Everyone who disputes Catholic doctrine loves to throw out the Scripture and where is it meme. Show me in Scripture they say, this is extra-Biblical they say, where is support for that in the Bible they say.

Well, where in the Bible, anywhere old nor new, does it say that only Scripture is a valid record of belief? Where in Scripture does it say that it is only through Scripture that one can find the way to salvation?

It doesn’t. In Timothy it does say that Scripture is useful and should be read, but the Scripture of this verse is limited to the OT.

What I see is in John, he tells us that there are many more things that Jesus did that could fill the earth with books. I see Paul tell us that we should heed the traditions handed down by MOUTH or by written letter.

Also, where in Scripture does it tell us who is to interpret Scripture for us? The good book tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Which church would that be?

When you can answer this, I will entertain that men who founded their own churches over the last 500 years are better suited to interpret Scripture, hand down Tradition and determine the Sacraments.

You cited no Scripture that establishes a perpetual office of “Pope.”

TMK on May 20, 2009 at 7:12 PM

Nor did I cite any Catholic teaching. In your 2:47 post you questioned a “leap of logic”. I was responding to it from more of a logical than doctrinal perspective.

The organizational coherence of the RCC was integral to the spread of Christianity. Was the RCC architected by Jesus? As you point out, allowing that Peter was the foundation, the structure of what the church became is far beyond what scripture outlines.

Your conjecture that my points are sourced in dogma

dedalus on May 20, 2009 at 4:26 PM

You cited no Scripture that establishes a perpetual office of “Pope.”

Make that two Gospels and Acts of the Apostles.
Mike OMalley on May 20, 2009 at 4:57 PM

I thought Luke wrote Acts?

Good point about Paul’s training vs Peter’s.

Re: Paul. His role is crucial to the growth of the church. His writings probably survived due to the nature of his work which involved traveling among cities and corresponding back to churches he had established. Peter’s teaching was likely recorded in two epistles and a gospel, though because of how precarious the administration of the early church was.dedalus on May 20, 2009 at 4:26 PM

Make that two Gospels and Acts of the Apostles. See Paul on Trial: The Book of Acts as a Defense of Christianity by John W. Mauck

Besides Simon was a small business owner/manager and Saul was a Rabbi. They brought different skill sets to the table in their second careers as apostles Peter and Paul.

So instead of dealing with the problems I presented, you restate the already well-known position of the Catholic Church.

Until you start meditating on Scripture instead of regurgitating dogma, you might as well go back to burning guys like me at the stake to win your debates.

TMK on May 20, 2009 at 3:35 PM

Actually, I did deal with points A and B. Your conjecture that my points are sourced in dogma, that I haven’t meditated on scripture or that I look for heretics to burn are not supported by evidence.

Re: Paul. His role is crucial to the growth of the church. His writings probably survived due to the nature of his work which involved traveling among cities and corresponding back to churches he had established. Peter’s teaching was likely recorded in two epistles and a gospel, though because of how precarious the administration of the early church was.

Nothing like protestants to chime in on anything “Catholic.”

We Lutherans are with you on everything except the doctrine of Mary.

sabbott on May 20, 2009 at 3:28 PM

Actually your doctrine on the eucharist is not the same as the Catholics. There’s a difference between Roman Catholic transubstantiation and Lutheran consubstantiation. But your both wrong. :)

Peter is the foundation. The church is built upon him though it requires a succession of mortal men to run it.

Read 1 Peter 2. The “first pope” seems to disagree with you.

Jesus didn’t record his words or organize the editing and assembling of the written record of his words.

God did record the son’s words and did organize the editing because it wasn’t influenced by man but breathed of God.

A church was required to collect and interpret his teaching long after his death and the deaths of his apostles.

Spreading the word on a global basis requires some organizational infrastructure.

dedalus on May 20, 2009 at 3:11 PM

Yes but what has that to do with Rome’s claim that it alone can do it and its interpretations are final?

Bravo!

dedalus on May 20, 2009 at 3:11 PM

So instead of dealing with the problems I presented, you restate the already well-known position of the Catholic Church.

Until you start meditating on Scripture instead of regurgitating dogma, you might as well go back to burning guys like me at the stake to win your debates.

Here is what the church tells me is infallibly true.

The Ten Commandments
The Bible
Jesus is the son of God
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit
Mary is the Virgin Mother of Jesus and remained a virgin throughout her life.
Mary, due to being the mother of Jesus, is called the Mother of God.
Mary, was conceived without sin.
Mary, was assumed body and soul into heaven, by her son Jesus upon her death.
The Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Jesus.

And remember, Jesus promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against his church. He knew that his church would be attacked from without and undermined from within.
And it has. But, 2,000 years later, she is still here, still vibrant and still spreading the Gospel.

Jvette on May 20, 2009 at 12:45 PM

We Lutherans are with you on everything except the doctrine of Mary. It isn’t found in Scripture and therefore we reject it. We do not believe she was conceived without sin or that she was taken directly to heaven because God’s word does not speak to either question. It simply says she found favor with God. This statement was made about numerous other people in the Bible who were themselves sinners…

Not a point, however that would threaten one’s soul. We just don’t pray to Mary for intercession. Only to the Father in Jesus name…

Clearly, there are a lot of people commenting who aren’t Catholic and have no clue.

TMK on May 20, 2009 at 2:47 PM

Peter is the foundation. The church is built upon him though it requires a succession of mortal men to run it.

Jesus didn’t record his words or organize the editing and assembling of the written record of his words. A church was required to collect and interpret his teaching long after his death and the deaths of his apostles.

Spreading the word on a global basis requires some organizational infrastructure.

What is not often appreciated is that Fr. Theodore Hesburgh, President of Notre Dame was one of the very first of the American Catholic quislings to go over to the dark side.
.
One can learn how the population control movement brought the “respected” and “renowned” Fr. Hessberg to the highest point of the Temple and offered him the world in exchange for homage … here in the monumental academic study of the American Population Control and Eugenics Movement:
Intended Consequences: Birth Control, Abortion, and the Federal Government in Modern America, by Dr. Donald T. Critchlow
.
Fr. Hesburgh got a board of directors seat at Chase Manhattan Bank and a trustee position and later, chairmanship of the Rockefeller Foundation to boot!

..
see here also”:
Sympathy for the Devil: Obama and the University of ND

I don’t know why I give you the benefit of doubt, Tom; you never fail to demonstrate your stupidity. Are you seriously that unfamiliar with the Old Testament?

Jaibones on May 20, 2009 at 2:21 PM

Well if that’s the case…up with bigamy…down with ham sandwiches!!!

dominigan on May 20, 2009 at 2:06 PM

I know, I was just saying that even if Jesus said He was going to found His assembly upon Peter himself, how does that justify a never-ending progression of men to claim the mantle of “Foundation of the Church.”

What is missing from that leap of logic is:

a) Assuming Jesus said that Peter would be that foundation, where is the declaration that anyone else would be?
b) The idea that a church needs an endless supply of “foundations.”
c) If Jesus did in fact give Peter the Ultimate Authority, why is the majority of Scripture supplied by the Apostle Paul and other prophets, not Peter (including an instance of Peter being chastized for favoring Jews over Gentiles)?

So how did the Church change its stance on the death penalty in the 20th Century?

Tom_Shipley on May 20, 2009 at 12:06 PM

I don’t know why I give you the benefit of doubt, Tom; you never fail to demonstrate your stupidity. Are you seriously that unfamiliar with the Old Testament?

Here is what the church tells me is infallibly true.
…

Mary … remained a virgin throughout her life.

So what you’re saying is that either the Bible is wrong, they adopted a bunch of children, or there were many immaculate conceptions?

53When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55″Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57And they took offense at him.
But Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor.”

(Matthew 13:53-57)

I think I’ll stick with the Biblical account for my Christian faith. Unless you can backup your claims from the Bible…

Which show’s that their gods are liberalism, greed, and Chicago politcs. ( I know redundant x2 *shrug* )

Cadian on May 20, 2009 at 12:40 PM

Exactly right. Jenkins’s claims about his Catholic views are pure crap – his only God at Notre Dame is liberalism. He celebrated the color of Obama’s skin, not the content of his character, and the teachings of the Catholic Church had exactly zero to do with anything that happened there.