he won’t raise their taxes. Obama’s voters think the whole world will forever be at peace now because Obama will have direct talks with our enemies.

The far left or the young voters think that.

Nobody else. Remember, he did win the center. And they aren’t that nutty.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:07 PM

By the way, I was equally nutty as a young voter.

People aren’t stupid. They know the difference between campaign rhetoric and reality.

Who doesn’t seems to be the “chatter” class.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:08 PM

Yes, the drones do hit communities. Yes, it will bring out criticism.
So what?

Carpet bombing Gaza into the Pleistocene would fit into that template. Waddya think, good idea or not?

Bishop on May 31, 2009 at 12:09 PM

The far left or the young voters think that.

Nobody else. Remember, he did win the center. And they aren’t that nutty.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:07 PM

You have no idea what you’re talking about. My cousin is a moderate, and she voted for Obama because she thought McCain was a “warmonger”. She bought the lie.

And look what she has now…the same policies as Bush and a nuclear NORK. Thanks, cuz.

ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 12:09 PM

The far left or the young voters think that.

Nobody else. Remember, he did win the center. And they aren’t that nutty.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:07 PM

Interesting conclusion. I gather from your words of wisdom that all black voters are either far left or young.

fogw on May 31, 2009 at 12:11 PM

Obama’s voters thought he spoke the truth and would keep his word. Obama’s voters think he will pay off their mortgage and make their car payments. Obama’s voters think he won’t raise their taxes. Obama’s voters think the whole world will forever be at peace now because Obama will have direct talks with our enemies.

Good thread at Ace’s yesterday on this. It says then when the tax increases arrive, and the dollar collapses, people will lose their fear of not belonging to the in-crowd, and be willing to openly criticize obama. Right now they have “falsified preferences” in order to not stand out from the crowd. That can change on a dime. A mustard-seed of hope. :) And the Republican party needs to be there waiting. It doesn’t matter if the internal debates are settled or not. It merely needs to be available to catch people looking for a place to go.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 12:11 PM

Carpet bombing Gaza into the Pleistocene would fit into that template. Waddya think, good idea or not?

I thought the latest was brilliant. It was pure Israeli tour de force.

In-Out, devastating, ignore the critics.

And the result was 70% support by the public.

Can’t beat that.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:12 PM

Interesting conclusion. I gather from your words of wisdom that all black voters are either far left or young.

Obviously not. I have no criticism about the block AA vote. If I were AA, I’d have been right there, too.

It was truly historic. And there’s nothing wrong with that pride.

That’s positive.

I’m pleased for AA people on this account.

But the rest of us can get down to specific policies, of course, without being “racist.”

And so we are.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:14 PM

You have no idea what you’re talking about. My cousin is a moderate, and she voted for Obama because she thought McCain was a “warmonger”. She bought the lie.

McCain isn’t a warmonger, but his response to Russia/Georgia sure was odd, so I can imagine why your cousin veered away. He sounded nutty in that deal.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:16 PM

Remember, he did win the center.

I am the center.

Don’t paint your version of the center as a “moderate” democrat voter. The center today is liberal. JFK would be considered a conservative today.

Moving the goalposts is BS. You were a far far left nutter when you were young. Now you are a far left nutter.

The center means crap. It has no virtue.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 12:16 PM

Obviously not. I have no criticism about the block AA vote. If I were AA, I’d have been right there, too.

It was truly historic. And there’s nothing wrong with that pride.

That’s positive.

I’m pleased for AA people on this account.

But the rest of us can get down to specific policies, of course, without being “racist.”

And so we are.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:14 PM

LOL. Sotomayor is here. African-Americans ought to vote for AA candidates. Latina’s have better vision. Women ought to vote for women.

Can you possibly discredit yourself any further.

I know you are too dumb to get it, but your own words identify you as the enemy. You’re in favor of identity politics. Choose the candidate who matches your skin. Moron.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 12:20 PM

And that’s why democracy doesn’t work.

So I’m curious. If you’re not a supporter of democracy, what type of government structure do you support?

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:21 PM

Can’t beat that.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:12 PM

Yes, you can. As is the case with all wars fought by Western powers since WWII, the Israelis didn’t finish the job.

So, we shall have this conversation again – and again.

OldEnglish on May 31, 2009 at 12:21 PM

I have a lot of Anns in my family. It’s painful, because they’re so earnestly stupid, but I can’t take any more of her. cya.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 12:22 PM

I am the center.

I don’t think that someone who thinks democracy doesn’t work is center.

Call me nutty. :)

But I think that counts you out.

What are you, by definition?

Curious.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:23 PM

Aha! Leaving right when you got asked a real question.

You don’t believe democracy works, J-Dad.

So what ARE you, politically speaking?

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:24 PM

Yes, you can. As is the case with all wars fought by Western powers since WWII, the Israelis didn’t finish the job.

What do you mean? Take out Iran?

(I’d personally support a complete take-out.)

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:26 PM

McCain isn’t a warmonger, but his response to Russia/Georgia sure was odd, so I can imagine why your cousin veered away. He sounded nutty in that deal.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:16 PM

honoring treaty commitments and standing by a strategic ally is “odd”. So the answer is the candidate that waited over a week to come out and say he would do what McCain said. Seriously?

One thing I am sure of; reality has a veto on the hope and change bullshit. Obama has made global instability, war, death, and untold suffering, possible on a scale not seen for 2 generations. Watch what happens in the mid east soon.

elduende on May 31, 2009 at 12:29 PM

I’ll own up to being non-military in reality and probably super-naive.

I just like the Israeli style of war.

In and out.

Deadly effective. Willing to take criticism from the public world opinion.

But note they don’t get into these stupid Gitmo deals.

I think, honestly, I want NCIS to handle the military. *haha

(That’s truly a joke, folks.)

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:29 PM

Ann

I think Obama only won the center because he ran as a centrist

Using leftist ideals masked in centrist rhetoric

blatantblue on May 31, 2009 at 12:30 PM

Israeli in and out tactics are only so effective.

The enemy just reups

blatantblue on May 31, 2009 at 12:31 PM

Aha! Leaving right when you got asked a real question.

You don’t believe democracy works, J-Dad.

So what ARE you, politically speaking?

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:24 PM

Oh for craps sake. I was leaving to relieve myself, get something to eat, and because you aren’t worth it.

I’m not in favor of universal suffrage, and unlimited immigration of uneducated people from cultures that don’t value self-reliance, individualism, entrepreneurship, etc. I don’t want immigrants from Muslim countries.
I’m in favor of voting requirements that are strict such as the payment of federal taxes, property or investments, military service, or some types of indications that someone has a stake in the country’s success. The age limit ought to be raised, except for those serving in the military. The military ought to get two votes/person. I’m prob. in favor of mandated term limits, a six year, one-term presidency, and things like that. I’m in favor of a meritocracy where the smartest and best get the furthest. I’m in favor of states’ rights, limited gov’t, gun rights, religious freedom, and whatever kind of gov’t holds those things as its highest values. I know that that isn’t the Democrat parties idea of gov’t. And now I am gonna pee. So bye Ann.

JiangxiDad on May 31, 2009 at 12:31 PM

I think Obama only won the center because he ran as a centrist

My own personal opinion about this is pretty radical, so I’ll spare you.

But I do have a very clear opinion on this past election.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:38 PM

But note they don’t get into these stupid Gitmo deals.

You might want to have a talk with the Israelis, and the Pals; pay particular attention to the ’1 = 1000′ prisoner swap criteria.

Bishop on May 31, 2009 at 12:39 PM

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:26 PM

In this instance, I was referring to Gaza, but Iran, when hit, should be hit hard enough to remove any threat it may pose.

OldEnglish on May 31, 2009 at 12:39 PM

I’m in favor of voting requirements that are strict such as the payment of federal taxes, property or investments, military service, or some types of indications that someone has a stake in the country’s success. The age limit ought to be raised, except for those serving in the military.

Okey dokey. :)

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:40 PM

Israeli in and out tactics are only so effective.

I told you I was aggressive. Didn’t hide that.

I think your argument is academic.

My own perspective is that you knock them down for a few decades.

We need to think in terms of decades, not ultimate solutions.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:41 PM

Obviously not. I have no criticism about the block AA vote. If I were AA, I’d have been right there, too.
It was truly historic. And there’s nothing wrong with that pride.
That’s positive.

Same sort of positiveness had Mumia been the candidate? Voting for someone, anyone based on little more than their skin color is not only naive, it’s ignorant. Professing that you too would have been happy to be ignorant had you been black and voting for Ogabe…that’s just stupid.

Bishop on May 31, 2009 at 12:43 PM

Did Obama choose this policy, or did some anonymous staffer make a good presentation in favor of this approach and Obama vote present?

Skandia Recluse on May 31, 2009 at 12:44 PM

Agreed ann
but if we think in decades

In and out just let’s the enemy rearm everytime

That is just butting heads for decades. The jihadis won’t give up.

blatantblue on May 31, 2009 at 12:45 PM

That is just butting heads for decades. The jihadis won’t give up.

That is how Russia finally lost. We just kept butting heads.

We have the will for this one. The nature of the Jihadis is not against America. It’s against world history. We’re simply on the right side of this one. Nobody is interested in this type of religious revisionism today, with its extreme punishments, etc.

We’re ALL trying to let them get over it.

Seriously, there is no civilized or even uncivilized group that supports this bunch of beheading nutcases.

We have world support. We just need to be bold, like Israel, and take them out.

No pussy-footing. Just send in the drones and take out the heart.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:52 PM

That is just butting heads for decades. The jihadis won’t give up.

Obama’s argument that our policies strengthened them is just not flying with the center. We agree with you.

These are fanatics. Obviously.

You can’t really negotiate with fanatics. That’s the definition of that type of thinking. No negotiation. (Some posters here demonstrate that, too. *)

Normal people have met this type in real life, and we already get it.

You just accept them and understand that the only solution is anhilation threats.

And then, hopefully, as a more human country, we don’t actually anhiliate.

We didn’t do that in WWII. I don’t see why we’d do it now.

I trust us on that issue.

What we’re doing in Pakistan reminds me alot of the Japanese situation in WWII, where there were pockets.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Same sort of positiveness had Mumia been the candidate? Voting for someone, anyone based on little more than their skin color is not only naive, it’s ignorant. Professing that you too would have been happy to be ignorant had you been black and voting for Ogabe…that’s just stupid.

I don’t agree. Obama is not just anyone. That’s obvious.

Racial pride vote? That’s as valid as many reasons.

Anyway, I just don’t agree.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:59 PM

I thought the latest was brilliant. It was pure Israeli tour de force.

In-Out, devastating, ignore the critics.

And the result was 70% support by the public.

Can’t beat that.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:12 PM

Albert Einstein once said “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.

Once or twice a year Israel plays whack a mole with the Pali’s then goes away, lets them regroup and rebuild. The Pali’s once they reorganize start sending rockets and mortars and walking not so smart bombs against their civs til the Israeli’s get tired of it and start all over again.

And this goes on year after year after year. So what’s so great about over turning the same rubble again and again?

What the US should be pushing for is for Jordan to take the West Bank and Egypt to take Gaza since its beyond obvious they can’t govern themselves without attacking Israel.

This will never happen of course because western diplamats keep thinking some how if they keep talking everyone will come together in a great big group hug and Pali “leaders” either think

a) they can make a great deal of blood money off the suffering of their people.

or

b) are so filled with hate they can’r bear to think of a future where they aren’t attacking Jews.

warren on May 31, 2009 at 1:00 PM

warren…..My personal opinion, which has changed over 20 years, is that they are, in fact, anti-semites.

Europe has shocked me with the continuing anti-semitism.

That’s all this is about, in my opinion.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 1:09 PM

And, no, people……I’m not Jewish.

But I watch, listen, pay attention.

This is anti-semitism.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 1:10 PM

Everyone who pressed for the release of those who HAVE ALREADY returned to terrorism should be prosecuted for rank derelection of their fundamental Constitutional duty to protect and defend the nation, at the very least.

That there have been no consequences to their criminal negligence is insane.

profitsbeard on May 31, 2009 at 1:20 PM

McCain isn’t a warmonger, but his response to Russia/Georgia sure was odd, so I can imagine why your cousin veered away. He sounded nutty in that deal.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 12:16 PM

It had nothing to do with McCain’s comments on Georgia. It had to do with the fact that he supported the surge in Iraq. She bought Obama’s lies that he would be different than W.

ladyingray on May 31, 2009 at 2:09 PM

Odd? What because McCain thought the Russians were the bullies? Look at a map. Obama, meanwhile was just telling everyone to play nice.

Terrye on May 31, 2009 at 2:23 PM

BREAKING NEWS:
Off topic late term abortion doctor, Dr. George Tiller has been shot DEAD.

G. on May 31, 2009 at 2:35 PM

Seriously, Ann, the Israeli model? We need to adopt the Israeli model?

Because the US has the same interests, right? You’ll have no trouble blowing people’s heads off with cell phones, etc etc etc. Israel’s mythical “strike force”? Here’s a hint: it doesn’t exist. What the Israelis have is a relatively modern military that is higly trained and gets plenty of combat experience because they are surrounded by countries that don’t like them, many of whom do not even acknowledge that they exists.

By the way, on any given day, we do have a “strike force” afloat. It’s called a MEU/SOC. BUt you don’t conduct wars by strike force. You can kick in doors til the Army shows up.

The whole “In and Out” lie that you’ve bought into has a lot to do with the first Gulf War, I’ll bet. What you don’t realize is how small Kuwait is, how little time Saddam’s forces had to dig in, our massive aerial supremacy, the inexplicable 6 month logistical build up, the massive number of conventional forces, and the *extremely* limited scope of the whole operation. That “100 hour war” BS is propaganda. Pro US proganda, but it does not accurately portray the events that took place.

flashoverride on May 31, 2009 at 2:49 PM

I was a HUGE supporter of Bill Clinton and of Hillary. I sure don’t think I’ve ever hidden that. Bill Clinton is my kind of Democrat…fiscally conservative.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 10:39 AM

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, but can you tell us exactly why you supported the Clintons?

After all, they didn’t exactly “accomplish” anything in their 8 years in the White House.

Bill Clinton inherited (and took full credit for) an economic recovery that in reality began 18 months before the media elected him, and he did little of consequence in the next 8 years. Welfare reform, which he signed, was the Republican’s doing; he had already rejected it twice before caving.

He did however blame Rush Limbaugh for the OK City bombing, and did help along the Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac debacle.

Billy Jeff also claimed that Saddam and bin Laden were in cahoots, said Saddam had WMDs, and left his successor the 9/11 attacks, which bin Laden himself said were supposed to happen on his watch.

As for Hillary, she did basically nothing as “First Lady” except blame the Republicans for her husband’s sexual exploits with a workplace subordinate, which got a pass from Leftists like yourself who would have held a Republican President to a much higher moral standard. What many Clinton supporters don’t know is that Clinton’s Justice Department had previously prosecuted a female Federal employee-for lying under oath about sex. Talk about a double standard…

Hillary then got the media to elect her as a carpetbagger to represent a state she had never lived in.

Noted Massachusetts historian Richard Goodwin, who was an aide and speechwriter for both John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson (and who admitted voting for Clinton twice himself) wrote a devastating critique of Mr. Clinton in the July 4 1999 edition of The Boston Globe. In it, he concluded that Clinton’s Presidency was a failure on every level. And he didn’t even include terrorism in his laundry list.

And remember, he wrote thia a year and a half before Clinton left office.

Goodwin starts this way:

LOST OPPORTUNITIES ARE AT THE HEART OF THE CLINTON LEGACY

Published on July 4, 1999

Author: Richard Goodwin

Perhaps the most notable characteristic of the Clinton administration has been the belief that to talk about a problem is to deal with it or, at least, to persuade others that you are dealing with it. Thus, we have been treated to passionate discussions of race or education unaccompanied by any substantial measures, almost as if to name a problem were to solve it.

Sad to say, that’s about the nicest thing Goodwin had to say about the guy.

To read the entire article you will have to pay $2.95. It’s available at the Boston Globe archives.

Del Dolemonte on May 31, 2009 at 2:53 PM

Personally? I never favored the war, and I personally predicted it would eventually be rejected by the public. But, remember, I’m one who thought his support came from a very deep emotional reaction against 9/11. That always fizzles out. Revenge is a dish best eaten cold is my own personal philosophy.

He had a lot of different options, different paths. He chose war.

My own point is that I “got” it. It’s not the end of the world, either. If you read American History? Most of our wars were due to public sentiment, in one form or another.

AnninCA on May 31, 2009 at 11:19 AM

“He had a lot of different options, different paths. He chose war.”

You are talking about Saddam? Right??
Saddam only existed because he fought wars.
Remember that little war between Iran & Iraq?
One million dead.

There was no other way to stop Saddam. He was back on track
to develop nuclear weapons. Bush calculated that he had enough
support and time to get rid of Saddam and that is what he did.
It bought us time to deal with Iran but Barry is doing his best to throw it
all in the toilet. Mr. Zero’s strategy of dealing with Iran is on an epic failure
course. What we should be doing is supporting Israel as they would be the first line of defense against Iran. Mr. Zero does not see Iran as a threat that he can’t deal with by blah, blah, blah talking about. A lot of good talking did with North Korea. Barry must want to be the 2nd president in US history to see nuclear weapons used in a time of war. This time the nuclear weapons won’t end a war, it will be the beginning of WWIII and it all starts on Mr. Zero’s watch.

izoneguy on May 31, 2009 at 3:27 PM

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