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Kmiec: Time to get government out of the marriage business

posted at 10:12 am on May 28, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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I don’t agree with Douglas Kmiec often, but this may be the exceptionmaybe.  With all of the various legal and legislative challenges to the definition of marriage in states across the nation, Kmiec tells Catholic News Agency that government should restrict itself to enforcing contract law and leave the question of marriage to the churches.  Robert George, a highly respected Constitutional scholar and fellow Catholic, vehemently disagrees (via The Corner):

Doug Kmiec, a prominent Catholic who backed Barack Obama’s presidential bid, has endorsed replacing marriage with a neutral “civil license,” a proposal law professor Robert P. George called a “terrible idea” that would make the government neglect a vital social institution.

Speaking to CNSNews.com, Pepperdine University law professor Doug Kmiec said that although his solution to disputes over the definition of marriage might be “awkward,” it would “untie the state from this problem” by creating a new terminology that would apply to everyone, homosexual or not. “Call it a ‘civil license’,” he said.

“The net effect of that, would be to turn over–quite appropriately, it seems to me, the concept of marriage to churches and a church understanding,” he said.

George counters:

“It’s a pre-political institution,” he said. “It exists even apart from religion, even apart from polities. It’s the coming together of a husband and wife, creating the institution of family in which children are nurtured.”

“The family is the original and best Department of Health, Education and Welfare,” he continued, saying that governments, economies and legal systems all rely on the family to produce “basically honest, decent law abiding people of goodwill – citizens – who can take their rightful place in society.”

“Family is built on marriage, and government–the state–has a profound interest in the integrity and well-being of marriage, and to write it off as if it were a purely a religiously significant action and not an institution and action that has a profound public significance, would be a terrible mistake,” George told CNSNews.com.

“I don’t know where Professor Kmiec is getting his idea, but it’s a very, very bad one.”

Normally in any debate between Kmiec and George, I’d rely on the latter, especially on matters of faith.  However, in this case, Kmiec has the better argument, mostly because the “state” gave up protecting marriage and children decades ago.  The advent of no-fault divorce, in which one party can abrogate the marriage contract without penalty or consideration of the other party, has completely destroyed the notion that the government plays a role in protecting “integrity and well-being of the family.”  In fact, I’d argue that serial marriers of the kind seen in Hollywood (or in Washington DC) do more to undermine marriage than single-gender unions would ever do.

The state could get out of the marriage business entirely, and have its citizens enter into partnership contracts instead.  That might have the salutary effect of putting mechanisms into place for dissolutions that would keep divorces from dragging on through the courts, but also give the state more ability to enforce the terms of the contract than government is willing to do with marriages that lack pre-nuptial agreements, especially on penalties for abrogation.  That would also give the courts an opening to finally get rid of “palimony”, that noxious avenue where the courts have to make determinations whether contractual relations exist between people who neither execute a contract or take wedding vows.

Churches could then recognize marriage along their own precepts.  Catholics who want to get married in a Catholic church would still have to be a heterosexual couple above the age of consent, at least one of whom is Catholic, without issues of consanguinuity, but would have to also sign a partnership contract for the civil recognition of the relationship.  It would be little different than the current requirement of getting a marriage license now, except that the agreement would have more detail on the partnership than the current marriage license provides, although even that could be more or less boilerplate for many couples.

Would the public accept the withdrawal of government from the blessing of marriages?  Not at first, certainly, but the public also won’t back a revocation of no-fault divorce, either, which strongly implies that a government imposed “integrity of marriages” solution won’t be popular at all.  I’d expect this to be the eventual solution to the definition-of-marriage argument.

Update: Green Room contributor Pundette disagrees with me.  Be sure to read why.


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I agree with Kmiec 100% here and have long been advocating this (to whomever would listen to my rants mostly). This is one of 100’s of things we need to get government out of the business of.

King of the Britons on May 28, 2009 at 10:18 AM

“It’s a pre-political institution,” he said. “It exists even apart from religion, even apart from polities. It’s the coming together of a husband and wife, creating the institution of family in which children are nurtured.”

Even if the state butted out, it doesn’t affect the existence of marriage – unless the argument can be made that every single marriage throughout history has had government approval…

“The family is the original and best Department of Health, Education and Welfare,” he continued, saying that governments, economies and legal systems all rely on the family to produce “basically honest, decent law abiding people of goodwill – citizens – who can take their rightful place in society.”

Again, government defining marriage or family doesn’t seem to affect this process. Further, what about say single mothers? In particular “families” formed without marriage? What would their legal protected status be?

I think I have to go with Ed on this one, but this will be a long thread…

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 10:19 AM

I’m a conservative Christian, and I recommended the very same thing in discussions with my friends.

Daggett on May 28, 2009 at 10:19 AM

If you get government out of legally recognizing marriage, you should probably replace certain aspects of it with a declaration of intent to produce and raise children, by which the relevant benefits can be bestowed.

Count to 10 on May 28, 2009 at 10:20 AM

There is a problem with relying on contract law; Our current president is throwing that overboard too. It now means nothing.

Dasher on May 28, 2009 at 10:21 AM

That might have the salutary effect of putting mechanisms into place for dissolutions that would keep divorces from dragging on through the courts

As messy as that is, how else does one dissolve a marriage equitably?

jgapinoy on May 28, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Agreed.
The more the government gets OUT OF, the better!

bridgetown on May 28, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Rely on contract law instead.

That was a joke, right, after what we’ve seen happen to the Chrysler bondholders?

BigD on May 28, 2009 at 10:22 AM

Contract law does not limit the contracting parties to two. So would Kmiec permit plural marriage? How many spouses could there be to a particular contract?

Wethal on May 28, 2009 at 10:22 AM

There is a problem with relying on contract law; Our current president is throwing that overboard too. It now means nothing.

Dasher on May 28, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Ouch. And true, too.

Mr. D on May 28, 2009 at 10:22 AM

It’s time to get gov’t out of education, out of entertainment/media (PBS, NPR), out of a lot of things, but leave marriage alone! This is just a scheme to give homosexuals the right to marry.

jgapinoy on May 28, 2009 at 10:24 AM

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

I consider marriage to be a religious establishment.

Where does the collective get off limiting the number of ol’ ladies I can have?

If my religion “Islamomormanism” say’s I can have 8 wives, is it not unconstitutional for the state to interfere?

TheSitRep on May 28, 2009 at 10:24 AM

Contract law does not limit the contracting parties to two. So would Kmiec permit plural marriage? How many spouses could there be to a particular contract?

Wethal on May 28, 2009 at 10:22 AM

Why not? It’s not like we can prevent them from, er in Olson’s words, loving each other… Is there a limit on the number of individuals in a business? If we took George’s argument into account, essentially the family is a specialized business vital to society…

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 10:24 AM

Could also have messy ramifications for property law. There is a special kind of ownership called tenancy by the entireties. It’s how a husband and wife own property. Would that still be possible? (Imagine the property disputes in a divorce). Would everything revert to a joint tenancy?

Of course, property rights probably get as much consideration from Obama’s administration as contract rights.

Wethal on May 28, 2009 at 10:26 AM

Best idea I’ve heard overall. Leave the spiritual component up to the individual couple(as I’m sure you could find people offended by non-Christian marriages, like pagan hand-fastings, etc), and leave the government only with the power to administer the bureaucratic bit.

MadisonConservative on May 28, 2009 at 10:26 AM

Maybe there should be Religious marriages that fall under the purview of a church/god/gods/tortillas and state unions that are legal contracts.

TheSitRep on May 28, 2009 at 10:28 AM

Would the Feds oversee these “civil contracts”, and if so wouldn’t they be interfering in setting contractual standards by which people must abide?

Bishop on May 28, 2009 at 10:29 AM

County trying to stop home bible studies.

http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html

roninacreage on May 28, 2009 at 10:29 AM

Maybe there should be Religious marriages that fall under the purview of a church/god/gods/tortillas and state unions that are legal contracts.

TheSitRep on May 28, 2009 at 10:28 AM

tortillas?

Count to 10 on May 28, 2009 at 10:29 AM

Kmiec makes the false assumption that this is about rights for homosexuals, when in reality, it is about trying to destroy religion, and to replace its many facets with government.

Vashta.Nerada on May 28, 2009 at 10:29 AM

I can think of about 10,000 things the government needs to get out of first, before it gets out of marriage. This is nothing but a capitulation to the gay-”marriage” crowd.

If there is no compelling interest for the state to do what little it does in order to help ensure that one mom and one dad is the normative state of married adults, then it has damn few compelling interests at all.

greggriffith on May 28, 2009 at 10:29 AM

Somebody finally gets it. Turn what we refer to as “marriage” into a contracted civil union. If you want to actually be “married,” go to your church and have your preacher/priest/rabbi/or witch doctor perform whatever ceremoney your religion performs.

Vic on May 28, 2009 at 10:30 AM

Count to 10 on May 28, 2009 at 10:29 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neAIyuE1BAA

TheSitRep on May 28, 2009 at 10:31 AM

I agree. What business does the government have in marriage to begin with?

This is a great example of how government involvement in anything ends up snowballing into a leviathan. Government involvement in marriage first started in the 19th century when they started registering marriages. Note: they also started registering births around the same time.

This then evolved into them getting into licensing. What was once voluntary became MANDATORY as government as usual, demanded it’s “cut” in order to make a marriage legal.

This led to revenue, which led to an explosion of grown in the court bureaucracy as they also got control of divorce.

Marriage should be in the Church. If some heretical church wants to hold a ceremony for sodomites and call them married, so be it, it’s on THEIR conscious when they die and have to face a judge who outranks the supreme court, but it’s not government’s job.

But this all misses the point as to what this push is all about. It’s not about homosexuals having the same rights as everyone else (they already have that), it’s about FORCING everyone to recognize their particular pet sexual deviancy as “normal”.

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:31 AM

The advent of no-fault divorce, in which one party can abrogate the marriage contract without penalty or consideration of the other party, has completely destroyed the notion that the government plays a role in protecting “integrity and well-being of the family.”

No-fault divorce has been harmful, yes. But that doesn’t mean that what existed prior to no-fault divorce was better, Ed. The previous fault-based divorce system produced several social harms, including:

(i) “Loveless marriages” where homes were effectively broken but were legally kept together “for the sake of the kids.” A high-profile example of such a marriage is seen each week on “Jon & Kate Plus 8.” Is that a healthy environment for kids?

(ii) Women were trapped in abusive marriages.

(iii) When couples literally could not stand it anymore and finally had to get divorced, frequently the only way to do it would be to make the husband falsely confess to adultery, since adultery was a “fault” that allowed divorce. That’s a lousy result from both a social perspective and a legal one (since the at-fault party suffered even more prejudice in property settlement and child visitation than what exists under today’s system).

Outlander on May 28, 2009 at 10:34 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neAIyuE1BAA

TheSitRep on May 28, 2009 at 10:31 AM

Huh. So, these people see a Roersh blot that looks like a man with long hair and a beard, and assume it is an image of Jesus? There is probably some serious psychology/sociology in that.

Count to 10 on May 28, 2009 at 10:35 AM

County trying to stop home bible studies.

http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html

roninacreage on May 28, 2009 at 10:29 AM

They are just taking their lead from Dear Leader, who thinks that the Constitution is a “negative rights” document that stifles government action.

And of course a local tyranny run amok. Someone needs to tell those assholes that if “Congress… shall make no law” that means a bunch of dimwits in a county bureaucracy can’t make that law either.

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:36 AM

This is a great example of how government involvement in anything ends up snowballing into a leviathan. Government involvement in marriage first started in the 19th century when they started registering marriages. Note: they also started registering births around the same time.

This then evolved into them getting into licensing. What was once voluntary became MANDATORY as government as usual, demanded it’s “cut” in order to make a marriage legal.

This led to revenue, which led to an explosion of grown in the court bureaucracy as they also got control of divorce.

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:31 AM

That’s silly. Why would the government’s motive in the marriage business be money? Naturally, the government is benevolent, and is interested in family. They also require car licensing so that people drive safely, and gun licenses so that people don’t commit crimes with guns.

Anyone who thinks the government tries to drain the funds of the populace is racist.

MadisonConservative on May 28, 2009 at 10:36 AM

Count to 10 on May 28, 2009 at 10:35 AM

Oops. Hey, look, I can screw up the quote tags too!

Count to 10 on May 28, 2009 at 10:36 AM

Contract law does not limit the contracting parties to two. So would Kmiec permit plural marriage? How many spouses could there be to a particular contract?

Wethal on May 28, 2009 at 10:22 AM
Why not? It’s not like we can prevent them from, er in Olson’s words, loving each other… Is there a limit on the number of individuals in a business? If we took George’s argument into account, essentially the family is a specialized business vital to society…

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 10:24 AM

Imagine the mess if one person wants to divorce the rest. What share of the marital property (if there is such a thing), would that person get? Custody of children only for biological parents?

Job security for lawyers.

Wethal on May 28, 2009 at 10:36 AM

(i) “Loveless marriages” where homes were effectively broken but were legally kept together “for the sake of the kids.” A high-profile example of such a marriage is seen each week on “Jon & Kate Plus 8.” Is that a healthy environment for kids?

(ii) Women were trapped in abusive marriages.

(iii) When couples literally could not stand it anymore and finally had to get divorced, frequently the only way to do it would be to make the husband falsely confess to adultery, since adultery was a “fault” that allowed divorce. That’s a lousy result from both a social perspective and a legal one (since the at-fault party suffered even more prejudice in property settlement and child visitation than what exists under today’s system).

Outlander on May 28, 2009 at 10:34 AM

After long consideration, I am beginning to suspect that these problems are the fault of an incorrect view of marriage, fostered by the idea of a Hollywood Romance, rather than a reason to dissolve a marriage.

Count to 10 on May 28, 2009 at 10:39 AM

Finally someone gets it! Marriage should have never been something government had control of because the Constitution says nothing about it. It’s just another institution that government has looked to control.

CTDeLude on May 28, 2009 at 10:40 AM

Would the Feds oversee these “civil contracts”, and if so wouldn’t they be interfering in setting contractual standards by which people must abide?

Bishop on May 28, 2009 at 10:29 AM

Family law and contract law have traditionally been state law matters. The Uniform Commercial Code (for businesses) has been adopted on a state-by-state basis. But then Kmiec doesn’t think much of tradition.

I could see how the Equal Protection Clause (which is what Olson is going to use in his challenge) could require uniformity in marriage law, given a court heavy with Obama
appointees.

Wethal on May 28, 2009 at 10:41 AM

That’s silly. Why would the government’s motive in the marriage business be money? Naturally, the government is benevolent, and is interested in family. They also require car licensing so that people drive safely, and gun licenses so that people don’t commit crimes with guns.

Anyone who thinks the government tries to drain the funds of the populace is racist.

MadisonConservative on May 28, 2009 at 10:36 AM

I like your sarcasm :)

I think that we, Americans, in many ways are far too law abiding for our own good, we accept illegal regulation and “herding” by the government far too often.

I don’t know why people don’t just get married in the Church, and then draw up a contract to take care of the legal side and not even bother telling the government they are married, it’s really none of their business.

There would actually be advantages to doing this. For example: there is a marriage “tax” penalty for a lot of families vs what they’d pay if they filed individually.

Since having children without having purchased a government marriage license or filing tax returns jointly isn’t illegal, nor is living with someone without purchasing said government license illegal, what’s to stop people from doing this?

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:42 AM

Oh, leave marriage alone for crisakes! It works just fine.

Blake on May 28, 2009 at 10:43 AM

One would have to assume that the rule of law still exists in America. I’m not sure it still does.

SouthernGent on May 28, 2009 at 10:45 AM

It’s time to get gov’t out of education…jgapinoy on May 28, 2009 at 10:24 AM

I couldn’t agree more my friend, but you’re dreaming if you think the liberals/teachers unions would let this powerful institution slip away from their grasp.

Rovin on May 28, 2009 at 10:45 AM

I have often wondered on this issue and have sometimes thought that this idea has merit. George’s compelling dissent is based on the assumption that if the government abandons their involvement in the process and recognition of “marriage”, then marriage and family structure will necessarily cease, or at least begin to disintegrate.

But would it? Does marriage have no institutional momentum after 5,000 years or so? I think it probably does, and I can even see a result wherein (at least Christians) end up with a renewed emphasis on the religious importance of marriage, and on the importance to marriage of religion and the church.

Jaibones on May 28, 2009 at 10:46 AM

It’s time to get gov’t out of education…jgapinoy on May 28, 2009 at 10:24 AM

I couldn’t agree more my friend, but you’re dreaming if you think the liberals/teachers unions would let this powerful institution slip away from their grasp.

Rovin on May 28, 2009 at 10:45 AM

Best way to do it would be to starve it to death.

Quit voting “yes” on all those school tax levies that show up every time on the ballot.

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:46 AM

I haven’t read it all, but I can’t help thinking of the Seinfeld episode in which, all at the same time, George was persecuting a dealership mechanic for stealing George’s Twix bar, Jerry was trying to get the “insider’s deal” from newly promoted auto salesman Putty, and Jerry was trying to get Elaine back together with Putty so that Jerry would get his deal.

Jerry to Elaine and Putty: “What’s it going to take me to put you two in a relationship today?”

BuckeyeSam on May 28, 2009 at 10:47 AM

would this make polygamous contracts legal?

Chiasmos on May 28, 2009 at 10:47 AM

It’s just another institution that government has looked to control.

CTDeLude on May 28, 2009 at 10:40 AM

Is this an offhand opinion, or is your opinion informed by knowledge of the history of government recognition of marriage, especially here in America prior to the revolution?

Jaibones on May 28, 2009 at 10:48 AM

But would it? Does marriage have no institutional momentum after 5,000 years or so? I think it probably does, and I can even see a result wherein (at least Christians) end up with a renewed emphasis on the religious importance of marriage, and on the importance to marriage of religion and the church.

Jaibones on May 28, 2009 at 10:46 AM

There were monogamous marriages before there was even writing and cities, much less governments.

Why? Because it’s NORMAL, it’s NATURAL, and it’s been proven over millennia to be the most efficient way to raise children.

The current controversy exists only because a group of mainly men who prefer to “go” where other men evacuate their bowels want this practice which isn’t normal, isn’t natural, and doesn’t produce or foster children in a stable or sane fashion to be artificially declared normal.

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:50 AM

I am 100% in favor of getting the government out of the marriage business entirely. Everybody, gay and straight, can get a state issued civil union. Go to a church to get married as well, if you want.

Zetterson on May 28, 2009 at 10:51 AM

would this make polygamous contracts legal?

Chiasmos on May 28, 2009 at 10:47 AM

Polygamy actually isn’t illegal if you don’t attempt to be legally married (ie: government licenses obtained) to more than one person.

If having children by more than one woman while married or not married is illegal, then half the NBA would be in jail.

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:52 AM

would this make polygamous contracts legal?

Chiasmos on May 28, 2009 at 10:47 AM

Thats an interesting question. I would suppose so.

Zetterson on May 28, 2009 at 10:53 AM

Imagine the mess if one person wants to divorce the rest. What share of the marital property (if there is such a thing), would that person get? Custody of children only for biological parents?

Job security for lawyers.

Wethal on May 28, 2009 at 10:36 AM

I hear this argument made over and over… In the end, what difference does it make if it would be more complicated? If it protects churches from being forced to recognize gay marriage I’m already for it. However, with your reasoning, we should perhaps prevent divorce, adultery, sex outside of marriage, certain adoption cases… Yes, there are many messes, but this is what a good court system is designed to handle.

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 10:53 AM

Those of you saying marriage is a religious establishment are wrong. What about a husband and wife whose wedding was performed by a Justice of the Peace? No religion involved there. And no civil contract either; except to the extent that the marriage license and existing state and federal laws proscribe.
What happens to these couples in the brave new world? They have neither the religious rite nor the new civil contract. Are they still married?

Furthermore, wouldn’t these contracts have potential to be customized thereby granting (or revoking) individual rights and subverting existing divorce processes? (i.e. SHARIA)

kooly on May 28, 2009 at 10:53 AM

One would have to assume that the rule of law still exists in America. I’m not sure it still does.

SouthernGent on May 28, 2009 at 10:45 AM

SG, your sense of lawlessness will be sharpened by a drive into Chicago northbound on Stony Island Avenue from the Bishop Ford Freeway exit at 103rd Street. If you make said drive on a Friday night after dark, you may be overcome by a sense of what it must be like in Medellin on a busy night.

Jaibones on May 28, 2009 at 10:53 AM

If having children by more than one woman while married or not married is illegal, then half the NBA would be in jail.

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:52 AM

Heh.

Jaibones on May 28, 2009 at 10:55 AM

Who writes the specifics of the contract? Is there to be a vote on the particulars before it is deemed “The” marriage contract, binding to all?

Itchee Dryback on May 28, 2009 at 10:55 AM

SouthernGent on May 28, 2009 at 10:45 AM

SG, your sense of lawlessness will be sharpened by a drive into Chicago northbound on Stony Island Avenue from the Bishop Ford Freeway exit at 103rd Street. If you make said drive on a Friday night after dark, you may be overcome by a sense of what it must be like in Medellin on a busy night.

Jaibones on May 28, 2009 at 10:53 AM

You can say that about pretty much any sizable US city that has a significant welfare or other government assistance dependent population.

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:56 AM

Itchee Dryback on May 28, 2009 at 10:55 AM

Couldn’t the marriage contract be suited for the individual parties… Different business contracts differ in what is included in the contract.

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 10:57 AM

You can say that about pretty much any sizable US city that has a significant welfare or other government assistance dependent population.

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:56 AM

i.e. anywhere Obama wins the vote in a landslide… ;)

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 10:57 AM

Who writes the specifics of the contract? Is there to be a vote on the particulars before it is deemed “The” marriage contract, binding to all?

Itchee Dryback on May 28, 2009 at 10:55 AM

I think thats the point. It wouldn’t be a marriage contract. It would be a civil license contract. Marriage would be seperate.

Zetterson on May 28, 2009 at 10:58 AM

I’ve heard this argument before, and it’s not unreasonable. But I think it is shortsighted.

Pros:
(1) It would safeguard the rights of gays to bequeathe their property to whomever they want, have visitation rights, etc.
(2) It would safeguard religious institutions (and parents) from persecution due to the consistent teaching that gay sexual unions are not marriages.


Cons:

- would eliminate marriage as a civil institution, safeguarded and honoured by the state for the purpose of fostering mother-father based families.
Consequence 1: a decline of such families
Consequence 2: a decline of healthy and well-adjusted youngsters since the mother-father based family is nature’s intended approach to child-rearing.
Consequence 3: large-scale societal breakdown due to messed-up kids growing up into messed-up adults.
Consequence 4: end of the nation, replaced by another with stronger families.

The Nays have it.

Alternately, we could try this experiment on the off-chance that it works for the first time in recorded history. Quite a gamble, and for what?

Gaunilon on May 28, 2009 at 10:59 AM

this practice which isn’t normal, isn’t natural, and doesn’t produce or foster children in a stable or sane fashion to be artificially declared normal.

I have no doubt that the conflict between that which we all know to be good and right and that which we wish to do in our darker moments (perversion of every kind) is what drives these movements. The age old conflict between the girl we want to go out with on Friday and the girl we want to bring home to Mom’s Sunday dinner.

(I don’t claim to have any insight into what makes a man want to have sex with other men, and yet this is not exactly a new thing.)

Jaibones on May 28, 2009 at 11:00 AM

The current controversy exists only because a group of mainly men who prefer to “go” where other men evacuate their bowels want this practice which isn’t normal, isn’t natural, and doesn’t produce or foster children in a stable or sane fashion to be artificially declared normal.

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:50 AM

Actually, I’d like to see some statistics on this: my suspicion is that more female homosexuals are looking to marry each other than male homosexuals.

Count to 10 on May 28, 2009 at 11:00 AM

I think thats the point. It wouldn’t be a marriage contract. It would be a civil license contract. Marriage would be seperate.

Zetterson on May 28, 2009 at 10:58 AM

True… my bad above.

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:00 AM

The idea that reducing marriage to the enforcement of a contract somehow gets the government out of the marriage is patent nonsense. Putting marriage under contract law will increase the role of government in marriage and family life by opening up the process to a much wider range of legal procedures enforced by the Government.

Getting government out of the marriage business is a code word for abolishing marriage and family.

jerryofva on May 28, 2009 at 11:00 AM

The reason marriage is recognized by society and the government is because it represent a clean, simple, human-history long recognized arrangement whereby two become one. A UNION where each acts on behalf of the other for their mutual betterment. They are recognized to hold each others interests above their own (that what many fail to realize. Marriage is not a benefit. It is a sacrifice. A sacrifice where you put the interest of your spouse and family ahead of your own.) To simply now say government should not recognize a natural law is to punt because it’s too hard to satisfy everybody today. So you take the coward’s way out, take your ball and go home. I’ve had enough cowardice in the last ten years to last a lifetime.

TheBigOldDog on May 28, 2009 at 11:00 AM

I agree with Morissey’s second point though: this problem began well before gay marriage. It began with no-fault divorce.
That was the point at which marriage first started to crumble, and if we want it safeguarded we are going to have to take the responsibility of making “until death do us part” be more than just words.

Gaunilon on May 28, 2009 at 11:02 AM

This is a fine idea as long as it is a actual change to contract law and not just dumping the word marriage.

For instance:
1.Barring a violation of civil rights any clause in this contract should be valid and enforced.
2. Any number or combination of people? Fine
3. Set time limit? Fine
4. Suing partner for fraud and negligence? Fine
5. Uneven distribution of assets? Fine

So this means:
1. Churches can be designated to administer and dissolve marriages legally such as in Shari’a Law.
2. Polygamy and inter family marriage is fine.
3. Prostitution legal.
4. No fault divorces gone. Forcing a father to support a child he can show isn’t his also gone. Suing mother for fraud if she knew this to be true would be fine.
5. Community property gone.

This is just the start of this.

Rocks on May 28, 2009 at 11:02 AM

hear this argument made over and over… In the end, what difference does it make if it would be more complicated? If it protects churches from being forced to recognize gay marriage I’m already for it. However, with your reasoning, we should perhaps prevent divorce, adultery, sex outside of marriage, certain adoption cases… Yes, there are many messes, but this is what a good court system is designed to handle.

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 10:53 AM

I am a lawyer. Should have used the sarc off/ signal.

“Job security for lawyers” is said with a smile by the profession.

Wethal on May 28, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Cons:
- would eliminate marriage as a civil institution, safeguarded and honoured by the state for the purpose of fostering mother-father based families.
Consequence 1: a decline of such families
Consequence 2: a decline of healthy and well-adjusted youngsters since the mother-father based family is nature’s intended approach to child-rearing.
Consequence 3: large-scale societal breakdown due to messed-up kids growing up into messed-up adults.
Consequence 4: end of the nation, replaced by another with stronger families.

The Nays have it.

Alternately, we could try this experiment on the off-chance that it works for the first time in recorded history. Quite a gamble, and for what?

Gaunilon on May 28, 2009 at 10:59 AM

So what happened before the state got involved with marriage? The state didn’t start getting heavily involved in marriage until the Progressive Era of the 1920’s.

I believe this so called experiment has been performed long before the United States was even a country… Marriage managed to survive long enough for us to regulate it, apparently.

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:04 AM

I am a lawyer. Should have used the sarc off/ signal.

“Job security for lawyers” is said with a smile by the profession.

Wethal on May 28, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Fair enough. Further, if you did manage to benefit from this, I don’t think it would be a bad thing. If we want a law, we need lawyers, right?

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:05 AM

Hey we are in the process of dynamiting our economic system, why not blow the whole ball of wax apart? Might as well. Worked out so well for the Romans.

TheBigOldDog on May 28, 2009 at 11:06 AM

Abandoning civil marriage really would destroy marriage. Religious institutions don’t have the authority or influence anymore to promote marriage in any meaningful way. Here’s a better solution than Kmiec’s “I’m taking my ball and going home”: keep civil marriage, share it with gays.

RightOFLeft on May 28, 2009 at 11:06 AM

(I don’t claim to have any insight into what makes a man want to have sex with other men, and yet this is not exactly a new thing.)

Jaibones on May 28, 2009 at 11:00 AM

Its not really mysterious — it is the same thing that makes some men want to look at porn or have sex in general. They simply have focused on a different object of arousal. You could learn to do it, to, with a bit of practice (the reverse of which, they could also do). None of this has any baring on whether a given activity is right or even healthy.

Count to 10 on May 28, 2009 at 11:06 AM

Why would the government’s motive in the marriage business be money? Naturally, the government is benevolent, and is interested in family. ***
MadisonConservative on May 28, 2009 at 10:36 AM

A marriage license is less than $100. Not a big deal. The governmental cash cow is the divorce and child custody system. It employs lots of judges, court clerks, prosecutors, entire governmental departments charged with collecting child support, and it’s all paid for by the divorcing parties and the taxpayers.

In all seriousness, registration of marriage makes sense because marriage has important legal consequences in probate, taxes, health care, and other matters. The real problem here is the abuse of equal protection principles in the 14th amendment to make radical changes to social policy.

Replacing marriage with a civil union will, frankly, do much more harm to the social institution of marriage than will gay marriage. The country is already becoming more secular. Take away the government recognition, and you empty the institution of marriage of even more meaning. It’ll just result in less and less people getting married.

Outlander on May 28, 2009 at 11:07 AM

Polygamy actually isn’t illegal if you don’t attempt to be legally married (ie: government licenses obtained) to more than one person.

If having children by more than one woman while married or not married is illegal, then half the NBA would be in jail.

wildcat84 on May 28, 2009 at 10:52 AM

That kind of polygamy is already practiced in the US by immigrants from Africa and other areas of the world. A few years ago there was a terrible fire in NYCity, and several children died. Came out the father had one legal wife and another one he married by tribal ritual, and about a dozen children, all living in the same house.

Muslims do the same thing in Britain. Marry one legally, and then bring in the others for a ritual marriage. The law does not discriminate against legitimate and illegitimate children. The extra wives do not have the legal status of the first wife, though.

Wethal on May 28, 2009 at 11:08 AM

I agree with Morissey’s second point though: this problem began well before gay marriage. It began with no-fault divorce.
That was the point at which marriage first started to crumble, and if we want it safeguarded we are going to have to take the responsibility of making “until death do us part” be more than just words.

Gaunilon on May 28, 2009 at 11:02 AM

So if the government taxes condoms they are somehow involved in sex?

There is a difference between a civil contract that the government would issue and the government specifically defining marriage. No, the government would not be completely “out of marriage,” but then again, I suppose they wouldn’t be completely out of anything that they may make money off of (via taxing).

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:09 AM

Any arguement which starts with “its in the Government’s interest to” is an automatic loser with me.

Government don’t have interests! They have obligations and limitations.

This very arguement speaks as if a Gov is alive, and should be able to tell its citizens what to do, based on ITS needs, not the needs of its citizens.

I’ve liked the idea of making this contract law for quite some time… its workable IMO.

Romeo13 on May 28, 2009 at 11:09 AM

The reason marriage is recognized by society and the government is because it represent a clean, simple, human-history long recognized arrangement whereby two become one. A UNION where each acts on behalf of the other for their mutual betterment. They are recognized to hold each others interests above their own (that what many fail to realize. Marriage is not a benefit. It is a sacrifice. A sacrifice where you put the interest of your spouse and family ahead of your own.) To simply now say government should not recognize a natural law is to punt because it’s too hard to satisfy everybody today. So you take the coward’s way out, take your ball and go home. I’ve had enough cowardice in the last ten years to last a lifetime.

TheBigOldDog on May 28, 2009 at 11:00 AM

But TheBigOldDog, marriage would still exist as it is. All of what you mentioned would still be true. It would just be a two step process once its seperated from the state. A couple would go to the church to get married and then walk down to city hall to get their state recognizing civil union stamped document. Makes sense to me.

Zetterson on May 28, 2009 at 11:10 AM

I guess this is what they meant when they said the real goal of homosexual marriage was to destroy marriage. Will the Government now honor poligamous “contracts”? Does America owe the Mormons of yesteryear an apology? Where’s our apologizer-in-chief?

rhombus on May 28, 2009 at 11:11 AM

Rely on contract law instead.

Contract law is so yesterday. Just ask Chrysler’s bond holders.

Johan Klaus on May 28, 2009 at 11:11 AM

Abandoning civil marriage really would destroy marriage. Religious institutions don’t have the authority or influence anymore to promote marriage in any meaningful way. Here’s a better solution than Kmiec’s “I’m taking my ball and going home”: keep civil marriage, share it with gays.

RightOFLeft on May 28, 2009 at 11:06 AM

With this type of reasoning, we will continue ceding more and more of our liberty to the government… Eventually we will have people saying…

Religious institutions Constitutionalists don’t have the authority or influence anymore to promote marriage the Constitution in any meaningful way.

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:11 AM

The question I have is, why would I even want such a civil contract? Get government out of the marriage business, but don’t expect me to sign up for whatever “civil arrangement” takes its place in the law.

evergreen on May 28, 2009 at 11:12 AM

Fair enough. Further, if you did manage to benefit from this, I don’t think it would be a bad thing. If we want a law, we need lawyers, right?

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:05 AM

I don’t do domestic relations law. Wouldn’t benefit.

Any time there is a change in the law (tax law being the most common), the joke is “job security.”

On the necessity of lawyers, well, there is Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 2 statement by Dick the Butcher, “The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers”….

Wethal on May 28, 2009 at 11:12 AM

Funny thing is that I don’t recall any passages in my Bible that say anything about a marriage needing the government’s approval.

Putting government into the equation in the first place was a horrible mistake. Get it out and we no longer have to worry about these questions. Christian marriages will be a man and a woman giving an oath to God and becoming one flesh.

Everyone else can do as they wish as they won’t be in christian marriages. Their unions will be recognized by the government.

Benaiah on May 28, 2009 at 11:12 AM

I’m used to agreeing with Ed, but… Kmiec likes this idea too? Eww. I need to go take a shower.

Been saying this for a couple of years now.

Red Cloud on May 28, 2009 at 11:15 AM

But TheBigOldDog, marriage would still exist as it is. All of what you mentioned would still be true. It would just be a two step process once its seperated from the state. A couple would go to the church to get married and then walk down to city hall to get their state recognizing civil union stamped document. Makes sense to me.

Zetterson on May 28, 2009 at 11:10 AM

This is how it works now. What are you proposing to change?

evergreen on May 28, 2009 at 11:16 AM

The only reason government got into the marriage business at all was to prevent blacks and whites from marrying. That’s the only reason one currently has to beg the state for a “license.” There’s absolutely no need for it anymore.

CTD on May 28, 2009 at 11:16 AM

I’m used to agreeing with Ed, but… Kmiec likes this idea too? Eww. I need to go take a shower.

Been saying this for a couple of years now.

Red Cloud on May 28, 2009 at 11:15 AM

When Obama comes out and agrees with Kmiec, that’s when I’ll need to take a shower…

But then again, I can’t see Barry not resisting the urge to use government to give his voting bloc more rights than the rest of us…

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:17 AM

The only reason government got into the marriage business at all was to prevent blacks and whites from marrying. That’s the only reason one currently has to beg the state for a “license.” There’s absolutely no need for it anymore.

CTD on May 28, 2009 at 11:16 AM

You are right… Someone is going to get on here and talk about how this is needed for Incest and all, but you are right. The Progressives in particular didn’t want mixing of races OR mixing of genetic classes.

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:18 AM

With this type of reasoning, we will continue ceding more and more of our liberty to the government… Eventually we will have people saying…

Religious institutions Constitutionalists don’t have the authority or influence anymore to promote marriage the Constitution in any meaningful way.
Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:11 AM

The two are completely unrelated.

RightOFLeft on May 28, 2009 at 11:19 AM

Benaiah on May 28, 2009 at 11:12 AM

Exactly, the only reason I can fathom any person finding fault with this proposal is if they misunderstand it. It strikes me as a win win for everybody.

Zetterson on May 28, 2009 at 11:20 AM

The two are completely unrelated.

RightOFLeft on May 28, 2009 at 11:19 AM

The reasoning isn’t.

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:20 AM

Well if you do this, then get ready for the court battle. There will be a battle over who gets to claim the mantle of “marriage”. The church will say only those married in church by an ordained priest can claim they are married. The homosexual community has wanted ownership for a while, not just becoming welcomed but ownership. The court battles will be whether the church can claim exclusivity to the name “marriage”. This fight was never about “civil rights”, it was about the church.

In the end, the homosexual community wins.

broker1 on May 28, 2009 at 11:21 AM

It strikes me as a win win for everybody.

Zetterson on May 28, 2009 at 11:20 AM

This is not a win to certain fascist SSM groups… There is a reason they haven’t been promoting this; however, if this was our official platform, I don’t see how they (fascists SSM groups) could even attempt a logical argument against it.

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:22 AM

The advent of no-fault divorce, in which one party can abrogate the marriage contract without penalty or consideration of the other party, has completely destroyed the notion that the government plays a role in protecting “integrity and well-being of the family.” In fact, I’d argue that serial marriers of the kind seen in Hollywood (or in Washington DC) do more to undermine marriage than single-gender unions would ever do.

No-fault divorce was and is a terrible idea, which has done a great disservice to marriage in general, and especially children who have grown up in broken homes. It’s in the best interest of society that children be raised in stable homes. The rate of crime, drug and other addictions, and dropping out of high school of children raised in single parent homes shows just how serious a problem this is.
Redesigning marriage to include single sex unions is a dangerous experiment, untried in all of human history, that puts children into the roll of lab rat, in the pursuit of the desires of a small minority of the population. In states where it has been legalized parents who don’t want to have their children indoctrinated into the homosexual agenda have had their rights to prevent this trampled on.

Mulligan on May 28, 2009 at 11:22 AM

IANAL, but since it’s more often than not the power of state (or the threat thereof) that enforces contracts, how does defining marriage as such “get government out of the marriage business”?

Hesiodos on May 28, 2009 at 11:22 AM

Well if you do this, then get ready for the court battle. There will be a battle over who gets to claim the mantle of “marriage”. The church will say only those married in church by an ordained priest can claim they are married. The homosexual community has wanted ownership for a while, not just becoming welcomed but ownership. The court battles will be whether the church can claim exclusivity to the name “marriage”. This fight was never about “civil rights”, it was about the church.

In the end, the homosexual community wins.

broker1 on May 28, 2009 at 11:21 AM

The whole point would be that each individual could decide what they want to call their “Marriage” Civil Union.

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:23 AM

My question for those who think this is a great idea is this: How do you prevent abuse?

Sharia marriages are perfectly legal under this brave new “contract” view of marriage. Slave contracts too. How’s about a “civil contract” that says indentures people?

Marriage is a shorthand for a bundle of rights, duties and expectations–both legal and otherwise. Destroy that and then you get contracts modifying each of these–Woman agrees under her contract to be sexually abused or something and what can society do to stop it?

The only way is to get the Government even MORE involved. No thanks.

Vanceone on May 28, 2009 at 11:23 AM

The question I have is, why would I even want such a civil contract? Get government out of the marriage business, but don’t expect me to sign up for whatever “civil arrangement” takes its place in the law.

evergreen on May 28, 2009 at 11:12 AM

This is the whole problem in a nutshell. States co-opted marriage in order to protect women and children to begin with. If women think men are commitment phobic now wait till they try to get them to commit when it involves a lawyer both ending AND entering into a marriage.

Men will simply go back to what we had before which was no civil license and a church wedding. Since the wedding is meaningless under law it will have no legal effect on how he conducts his personal life and his property. He will be on the hook for child support but that’s about it. Any property with his name on it couldn’t be legally taken from him as the government would no longer recognize a wedding.

Rocks on May 28, 2009 at 11:24 AM

The reasoning isn’t.

Upstater85 on May 28, 2009 at 11:20 AM

I’m not following you. By arguing that the government is in a better position than the church(es) to offer marriage benefits, I can’t argue that the constitution is worth defending?

RightOFLeft on May 28, 2009 at 11:24 AM

This is how it works now. What are you proposing to change?

evergreen on May 28, 2009 at 11:16 AM

No its not how it works now. Now you have a ceremony at the church and then go to the government office to get your marriage certificate.

Zetterson on May 28, 2009 at 11:25 AM

Right, because making the problem go away so that government officials and politicians no longer have to deal with it is obviously the best solution. They don’t want to do anything that’s hard so we’ll just remove the problem from their already overwhelmed plates.

Government has to stay in the “marriage business” in order for the state and its people to survive. You intellectuals are over-thinking this, as usual, and living in your ridiculous hypothetical world.

I expect crap like this from stupid liberals, but conservatives are supposed to see through the lies, read between the lines, and be wise and discerning.

I guess you all just want to be the next GOP mouthpieces after you so wisely and skillfully guide it to a new, more timely, worldview.

thebadoutlaw on May 28, 2009 at 11:25 AM

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