Even when Bill Ayers and Obama spent millions and millions of dollars on a small number of public screwls in Chicago, it had absolutely no measurable effect of doing any better than without all the money.
UNREPENTANT CONSERVATIVE CAPITOLIST on May 22, 2009 at 8:22 PM

Do you really think for even one minute that money Obama and Ayers had control over in Chicago actually went to programs that benefited kids in schools? That’s not what I heard and read. I don’t live there or have followed the news there during that time, but what I know about the two of them, it doesn’t seem likely they would do anything other than what was reported (that I read) which was use money to further promote socialist agendas in the Chicago area schools.

We already know that won’t work, no news there.

Greef on May 22, 2009 at 11:42 AM

I totally disagree with you on a number of points, the first and most important being results.If you think that money is the only thing keeping schools from succeeding, you are only kidding yourself. Chicago spends more per student than alot of places, and they have a 50% dropout rate. This is due to parenting , not education. Even when Bill Ayers and Obama spent millions and millions of dollars on a small number of public screwls in Chicago, it had absolutely no measurable effect of doing any better than without all the money.

What is needed is cultural change.People actually being responsible for themselves and their children, not allowing the nanny state to take care of everything.When the nanny state is allowed to raise your children, the nanny state only looks out for it’s own perpetuation, not the welfare and well being of the students. If actual competetion is allowed into the school system, then you will see actual change in results.
Please also take a look at this http://www.capenet.org/facts.html

nice post Dr.Zero

As for testing. When my son took the tests, he scored very high in math the first year, not so great the next year. His scores were all over the place. Turns out that he wasn’t really answering the test questions, but he was trying to make a cool pattern on his answer sheet. So much for nationally weighted test scores.

I was homeschooled myself, so naturally I’m a fan, but it’d be interesting to get your take on it, since you’ve mentioned private schools and all.

TheQuestion on May 22, 2009 at 1:37 PM

I’m tremendously impressed by the dedication of homeschoolers and the academic achievements of homeschooled children. They’re one of the reasons I’m so strongly opposed to pouring billions into the failed public education system, and the massive union political apparatus that feeds off it. Homeschoolers have invested tremendous amounts of their own time and money to escape from the poor performance and cultural indoctrination of government schools. Forcing them to continue to pay taxes to fund those schools is tyrannical.

If choice was introduced into education, and the government was kept out of dictating curricula to captive student bodies, perhaps some homeschoolers would find schools that share their values and academic standards appearing in their area. Others might choose to continue home schooling, and would now have additional resources because they would no longer be forced to subsidize the government schools they pulled their children out of.

Looking to the government for our solutions? Homeschool your kids now and protect them from leftist indoctrination today. Train critical thinkers on your own.

AZ_Redneck on May 22, 2009 at 1:57 PM

I’d like to stop paying confiscatory tax rates to fund the government solutions, so that we can devote our resources to finding our own. Homeschooling takes great effort and sacrifice on the part of the parents who do it. Our government should not be in the business of bleeding people dry to indoctrinate their kids in shoddy public schools, then treating them like suckers if they decide to give up huge portions of their own time to give their kids a decent education on their own. We shouldn’t expect them to tan their own shoe leather or churn their own butter, either. I thought this was supposed to be an advanced economy. It should have an advanced educational system.

I was educated in public schools myself, and I had some teachers that were so good I still honor their names every time I write something. I had some teachers that were bored, mediocre time-servers. I had some that aggressively worked to indoctrinate the children into political agendas. All of them were given roughly the same rewards and incentives by the government school system. A privatized educational system will create an environment where teachers can flourish, and good teachers receive the rewards they deserve.

Oh but if we privatize schools, they can’t be forced to teach propoganda, that is partisan. No more warping the minds of the young, into wanting to adopt slavery as their future profession.

I agree with your commentary, but what you propose, takes power, and control away from Obama, and that’s the exact opposite, of what he wants.

capejasmine on May 22, 2009 at 1:42 PM

I know it’s something the Democrats would fight tooth and nail. I say make them fight. Make them explain exactly why we can’t do this. Make them explain it over, and over, and over again, until voters get tired of hearing them and give them a lesson in privatization, by sending them back into the private sector.

He’d get 70% of the vote in 2012 and the GOP wouldn’t even bother to field a candidate.

But, he’s a moron, so we are stuck with $25,000 to make our kids dumb.

Anyone for homeschooling?

My folks live near Gaston, NC where there is a KIPP school. I believe this is a federal grant program. I have not done all of my research, but they have 100% of their graduates be accepted to college.

This is a dirt poor area. Mostly black children.

100%

They do throw a few out every year for breaking too many rules but this is a very low percentage, I think.

The gist I get is that they have very dedicated teaching professionals.

As I said, I need to do more research but I think this shows what can be done and illustrates that the govrnment doesn’t really want to educate our children. It takes dedicated individuals.

A criminal act took place, and unfortunately, no one has the power or desire to actually voice what really happened and name the suspects.

Mr. Soros, how do you plead?

Well done.

I do agree with Ejasz’s idea as I had a similar thought some years ago.

None of your seven proposals are even close to what I suggested here (some of my numbers were off from changing from another city to Wash. DC, but the concept is clear).

The testing mechanism is the set of international standardized tests that everyone pointing at education loves to bemoan: you want those standards higher, then we use those as the calibration system.

The goal is not State to State competition, but against the #1 slot globally, whichever country that is. Any student that meets that standard gets a full payout to those providing their education.

Whether it’s an international standard or state-to-state, if you tie money or favoritism to a test score, the schools will always teach to test. Which is not good.

There should be a national standard (as a general goal), but it should not effect money, tests, or influence. It should just be a guideline for where the states should be aiming for. Federal funds should be dispersed only to the proportion of student population per state

The concept is ‘pay for performance’: if you want better performance then pay for those that achieve it and that will stimulate those doing education to look at HOW that is achieved, be it school districts, parochial schools or home schoolers.
…
No performance? No payout. Not up to snuff? Proportional payout to what is achieved per student.

ajacksonian on May 22, 2009 at 2:43 PM

So…school that are on the very bottom will get almost no money…I agree that increasing federal funds doesn’t help educate children…but how is a school that’s utterly failing going to do better with a dramatically slashed source of revenue?

The phrase “Eliminate the Department of Education” should never be used as a starting point for education reform. Layout new methods that are effective for public education, give parents the choice to opt-out with vouchers, and if the methods are successful…continue to reduce federal influence until you can completely eliminate the department.

Like to know where you drew that conclusion. My information comes from participation and experience in the home school community. More than you know pool together. We swap books, material and time “for the children”.

From every single study that has evaluated home schooling. It exists, but is a very small percentage of the total population.

Regarding money; check the priorities. Have a cell phone? Have cable? Get the new boat? New car? Going to Disneyland, again? Eating out lately?

Priorities checked…many still can’t do it financially.

Regarding parents as educators; anyone can do it and do a better job.

AZ_Redneck on May 22, 2009 at 2:59 PM

I’ll agree to disagree. There are a lot of parents out there who don’t see themselves as good teachers, but yes, would be an excellent teacher. I don’t think anyone can do it and do a better job though.

http://www.hslda.org/

Get you kids out of the leftist indoctrination camps.
Teach them critical thinking.
Find it interesting how they love their teachers.

Privatizing education is not looking to the government…

While everyone sits around awaiting for their voucher check to take action? That is looking to the government in my eye.

Vouchers give the means for parents to educate their children in the home and/or private school.

I and many, many others didn’t wait for the crumbs, in the form of a voucher, to fall from the table. My personal beliefs prevail and I act. I believe the situation to be that dire.

“Let the parents pool together”? They can do that now and a very small percentage do it.

Like to know where you drew that conclusion. My information comes from participation and experience in the home school community. More than you know pool together. We swap books, material and time “for the children”.

Sometimes it’s money and sometimes the parents know they aren’t good educators.

Regarding money; check the priorities. Have a cell phone? Have cable? Get the new boat? New car? Going to Disneyland, again? Eating out lately?

Regarding parents as educators; anyone can do it and do a better job. Take a look what the “professionals” have wrought. The “professionals” at private schools don’t fare much better. Parents that believe they aren’t good educators … examine it closely … you will find it is an excuse because the choice will effect their lifestyle and they don’t really want to be inconvenienced. Why can I say that? Because at one time, I used to think I might not be a good educator.

The testing mechanism is the set of international standardized tests that everyone pointing at education loves to bemoan: you want those standards higher, then we use those as the calibration system.

The goal is not State to State competition, but against the #1 slot globally, whichever country that is. Any student that meets that standard gets a full payout to those providing their education. Only when the US goes to the #1 slot does it turn into an intra-State competition.

The concept is ‘pay for performance’: if you want better performance then pay for those that achieve it and that will stimulate those doing education to look at HOW that is achieved, be it school districts, parochial schools or home schoolers.

Another rate to use is the one that really shocked the US on poor Johnny not being able to read. That has been rock steady since the publication of that work in 1958 (if memory serves) and has been an independent result that has not been influenced by spending. It is, in fact, constant. Nothing done has changed it Nationally. If you want 100% literacy in the schools, pay for those students who are literate and can demonstrate it on any form of reading and writing exam that requires long hand written responses.

The concept is simple: set the metric (which can vary but is not of necessity set by the US or is 100% of something, say literacy or knowledge of three basic sciences at a passing grade out of a suite of four or five). No performance? No payout. Not up to snuff? Proportional payout to what is achieved per student. That shifts the emphasis from teaching to the test to teaching the students, not just warehousing them in schools for a number of years. Easily done by removing the Dept. of Education, which has failed, and cutting block grants.

Oh, and students who EXCEED 100% or the goal, get a higher recompense to those who taught them: we pay for excellence proportionately.

I’m all for it and getting government and bureaucrats who waste money on useless programs out of the system. If you complain about lack of achievement you cite the standard and agree that this is what our children and our Nation need to be held up to on the education front. Complainers who do not offer ways forward are purely negative critics. Those who offer better ways forward enrich our public life, give us different viewpoints and allow us to try other ways of doing things that are not hidebound to any ideology. Doesn’t mean they are good ideas, or workable, but trying to offer better is what the Republic is about.

Looking to the government for our solutions?

Privatizing education is not looking to the government…the very definition is getting government out of the equation. Vouchers is also not looking to the government for solutions, it’s simply saying “give me back a small portion of taxes I pay for public education and let me be on my way.”

Also, we don’t need to provide vouchers, let the parents pool together and educate their own.

AZ_Redneck on May 22, 2009 at 1:57 PM

Vouchers give the means for parents to educate their children in the home and/or private school. “Let the parents pool together”? They can do that now and a very small percentage do it. Sometimes it’s money and sometimes the parents know they aren’t good educators.

Giving them a small portion of what it costs to educate their child in public education will present opportunities for all non-public education methods.

I’d like to see a post with links to the amount of money the federal gov’t pays to DC schools vs. how much the voucher program cost.

MamaAJ on May 22, 2009 at 2:15 PM

From Andrew Coulson at Cato:

“This week, education secretary Arne Duncan referred to DC public schools as a district with “more money than God.” Perhaps he was thinking of the $24,600 total per-pupil spending figure I reported last year in the Washington Post and on this blog. If so, he’s low-balling the number. With the invaluable help of my research assistant Elizabeth Li, I’ve just calculated the figure for the current school year. It is $26,555 per pupil.

According to the official study of the DC voucher program, the average voucher amount is less than $6,000.”

jonknee on May 22, 2009 at 2:18 PM

You know, I think the wizard might still have some brains left over from when he helped the scarecrow. He might let you have them if you ask nicely.

It’s much higher than that in some areas, most notably Washington, D.C., which spends a whopping $25,000.00 per student.

But vouchers are too expensive? I’d like to see a post with links to the amount of money the federal gov’t pays to DC schools vs. how much the voucher program cost.

I read an interesting book (available to read online) written by John Taylor Gatto

I just started reading his new “Weapons of Mass Instruction”. Could have done without some liberal ranting in the beginning of it, but I’d definitely recommend his works if you want to start questioning the whole system, not just how well the system is working.

Mr. President, it’s time to privatize education.

Looking to the government for our solutions? Homeschool your kids now and protect them from leftist indoctrination today. Train critical thinkers on your own.

Of course, we would need to provide educational vouchers for lower-income citizens, so some educational taxes would still need to be collected… but the federal government current spends over $9000 per year, on average, to educate each student.

First, the US Constitution is not a welfare pact. Abolish the Department of Education today. Also, we don’t need to provide vouchers, let the parents pool together and educate their own. Second, we home school our kids and can do it for around $300 a head … easy. I know parents that do it for less. Just takes a parent unselfish enough to give up some of their “personal time”.

what are the results at my house? I have a 12 year old doing high school algebra and economics. I have a 10 year old that can play a piano like no one’s business and I have to take her books away to get her to clean her room. I have a 7 year old doing 4th grade work. I am not trying to raise Princeton ready kids by any measure, they just absorb this stuff like little sponges.

Once the govt seizes control, it never relinquishes it. Ever
brak on May 22, 2009 at 11:46 AM.

Disagree. My kids love history. They were telling me a story about a group of rebels that told a king they could govern themselves. Worked out well for about 250 years … until the children of the rebels started letting the aristocrats run the place for them and passed their kids to strangers under the guise of receiving “education”.

The issue of education really hits home in this area because I grew up on a reservation. I recently toured the school I attended K-12 and was in awe of their state-of-the-art physics and chemistry facilities they had on the rez.

Unfortunately Physics and Chemistry are not required classes, so these magnificent rooms have remained unused for several years.

10 miles away, off the rez, my children attend a public school where they aren’t necessarily hurting for money, but do not have anything near the facilities that go unused at my alma-mater.

Beyond the obvious, the difference in the schools is astounding. The school my children attend is one of the best in the area, and people pull their students from the rez and bring them here for a better education.

Parents here are heavily involved with the school and their children’s education not only because their tax dollars go directly to the schools coffers, but because the childs future is at stake.

I think liberals want to sell Americans on the wonderful temptations of having everything provided for you, without any of the downside.

Reservation, here we come!