Video: FBI director, Congressman spar on “gateway drug”
posted at 7:10 pm on May 26, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
I got this over the weekend, but I’m not sure it’s the smackdown it’s cracked up to be. Rep. Steve Cohen (D-TN) grills FBI Director Robert Mueller on marijuana enforcement, and I’d normally be sympathetic to Cohen’s position, but Cohen isn’t arguing here; he’s pontificating, and without much evidence either way. The clip purports to show Mueller getting “schooled” on legalization, but it’s the most fact-deficient education outside of the Taliban School for Girls. See what you make of this:
If I wanted to argue this point, I would have asked Mueller whether alcohol use preceded marijuana use in these teen drug deaths, which is almost always the case, and then made the point that we don’t ban alcohol because it’s generally not toxic and adults can use it responsibly. Marijuana is even less toxic than alcohol, and its widespread (if illicit) use demonstrates that most adults can handle it responsibly, too. That’s not the case with cocaine, crystal meth, etc.
Of course, that assumes Cohen wanted to actually make an argument at least somewhat more intelligent than claiming milk is a gateway drug to beer. Maybe Cohen just wanted to get on YouTube waving his hand around. Live the dream, baby ….
Update: I had the wrong party on Cohen, who is a Democrat — which I knew, but for some reason put at R next to his name.
Blowback
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So people that will take any drug started with the most widely available. I fail to see how this proves that MJ is a problem.
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Within days of Len Bias’s OD people were on the street selling Len Bias cocaine, and people were paying more for it than for non name branded cocaine.
darktood on May 26, 2009 at 10:35 PM
You didn’t answer my question. I will ask it again.
Did the investigations of the traffic accidents in question prove that they were caused by a driver impaired by marijuana, and marijuana only?
I am not condoning driving while being a “stoner”, mind you. I just want to know if these actual accidents you cited were directly caused by this particular substance.
Del Dolemonte on May 26, 2009 at 10:42 PM
“First time in 20 years I felt really good…and it has to be illegal!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSJfCiIYPiU
Del Dolemonte on May 26, 2009 at 10:45 PM
Lots of things are harmful to your respiratory system. Breathing dust is harmful to your respiratory system. Does that make dust toxic? Cold air is harmful to your respiratory system. Is wintertime toxic?
Toxicity requires some sort of poison. Smoking, in and of itself, is not poisonous to the respiratory system. It is an irritant, and smoking certain things (most commonly tobacco) can be toxic, particularly through the release of CO.
But alcohol, by definition, is toxic. Yes, at low levels, the body is able to detoxify fairly easily and quickly. But it is poisonous, and that is demonstrated by the relative ease in which it can kill you.
JohnGalt23 on May 26, 2009 at 10:55 PM
It’s also called post hoc, ergo propter hoc for a reason.
JohnGalt23 on May 26, 2009 at 10:57 PM
Toxicity does not require “some sort of poison” only that a toxic item used “contains or is being poisonous”. Poison is “a substance that through its chemical action usually kills, injures, or impairs an organism”. Inhaling smoke is a chemical action which damages your lungs, every single time. Smoking is toxic and that includes smoking pot.
Alcohol is not by it’s definition toxic, any more than pot is. Alcohol must be abused to be toxic to your system. It is not easy to die from alcohol consumption unless it is abused. Moderate use has been shown to be beneficial to your system. Smoking on the other hand is always toxic to some degree, even if only extremely minor. Smoke damages your lungs. Smoke does not merely irritate your lungs.
Rocks on May 26, 2009 at 11:16 PM
Let’s see what the American Diabetes Association says:
Not good enough? how about the University of Iowa
at a
Not that I believe in rehab, but from Novus Detox
UC Davis
The Washington State Liquor Control Board
Dr. Aaron M. White, Ph.D.
Department of Psychiatry, Duke University Medical Center
From UCSF
JohnGalt23 on May 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM
Pure Semantics……
What you need to focus on if you’re trying to make a toxicity claim is what’s known as the LD50 of any given substance.
As for alcohol a BAC of 0.40% is widely accepted as being the Lethal Dose of Alcohol for most people.
At present it is estimated that marijuana’s LD-50 is around
1:20,000 or 1:40,000. So a marijuana smoker would have to consume 20,000 to 40,000 times as
much marijuana as is contained in one marijuana cigarette to reach a plausible LD50 level or as we call it “Death”.
As far as the smoke damaging your lungs… it’s an intuative statement but once again there’s no proof. There is however emerging evidence that marijuana has shown to remediate and even kill cancer cells. But don’t take my word for it, please research it yourself.
whiskeytango on May 27, 2009 at 3:54 AM
You’re missing the point of Rocks argument. He’s advocating the ingestion of edibles over the inhalation of smoke in order to get high. His only concern is the health of the good men and women who enjoy marijuana for health or recreational purposes.
Nonfactor on May 27, 2009 at 4:27 AM
Yep that’s why I blame schools for Bank Robberies.
If the schools had not taught the Bank Robber to read then the Bank Robber wouldn’t know where the Banks were,
cuz he can’t read the word
BANK!
DSchoen on May 27, 2009 at 4:42 AM
You know… from a practical standpoint I hope marijuana never gets legalized. I absolutely hate it when I walk down the sidewalk behind someone smoking a cigarette; I don’t want to get high also.
Can you imagine how polluted the city streets will be if marijuana was legalized?!!! There would be a dull haze hanging over cities like San Francisco and Seattle. Heck, it probably would block out the sun.
ThomasB. on May 27, 2009 at 5:31 AM
>>>I fail to see how this proves that MJ is a problem.
Anyone who knows someone who has used it for a sustained period of time knows that regular users become, over time, stupid as s**t.
seanrobins on May 27, 2009 at 6:49 AM
Maybe you just hang around stupid people. Or maybe I’m so stupid myself that I’m oblivious. Or maybe it’s that you’re so intelligent that you can’t help but notice others stupidity. Shoot, why don’t we just crown you king?
whiskeytango on May 27, 2009 at 7:39 AM
Marijuana is NOT a harmless drug! Good grief! Before you comment on something you should know what the hell you are talking about! Marijuana’s toxic substance THC, is not water soluble and therefore stores itself and builds up in the brain. It is not carried away by water. It is a thick black tarry substance that interferes with the electrical signals between the brains synapses. This leads to the “stoner response” or the inability to think or respond quickly.
Talk to an addiction specialist or center. Start with Hazeldon in Minnesota before you start throwing your tripe around!
sabbott on May 27, 2009 at 8:03 AM
Power is a gateway drug.
It should be heavily regulated so those in the federal government don’t get too much of it. As it is the place needs a power de-tox.
ajacksonian on May 27, 2009 at 8:21 AM
What I don’t understand is why someone who makes laws is arguing with someone who enforces laws about what the law should be.
jtdavies on May 27, 2009 at 8:47 AM
Oh I answered your question alright, but because as I pointed out in that answer, you cannot comprehend cause and effect, consequently you do not like the answer.
doriangrey on May 27, 2009 at 8:51 AM
The problem with this nation is there are too many people who are not “Live and let live” in their philosophy. This applies to both the right and the left. Cannabis is baically legal already. If you use any common sense at all, it’s nearly impossible to get caught using it.It’s a shame that the federal government has to destroy so many lives in feeding the prison industrial complex with this substance. If the Republicans want to retake the positions of power they have squandered, I think it’s HIGH time to forget Ronald Reagan and take a fresh look at Barry Goldwater. He was a true Republican, something we haven’t had in a long time…
adamsmith on May 27, 2009 at 8:59 AM
What the hell exactly is the point you are trying to make?
I can pull quotes for pot exactly the same as the ones you have for alcohol. Those quotes come from people relating to or studying abuse of alcohol. Of course they would describe alcohol in that light. What does any of that have to do with alcohol being more toxic than smoking pot?
Smoking pot is more toxic than drinking alcohol because it is being smoked.
Yes, and eating an apple damages the enamel on your teeth to some micro degree. Are apples poison now? This is a FAQ on LIVER Disease from an MD. How do you think he would describe alcohol? This same doctor goes on to describe what daily intake of alcohol is “safe”.
Do you have evidence which suggests smoking pot on a one to one dosage basis is less toxic than drinking alcohol?
Do you think any of the persons in the quotes you just cited would ever suggest taking up smoking?
Rocks on May 27, 2009 at 10:44 AM
Of coarse Marijuana isn’t harmless. Aspirin kills people every year too. Is it your business? Yes, but only as it relates to you and yours. Black Tar on the brain? Get real.
whiskeytango on May 27, 2009 at 11:04 AM
Then please do so.
JohnGalt23 on May 27, 2009 at 11:09 AM
Pure semantics eh? Then you go on to make the same point which has already been dealt with before. We don’t need to focus on the the LD50 at all because it’s irrelevant to my point because it is ludicrous to suggest ED meant “death” when he suggested marijuana is more toxic than alcohol.
The only reasonable reading of that is continued use of either substance and it’s effects of the system. Smoking pot isn’t more toxic than drinking a comparable amount of alcohol because it’s pot. It’s more toxic because it is being smoked and smoking it is by far the most common way of using pot.
It’s not just intuitive to suggest smoking damages your lungs it’s a fact. Is pot some singularly magical thing that just happens to not produce toxins and heat when burnt and inhaled and then causes damage to lung cells?
Ingesting Alcohol damages your liver to some degree but the liver’s function is to clear the body of toxins. The liver also clears toxins out of your body which enter the bloodstream when you smoke. The lung’s function is not to clear toxins but absorb oxygen and dispel CO2.
Whatever the possible benefits pot may have they are being negated by the smoking of it. The idea that someone would advocate smoking any drug because it has some benefit is crazy. If pot is beneficial to sick people then it should be ingested or vaporized. Morphine is used for pain killing benefits constantly but only an idiot would suggest smoking opium or heroin is a perfectly fine way to use morphine.
Rocks on May 27, 2009 at 11:18 AM
..you’re wasting your time.
You can’t reason a person out of a position that wasn’t reasoned into in the first place……just sayin’.
Itchee Dryback on May 27, 2009 at 11:21 AM
and that from the Medical Marijuana Information Resource Centre, not some liver doctor trying to keep people from being addicted to or using alcohol.
Why bother anyway? My point was that it irrelevant to the argument. Both alcohol and pot are toxic to the system. Your obsession with the word toxin is ridiculous. Anything there is, including water, can be described accurately using the words toxin, toxicity and intoxication.
Rocks on May 27, 2009 at 11:30 AM
any benefit negated? Says who, You? You’re perfectly capable and entitled to make that decision for yourself but stay out of other peoples business. And besides, I’m all for vaporizing and consuming edibles. If someone chooses to titrate via smoking the plant matter then it negates the positive effects? I think not. It may contribute to other complications but then again it may not. I agree that inhaling smoke isn’t a perfectly healthy thing to do but it’s certainly w/n one’s rights to choose barring nonsense laws. We should all have the right to grow it and ingest it in any form we CHOOSE. Period.
whiskeytango on May 27, 2009 at 11:59 AM
Do you have some point to make related to the relative toxicity of pot and alcohol in regular usage?
Rocks on May 27, 2009 at 12:11 PM
Except Ed didn’t suggest that cannabis is more toxic than alcohol. In fact, he flatly stated the opposite:
Trouble reading, Rocks?
JohnGalt23 on May 27, 2009 at 12:12 PM
Did he actually say “African-Americans used and saw it as something that was crippling and gave it to the Latin-Americans”?!?
CLaFarge on May 27, 2009 at 12:13 PM
So is it now your position that alcohol is toxic?
JohnGalt23 on May 27, 2009 at 12:18 PM
Considering I have spent umpteen posts arguing that Ed was wrong to suggest that pot is LESS toxic than alcohol would any reasonable person see that as anything but a typo?
Is this what your argument is reduced to?
Rocks on May 27, 2009 at 12:18 PM
Water is toxic to some degree. The term is descriptive.
Do you have some point to make related to the relative toxicity of pot and alcohol in regular usage?
Rocks on May 27, 2009 at 12:23 PM
So, your trouble is with writing, not reading.
Got it.
JohnGalt23 on May 27, 2009 at 12:27 PM
You have gone from saying that one drink alcohol is non-toxic, to admitting that alcohol “Ingesting Alcohol damages your liver to some degree”
Good. We’ve made progress.
Now, it is your claim that smoking cannabis even once a day is more damaging than that drink.
Can you back that claim up?
JohnGalt23 on May 27, 2009 at 12:30 PM
Not really… To even imply that smoking marijuana regularly is anywhere near as damaging as drinking regularly is absurd. Now, I’m willing to concede that smoking marijuana is 100% more harmful than not drinking alcohol; physiologically speaking, of coarse.
whiskeytango on May 27, 2009 at 12:40 PM
Sweet Jesus this is absurd. Yes it is and has been throughout this thread my one and only claim that regular usage of smoking pot is more toxic than regular usage of comparable amount of alcohol. Can I back it up? Yes, I just did throughout this thread. Drinking 1-2 drinks per day is actually beneficial to your system despite any level of toxicity alcohol has. Drinking, limited to 1-2 drinks a day show no long term adverse effects in people. It’s an established fact. Repeatedly proved in a number of scientific studies. Google it.
Abusing alcohol is far more toxic than abusing pot that is true but ED never suggested that he talking about abuse. In fact he goes on to reinforce the idea he is talking about moderate usage when hes says “its widespread (if illicit) use demonstrates that most adults can handle it responsibly, too”.
If a person smokes anything daily, including pot, they are going to develop respiratory problems.
Smoking a joint a day is more toxic to your system than taking a drink a day.
Rocks on May 27, 2009 at 1:05 PM
The older I have gotten and the more of a failure I have seen in our drug policy, I wonder what business is it of our government to rule what you do. I have come to feel that you should be allowed to use any drug you desire, without a doctors prescription. It is your body and you should be allowed to make the decision, not a crazy church group, ignornant politicians or over powering police.
dcaskey on May 27, 2009 at 2:22 PM
Most liberals and libertarians argue that it’s their body and the government should stay out of the privacy of home.
But in reality, pot smokers don’t just harm themselves and keep it just to their home, it affects everyone.
As I’ve said earlier, I hate it when I walk down the sidewalk and choke on someone’s cigaretter smoke, and I hate it when I have my apartment windows open and someone lights up near the window. What is to stop pot smokers from doing the same thing?!!! Hell, NO. Don’t legalize pot. Pot smokers are even more inconsiderate than tobacco smokers.
ThomasB. on May 27, 2009 at 6:13 PM
Also… to all the pot heads. If marijuana is so freaking healthy, then why doesn’t anyone use it as fuel for electricity? Certainly if pot was so healthy, then pot would be a clean fuel, non-polluting, and healthy for the environment.
ThomasB. on May 27, 2009 at 6:15 PM
Nice argument, Rocks.
JohnGalt knows you crippled him with your Facts, which is why he resorted to tedious points of debate, even insulting your “writing” over reading.
An informative thread. It’s just sad that so many, to advocate what they know is bad for them but want to do anyway, will reach and reach to draw a moral equivalency and justify why they do it.
Galt- When the emphysema catches up with you, like so many other people I’ve known who’ve Died using the same argument…. good luck. Stick to your guns. After all; it’s your body.
nationspatriotcom on May 27, 2009 at 6:52 PM
ThomasB. on May 27, 2009 at 6:15 PM
Itchee Dryback on May 27, 2009 at 6:53 PM
That’s definately one way to look at this issue. By your same logic we should outlaw beans and make any unpleasant smell a crime. And to say that marijuana smokers are inconsiderate, that’s weak at best.
whiskeytango on May 27, 2009 at 9:14 PM
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