NRSC: Mandates from we, but not from thee?
posted at 12:27 pm on May 24, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
The Republican Party has begun to find a voice and a theme in the first few months of the Obama administration, that of independence from Washington and a strong local voice in policy rather than a top-down attitude from an increasingly autocratic White House and Congress. At least, the Tallahassee Democrat’s editors write, Republicans like that theme when it suits their own purposes. When it comes to primary contests, however, the GOP seems to be singing a different tune:
The idea that government closest to the people knows what’s best has again become the mantra with Democrats controlling the White House and Congress.
In a few GOP-dominated states like Texas, the notion has even been taken to an absurd level with silly talk of secession over Washington’s perceived interference in state affairs.
In short, Washington mandates are bad, local choices are good.
Except, that is, when it comes to choosing Republican candidates.
Take Gov. Charlie Crist’s announcement last week that he was seeking the Senate seat being vacated by fellow Republican Mel Martinez. Within hours, the Republican establishment in Washington — desperate to save its dwindling number of Senate seats — threw its support behind him.
That puts Crist in position to reap tons of campaign cash, tap into the party’s other resources and improve his chances for victory.
The only problem is that former GOP Speaker of the Florida House Marco Rubio is also running. While Rubio has given no indication of pulling out, it’s doubtful other Republicans will jump in.
This really does reek of hypocrisy. Republicans have rightly criticized Barack Obama and his various stimulus, health-care, and budget plans for relying on top-down diktats while taking more taxpayer money and grabbing more power. Their argument is that people in their own communities know best how to manage their needs and their budgets, and that’s certainly true.
So why doesn’t that apply to a primary contest in Florida? Even more so, why doesn’t that apply to an open primary, in which the incumbent is not running? Jazz Shaw wonders why both parties seem to fear primaries, and then answers his own question:
In Florida it’s a bit of a muddled picture. As soon as Gov. Charlie Christ decided that he was running for Senate, the RNC threw its weight, money and arm-twisting power behind him. Unfortunately, this was before anyone really stopped to consider what that might mean to state house speaker Marco Rubio, who is also eying that Senate seat with a hungry look on his face.
Here comes the interesting dynamic for you political junkies. Crist is the moderate, more in the mold of mavericky John McCain, let’s say. Rubio is the fire and brimstone conservative. Should the state party and their primary voters be left to make the choice they like best? Or might the national party be in a “Mama knows best” mode and need to have a say in it? My heart tells me the former, but the pragmatic side of my brain may be leaning the other way.
Jazz seems to think that paternalism works, and perhaps it does, but that certainly conflicts with the message the GOP has been sending since January. Crist may have an easier time holding the seat against a Democrat than Rubio; unlike the Speaker, Crist has already won a state-wide election. One can understand why the national GOP and the NRSC would want to get Crist into the race.
However, primary elections allow voters to hold politicians accountable and to force office seekers to acknowledge the electorate rather than just party bosses. If Crist can’t beat Rubio in a primary, then perhaps Crist isn’t a good candidate for a general election, either. Florida Republicans might want to feel as though they have something to do with choosing their representative in the US Senate, and not the NRSC’s fair-haired boy. Even if Crist is the best man in a general election, the national GOP is doing everything they can to demotivate Florida Republicans by taking even the pretense of a local choice out of their hands.
The national party should never have issued an endorsement in the primary, especially with their newfound emphasis on federalism and local control of government. The Democrat, ironically, rightly highlights the hypocrisy.









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The Brits are revolting against Big O’s tax plans. Americans will not be able to open bank accounts in England. He’s crumbling.
Key West Reader on May 24, 2009 at 12:30 PM
Because everyone knows that the folks at the 19th hole are in control. It isn’t some grand conspiracy, it just is the way it is. They built themselves an ivory tower and by God they will exercise their rights to control access to it.
Limerick on May 24, 2009 at 12:32 PM
RNC is sitting out this one. It’s the NRSC that’s doing the damage. Yes, the national GOP needs to butt out of this election.
Marco Rubio is Presidential material, if rightly groomed. He’s attractive, young and with all the right convictions. he’s coming to the correct position on immigration too. Sorry but fake-tan Charlie is gonna have his butt kicked out in the primary next year.
promachus on May 24, 2009 at 12:33 PM
For now, I’m still a registered Republican but I have already printed my voter registration form to switch to Independent. But that means I cannot participate in the Primaries.
Rubio is favored over Crist who is viewed as a RINO ala John McCain. We could give a rat’s a@@ what the RNC does.
Key West Reader on May 24, 2009 at 12:33 PM
At this point im inclined to agree with those here that want to see the real firebrand types (the types that always win primaries, as primary voters are by and large the more ideological and active than voters in a general) win primaries. I don’t think that’ll help the party’s chances of gaining any more seats, as the orthodox firebrand conservative message just does not resonate with everyone, but we can put the debate to rest once and for all by actually seeing it through.
let the firebrands win the primaries, run them against democrats in the general, see what happens. i’ll be glad to change my tune if it turns out an arch-conservative can beat a democrat in a statewide general.
ernesto on May 24, 2009 at 12:36 PM
Rubio….Rubio…sounds familiar….oh yes…didn’t he have an incident with Peter Pan?
BobMbx on May 24, 2009 at 12:36 PM
Yup…never learn. Moderates, are why they lose.
capejasmine on May 24, 2009 at 12:37 PM
More importantly, Moderates are the reason that the Dems have such power in Washington… it only takes a very few to both kill any chance of a Senate Filibuster…
and it only takes a very few to give them the “Bipartisan” cover they want…
Romeo13 on May 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM
Do people in small town USA or anywhere really want Washington DC overlords?
Speakup on May 24, 2009 at 12:46 PM
Thanks for writing about this, Ed. It truly does reek of top-down elitism.
For those who haven’t seen the video of Marco Rubio’s farewell speech, it is a must see, posted at Hot Air previously, here.
Loxodonta on May 24, 2009 at 12:47 PM
Now… what’s that definition of insanity again…???
katy on May 24, 2009 at 12:47 PM
I’m not sure there’s a proper analogy with top-down mandates a la Obama, but still, the NRSC’s strategy of meddling in primaries is really, really dumb and counter-productive. Stay the heck out of there and support the winner.
Attila (Pillage Idiot) on May 24, 2009 at 12:47 PM
Proper analogy?
No Moderate Left Behind?
Romeo13 on May 24, 2009 at 12:50 PM
What will it take for people to tell the Republican Party to get bent? The Party has been telling conservatives to get bent for several years now and continues to do so despite being begged and pleaded with to return to their conservative roots and getting their asses kicked in elections.
King of the Britons on May 24, 2009 at 12:51 PM
Ed, don’t paint this top-down/bottom-up theme with too broad a brush. There are areas where the national party should be involved in local happenings and areas where they should butt out. The party ought to declare, from the top-down, that primaries are only open to Republicans. That would be a reasonable and necessary rule coming from the national party.
The problem, here, is not that the national party is getting involved in a primary, but that they are backing the wrong person. That is a mistake of judgment, not of scale.
progressoverpeace on May 24, 2009 at 12:52 PM
The nrsc is as bad as the msm trying to give us who we should vote for. We got dear john because of the msm and from what I have read, Crist is a rino also. That is why I will not give one penny to the nrsc but to a candidate that thinks like me.
L
letget on May 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM
I don’t think it matters that much.
Florida primary voters will ultimately decide who wins. And since they’re more moderate, I expect Crist will ultimately come out on top.
therightwinger on May 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM
Ed Morrissey: If Crist can’t beat Rubio in a primary, then perhaps Crist isn’t a good candidate for a general election, either.
Crist’s election chances might also be affected by the outcome of the Florida Supreme Court decision questioning whether Crist violated the state constitution.
High court takes up fight between Crist, JNC
Loxodonta on May 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM
I just read the Wiki on Mr. Crist and he sounds even more conservative than I am, and I count myself as pretty conservative.
Supporting concealed carry in the workplace isn’t what I would call a moderate position, unless you count the destruction of the right of an employer to control the firearms brought onto his property a leftist position.
With respect to climate change, I don’t think there’s any science pro or con which proves things one way or the other, so a person has to do what their conscience says is right. While I disbelieve the studies indicating that global climate change (to use the new leftist phraseology to cover both global warming and global cooling) is human caused, I am being far more careful about my use of carbon-dioxide derived energy, even though I can’t manage to inhale without exhaling yet, and my eventually-to-be-constructed “taj garage” will have solar panels.
On a side note, I never did hear what the parties did when Florida moved its primary date. What they did (seating all of Florida’s delegates) seemed to be answer how the Democrats avoided having Florida’s voters having to write in Obama, since Obama, as loser of the primary there, would not have appeared on the printed ballot without a declaration from Florida Democratic Party officials. Those officials certainly would not have been in the mood to do so had their votes been denied at the Democratic convention; the national Democratic Party would have lost this game of chicken, since Florida state electoral law only recognizes the State party as authoritative.
unclesmrgol on May 24, 2009 at 1:03 PM
I’m with the national party on this one. What we need is definitely another “Republican” who will parrot the agenda of Barack Obama!
Lehosh on May 24, 2009 at 1:03 PM
Rock and hard place for the GOP. Back Rubio, the conservative espousing GOP principles, and ernesto is criticizing the GOP for supporting firebrands. Back Crist, the squishy, Obama-lapdogging something-or-other, and ernesto is criticizing the GOP for supporting middle-aged White men over Hispanics.
What is the more principled position for a party reaching out to those outside the stereotypical demographic that Dems keep heaping on it?
I’ll answer: Rubio.
Thanks for the input, ernesto. In a choice between a younger starting pitcher who may be a little wild, but can deliver the heat, and an older starting pitcher who is limp-armed and probably gets me only five innings at best, I’m going with the younger guy. And I hope he throws you and other liberals some chin music.
BuckeyeSam on May 24, 2009 at 1:09 PM
If you talk to Florida conservatives, I think they will tell you that Crist’s actione speak louder than his words (or what a supporter wrote on Wikipedia).
John Cornyn is the one to blame for the RNSC support. He also announced plans to suppert Specter over Toomey before Specter jumped ship. Cornyn must go.
bw222 on May 24, 2009 at 1:10 PM
Does the name Gov. Sarah Palin ring a bell?
bw222 on May 24, 2009 at 1:12 PM
Maybe. I think of it more as the Washington Post veto.
Attila (Pillage Idiot) on May 24, 2009 at 1:13 PM
Global warming idiocy is more dangerous to modern society than pretty much anything. Anyone who subscribes to the global warming idiocy is a dangerous person, especially in light of the fact that these fools have no idea what they are talking about. But they are ready to destroy our economy for their stupidity and to appear “cool”.
There are a few deal-breaker positions and global warming insanity is one of them.
progressoverpeace on May 24, 2009 at 1:14 PM
There is no hope for the Repub party until all the leadership at the national and D.C. levels are replaced. No one buys their shtick any longer. These are the folks that blew a historic opportunity to reform government during the prior ten years.
Welcome to the wilderness and eight years of the Obama administration where he will attempt to remake government in the New, New Deal. That is just a glimpse of how great was the Repub failure.
The only hope now is for the party to renounce the leadership that caused this mess and slowly regain seats in the House and Senate over the next three elections prior to 2016. With folks like Rubio touting small government in all things coinciding with fiscal restraint, gains will be made.
However if the leadership remains the repubs hopes are based solely on Dem failures rather than Repub successes.
patrick neid on May 24, 2009 at 1:15 PM
So, Toomey and Specter all over again?
I don’t know if this Florida contest is that polarized, in terms of the RINO Poster Child versus upright/downright/true-Right conservatism. It may not be valid to draw heroic conclusions from it. Crist, having been elected to statewide office, wanting to follow Martinez, who got elected statewide, isn’t necessarily a matter of the RNC swooping in to force something on Floridians they wouldn’t have chosen themselves.
From my memory, Crist is a bit more conservative than Mel Martinez, although you wouldn’t call Crist a movement conservative, by any means. Neither of them is a movement conservative.
But Florida voted them both into major office. I’d want to hear from the grassroots in Florida before deciding that the RNC was unfairly throwing its weight behind a RINO, when the real people in the state wanted Rubio. I did hear that from folks in Pennsylvania back during the Toomey-Specter face-off.
J.E. Dyer on May 24, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Here is the problem with that money, and it is also the key to Rubio defeating Crist in the primary: That money is the money of the old country club republicans. It is the money of influence and corruption. It is the money of big business, and open borders illegal alien cheap labor.
If Mr. Rubio ran ads in the paper and on the television telling it like it is about his opponent and that money, he would defeat him easily, and have a very strong head wind going into the contest against a democratic opponent.
This was after all what the tea parties were truly about, it was about the exclusivtey of the two parties, and the top down dirty corrupt politics they both have enforced upon is.
paulsur on May 24, 2009 at 1:21 PM
As near as I can tell, Crist is a fiscal conservative, but may not be conservative on other issues.
The CATO Institute (October 20, 2008):
Yet, Conservative activists question Charlie Crist’s commitment to core GOP values
Is Governor Crist is more of a libertarian conservative?
Loxodonta on May 24, 2009 at 1:29 PM
I believe that there is a satisfactory solution to this issue. If the Republican Party is worried that the Republican voters are out of touch with mainstream voters–a concern I strongly share–then the Party shouldn’t be funding moderates. Instead, it needs to spend money promoting voting in the primaries. Not only will this encourage candidates who better appeal to the moderates who actually decide elections, it will increase the numbers of people loyal to the GOP. Even better, the intolerant parts of the GOP base would be unable to protest encouraging more people to vote.
thuja on May 24, 2009 at 1:51 PM
Crist’s “lack of support for a state constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage” may have something to do with sexual orientation. It’s better not to appear a hypocrite like Senators Craig and Vitter on marriage issues.
thuja on May 24, 2009 at 1:54 PM
Crist is about as inspiring as a once-wet cardboard box stuck to a garage floor.
Rubio is more than just an upgrade.
Barrack on May 24, 2009 at 1:57 PM
By the way, instead of Cornyn and the NRSC throwing its money behind a sitting Republican governor who they think is way ahead for the Senate seat, why not support Pat Toomey in Pennsylvania, who could use a little support right about now?
Barrack on May 24, 2009 at 1:57 PM
For the record id never do something like harp on Crist supporters because they’re not backing a hispanic. ive had my fun joking about sotomayor because shes a boriqua from the bronx, but id never oppose a crist outright simply because hes not hispanic…
ernesto on May 24, 2009 at 1:58 PM
How much of a ‘fiscal conservative’ can Crist be if he supported the Porkulus bill? Controlling governmetal spending needs to occur at every level, including local.
First order of business is to get people thinking about all the substantial things the government does that it should not because there are private solutions. Locally, our last bond election was 60% Parks and Recreation… in a recession and with declining house evaluations. And it passed; just plain nuts.
michaelo on May 24, 2009 at 1:59 PM
In a red state like Alaska maybe. A deep purple one like PA or FL? hmm…
ernesto on May 24, 2009 at 1:59 PM
If I thought for even one second that Republicans we even 20% different than Democrats by weight or volume I might give a dam. But, this last administration and election showed me that Republicans are a joke. Maybe not as funny a joke as Democrats but a joke nonetheless.
watson007 on May 24, 2009 at 2:02 PM
It is a bit hypocritical.
The Republicans want to eject moderates but at the same time they are so afraid of losing a seat that they are willing to compromise the position they are toying with lightly…that of defining republican ideals as conservative and attempting to attract those that agree with some or all of those ideals to the Republican party?
Maybe the Republicans really DON’T want to define themselves by conservative ideals and want to continue down the same path they have been, basically calling themselves conservatives then acting like RINOs and liberals when they get into office.
This seems to be the message here. If this is the way they are going to go, they might as well just quit now, lay down, and die because they will fail in epic fashion.
They need to learn that people are watching, and we’re not all stupid.
Spiritk9 on May 24, 2009 at 2:07 PM
Politicians have a tendency to stray when they stick a finger in the popular winds for guidance.
I too wonder just how fiscally conservative Crist can really be, given his support for Porkulus. If he does make it to the Senate, how will he then be able to reverse his support for such vast government expansion to do the very difficult work that’s needed to trim the deficit? Cut defense spending? Raise taxes? Or, stick a finger in the wind to see what’s most popular with campaign contributors or voters?
I prefer politicians who have a rudder of guiding principles, rather than just a wind sail.
Loxodonta on May 24, 2009 at 2:08 PM
Crist is not even a moderate. He is a progressive, power-hungry, failed governor who is looking to suck off the federal teat for himself as a senator and nothing more.
Cornyn are you listening??? Steele are you listening???
No money. No volunteer hours. Nothing. Absolutely Nothing.
Quit foisting Specter type loser ‘republicans’ on us.
Branch Rickey on May 24, 2009 at 2:10 PM
arlen spector, olympia snowe and lincoln chaffee
peacenprosperity on May 24, 2009 at 2:10 PM
+ 1,000,000!!! :)
Branch Rickey on May 24, 2009 at 2:17 PM
The RNC and NRSC have gone the way of the unions. They were established by the people to pool their power and self determination. That was then. Now they are no longer a focal point of the people but rather an entity of their own. Now they do not answer to those that created them, working on the members interests. The Unions and Party Establishments protect only themselves and work for their own interests.
- The Cat
MirCat on May 24, 2009 at 2:19 PM
I have said this before but on Friday I will change my affiliation from Independent to Republican in Florida so that I can vote for for Mr. Rubio in the primary. Charlie Crist was shameful in his support for the stimulus package instead of making the hard decisions within the state to get it’s budget on an even keel. He has stated that had he been in the Senate at the time he would have voted for it. He is also getting read to face a big test with the current budget since the legislature has taken 6 million dollars out of the Concealed Carry Weapons Fund to balance the budget. Although legally the fund is to be used only for that purpose, the department is suffering huge backlogs but no money has been used from the trust fund to remedy the problem. Instead 6 of the 8 million dollars is going into general funding. That’s a pretty big hit and everyone is watching Gov. Crist to see if he vetoes it. It could be a make or break decision.
Cindy Munford on May 24, 2009 at 4:00 PM
Micheal Steele needs to launch a night of the penknives and drive these national RINO leaders out, close the primaries, and let the GOP be the party of the grassroots, outside DC.
Only then can we reap the hurricane that is coming with the imploding economy.
You do NOT want to be an insider at all in 2010 or 2012.
Sapwolf on May 24, 2009 at 4:42 PM
Has the RNC or the NRSC said anyting about open primaries? If that problem doesn’t get fixed we’re just going to get the candidate the Dems want again and this time there will be a viable 3rd party run. I guarantee you that every liberal taunting with, “Yeah please nominate Sarah Palin” will not dare vote for her in a primary…
CCRWM on May 24, 2009 at 4:55 PM
This is the reason that all fund raising requests from NRSC, NRCC or the RNC go immediately in the trash. We got McCain courtesy of the RNC and the NYT. I will not support either one. I WILL however, support conservative organizations.
oldleprechaun on May 24, 2009 at 5:04 PM
I am an agnostic on Rubio versus Crist but I do have a question for those criticizing Cornyn and the NRSC. If (and I say IF!) these guys are supposed to go out and recruit candidates, how can they do it if they refuse to support them after they agree to run?
KW64 on May 24, 2009 at 5:20 PM
I want to have the right to vote for Rubio!!!
jatfla on May 24, 2009 at 5:43 PM
Your point in retrospect is obvious, but I hadn’t thought about it. Either I’m stupid or people miss obvious points like this all the time.
thuja on May 24, 2009 at 6:00 PM
If you’re talking about the cuban children that were brought to the US then no, he was born in Miami.
HeavyHair on May 24, 2009 at 6:02 PM
Florida primaries are already CLOSED so only registered Republicans can vote.
I’ve lived in Florida for the last 30+ years and suffered through some of the crappiest govs and supported some of the best.
I do NOT want Crist representing Florida in the Senate EVER. He turned into such a pathetic Obama lapdog regarding the stimulus that he left drool marks across the state. He is a supreme opportunist.
Agreed. Rubio FTW.
Kirin on May 24, 2009 at 6:11 PM
You mean those intolerant of the rights of unborn children would be unable to protest? Awesome! I’m sick to death of their intolerance towards those of us who value human life.
pannw on May 24, 2009 at 6:46 PM
This former FL registered Republican may have to re-register back to “R” for this primary to help Rubio beat Crist. Crist is a Obama-loving, stimulus-grabbing, MM climate change-believing RINO!!! We were fooled once by electing him governor. We will not be fooled twice!
Dandapani on May 24, 2009 at 7:10 PM
Rubio is the Real Deal — its people like this we should be holding up as standard barriers for the party not undermining them in primaries.
Crist is another step in the direction of being a permanent minority….the country sees Democrat-Lite, Republicans and figures the party is dead.
We need to put a spotlight on the differences between men like Rubio and the petulant children running the country right now…..Crist will go along to get along leaving us pulling out our hair for SIX YEARS
Im in Pennsylvania but sending all my contacts in Florida on the mission of getting Rubio’s name out. Ive heard the guy speak on a number of occasions and he is the real deal.
Rubio would be the kind of leader we need in Washington, Crist will be Arlen Spector.
The NRSC needs to start listening to us down here in the trenches or eventually something has to give….
alecj on May 24, 2009 at 7:47 PM
All progressives must go, including Crist.
He will probably dump his wife for Bwarney if he gets to DC anyway.
See ya, wouldn`t want to be ya.
Jayrae on May 24, 2009 at 9:06 PM
Rubio seems like the real deal. I will see him next month in Orlando at the “Family Cafe”. I hope to get to ask him a few questions.
I voted for Crist but he has been a big disappointment. His endorsement of the stimulus standing beside Obama was the last straw.
I’m finding more about Rubio
Nelsa on May 24, 2009 at 9:34 PM
Support conservative candidates with your donations, not the RNC or the NRSL. Cut them off.
Christian Conservative on May 24, 2009 at 11:05 PM
Stuff the message that the GOP beltway insiders have been sending since January. They had better wake up to the message we voters are sending, or else!
DannoJyd on May 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM
Allah was wondering if he should allow GOP candidates post here. I now believe it would be a great idea as it would allow us to tell them our opinions.
It really seems that they still aren’t getting our messages. Not at all.
DannoJyd on May 24, 2009 at 11:20 PM
Every time I get an NRSC fund raising letter, I send it back with black sharpie marked across it, ZERO DOLLARS BECAUSE YOU SUPPORT RINOS. Then I put it in their postage paid envelope and mail it back to them.
More people should do that and also donate directly to the conservatives in the primaries. Maybe they would get a clue in Washington.
karenhasfreedom on May 25, 2009 at 1:44 AM
The more RINOS and backstabbing McCain-lite crapweasels they nominate, the more money I save. They won’t get my money or my vote. F**k ‘em.
austinnelly on May 25, 2009 at 2:44 AM
Are you still a little unfocused from the vacation, Captain? Your logic skills are not as sharp as usual.
The NRSC endorsement of Crist (and not “Christ” as in the Shaw quote) is vulnerable to valid criticism of many kinds. I oppose it strongly. It is not, however, a good example of a hypocritical government “power grab” which undermines federalism.
Simply, the NRSC is not government; it is an independent nonprofit organization. Its actions cannot support or undermine federalism because it operates in a completely separate legal domain, that of private business. When it makes decisions on how to spend money, it does so as a private organization. By your comparison, then, a company that chooses to move a factory from one state to another is undermining federalism because it subverts local control. The NRSC made a funding decision for its own reasons, by its own logic, just as other organizations do every day. Criticize the reasoning and logic (loudly, please), but please do not be fooled into seeing this as hypocritical of a political philosophy.
Moreover, your comparison misunderstands the fundamental objection to creeping federal mandates. The argument is not that people in their own communities “know best.” Rather, federalism is based in arguments of freedom and liberty that are enshrined in our Constitution. It is an assertion that fundamental political power rests in the States, not in the Federal government. Mandates are objectionable because they come from the Federal domain, and seek to control the State domain without consent. This is a fundamental subversion of liberty.
The “local communities know best” argument is a red herring, and a dangerous one that conservatives should avoid. If authority is based in knowledge, then authority will inevitably gravitate to the Federal level. A central government will always have superior access to resources and information, compared with a local authority. Therefore, an appeal for authority based mainly on knowledge will slip toward a Technocracy, which is exactly what President Obama is doing. Technocrats will always seem reasonable, logical and high-minded, but they do so at the expense of freedom.
Central governments may have superior resources and information, but conservatives should oppose their accretion of power on the basis of the power itself. If we abandon the base of liberty, we lose.
blueguitarbob on May 25, 2009 at 11:23 AM
This is why I no longer donate to the GOP or NRSC! I only donate directly to the candidate I believe wholds the values i most agree with.
lwssdd on May 25, 2009 at 1:22 PM