Video: Canadian warns Americans about health-care reform
posted at 1:25 pm on May 27, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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In fact, some people wonder whether picking a contentious choice like Sonia Sotomayor for the Supreme Court doesn’t have more to do with distracting Republicans during the summer, when Barack Obama intends to push hard for his overhaul of the nation’s health-care system. James Pethokoukis thinks that the Right may have given that up already:
Just take a look at the 248-page Patients Choice Act, a comprehensive GOP healthcare reform plan drafted by Senators Tom Coburn and Richard Burr, and Representatives Paul Ryan and Devin Nunes.
A big feature of the plan calls for redirecting the $300 billion-a-year tax exclusion for employer-based health benefits into refundable tax credits to purchase private plans.
Low-income families would be subsidized so they could also buy private health insurance. The theory here is that people act more like cost-conscious consumers when they have to select and purchase their own health insurance rather than pay premiums indirectly through their employers via lower wages.
While the bill doesn’t stand a chance of passage with the Obamacrats in charge, it does reflect a recognition by congressional Republicans that if they are to derail or significantly modify Democratic healthcare efforts, they need a positive and serious policy rejoinder of their own. …
But is the bill really a choice rather than an echo? The indisputable conservative credentials of Coburn, Burr, Ryan and Nunes have not prevented some free marketeers from scowling and some liberal policy wonks from cackling after taking a look at the legislation.
Michael Tanner, a healthcare expert at the libertarian Cato Institute immediately tagged the plan “Obamacare Lite” and claimed it would “increase regulation, mandates and government control over the healthcare system.”
We’ll talk more with James on today’s TEMS episode about the health-care debate. The Wall Street Journal reports that even if Republicans seem to be edging towards Democrats in Congress, the conservative activists plan to fight hard on this ground:
Conservative groups are stepping up the battle against Democrats’ proposed health-system overhaul with advertising campaigns contending that the changes could result in long waits for surgery and difficulty obtaining prescription drugs.
Americans for Prosperity Foundation, a conservative advocacy organization, on Wednesday plans to launch a $1.7 million television-advertising campaign that negatively likens the U.S. health-care system envisioned by lawmakers to Canada’s publicly administered system.
Another group, Conservatives for Patients’ Rights, which opposes a government-run health system, plans to begin airing 30-minute segments on Sunday featuring unpaid commentary by patients and doctors from Canada and the United Kingdom detailing what they describe as failings in their health-care systems. The U.K. system is run by the government.
The conservative groups’ campaigns seek to liken the Democrats’ proposed system to those in countries where the government has more involvement in the health system. Many experts don’t believe such systems offer worse care than the current U.S. system, which is based largely on private plans and coverage.
APF has a new ad out today, with Canadian brain-tumor survivor Shona Holmes describing how the American health-care system saved her life — after the Canadian system did its best to kill her through delays:
“We certainly need health care reform, but we need reform that will protect the rights of patients, not trample all over them,” said Tim Phillips, president of Americans for Prosperity Foundation. “Instead of pushing policies that will replace private health care with a Washington-run, nationalized health care system, we should promote reforms that will ensure patients have the freedom to make decisions about their doctors and treatments. We need more options, not fewer options, to help everyone struggling with health costs.”
The Shona ad (view here) will be running in eight states (IN, AR, MT, NE, VA, LA, AK, and SD) for one week. The ad and the grassroots events are all part of the first phase of a multi-million dollar initiative to educate the public about the risks of government-run health care and the prospects for more sensible policies that protects the rights of patients and expands choices of both treatments and doctors. Americans for Prosperity Foundation has spent more than $2 million on the initiative thus far.
The ad and the events also encourage Americans to go to www.PatientsUnitedNow.com to stand with other patients, united to put their voices first in any discussion of health care reform.
We don’t need the kind of reform that puts government more in charge of our health care than it already is, whether those plans come from Republicans or Democrats. The experience of Medicare and the VA should disabuse anyone that an American single-payer system would work better than the one in Canada or in “England,” as Barack Obama referred to it last March.
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Socialized Medicine isn’t about saving lives. It’s about saving money. The ironic bit is, it will cost more of both.
Tommy_G on May 27, 2009 at 1:28 PM
This is about saving the economy. We need nationalized health-care so American citizens in Shona Holmes situation are not treated. Their early demised will save health care costs and reduce the SocSec and MEdicare liabilities on the younger generation.
WashJeff on May 27, 2009 at 1:32 PM
A couple of weeks ago I saw a MoveOn.org ad on health care. They had a couple of actors playing funeral home workers who were complaining about Obama care. Seems so many people were living, that funeral homes around the country were going out of business.
The Republicans need to strike back and start getting the truth out.
MarkTheGreat on May 27, 2009 at 1:33 PM
I now have a permanently damaged ulnar nerve in my left hand because it took almost 12 months to get the surgery to release the entrapment. In that time, too much degradation took place that was irreversible. Took me 3 months to see the first specialist and the process before seeing a surgeon involved making appointments with 3 specialists.
But each appointment was free. Not a bad price to pay for a damaged hand.
keep the change on May 27, 2009 at 1:34 PM
How is AARP coming down on this issue? The UK and Canadian systems have been making some ominous noise regarding care for the elderly, so I wonder if they’ve began to have second thoughts.
DFCtomm on May 27, 2009 at 1:34 PM
What could go wrong……..?
Seven Percent Solution on May 27, 2009 at 1:35 PM
Canada has nationalized health care, and when Canadians need treatment, them come to the United States.
When we have nationalized health care and we need treatment, where will we go? Mexico?
Attila (Pillage Idiot) on May 27, 2009 at 1:36 PM
Back alley clinics.
WashJeff on May 27, 2009 at 1:38 PM
Uh, no. One, most employers offer several plans that their employees can choose from. The last thing I want is tax credits so I can have another crappy item I have to deal with every April 15th. Two, I don’t want to pay out of my own pocket when I can go through my employer at a reduced wage. It’s easier. I think the people who write these proposals have no experience in the real world.
Again, I can’ believe Americans are going to agree to pay more for crappy rationed healthcare just so some moob down the street gets health coverage. We all think that people should get healthcare, but not at the expense of our own healthcare. That’s nuts.
Blake on May 27, 2009 at 1:38 PM
What’s worse about the Canadian system, is not only is the service government provided, but it is illegal to use your own money to get better or faster service within the country. They consider that a bribe.
keep the change on May 27, 2009 at 1:39 PM
The AARP is pretty lefty.
Blake on May 27, 2009 at 1:40 PM
Sorry to hear that. You have summed it up perfectly.
Blake on May 27, 2009 at 1:42 PM
Might be simplier for Obama to send patients to Canada!
And yes,I’m being very sarcastic!
canopfor on May 27, 2009 at 1:42 PM
Sorry, Mexico has nationalized health care as well. Wealthy Mexicans have been coming to the US for health care for years.
MarkTheGreat on May 27, 2009 at 1:42 PM
For those who think government health care is free, just to remind you we pay more than 50% of our income to cover the cost of the system in Canada. Even worse, many can’t even find family doctors and have to wait a long time for life threatening treatments if they are even available. That’s why my family buys additional private insurance to bypass the system, and add that to the 50+% tax we already have to pay. :(
poxoma on May 27, 2009 at 1:43 PM
“It’s your care. Don’t give up your rights.”
‘The don’t give up your rights’ needs to be hammered into the minds of the masses.
- The Cat
MirCat on May 27, 2009 at 1:43 PM
dingdingdingding…prize for “thinking like Saul” goes to Ed!
LEBA on May 27, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Are there still doctors who will see private patients?
Can you buy pvt health insurance? A canadian woman told me she saw the doctor sooner because she also had pvt insurance but she is also a commie and therefore a liar.
I read that in the UK if you were receiving cancer treatment and then started taking a drug that the NHS would not pay for, they would no longer pay for your Cancer treatment.
Blake on May 27, 2009 at 1:45 PM
Just ignore all the warnings regarding the looming disaster coming to our healthcare… Obama knows best.
Don’t think so? Well then, he’ll MAKE you believe.
Yakko77 on May 27, 2009 at 1:45 PM
AARP is all about AARP. They endorsed Obama and are way far left.
Is Harry Belafonte, another Sean Penn radical, still their spokesman?
Knucklehead on May 27, 2009 at 1:45 PM
Sounds like another excuse to roll over for the donks. Believe it or not, conservatives can do two tasks at the same time.
Blake on May 27, 2009 at 1:46 PM
LOL. And said with such a straight face, too. Ha ha.
samuelrylander on May 27, 2009 at 1:47 PM
…but vigilance to the tactic is key. While we are able to multitask, the Alinsky theory relies on this method (of loud distraction to prevent attention toward the real or ultimate goal)for a reason. It works enough of the time to distract enough of the people to allow ‘progress’ toward the goal…
LEBA on May 27, 2009 at 1:50 PM
AARP is all for it. I found this out after I joined (for the discounts) unfortunately. They are a totally political organization and really don’t care about what’s best for it’s members. If it’s a left wing cause, they’re for it.
After reading the tripe in their newsletter, I’ve already sent them a letter telling them not to look for my renewal check and that they are doing their membership a terrible dis-service by promoting national health care particularly when the older population will become “expendable” under Maobama’s health plan.
AZ_Mike on May 27, 2009 at 1:50 PM
Steven Crowder said it best: “Drugs are awesome… It’s the socialized healthcare that sucks.”
ScottMcC on May 27, 2009 at 1:53 PM
They chose their states well–8 states with 11 relatively moderate Democrat Senators: Bayh (IN), Pryor and Lincoln (AR), Baucus and Tester (MT), Ben Nelson (NE), Warner and Webb (VA), Landrieu (LA), Begich (AK), and Johnson (SD).
As for a GOP proposal, they need to connect it with caps on malpractice awards, and enable people to buy health care insurance across state lines, which will increase competition in the health-care insurance market, and drive down prices.
Steve Z on May 27, 2009 at 1:54 PM
Want to make health care more affordable? Quit giving it to illegal aliens, all the deadbeats who use the emergency room as a family physician and all those who don’t pay and have the costs passed on to the people who actually do pay their bills.
TrickyDick on May 27, 2009 at 1:58 PM
Hasty generalization is a fallacy. Just because one nationalized health care system has one horror story (or even thousands of horror stories) doesn’t mean nationalized health care is automatically bad. I hate these dishonest debates; there are plenty of logically valid arguments against more government involvement in medicine (cost and innovation, for example), but this is about as honest as Michael Moore going to Cuba. I cannot picture a U.S. health care system that would deny approved treatment to someone willing to pay for it; we’ll never join Canada, North Korea, and Cuba as being one of the most restrictive health care systems in the world.
calbear on May 27, 2009 at 1:59 PM
The Canadians are making noise because they don’t want to lose the healthcare they come to the states for. When I was on vacation in March, I met dozens of Canadians who own property down in Florida.
They don’t just go down to Florida to get out of the cold weather, they’re here for our healthcare. I would love to know how many Canadians are doing this.
Knucklehead on May 27, 2009 at 2:01 PM
Its really disturbing to see teh Republicans run from a principled fight on this and other entitlements. We’re destroying our economy with these things, now would be a great time to roll out opposition. Its real simple
“Dear America, we’re broke. We can’t spend anymore without destroying your future, your kids future, and their kids future. So we’re gonna save the future and take the pain now.”
Not one Republican will argue that.
Iblis on May 27, 2009 at 2:01 PM
Despite the exaggerations from the usual suspects, the truth is that Canadians are happy with their health care system:
starfleet_dude on May 27, 2009 at 2:02 PM
On the other hand, where do a million Californians go for health care?
starfleet_dude on May 27, 2009 at 2:06 PM
Steve Crowder
ScottMcC on May 27,2009 at 1:53PM.
ScottMcC: Thanks for that video,”Soviet Canada”,lol:)
canopfor on May 27, 2009 at 2:07 PM
Hey, man, that “data” cited in the article you link to is over 10 years old.
Got any more recent findings?
Del Dolemonte on May 27, 2009 at 2:09 PM
I lived in Great Falls MT for 3 years in the 80’s. Even then I met many Canadians who traveled from all over Alberta Canada to receive timely medical care in that small town. Since then, Canadians’ medical care has only worsened. I would think both MT senators would know enough to not support Obamacare even though they are Dems.
How did I meet all these Canadians? Every time I went shopping or was at a restaurant and my voice was overheard, they had to engage me in conversation because they claimed to be fascinated by a Texas drawl. After all, they didn’t think their voices and speech patterns were distinctly different from the US residents, eh?
Oleta on May 27, 2009 at 2:11 PM
Great! I guess you’re moving north then?
DarkCurrent on May 27, 2009 at 2:13 PM
Will you take 9 years and 8 months?
LibTired on May 27, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Del Dolemonte, I’ll take belated real data over the health care anecdote of the week any day.
starfleet_dude on May 27, 2009 at 2:21 PM
Starfleet, have you not read of all the recent high risk pregnant women who are sent to the US because Canada does not have the necessary medical tools nor specialists to provide the care at home?
Oleta on May 27, 2009 at 2:24 PM
People cross the border to Mexico to by drugs that are controlled here by law. They sell them in the pharmacy without prescriptions. Or, the pharmacy direct you to a doctor who will write a script for a nomimal fee.
Blake on May 27, 2009 at 2:27 PM
There was a touch of gentle irony in my question.
Attila (Pillage Idiot) on May 27, 2009 at 2:28 PM
What about Panama? I heard from Frommer’s travel that they’ve got a brand-spankin’ new Johns Hopkins hospital.
It is shocking that anyone who’s ever set food in a post office or a DMV office can possibly think government-controlled health care would be a good thing. Are there no sane people left?
emailnuevo on May 27, 2009 at 2:40 PM
Canada’s system is not one to emulate. There is no private health care, just public. A better example would be the European models.
The American government puts in more per capita for public care than we do already. Reforming it shouldn’t be such a big issue.
The other thing to ponder? If you can’t get surgery because of a wait list or you can’t afford surgery because you don’t have health insurance, the end result is the same.
Krydor on May 27, 2009 at 2:45 PM
So people who don’t want to pay flock to inferior doctors because they are either cheaper or “free”. So what? How’s that working out for Mexico? Are you suggesting their system is superior in quality that the US system? Perhaps you believe that the Mexican government is a shining example of economic growth and stability?
The Canadians that come here do so because their government has decided FOR THEM AND FOR THEIR CAREGIVERS that they are expendable. That is what the government does with everything it controls. It allows no competition and produces and inferior product.
In the end, in the case of health care, they will decide who is worthy to live and who is simply a “burden to the state.”
mankai on May 27, 2009 at 2:47 PM
Canadia has the wrong angle. They should brag and talk it up so we can have what they have. As soon as we have it the 20% of the docs they lost to us will shag back up there. Obamacare will result in the exodus of Canadian docs.
seven on May 27, 2009 at 2:50 PM
The only Canadians I have ever met (and I have met plenty) who “love” the Canadian healthcare sysytem are young and healthy individuals.
They have rarely ever had to make use of the system for anything serious.
If they lived in the US, they would be uninsured by choice because they don’t “need” healthcare coverage.
myrenovations on May 27, 2009 at 2:51 PM
No, you can only buy insurance for the things that are not covered under the government plan, such as eyeglasses, medication, and dental, which I pay out of my pocket. So I have the worst of both worlds. Being self-employed I pay for these things, just paid $1500 for an abscessed tooth, and I still have to put up with “free” medical care.
There is no way of using your money to get better medical service. IF there was, that would undermine the socialist system of making everyone suffer, so they can’t abide that.
keep the change on May 27, 2009 at 2:53 PM
US dollars (currently) go a long way in Mexico because Mexico is such a mess. So what? Americans buy beachfront property in places like Mexico and the DR because it’s CHEAP. Does that prove that the government system in the DR is superior to the US system? Nope. It only proves that the economy of the DR sucks and housing is cheap.
Americans go to Mexico TO PAY LESS for questionable care (care they could in the US)
Canadians come to the US TO PAY MORE to get any care at all.
mankai on May 27, 2009 at 2:54 PM
Not to mention, $1400 for medication per year, also out of my pocket.
keep the change on May 27, 2009 at 2:54 PM
I cannot picture a U.S. health care system that would deny approved treatment to someone willing to pay for it; we’ll never join Canada, North Korea, and Cuba as being one of the most restrictive health care systems in the world.
calbear
What you can or cannot “picture” is irrelevant. Take a look at the evidence for the result of nationalized healthcare and base a decision on that, not on hope or what you believe can’t happen. It certainly can.
SKYFOX on May 27, 2009 at 3:13 PM
We would be fighting to save people like Shona Holmes, but we’re too busy listening to “moderates” like Powell who want us to be more like Democrats. Hell I can’t even listen to Rush anymore now that he’s been labeled a bad guy by Ridge, Powell and others. I can’t wait until voters reward my party, the Republican Party, in two years by re-electing Democrats!
Did I mention how much “big government” moderates suck?
Stickeehands on May 27, 2009 at 3:20 PM
It’s kind of a waste for all of these conservative PACs to produce scare ads for semi-conservative Dems in semi-populated states… those PACs would be more effective in getting their message out if they would buy a block of airtime on Comedy Central and during the 9PM Eastern hour of CBS Thursday nights to run Steven Crowder’s existing video about Canadian health care:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdARfegZDns
With those two ad buys you instantly hit the over 40 “you kids get off my lawn” and the stoner dumbass college age crowds… old ladies will watch and say “Oh, the Steven boy is so handsome” and stoners will say “Whoa, that Chowder dude is f**ckin’ funny, dude!”
Message received and catastrophic healthcare boondoggle averted, thankmeverymuch!
ScottMcC on May 27, 2009 at 3:23 PM
AARP (like Consumer Reports magazine) is a statist front group that has parlayed its membership list to help destroy America.
The elites at the top will live fat and happy (w/ private healthcare) just like all the other elites, whether corporate execs or politicians.
I shredded my AARP membership offer….I can’t be bribed to help destroy my country like millions of others.
ex-Democrat on May 27, 2009 at 3:52 PM
I have been visiting Cato’s blog for most of the weeks, I’m pretty sure most of the libertarians there actually retracted most of what they initially said about the GOP’s proposal. Saying it looked more awful than it actually is.
Trov on May 27, 2009 at 4:04 PM
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/26/gop-health-care-alternative-not-as-bad-as-advertized/
Trov on May 27, 2009 at 4:07 PM
And most Americans think that Obama is doing a great job, so what? That doesn’t mean that either statement is true. The truth is that “most Canadians” are clueless about health care systems outside of our borders and the left has them convinced that the only alternative is to whip out the credit card everytime you have the sniffles. Don’t ask for Tylenol, it’ll bankrupt you!
Someone else has already said it and, as a Canuck, I’ll repeat it: Canadians whose lives are not on the line are the ones who are happy with the system.
If you follow our lead on this, I’ll advise that you make yourself familiar with two key phrases: 1) Wait Times and 2) Closing Beds.
That’s right kids – in order to meet goverment-determined health care budgets, hospitals and clinics will not only delay examinations, referrals, tests and treatments, they’ll “close beds” in order to reduce hospital capacities. Then they can reduce staffing levels and other operating costs.
Sounds great, huh? Oh – did I mention that we still have to pay health insurance premiums? Yes we do! But it’s all free! Free!
landshark on May 27, 2009 at 4:12 PM
The Reps’ Obama Lite program illustrates the terrible truth that money is like crack to politicians of both parties. There’s no way the Reps will give up the trillions Obama is spending; they will just change who they dole it out to.
All I want is fiscal conservatism.
PattyJ on May 27, 2009 at 4:26 PM
The AARP leadership is not concerned with their membership. They are part of the liberal power machine.
If they were concerned, they would be lobbying to have federal budget cuts in order to have the general fund start to repay what it owes SS. That obviously isn’t happening.
Harpoon on May 27, 2009 at 4:45 PM
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/francis/archive/2009/05/12/health-care-lies-about-canda.aspx
This article seems to take some air out of this ad.
harry on May 27, 2009 at 5:08 PM
Translation: “No, I do not have any data that is more recent”.
BTW, here’s some more 10 year old data for you.
1. The Administration in power in the US at the time specifically cited an Iraq-al Qaeda working relationship when they indicted bin Laden.
2. That same Administration, as well as over 90% of the Democrats in the Senate, all said Iraq had WMDs.
Del Dolemonte on May 27, 2009 at 5:11 PM
It might if so many of the statements weren’t entirely subjective, rather than empirical measurements.
Here are a couple of my favorites with my comments.
I can vouch that the system is more than adequate and is not run by civil servants but by doctors who are able to treat everyone, rich or poor.(Anyone who looks at the roster of any given regional health board will know this is, at best, disingenuous. Board members are political appointees, not civil servants. And members may include some doctors, so it’s true but meaningless).
2. Canada’s health care system which fully looks after 32 million people (is she really stating that every Canadian requires and receives medical treatment every year? Apparently,yes) costs roughly what the private-sector health insurance companies make in profits in the United States looking after less than half the population for excessive premiums (What? Can anyone parse this statement?).
8. No emergency is neglected in Canada (just remember that we don’t consider lying on a gurney in a hallway, awaiting treatment, to be “neglect”).
11. Canadians are able to choose their own physicians (from among those who are accepting patients – which can be a pretty short list) and to seek multiple opinions (if you don’t mind waiting 3-6 months for a single referral appointment).
14. Americans are being cheated by a patchwork quilt system where the highest risk people – veterans, the indigent and elderly – are insured by governments but the “gravy” or young, healthy people are handed over to private insurance companies (the fact that she’s including this in a list of lies about Canadian healthcare should give you a sense of how thin her argument is).
landshark on May 27, 2009 at 5:30 PM
Denial and restrictions to Americans who are always ready for immediate gratification might be the only way to make them realize how crappy BHO is.
I am a very healthy middle ager and this scares the hell out of me…
Ltlgeneral64 on May 27, 2009 at 5:45 PM
11. Canadians are able to choose their own physicians (from among those who are accepting patients – which can be a pretty short list) and to seek multiple opinions (if you don’t mind waiting 3-6 months for a single referral appointment).
Hmmmm not true. I live and work in Quebec at the present time. I used to live and work in NY State.
My wife (who is Canadian) saw her Doctor (found in one day when we moved here, we could have had our choice of many) last week. They found a light heart mumur, nothing major, but were slightly concerned. Tommorow she is going in for a full blood worrk test and other things to make sure that there is nothing seriously wrong.
Cost to us…nothing.
When we first moved here my wife was 7 months pregnant, her water broke on day one. She was at the hospital an hour later, our son was born later that evening. Due to his low birth weight he was in the preemie ward for two months. During that time we had a terrific support network helping is get settled.
After he was born a nurse visited us once a week for the first month to make sure thaqt my wife was healthy and to inquire if we had any concerns or questions. We could have declined this service if we wanted.
Cost to us nothing.
So what are my taxes?
Well I”m a self-employed IT contractor….23%…thats it.
If I were employed by a company 32-35% after RRSP’s and other deductions.
We have never waited more than an hour at any clinic to be seen for minor issues.
Is it like this everywhere in Canada…nope but most people are quite happy with the Health Care system.
I’ve lived and worked in both countries, the system here is, sorry to day it, better.
harry on May 27, 2009 at 5:53 PM
My wife’s best friend died waiting for OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Program) to treat her for her cancer. They basically told her she was low priority, because her cancer was terminal. She was in her late 30’s. That’s better than the U.S.? I don’t think so.
Buford Gooch on May 27, 2009 at 6:00 PM
Oh and Landshark I forgot to mention that my son’s dental is covered by the government while he is a youth to a certain dgree (except braces which is covered by my own insurance)
Daycare is 7 dollars a day and fully regulated
I know it’s pretty crappy but hey it sucks to live in a socialist system…/sarc
harry on May 27, 2009 at 6:02 PM
Methinks “harry” is exaggerating greatly. I wonder if he’s even in Canada.
Buford Gooch on May 27, 2009 at 6:15 PM
Methinks “harry” is exaggerating greatly. I wonder if he’s even in Canada.
Buford Gooch on May 27, 2009 at 6:15 PM
Nope I’m sitting here and it’s raining in Aylmer Quebec. And I really don’t need to exaggerate.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that there are worse things than Universal Health Care. My wife has voted Conservative in all the past elections but would drop them like a hot potato if they touched the Health Care system.
There is even…gasp private health care available in Quebec, a ruling that was upheld by the Supreme Court.
harry on May 27, 2009 at 6:30 PM
Great! But I’m amused that you think your experience is typical.
My family doctor retired in 1993, I still don’t have a new one. Of the doctors in my area, most are either not accepting new patients, accepting new patients who are family members of current patients, or accepting new patients who meet certain criteria. I can choose any one that I want from those that remain. And how about those Canadians who live in rural areas? They’re lucky if they have any doctors in their area.
Responsive? Last fall, I cut off the tip of my finger in an accident. Went to the local ER and queued up to go through triage. 90 minutes later I was still in line and still bleeding. I gave up and went home. The bleeding stopped a few hours later and I didn’t get blood poisoning, so I can’t complain right? (To be fair, they do – rightfully – give priority to pregnant women although only one came in while I was there).
Ever needed an MRI? How long did that take? For that matter what’s the MRI to person ratio in the two countries? You’d think it was brand-new technology, or something.
Nice to know that your childless neighbors are paying for your son’s daycare. As an adult with no children I can tell how GD’d thrilled I would be but in Alberta we still think that parents who live above the poverty line should take primary responsibility for ensuring that their kids are looked after while they work.
I don’t object to a government system as long as I have the option to say “no thanks”. My question to you socialized medicine fans is why do you object to letting me participate in an inferior system? If your way is so damn great why do you need the force of law to perpetuate it?
Oh, and by the way, since you live in Quebec I’ll point out that your tax bill may not be terribly high but you can thank Alberta for that. Since we’re the only province that is always a net payer, we’re picking up the slack for you.
You’re welcome.
landshark on May 27, 2009 at 6:37 PM
Ever needed an MRI? How long did that take? For that matter
Actually my son did, he had a pretty bad accident when he was three. He had an MRI as part of the normal checkup.
That’s the way the system works, I didn’t ask for it, it’s the way it is. Most people are pretty comfortable with it. My son’s class size is 20 students per class, the daycare is cheap and my standard of living is higher than it was when I lived in the US.
As for Alberta picking up the tab….
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/alberta-asks-ottawa-for-220-million-in-aid/article1152550/
Yeah O.K.
harry on May 27, 2009 at 6:47 PM
Did you even read the 2nd paragraph of that article? Clearly not.
landshark on May 27, 2009 at 6:54 PM
I call bullshit. An MRI is not considered part of a normal checkup.
Given the numbers in this article, I’m quite confident that my assessment of your statement is accurate. By the way, did you know that Quebec has only reduced it’s MRI wait times because it uses private clinics? What do you know – the public system lacks sufficient operating capacity.
landshark on May 27, 2009 at 7:02 PM
Yeah I did but poster would have you believe that Ontario / Quebec contributed nothing. All provinces pay into the Fed. That Alberta paid slightly more per capita during boom times is irrelevant.
Whenever they bust the whining starts.
As for the fact that Alverta mismanged it’s finances…weeeelllll.
That’s Alberta for ya all hat, no cattle.
harry on May 27, 2009 at 7:08 PM
forgot to link the article
When the median wait time for an MRI in Canada is 12 weeks, and Manitoba is the quickest at only 8 weeks, I find your claim laughable.
landshark on May 27, 2009 at 7:10 PM
O.K. then…maybe you could ask the doctors who did it. My son fell and broke his femur, they were concerned that during the falls he had hit other parts and an MRI was dome immediately.
Why the heck would I make that up?
harry on May 27, 2009 at 7:11 PM
I know a woman who is 90 years old. She was in great pain one evening and went to the hospital near me. She had to wait 9 hours to see a doctor. During that time, she was in too much pain to sit up in the waiting room, so they let her lie down on the floor. Not even a gurney. She could have died and they couldn’t have cared.
I went to the same hospital 4 years ago with abdominal pain. They saw me right away. But I was in so much pain, the Dermerol they gave me had no effect. My father, who came by my side, asked for more Demerol on my behalf an hour later. It took them another hour to give me more because the doctor was somewhere else and there was only one doctor available for all the patients. The pain only got worse. I was at this point screaming in pain, like a woman in child labor. They refused me any better pain medication and just left me like that all evening. I felt like a hot knife was cutting my bowel. They kept me screaming like that. For four more hours non-stop. Never even stopped in to see why the pain medication was not working or bothered to wonder why I was screaming. My father sheepishly asked the nurse for some stronger pain medicine, and the nurse threatened to have him thrown out by security if he dared make that request again. I kid you not.
Wonderful socialist hospital.
Wonderful socialist staff.
Wonderful socialist medicine.
You guys are in for a world of hurt. Welcome to the Third World.
keep the change on May 27, 2009 at 7:12 PM
oh you’re funny “every pays into the fed”… yeah, and does what they pay in compare to what they get out.
Quebec: Canada’s shiftless uncle.
landshark on May 27, 2009 at 7:26 PM
The article points out that because we have a larger population we get more money. That is, the money dolled out is on a per captia basis. NB gets more than Quebec.
What’s your point exactly?
harry on May 27, 2009 at 7:31 PM
O.K. then…maybe you could ask the doctors who did it. My son fell and broke his femur, they were concerned that during the falls he had hit other parts and an MRI was dome immediately.
Why the heck would I make that up?
harry on May 27, 2009 at 7:11 PM
Examining the damage from a broken femur is a “normal checkup”? Gee, for most of us that sort of thing means some basic bloodwork, checking out the CV system, examining for warning signs of common ailments, etc.
If it was, instead, a follow-up exam for the broken leg, then it seems safe to say they booked the MRI when they scheduled the appointment. Far less impressive, that.
landshark on May 27, 2009 at 7:34 PM
keep the change on May 27, 2009 at 7:12 PM
Go to a hospital in the US with no health insurance and ask them to give you larger does of pain medication LOL!
I’ve been there when I was in my twenties and hadn’t a care in the world. The system was degrading and horrific. It took me almost 5 years to pay off the bill I was given.
The present system in the US is broken, period. Saying NO to every alternate idea is less than intelligent.
All I’ve ever heard is Canada Health System Bad (when overall it is not) US PRESENT system is good (which it is most certainly NOT).
Where is the middle ground?
harry on May 27, 2009 at 7:38 PM
Nope same day. Nothing scheduled. He was moved from Gatineau Hospital to the Ottawa Hospital for Sick Kids and given the MRI straight away.
He was a little hurt three year old.
There was no discussion, the doctor recommended it and it was done.
I rode in the ambulance.
harry on May 27, 2009 at 7:43 PM
Wow. You receive less than what NB does. Booming, economic, powerhouse New Brunswick. Net recipient are still takers. i.e. a “drain”. We subsidize you.
And, make no mistake, I’m not whining about Alberta’s economy. We still have jobs, the lowest inflation rate, the lowest tax rate in Canada, and until this year budget surpluses. Our “bad times” are still pretty damn good.
landshark on May 27, 2009 at 7:45 PM
No actually you just asked the Feds for a bailout. Alberta lives and breaths on a boom-bust economy.
Bad fiscal and government management have made this the norm in Alberta.
Wy you are not a bit more pissed about that, I don’t know.
Let’s have a quick look at weel run provincial govt:
Manitoba 4.6% (5.1%)
Saskatchewan 5.0% (4.7%)
And Brad..well Brad is a Conservative who kicks ass and takes numbers.
His Province is havin a party while the rest burn.
And you talk Alberta?
harry on May 27, 2009 at 7:56 PM
In the US, most people have insurance, so you are comparing apples to oranges. Why reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator? In Canada, where we supposedly have insurance, we still get treated like dirt, and we still need to buy expensive private insurance for dental and medication, two huge expenses. So we have the worst of both worlds.
My brother last year had a pinched nerve in his back act up. He could not walk. He was confined to bed. He needed an MRI for surgery, but the MRI wait list was months. Instead, he was able to go to Buffalo to get an MRI the next day.
With our system, he was screwed, laying in his own sh1t. Thankfully, he had the US system, and his own money, to bail him out.
Canada has chosen to give everybody a low level of service, at the expense of everybody, rather than the US system, where they have chosen to give most people a high level of service at the expense of a few who have no service. Which is better? Which is more important? The needs of the many, or the needs of the few? The Canadian system is only better for the working poor, and only if they never need serious or quick care. The US system is better for everyone else, namely the majority, and is the best if you need fast and advanced care, and let’s face it, when you are sick, time is of the essence.
The Canadian system is a manifestation of socialism where everyone, regardless of income, shares the same misery by rationing. And still, despite the lack of doctors and advanced machines, it is broke just like the US system with plenty of doctors and advanced machines. So what is gained by going the socialist route?
keep the change on May 27, 2009 at 8:05 PM
47 Million+ do not and those that have less than full coverage is much higher.
There is no rationing as I’ve pointed out. As a Christian, it’s my duty to be my brothers keeper.
Everyone sould have the ability to access affordable healthcare, it’s not a competition.
And…should they just all go under a bridge and die? You are talking kids here as well.
No the Canadian system is where everyone can see a Doctor and not worry abvout losing their house / job/ everything else.
harry on May 27, 2009 at 9:32 PM
That is a minority the last time I checked out of a nation of 300 million, the majority of which have access to the highest technology in the world, and in medicine, technology is what counts, not what is free.
No rationing? Do you know what that word means? When you have so few MRI machines that it takes months to use one, that is rationing. When there are so few specialists that it takes months to see one, that is rationing. As far as your religion is concerned, you can give to charity. But you got no business using my money to pay for your health care.
Says who? Says the socialist ideology where everybody is entitled to something that any person who pays taxes knows is far too expensive to ever be a right. And in Canada, it is not affordable health care we have, it is “free” health care. Health care is like any other commodity. You get it if you can pay for it. Supply and demand.
That is not an argument. That is an emotional plea. Policy based on emotions is what has created a debt monster that is sinking the West.
No, the Canadian system is one where everyone can see a GP. If you need to see a specialist or you need surgery, you can be very much screwed. Especially if you need one because you have a tumor growing in you, or like me, you have a nerve entrapment that is atrophying while you wait 12 months for surgery. In America, you buy insurance for health, just like you buy insurance for your car. The tax payers don’t pay for your car insurance.
keep the change on May 27, 2009 at 10:42 PM
Wow
I’ll stick with my emotional plea while you sit there and deny children healthcare.
There is no lack of MRI machines, as I said my son had a MEI the same day
Is there a supply of sick people and if they are dead, where exactly is the demand? You are talking about people here, not pizza pockets…
No, with your gammy hand, you have an existing condition, good luck with getting insured.
Buddy I’ve lived on both sides, save your garbage for someone else.
harry on May 27, 2009 at 10:53 PM
for the record, harry is an astroturfing liar.
daesleeper on May 27, 2009 at 10:57 PM
And with whose money will you implement this emotion? The level of child care is no better in Canada, children can’t get any better or faster care than adults. So save the “think of the children” emotional blackmail rubbish.
So based on your one experience, you are concluding that there is no shortage of MRI machines, or specialists, or surgeons, or doctors in Canada as a whole? BTW, what happens in Quebec is not indicative of the rest of Canada. Just in case you didn’t notice, Quebec does things differently, and all subsidized by Ontario.
There is a demand for health care and a supply of it at a given price. The price reflects the demand. Pay the price if you want it. There can be no right to free products or services that are so expensive. That way madness lies. The system is broke as a result, and the taxes can’t support it. It is unsustainable. If you want medicine, if you want car insurance, if you want groceries, if you want clothes, if you want a house, you pay for it. Start giving away those things for “free” and see what happens. Well, we have seen. We are broke, just as medicare and medicaid are broke.
I didn’t have a gammy hand until our system made it that way by denying me attention for 12 months while it atrophied. In the US, I would have got the surgery in a timely fashion. Some things are worth paying for. And you get what you pay for.
Buddy, you have been sucking at the teat of the taxpayers in an unsustainable system and never having the rationing affect you in Quebec.
keep the change on May 27, 2009 at 11:50 PM
I thank the Canadians for their input in this spirited debate.
Just the limited experience I’ve had dealing with Medicare is enough to convince me that nationalized health care would be nothing less than a disaster of epic proportions. We’ll all have to put up with this bureaucratic B.S. soon enough when we turn 65; I’d like to keep it that way, thanksverymuch. I think if we could get away from this notion of employer-provided insurance, that would be the best thing we could do to reform health care. For all the talk about “the European system,” there is little mention of Switzerland, which does NOT provide state-run health care but does require all residents to purchase their own insurance. If Washington wants to regulate something, why not that? Or better yet, let the states mandate it on their own terms, as they do with car and home insurance. Neither of which, BTW, are subsidized by employers. I fully understand that to buy your own insurance out of pocket now is expensive; I know because I buy my own (though I’m very happy with the cost and coverage of my own plan). But much of the reason for that is that the market is stunted and anemic precisely because so few people are in it sharing the risk. I see no reason it couldn’t — or wouldn’t — become more robust and competitive with 300 million people active in the marketplace. Speaking of which, why is there never any mention of the fact that nationalizing health care would put scores of insurance companies out of business, and their employees on the unemployment line? Is this really what we need right now? More financial turmoil? Or I suppose The One would just take over Blue Cross Blue Shield like he has with the car companies. Delightful.
I realize that there will always be people who fall through the cracks, people with pre-existing or chronic conditions, who would never be able to afford to provide for their own care in a purely private pay system, but that’s what risk pools are for. The answer is NOT Medicaid on steroids. Ask anyone who has had to deal with Medicaid — or Medicare — how effective the system is. There are still thousands of those folks not getting the care they need because there simply are not enough providers to go around. Anyone who thinks this reality isn’t going to get WORSE once the government tries to ensure all of us is simply deluding themselves.
NoLeftTurn on May 28, 2009 at 3:19 AM
Medicaid, Medicare, and VA hospitals for everyone.
How dumb do you have to be to think this is a good idea?
darktood on May 28, 2009 at 10:29 AM
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