Are you ready for a federal sales tax?
posted at 7:42 pm on May 27, 2009 by Allahpundit
Controlling how much tax I pay based on how much I choose to consume? Sounds like a plan — as an alternative to income tax, not as a supplement to it. Is that what the left has in mind? Somehow I doubt it.
No worries, though. If they didn’t have the stones to close Gitmo, they assuredly don’t have the stones to pass a tax that would hit the poor where they live.
A White House official said a VAT is “unlikely to be in the mix” as a means to pay for health-care reform. “While we do not want to rule any credible idea in or out as we discuss the way forward with Congress, the VAT tax, in particular, is popular with academics but highly controversial with policymakers,” said Kenneth Baer, a spokesman for White House Budget Director Peter Orszag…
The VAT has advantages: Because producers, wholesalers and retailers are each required to record their transactions and pay a portion of the VAT, the tax is hard to dodge. It punishes spending rather than savings, which the administration hopes to encourage. And the threat of a VAT could pull the country out of recession, some economists argue, by hurrying consumers to the mall before the tax hits.
What would it cost? Emanuel argues in his book that a 10 percent VAT would pay for every American not entitled to Medicare or Medicaid to enroll in a health plan with no deductibles and minimal copayments. In his 2008 book, “100 Million Unnecessary Returns,” Yale law professor Michael J. Graetz estimates that a VAT of 10 to 14 percent would raise enough money to exempt families earning less than $100,000 — about 90 percent of households — from the income tax and would lower rates for everyone else.
And in a paper published last month in the Virginia Tax Review, Burman suggests that a 25 percent VAT could do it all: Pay for health-care reform, balance the federal budget and exempt millions of families from the income tax while slashing the top rate to 25 percent. A gallon of milk would jump from $3.69 to $4.61, and a $5,000 bathroom renovation would suddenly cost $6,250, but the nation’s debt would stabilize and everybody could see a doctor.
Ace reminds us that to pass this now would be an egregious breach of Obama’s promise that no one making less than $250K will pay any new taxes, and while that breach is ultimately inevitable, it’ll surely be delayed until his second term. Exit question: Given that there’s no question you’ll eventually be taxed more to pay for The One’s dream of a Great/Impoverished Society, how would you rather do it? With a sales tax or a higher marginal income tax rate?








Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2
Why do I have to accept that premise? Why can’t we use this type of nonsense to make 2010 a year in which The One loses his minions in the House and Senate?
/Starting with the premise, “yeah, we’re going to lose” guarantees loss.
AZfederalist on May 27, 2009 at 9:04 PM
There’s gonna be a lot of pissed off coal miners next year.
faol on May 27, 2009 at 9:05 PM
Well, in Star Trek, they achieved a 24th Century without money. Screw that, we’re about to achieve it in the 21st…
john1schn on May 27, 2009 at 9:06 PM
I got stopped by the tax police in Milan about 50 ft from the restaurant where I had lunch. The waiter did not give us a receipt. My friend insisted that we be given one and explained to me why. Also, he said we could be fined, too. Well, he was right.
Blake on May 27, 2009 at 9:06 PM
I give up. I’ll quit working. They can have 100% of nothing.
Cicero43 on May 27, 2009 at 9:06 PM
They’re looking forward to that. They’ll just move from taxes on income and spending to flat-out confiscation of wealth.
Remember, The Precedent wants to “spread the wealth“.
progressoverpeace on May 27, 2009 at 9:09 PM
The Obama administration is just FULL of great ideas. Spend, spend, spend, tax, tax, tax! Whoohoo!
scalleywag on May 27, 2009 at 9:10 PM
Hey, but, but, he’s keeping one of his campaign promises:
Spread the Wealth – Isn’t it More Fair?
tru2tx on May 27, 2009 at 9:11 PM
Boom, bada, bing!
No ‘service’ = no rights. No contribution, no cup-o-noodles…well…unless you sign here:_________________
designate as my proxy at the voting booth a worthy sorta citizen identified by the politburo.
Limerick on May 27, 2009 at 9:13 PM
Wanna see more empty store fronts? Your favorite stores closing. This is what is going to happen. Obama needs to be stopped as do the other democrats. Start with Harry Reid, Barney Frank, Dodd, Durbin, Boxer, Pelosi, Waxman, Markey, Feinstein. Add into the mix some Republicans that need to be primaried. Crist needs to be defeated in Florida. Support Rubio. I did – I sent money. Graham needs to go in SC, but that has to wait. Cornyn needs to be considered to be out of there – with the Crist endorsement. Enough is enough.
suzyk on May 27, 2009 at 9:13 PM
Just once.
DerKrieger on May 27, 2009 at 9:15 PM
So why would anyone shop in a store if they’re going to be taxed heavily on purchases? Won’t they start buying from the guy on the street corner?
scalleywag on May 27, 2009 at 9:17 PM
Where the heck do these Demosocialist fools think the money to pay for their programs and redistribution schemes is going to come from if they keep this crap up?
DerKrieger on May 27, 2009 at 9:18 PM
So I guess Hopey’s end game,is for the
Americans to have a lifestyle as the Cubans!
Ya know,thats not right!ahem.
canopfor on May 27, 2009 at 9:19 PM
I would rather have a sales tax, personally. I want to pay and I want the a**wipes who voted in this monster to pay and pay obviously with every stinking purchase they make. This is pure insanity. Their tax intake is down because the economy sucks (despite the media hocus pocus) and they are looking to significantly increase taxes, go for it baby give me the VAT.
ORconservative on May 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM
….on the street corner?
scalleywag on May 27,2009 at 9:17PM.
scalleywag: In which Organized Community!!!ahem,hehe:)
canopfor on May 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM
If Obama goes for this, I wonder if Sotomayor would say it was a wise decision because Obama is half black, or a dumb one because he is half white?
Star20 on May 27, 2009 at 9:29 PM
Save your old clothes, darn your socks and stock up on seeds that are on the market. My tongue is in my cheek, but this isn’t too far from the truth with this marxist. I need a new SUV, but I’m keeping my GMC (collector’s item). I will buy a VW SUV if I can find one…. Thank God in heaven I have everything I need and a pantry full of food. What in the hell is going on this Country? There will never be a democrat elected again in this country.
suzyk on May 27, 2009 at 9:29 PM
Snort!
Whatever will O’s base say when this happens?
Whoops! Mortgage not paid, gas tank not filled? Oh dear!
How do they think Canada pays for the “free stuff”?
katy the mean old lady on May 27, 2009 at 9:30 PM
suzyk,
He’s a communist in democrat clothing.
Star20 on May 27, 2009 at 9:31 PM
If I had to choose, I’d pick the higher marginal income tax rate. With one tax, there is still a chance to control/reduce it once the liberals are out of office. A sales tax added to income tax means that we will never get rid of the sales tax, it will only go up, and the government will use it as a basis to overspend to new depths.
All in all, I’d prefer abolishing the income tax and go with a general sales tax. 25% is lunacy though. The Bible says we should tithe our income to the Lord. I don’t think the government needs more than that from us.
Mallard T. Drake on May 27, 2009 at 9:31 PM
No kidding Star20…. When I was a teenager I was told of an antichrist being born in the mid-east. Now I know of whom they were talking. The time-line is even right. I’m 57 and he’s how old? Hmmmmm.
suzyk on May 27, 2009 at 9:33 PM
My husband is an healthcare VP. He could retire, I suppose – doesn’t want to. But, if all this comes to pass – he will and say screw it. Collect the rocking chair money and give up the big bucks. Why not work for cash or consult and not give Obama his salary. This is insane. I gave up my law career because of this idiot and the judicial system. I live in a Red State and it’s nice here, but the liberals are moving here to get out of the blue states and they want to change us. What’s wrong with this picture?
suzyk on May 27, 2009 at 9:36 PM
Got ammo?
faol on May 27, 2009 at 9:42 PM
Use the California (tax) dream’n bathroom scale man: Sales tax?..Cut spending? Sales tax?..Cut spending? Sales tax?..Cut spending?
Oh Dude, bad news eh.
Speakup on May 27, 2009 at 9:44 PM
Um, I’m pretty sure he’s already broken that promise. At least on cigarettes, and I think some other “indirect” stuff (can’t remember, too disturbed by the demise of the country unfolding before my eyes). But 1 is enough… makes him a liar. Next will be Cap and Trade.
At any rate, don’t be surprised at all if this does come to pass. I keep telling you people, this guy is a socialist dictator and he will not stop until the country is fully bankrupt and we must come to the feds for everything.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!
RightWinged on May 27, 2009 at 9:56 PM
There should be no hidden taxes, including the taxes hidden in the price of gasoline. A vat is a hidden tax until the end. There should also be no income tax. We should have only sales taxes, so that everyone knows how much they are paying in taxes. That would keep taxes lower, because people would see what they are paying and would demand lower taxes.
Johan Klaus on May 27, 2009 at 9:58 PM
My exact sentiments.
jimmy2shoes on May 27, 2009 at 9:59 PM
I am only surprised it took them five months to float this idea. I discussed it today with two laborers who were working doing some landscaping at my house today. They both voted for Obama. They both went absolutely nuts when I told them what he was thinking, both asking how they were supposed to live on 25% less?
The next bomb to drop will be the “wealth tax” where everyone will be require to provide a balance sheet of their net worth and send in a percentage, with the “rich” being asked to do the fair thing and send in a higher percentage. Sure makes an ambitious guy want to go out and work harder.
flyoverland on May 27, 2009 at 10:02 PM
Will some people be more tax free than others?
bloggless on May 27, 2009 at 10:08 PM
VAT is a regressive tax. The poor pay a higher percentage of their income for the VAT than the rich.
slp on May 27, 2009 at 10:21 PM
Ha, Ha…..that’s the funniest thing I’ve read all day……’his second term’. There’s not going to be a second term. You just wait until the movement to repeal the 22nd Amendment starts. These guys are playing for keeps.
Meanwhile, the GOP-Marxist Party (as opposed to the Democratic Socialist Party) is quiet as usual about the daily progression of Marxism in our country. They’re being rolled flat on a daily basis.
Hello RNC…is there anyone home?
TheAdmiral on May 27, 2009 at 10:29 PM
I just don’t see Obama getting rid of one tax to go to another. He’d use both as his expensive policies demand it. Both would be implemented but likely not in his first term should he be re-elected.
Yakko77 on May 27, 2009 at 10:37 PM
I think the old soviet word was Nichevo “on the left”..
Gee, why is obama raising taxes?? I thought that if we elected him the unicorns would fart out everything we need. Musta been wrong on that one.
bullseye on May 27, 2009 at 10:39 PM
No doubt this VAT tax would cut demand and encourage savings. I do doubt that this is a good formula for getting the economy going again since there is already a shortage of demand.
KW64 on May 27, 2009 at 10:43 PM
I say we pull a California and have all USA vote on this. Leeeett’ss see what the country has to say. Do they have the cojones to do that? I don’t think so!
If this is gonna impact most if not all the country (what about territories?), why those possibly affected will have to be shoved with nonsense like this?
And,Obama while you’re at it, please restore the “In God We Trust” on ALL quarters. Thank you.
ProudPalinFan on May 27, 2009 at 10:44 PM
Panama is looking more inviting every day!
FireBlogger on May 27, 2009 at 10:56 PM
Don’t forget something good folks….
The power to tax is the power to destroy….
Given the fact that the Jug Eared One speak with forked toungue, I would expect that this is probably a multi stage plan.
1. Get the tax in place..
2. Make it something ‘reasonable’ like the original income tax… a few percent on the wealthiest 2 percent of the country. In this case, start with something like 5 percent.
3. Find a few cheaters and stick their heads on pikes..
4. OK, now he has the tax… Gee,
— wanna buy ammo??? That is an 87% tax
— Wanna buy a gun?? 150% tax.
— Wanna buy something other than an obamaKlownkar? 200%
— Wanna buy a real bible?? 400%
— Homeschooling your kids – 200% on books
The left has already shown their colors by somehow closing down REPUBLICAN car dealerships… Hmmm imagine that…
This is only partially about the 3.some trillion pissaway. This is also about control.
bullseye on May 27, 2009 at 10:58 PM
Wow! That’s what I call solid economic planning. Announce an onerous tax to get us out of the recession because people will do panic buying BEFORE it commences! What could possibly go wrong with such a brilliant idea? Next they’ll be telling us that in spite of throwing billions of dollars at GM and Chrysler-they’re going to declare bankruptcy anyway (which they could easily have done sans bailouts.)
MaiDee on May 27, 2009 at 11:09 PM
The government has been taken over by an organized crime boss, his cronies and hired armies of thugs.
I weep for our country. It has become a banana republic.
Daggett on May 27, 2009 at 11:45 PM
Provided it’s coupled with the abolishing of the 16th Amendment. Yea! Fat Chance! So…”no, not ready”
Fed45 on May 28, 2009 at 1:13 AM
Now we are being run by Rahm Emmanuel’s brother. We’ve got all these unelected and unapproved Czars, and now we’ve got family members piping in deciding we should be taxed an extra ten percent or 25 percent or whatever on everything.
They are turning this country into pure crap.
Alana on May 28, 2009 at 2:05 AM
Obama’s pledge:
Read my lips, new taxes!
(Whatever happened to jobs creation?)
profitsbeard on May 28, 2009 at 3:08 AM
A sales tax in addition to the income and sundry other taxes we’re burdened with already? No thanks. I’ll take my chances with the current clusterfark and a higher marginal rate. I can find the deductions somewhere.
However, a sales tax to replace the income (and other) taxes would be ideal. Taxing productivity, taxing inheritances (wealth that has ALREADY been taxed multiple times in most cases!), taxing earnings on investments — this is all immoral IMO. The entire premise of the corporate income tax is a violation of Due Process. This wealth is taxed at the corporate level, then it’s taxed again when the shareholder receives earnings at the individual level. Furthermore, it is unethical — or should be — to use the tax code for social engineering. While it might be a worthy goal for government to, say, buying real property or getting married, encouraging it via all manner of tax “credits” is categorically wrong.
So I would gladly take the Fair Tax over our current system, as I’m sure most here would. I might even take a VAT over what we have now. Would an underground economy spring up? Of course it would. People will always devise ways to evade taxes. (For more, see the post in “Headlines” re: the proposed Internet tax — who among us doesn’t already buy big ticket items online in order to avoid paying sales tax at Best Buy?) However, I think the potential for evasion is much less with a sales tax than it is with our current convoluted tax system and all of its many loopholes.
The only part of the Fair Tax I would oppose are the stupid prebates — for many reasons, not the least of which being the sheer cost of administering such a massive entitlement. Theoretically, lifting the current tax burden should leave individuals with more disposable income, thus making the higher cost of goods and services easy for consumers to absorb. In addition, eliminating the stupid payroll tax ought to mean that workers can demand a higher wage from employers. So I really don’t see the need for the prebate. Of course you will have the problem of the burden being too great for the truly indigent, but we already hand out food stamps to these individuals now. Maybe we replace those with a card that stores can swipe or whatever to eliminate the tax at the POS for those poorer consumers.
NoLeftTurn on May 28, 2009 at 5:03 AM
Higher marginal tax.
The normal taxes can be revised. There’s no rolling back an entirely new tax regime if a sales tax gets through… Especially after the vampires in Washington get flush with new blood.
Lehosh on May 28, 2009 at 6:20 AM
The Precedent is all about irreversibility and the most damaging policies possible.
progressoverpeace on May 28, 2009 at 6:25 AM
One of the problems with a VAT is that it increases the avoidance of taxes. When systems get authoritarian, people seek the venues that allow them to avoid the authority.
When a VAT went into effect in Canada, my shopping experienced changed from one of being an ‘American’ (ie. ‘we are all part of North America!’) to ‘how much do you want to buy, I don’t have to record the bloody taxes with you!!’ Yes in one stroke of the legislative fiat I went from looked down upon to VALUED CUSTOMER! What a feeling!
Why does that feeling get in place?
Simple.
You have made shopkeepers the unpaid tax collector for the State. The bookkeeping requirements went up (and even more steeply up from quarterly to monthly) and people started to shift to the underground economy. In theory the VAT is great, if you can convince the shopkeepers that being the unpaid servants of the State is a good deal… you can’t do that, and no matter what you dress it up with (‘oh, that is just part of the business overhead!’) that additional cost OF overhead gets passed on to the customers: you pay more pre-tax.
Now in the US we have this idiotic idea of taxing sweetened drinks. How about we do something different like remove the subsidies to produce it and put on, say, a 10% tarriff on imports of the stuff? That means the price point for production domestically drops to the global market plus 10% which is far lower than the subsidized price point. As production, domestically, drops against competition in the global market, the government can get its money at the wholesale import level… but, you can’t do that AND have free trade at the same time… and we really shouldn’t be supporting farming through subsidies if we mean what we say about global competition. Yet with this you can get rid of the subsidies (more available for government corruption…ahhhh… programs! that’s it, programs!), lower the overall cost of a product and yet increase government revenues at the import level, not per-person retail level… just like it says in the US Constitution on tarriffs and not restricting freedom of trade between the States…
But then that would be legal, smart, and bolster opportunities, plus expose subsidized farmers to the world market so they can shape up or find something else to do.
ajacksonian on May 28, 2009 at 7:28 AM
Yes! More taxes is just what the Dr. Ordered! This will fix the deficit and transfer more power to Washington and give each of us free free free! Oh…we are giving up our freedoms? WTF? Who cares as long as Nanny Sam takes care of me and mine! Free Free Free! That’s what I’m about!!!
Hey…we elected him! He won! Remember?
sabbott on May 28, 2009 at 8:02 AM
Yep, about the only difference between the US and a banana republic is that their dictators have cool uniforms with lots of medals. When you see barryo in a uniform with sunglasses that is the end.
Hey, I wonder how many pairs of 500 dollar sneakers Michelle Brunhilde Marcos Obama has in her closet at this point??
bullseye on May 28, 2009 at 8:57 AM
A VAT is an even worse idea than income tax.
darktood on May 28, 2009 at 9:09 AM
Obama and Pelosi. How ugly. Obama flies his fleet of carbon burners to Vegas for fund raising. Several tons of carbon a minute to fly the limos, helicopters and air farce 1. Then the ignorant audiacity to take value added tax. Every thing he does destroys value. He is the one that should be taxed for his deeds and waste. Pelosi flies to china also burning up carbon. She and Algore (fleece the flock evangelist for anti carbon) set records in poluttion.
What are they thinking?
seven on May 28, 2009 at 9:27 AM
That is ridiculous on it’s face. A 25% rate is a slash in taxes? Along with AP, I can accept a sales tax, as long as it is in lieu of an income tax, and the rate tops at 10%. Any higher, and I am not on board. God only asks for 10%, why should the government get more? We currently give more government revenue through the payroll tax than the income tax, and the payroll tax is 15% – there is no reason for the sales tax to be any higher, and that presumes that we eliminate the income tax.
Vashta.Nerada on May 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM
Obama is not very bright. he can’t look at the consequences of a decision. His attempt to destroy the secured bondholders stake kills the mututal funds held by union teachers in several states whose retirement invested in GM. This tax garbage means farmers and rural people (people that cling to guns and bibles he says) will barter at farmers markets and coops and avoid tax. I was a kid, we had a neighbor farmer that had a delivery route for eggs and We sold some milk. also raw and unregulated. We buthcered and froze chickens to give away to relatives in the city. Our cities will look like the markets in Mumbai and other under devoloped places.
seven on May 28, 2009 at 10:04 AM
I heard Gov Huckabee offer a sales tax instead of IRS. He told me drug dealers, whores and pimps would pay taxes on their Escalades for escapades.
seven on May 28, 2009 at 10:05 AM
With a 25% VAT, Americans would save taxes by moving to…France, where the VAT is “only” 18.6%, and they have no state sales taxes.
Steve Z on May 28, 2009 at 10:27 AM
A flat tax or national sales tax is the way to go. It’ll never happen because the current tax code makes it possible for special interests and lawmakers to tweak it to reward and punish whom they see fit. They won’t ever give up that power.
Ordinary1 on May 28, 2009 at 10:34 AM
The Democrats have already floated the idea to tax 401k gains and I expect that to “save” SS present unearned income such as pensions, that are not counted against SS as is earned income, will be treated as earned income. Also I expect that the unlimited earned income allowed for those above the full retirement age will cease. So if you have savings or a pension you will lose SS. The 62 retiement will also cease. I retired at 62 because of the above; to get in before they changed the rules. I don’t trust these people, period.
amr on May 28, 2009 at 10:58 AM
We’re unlikely to see a VAT replace the income tax for one simple reason: Baby Boomers.
That nice little demographic bulge that’s heading for retirement has already paid income tax on their non 401(k) savings. Do you think they’re prepared to pay a heavy tax on everything they consume in their retirement?
And the folks who put money in a Roth IRA will turn out to have been the biggest suckers, because they’ll have paid tax before putting the money in and after taking it out.
Such a deal!
Bill Roper on May 28, 2009 at 11:54 AM
I live in California, so the VAT will have a positive effect on Mexico’s economy, sending large enough purchases south of the border.
Theworldisnotenough on May 28, 2009 at 3:57 PM
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2