Obama at Notre Dame: Hey, let’s be open-minded about child murder

posted at 6:43 pm on May 17, 2009 by Allahpundit

As expected, a heaping scoopful of pap about tolerance and dialogue aimed at defusing the issue ahead of 2012. Realistically, this was the only rhetorical move he could have made, but it’s rich to find him urging both sides to continue trying to persuade each other when he didn’t have the stones to use this as an opportunity to make the case for choice. I admit, this isn’t my issue — I’d accept legal abortion in the very, very early stages of pregnancy, before the embryo can feel pain — but I sympathize enough with true-believing pro-lifers to see how insulting the “agree to disagree” approach must be to the depth of their conviction. Huckabee, provocatively, has framed the enormity of abortion as similar to that of slavery; just as slavery had to be expunged nationally via constitutional amendment, so does abortion in his opinion. Once you’ve come to see it that way, how “open-minded” can you really be in disagreement? To borrow The One’s phrase, what “fair-minded words” would be regarded as fair in defense of slavery?

Fox News has the full transcript. I expected a somewhat divided crowd, but watch the very beginning of the speech at Greg Hengler’s site and note how “raucous” the reception was. It stayed that way during the most controversial part of the day, when Obama got his honorary degree: According to the LA Times, “Virtually all of the graduates stood and applauded as Obama received his honorary degree.” I’m giving you two clips, one from CNN of the meat and potatoes about “dialogue” or whatever and the other via Gateway Pundit of the few moments of protest that interrupted him, quickly drowned out by boos and chants from the O-bots in the graduating class. If you’re wondering what your party’s chairman used this occasion to say about abortion — well, no, actually, I don’t think you want to know.



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So it’s slavery to prevent a person from murdering another person?

It’s all how you frame it. Get with the program, kid.

bluelightbrigade on May 17, 2009 at 7:55 PM

Yes, and you can put a woman in a black bag to prevent rape and moral decay of men. Nice framing indeed. Not entirely new, though. Particularly in some parts of the world.

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:02 PM

A differentiated cell clump is not a human life. Anyone that thinks it is just plain stupid.
Go back to the darkages, conservatives.
In the 21st century women have rights over their own bodies.
The invention of birth control freed the slaves women.

strangelet on May 17, 2009 at 7:33 PM

No – a differentiated cell clump that remains a differentiated cell clump after 9 months is not a human life. A human embryo, from the time of conception, IS.

A tumor, no matter how much time you give it, will never be self-sustaining outside of the human body.

Timothy S. Carlson on May 17, 2009 at 8:02 PM

Forcing a woman to bear an unwanted fetus is enslavement.

Is forcing a woman to parent an unwanted child enslavement?

Is forcing a man to pay alimony to his former wife, enslavement?

Is a woman who feels it is her duty to care for her husband who suffers from Alzheimer’s Disease, a slave to you?

Is forcing a woman to care for an infant, because caring for that infant prevents her from going out clubbing with her friends, considered enslavement?

If you are whom you say you are – a female – God help any man who has a relationship with you. And I mean that with all due respect, you need more than a good counselor.

Joe Pyne on May 17, 2009 at 8:03 PM

strangelet on May 17, 2009 at 7:33 PM

Dark Ages? Hardly. Keep advocating murder under the euphemism of a “woman’s choice.” It’s going to be pretty hot in a little while…

The woman’s choice over her body is to take the necessary (birth control) prevention steps or keep her legs closed if she doesn’t want to get pregnant. Otherwise the only other “choice” I would assign to women is a woman’s right to choose Jif.

D2Boston on May 17, 2009 at 8:03 PM

I’d like to take a moment and give a standing ovation to the people who convinced my mom to keep me.

bluelightbrigade on May 17, 2009 at 7:42 PM

Lord, You have given us the gift of free choice.

Thank You, Lord, for the guidance You have given to expectant mothers who have chosen Life.

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 8:03 PM

JetBoy on May 17, 2009 at 7:16 PM

Well said.

Kensington on May 17, 2009 at 8:04 PM

In the 21st century women have rights over their own bodies.

strangelet on May 17, 2009 at 7:33 PM

Does this apply to unborn females as well? Do they have rights over their own bodies (i.e. the right not to have their bodies ripped apart or burned with saline)?

I guess not.

CurtZHP on May 17, 2009 at 8:04 PM

I used to take care of NICU babies. The saddest stories were the ones that women had abortions years before, then had trouble conceiving, then finally had a baby that was massively premature. Apparently no one told them when they had the abortion that many women who kill the fetus, “clump of undifferentiated cells”, or baby (whatever turns your crank) via abortion end up with major problems conceiving later on.
Decisions have consequences. Even this one.

Exactly. This is another argument against doing an abortion. It’s not an argument in support of making it illegal though.

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:04 PM

In the 21st century women have rights over their own bodies.

strangelet on May 17, 2009 at 7:33 PM

Does this apply to unborn females as well? Do they have rights over their own bodies (i.e. the right not to have their bodies ripped apart or burned with saline)?

I guess not.

CurtZHP on May 17, 2009 at 8:05 PM

Keep your damn legs together and you won’t have to worry about being a ‘womb of the state.’

+1

JetBoy on May 17, 2009 at 8:05 PM

I’d like to take a moment and give a standing ovation to the people who convinced my mom to keep me.

bluelightbrigade on May 17, 2009 at 7:42 PM

Lord, You have given us the gift of free choice.

Thank You, for the guidance You have given to expectant mothers who have chosen Life.

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 8:05 PM

Yes. Or give the baby up for adoption. But killing an innocent, because of the inconvenience, is murder – plain and simple.

Timothy S. Carlson on May 17, 2009 at 7:47 PM

Is it murder if the life of the mother is in jeopardy?

Serious question.

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:08 PM

To borrow The One’s phrase, what “fair-minded words” would be regarded as fair in defense of slavery?

People who would oppose slavery just have to understand that no one would enslave another human being easily.

Kensington on May 17, 2009 at 8:09 PM

s it murder if the life of the mother is in jeopardy?
Serious question.

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:08 PM

It’s a serious issue, but bear in mind that I don’t think anyone would call an abortion under the circumstances you propose a simple matter of “inconvenience.”

Kensington on May 17, 2009 at 8:12 PM

Screw the legality of it. Think innocent human life.

Little Boomer on May 17, 2009 at 8:12 PM

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:08 PM

Word

I’m pro life but on the other hand part of me has a hard time squaring telling people what to do.

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Obama just admitted that he views the abortion issue simply in terms of votes and not principles. If this nation was 80 percent pro-life I think his position may change.

RobCon on May 17, 2009 at 8:13 PM

. Fetuses aren’t people

That was from radiofreevillage, folks. Well, there you have it! It is people like radiofreevillage who get to decide who is human and who is not. Who is worthy to live, and who is not.

The Fuhrer would be proud. You are not worthy of argument, since you have banned yourself from any rational, moral, or insightful dialogue. I would no longer argue the value of life with you than I would the Virginia Tech killer, you two think alike.

Joe Pyne on May 17, 2009 at 8:15 PM

Yes, and you can put a woman in a black bag to prevent rape and moral decay of men. Nice framing indeed. Not entirely new, though. Particularly in some parts of the world.

Essentially, the liberal argument boils down to – “We should be allowed to give in to our carnal needs without repercussions. We want all of the fun with no responsibilities. Morals and ethics and religion gets in the way of our fun, so they have to go.”

I’ll take a Catholic conservative woman I can be proud of over any atheist liberal ‘woman’ who wants to act like a whore and be irresponsible.

Timothy S. Carlson on May 17, 2009 at 8:15 PM

Let’s not.

therightwinger on May 17, 2009 at 8:16 PM

The whole affair inside the commencement hall was one big campaign rally for Obama.

The place looked like the Colosseum, with the libs feeding the lions with the fetuses of frightened and confused victims.

jay12 on May 17, 2009 at 7:14 PM

Everything nowadays is a big campaign rally for Obama. Because conservatives, by and large, are nice to political figures that they disagree with while libtards aren’t.

Speedwagon82 on May 17, 2009 at 8:19 PM

atheist liberal ‘woman’

Good stuff.

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:19 PM

Is it murder if the life of the mother is in jeopardy?

Serious question.

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:08 PM

And it’s a good question. In this scenario Moral Absolutism often gives way to Moral Consequentialism.

Daemonocracy on May 17, 2009 at 8:19 PM

Screw the legality of it. Think innocent human life.

Think life support.

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:20 PM

Is it murder if the life of the mother is in jeopardy?

Serious question.

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:08 PM

It is a serious question, and needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis. At that point, it should be decided by the family (the mother and father). There are many factors to take into account.

But abortion for the sake of convenience? Absolutely murder.

Timothy S. Carlson on May 17, 2009 at 8:20 PM

I’m pro life but on the other hand part of me has a hard time squaring telling people what to do.

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:13 PM

It’s not hard to do, if you believe in the sanctity of innocent life. If I see someone tie your hands behind your back and place a knife to your throat in order to cut your head off, I will tell him what to do, “STOP, put down that knife NOW,” or I will have my Smith and Wesson tell him. Either way, I will tell him what to do without hesitation and without the slightest remorse as to his “freedom to choose.”

Hope that helps.

Joe Pyne on May 17, 2009 at 8:21 PM

Is it murder if the life of the mother is in jeopardy?
Serious question.

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:08 PM

IMHO, in that case, no…it’s not the “willful termination” of an otherwise viable and growing life. If it boils down to one or the other…mom or child…the only realistic and moral decision is to save the mother.

Interesting to me too, since I almost killed my own mother during my delivery. I guess I didn’t make it easy, and my mom lost so much blood, that the doctors said she wouldn’t make it at that point. I was healthy, and born on time, and my mom was beyond saving (or so they thought) that a priest came in to administer the “last rites” to her. During my birth.

Strange too, since…being Catholic and all…the Church, prior to Vatican II, always endorsed saving the baby over the mother, if it came to that. After Vatican II, that was reversed…and it became the mother as priority in saving the life of over the baby.

JetBoy on May 17, 2009 at 8:21 PM

Much to my disappointment and chagrin, I’ve come to notice that liberal Catholics tend to be as Moonbatty as democraticundergound posters or Kos diarists. They are essentially Communists hiding behind Christianity.

Newsflash to these cafeteria Catholics: (1.) abortion cannot be considered the moral equivalence of your pet liberal causes (pacifism, Amnesty, redistributionism, etc.), and (2.) the most effective system for actually, effectively reducing poverty in the world, that which you care so much about? It’s Capitalism. You know, that thing which is at odds with Barack Obama’s economic policies?

Kensington on May 17, 2009 at 8:23 PM

Think life support.

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:20 PM

Of course a baby 10 days after birth would die without support..I suspect down inside you are cool with infanticide.

Jamson64 on May 17, 2009 at 8:23 PM

Wishy washy mumbo jumbo.

“It” is either alive or dead. “It” will never develop into a giraffe or collie if left alone. You either kill “it” or you don’t.

All this greek/chinese/indo-european philosophy crap is for pretending you didn’t kill “it”.

Limerick on May 17, 2009 at 8:23 PM

JetBoy on May 17, 2009 at 7:16 PM

Well said.

Kensington on May 17, 2009 at 8:04 PM

Thanks :)

There is more to me than just one issue ;)

JetBoy on May 17, 2009 at 8:24 PM

Is it murder if the life of the mother is in jeopardy?
Serious question.

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:08 PM

Worth discussing no doubt but talk about a one percenter of a question.

Jamson64 on May 17, 2009 at 8:24 PM

’m pro life but on the other hand part of me has a hard time squaring telling people what to do.

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:13 PM

It’s not as hard as you think.

“Hey! Hey you! Yeah, you! Don’t kill that baby!”

See?

Kensington on May 17, 2009 at 8:24 PM

“Fair-minded” debate will happen when those who desire or expect children that they want realize the same legal definition of the fetus applies to their in-the-womb baby as applies to unwanted fetuses – i.e. if the fetus has neither legal or moral rights in the womb when a woman doesn’t want her baby, it doesn’t suddenly get those legal or moral rights when a woman does want her baby.

Laws don’t work that way.

Hence, in charges of abuse by smoking and drinking mothers, in issues concerning medical treatment for pre-natal care, FDA laws to protect the unborn fetus from harmful chemicals and pharmaceuticals, and even cases of domestic dispute where a pregnant woman is assaulted causing harm or death to the fetus, the fetus by definition according to abortion laws has no rights, legally, physically, medically, or morally. So long as the harm is done within the term as defined by the abortion laws, no harm has been done. You can’t harm a non-entity.

Apply the law equally to babies that are wanted as well as those that aren’t and the laws of the land will have no choice but to see “fair-minded” once and for all. When a mother is legally denied reparations for harm or death to her wanted unborn child because the law dictates she was still, legally and morally “without child”, the outrage will be deafening.

Solomon’s sword cuts two ways.

orville on May 17, 2009 at 8:25 PM

One of the other manipulative items coming out of this speech was his “touching” discussion of the young community organizer working with Catholic churches in south side Chicago. They brought him into church, to their services and ultimately his work with Catholic priests, among other Christians so moved him that he accepted Christ and came into the church. He left out the part that the church was Rev. Wright’s Trinity United. . . a good point to leave out. What a maroon.

Willie on May 17, 2009 at 8:25 PM

Some protest. Ah well, I guess I got my hopes up for naught.

4shoes on May 17, 2009 at 8:26 PM

Think life support.

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:20 PM

Guess what… My Dad was on life support 2 days ago. Now, he’s breathing on his own and his progosis is good. If you had cut off the life support, you would have murdered him. The reason the life support argument is BS, is that I assume you mean to compare it to someone on life support with no hope of recovery or no chance of any quality of life later on. The fetus, in most cases, has an excellent chance for a normal life. the comparison simply doesn’t hold water.

trubble on May 17, 2009 at 8:27 PM

Is it murder if the life of the mother is in jeopardy?

Serious question.

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:08 PM

Here’s a thought as well…

What about a case like Terry Schaivo? Was “pulling the plug” on her, a decision left to her husband, also “Willful” termination of life based on one person’s decision?

JetBoy on May 17, 2009 at 8:28 PM

. the comparison simply doesn’t hold water.

trubble on May 17, 2009 at 8:27 PM

Be open-minded please. To the mentally challenged it does.

Jamson64 on May 17, 2009 at 8:29 PM

Is it murder if the life of the mother is in jeopardy?
Serious question.

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:08 PM

In my view no. I cannot give a link, but the same is true in Catholic teaching. Although often sited as a justification, it’s my understanding that it is very rare that carrying a baby to the point it can be safely delivered, even if prematurely, poses a reasonable risk of death for the mother. However, such cases do happen.

Much more common though is that pregnancy has some non-life threatening health risks. This is why abortion advocates always include in law the following euphemism, “for the health of the mother.” This phrase can basically mean anything, and can be used as a justification for late term abortions.

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 8:29 PM

This.

myrenovations on May 17, 2009 at 7:02 PM

A call for mutually respectful dialogue about guiding principles and a plea to find common ground can be appropriate among and within man made institutions — and the credibility of the call or plea will be judged by those who hear it. As myrenovations established, Obama asked for what he is humanly unwilling to give.

Obama was invited to a man made institution, Notre Dame, which was founded on an authority higher than government. The modern Catholic Church is not alone in its drift away from the Word of God, but its fixation on the fallacious power of good works is made manifest as politically liberal good works. In the political realm, good works and guiding principles are changeable commodities.

The higher authority on which Notre Dame was founded does not negotiate or compromise His guiding principles. He hears every false word and owns the ground on which every human argument is fought. Those who defy His authority will be judged by Him. Those who profess to believe in God but defy His authority are promised a harsher judgment.

Terrie on May 17, 2009 at 8:32 PM

This is why abortion advocates always include in law the following euphemism, “for the health of the mother.”

I thought they used “for the well-being of the mother”, which can be applied to physical and/or mental and/or emotional damage.

They could even apply that to financial hardship.

Timothy S. Carlson on May 17, 2009 at 8:34 PM

I’m pro life but on the other hand part of me has a hard time squaring telling people what to do.

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:13 PM

We tell one another what to do routinely. The laws governing our behavior are growing annually, and may soon expand broadly to cover our speech. I admit this is a difficult issue, but it is a matter of life and death. So, we each must choose where to draw the line, if a line is to be drawn at all.

Think about it.

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 8:34 PM

This is why abortion advocates always include in law the following euphemism, “for the health of the mother.” This phrase can basically mean anything, and can be used as a justification for late term abortions.

The use of “health” as a nebulous workaround for any practical protection of the unborn is one of the most loathsome tactics of the Left, especially as they’re so aggressively dishonest about it.

Who’s not for health?

Kensington on May 17, 2009 at 8:34 PM

“Virtually all of the graduates stood and applauded as Obama received his honorary degree.”

I won’t be encouraging anybody in ny family to attend ND. My opinion of the institution just changed substantially.

TheBigOldDog on May 17, 2009 at 8:35 PM

I’d accept legal abortion in the very, very early stages of pregnancy, before the embryo can feel pain

Pretty much the way I feel, although a little beyond “very, very early stages of pregnancy”, as a woman would probably not even know she was PG at that point. More specifically before there is anything that at all could be called a brain. Even primitive people, apparently not as primitive as Barackito “Late term abortion” Obamalini however, were aware of something called a “quickening”. Realistically, probably the very best that any anti-abortion person can ever hope for in the U.S.

— but I sympathize enough with true-believing pro-lifers to see how insulting the “agree to disagree” approach must be to the depth of their conviction.

Rather like “agree to disagree” with a jihadi, aka very late term “abortionist”, about cutting your head off.

MB4 on May 17, 2009 at 8:36 PM

JetBoy on May 17, 2009 at 8:21 PM

Well thank you so much. I had similar circumstances with my second child and my doctor begged me to have my tubes tied but husband my wouldn’t let me.

I got pregnant for the third time, on the pill, and it was a decision we ie. husband, myself and doctor were forced to make. Take a chance with my life with a very high risk preganancy and possibly leaving my two son’s without a mother or do the unthinkable.

We chose the later. June 29, 1980. I think about it every day and believe I did the right thing. The thought of leaving my 2 son’s without a mother was more than I could bear.

It’s hard for me to hear so many repeating the word “murderer” here. Maybe I am in some of your eyes, but I did what I thought was the right thing to do.

Sorry if I offended anyone with my confession. It will be my cross to bear until my dying day.

**tears coming**

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM

I don’t think you’re a murderer, and if anyone does, they are blinded by their own passions and prejudices.

You were faced with a painful decision, and you made one — one that no one can try to, or should try to second guess.

Do we second guess soldiers on the battlefield? We try not to.

I do not second guess your choice. You are a nice woman, and I do not consider you anything close to a murderer.

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:41 PM

. Fetuses aren’t people

That was from radiofreevillage, folks. Well, there you have it! It is people like radiofreevillage who get to decide who is human and who is not. Who is worthy to live, and who is not.

The Fuhrer would be proud.

Joe Pyne on May 17, 2009 at 8:15 PM

First Obamalini came for the fetuses, but I did not speak up because I was not a fetus. Then Obamlini came for the villagers with radios, but I did not speak up because I was not a villager with a radio … … …

MB4 on May 17, 2009 at 8:42 PM

What about a case like Terry Schaivo? Was “pulling the plug” on her, a decision left to her husband, also “Willful” termination of life based on one person’s decision?

JetBoy on May 17, 2009 at 8:28 PM

What was once done rarely is now routine. And worse. I am certain there is outright euthanasia being practiced, through medication overdoses, of the elderly and terminally. I am certain I witnessed at least one case and believe I witnessed more. In such instances, the excuse is to “ease their suffering,” but in the instances I saw, I believe it was to reduce the workload of the staff.

A culture of immediate gratification, that accepts abortion, even after live birth, is one that will find it easy to do away with its other unproductive members.

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 8:43 PM

First Obamalini came for the fetuses, but I did not speak up because I was not a fetus. Then Obamlini came for the villagers with radios, but I did not speak up because I was not a villager with a radio … … …

First they caged chicken and milked cows. Then they built Auschwitz.

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:44 PM

It’s hard for me to hear so many repeating the word “murderer” here. Maybe I am in some of your eyes, but I did what I thought was the right thing to do.

I can imagine, but bear in mind that most people decrying abortion are not talking about a situation such as you describe.

That said, it’s important not to sugarcoat what abortion usually is because of the relatively few instances such as yours.

So I’m sorry if this is painful for you, and may God bless and keep you. If it’s really bad, maybe you should step away from the discussion.

Kensington on May 17, 2009 at 8:44 PM

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM

From my seat I see your decision as an unselfish act, so no offense here.Besides we enjoy you around here.

thomasaur on May 17, 2009 at 8:44 PM

I take it the abortion question isn’t above Obama’s pay grade anymore.

Bicyea on May 17, 2009 at 8:45 PM

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM

If I could give you all of my comfort to ease your pain, I would.

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 8:47 PM

First Obamalini came for the fetuses, but I did not speak up because I was not a fetus. Then Obamlini came for the villagers with radios, but I did not speak up because I was not a villager with a radio so I showed them where it lived and offered to give them a ride … … …

MB4 on May 17, 2009 at 8:42 PM

BigWyo on May 17, 2009 at 8:47 PM

is it murder if the life of the mother is in jeopardy?
Serious question.

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:08 PM

I’m in the opinion of No, but at this time we have pioneered medical techniques that would save the life of both mother and child that didn’t exist 20 years ago.

If that were the case, I’d have 2 brothers by now. My mother could not handle it though: Bone cancer does a number of things to an expectant mother. I’m surprised she survived carrying my sister to term (still alive) but her body couldn’t handle the other pregnancies.

My mother regrets having to do it, but it was a choice between us having no mother or no brother (Truly, a choice I wouldn’t wish upon my worst enemy, let alone my dear mom). She wishes she could take it back sometimes. But that was then, and she wouldn’t of made it then.

She would have now, and no doubt she would’ve taken the option. Norma McCovey would no doubt sympathize.

Chaz706 on May 17, 2009 at 8:48 PM

Much to my disappointment and chagrin, I’ve come to notice that liberal Catholics tend to be as Moonbatty as democraticundergound posters or Kos diarists. They are essentially Communists hiding behind Christianity.

Kensington on May 17, 2009 at 8:23 PM

I’ve always thought a provocative question was whether Christianity is communism.

JiangxiDad on May 17, 2009 at 8:48 PM

Besides we enjoy you around here.

thomasaur on May 17, 2009 at 8:44 PM

Hey hey, let’s not get carried away!

:D

Knucklehead, you’re a great lady so don’t beat yourself up.

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:49 PM

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM

You should talk to my mother, who had a similar decision to make.

To those who did it before out of necessity, I have the dearest feelings.

To those who did it otherwise and regret their decision, I also have the dearest feelings.

That said, I wonder how many of these pro choice nuts ever had an abortion (or how many are men wanting to treat women as objects)? I think it’s a worthy question to ask.

Chaz706 on May 17, 2009 at 8:51 PM

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM

Dear Knucklehead, you are NOT a knucklehead, nor a murderer.

The guilt you carry is a very heavy burden. Please share it in person with someone you trust who can help ease your pain.

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 8:53 PM

Well thank you so much. I had similar circumstances with my second child and my doctor begged me to have my tubes tied but husband my wouldn’t let me.

Three years after my difficult birth, my sister was born, and my mom had similar complications. Yeah, like you…she was told that getting her tubes cut and tied was perhaps the only way to save her life, as getting pregnant one more time could be her last.

If I remember the story correctly, she had to…for Catholic reasons…get approval from the Holy See. She was granted dispensation for it.

But like blatant blue said there, you are in no way a “murderer”. You had no choice. As far as I see, abortion is only murder when it’s willful, and taken as some “on demand” way out of having a child. But on a more important note, it doesn’t matter what I think.

Although I’m sure you did the right thing. I can only imagine what you personally went through, and continue to go through, over what happened to you and yours.

Just remember…don’t let me, or anyone for that matter, judge you. That’s between you and your maker. And I can’t speak for Him, but I’d venture to say you’d be forgiven.

JetBoy on May 17, 2009 at 8:54 PM

First they caged chicken and milked cows. Then they built Auschwitz.

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:44 PM

So which are you? A chicken or a cow or a camp guard?

MB4 on May 17, 2009 at 8:54 PM

Nice of those who already escaped the womb to leave those on their own who have not been so lucky.

Jamson64 on May 17, 2009 at 8:54 PM

I’ve always thought a provocative question was whether Christianity is communism.

JiangxiDad on May 17, 2009 at 8:48 PM

Certainly not in any sense that involves government forcing its citizens to live as Communists.

Christ demands that we love one another and take care of the poor and weakest among us. But Communism doesn’t do that.

Capitalism, on the other hand, has an amazing track record of reducing poverty and elevating the lives of those who live within its systems.

Kensington on May 17, 2009 at 8:54 PM

Chaz706

I found out mine did (she doesn’t know I know).

I cried and cried for a few days after I found out. I couldn’t take it. Still can’t when I think about it. She regrets it every single day of her life and I do wish I could relieve her pain and regret.

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:54 PM

Knucklehead on May 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM

Please don’t feel you have to respond to anything anyone has posted here about abortion or about you.

Your contributions are highly valued here, which means you are highly valued. Please do take good care of yourself.

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 8:55 PM

I cried and cried for a few days after I found out. I couldn’t take it. Still can’t when I think about it. She regrets it every single day of her life and I do wish I could relieve her pain and regret.

What if she killed a black person? Would you react the same way and say the same things? Why or why not?

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:56 PM

1. Knucklehead, God bless.
To your point, we do have the right of self-defense. If that pregnancy would have killed you, you would have a moral justification for your decision, painful as it may be.
2.

I’ve always thought a provocative question was whether Christianity is communism.
JiangxiDad on May 17, 2009 at 8:48 PM

They are not the same, JD. They are based on two divergent principles. Christianity (and I would think Judaism also) calls for a community formed of and by individuals willingly joining together. Communism and socialism both mandate the community from the top down. “You ARE in the community. You have no choice.”
I’m no genius, but just have to offer those points to this discussion.

either orr on May 17, 2009 at 8:57 PM

Notre Dame & the Catholic community are the losers – Obama used them to further his platform of child genocide.

http://www.replacejenkins.com/references.html

izoneguy on May 17, 2009 at 8:57 PM

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:56 PM

Why are you saying things like that?

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:57 PM

Huckabee, provocatively, has framed the enormity of abortion as similar to that of slavery; just as slavery had to be expunged nationally via constitutional amendment, so does abortion in his opinion.

That isn’t Huckabee’s frame. Judge Andrew Napolitano has loudly and frequently made a comparison between the Supreme Court decisions on abortion and Dred Scott that declare neither babies nor negroes to be deserving of rights or protection under the law.

TMK on May 17, 2009 at 8:57 PM

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:56 PM

Do you work at being inappropriate? Or does it just come naturally?

kingsjester on May 17, 2009 at 8:58 PM

Obama at Notre Dame: Hey, let’s be open-minded about child murder

What.a.shock. Our fearless leader more than willing to sacrifice anyone even the unborn for his own benefit.

Besides:

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
Edmund Burke

Speakup on May 17, 2009 at 8:59 PM

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:56 PM

I saw you post on the Dowd thread.

Just when I thought you had a single iota of common sense; a single iota of tact (surprising from a troll), you go and say things like that.

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:59 PM

I’ve always thought a provocative question was whether Christianity is communism.

JiangxiDad on May 17, 2009 at 8:48 PM

Christianity is the very opposite of communism. Why would Christianity (or Christ himself) propose a system that would support another one (communism) that would destroy Christianity if it had the chance?

My opinion is thus: Christianity is not, cannot, and never could be beholden to the values of Marx. Marx was one who believes that man’s actions are determined by his actions. Christianity leaves to man the choice to act for himself.

Many point to the story of Annanias and Sapphira and how the early Christians held their goods ‘in common’. Many believe that Annanias and Sapphira were killed because they desired to keep something for themselves. The text (Acts 5:1-5*)bears otherwise: they were killed for selling their possession, holding back a part of the value, and lying to the apostles saying that they were giving the total value of the sold possession.

Communism says: From each according to his ablilty. To each according to his need.
Christianity says otherwise. People were free to keep what they needed and what they wanted, but were also advised that there were others in need of substance for perfectly valid reasons.
Likewise, communism has often spawned idleness (like N. Korea. Can’t think of the exact word for it at the moment).
Christianity on the other hand inspires men to do good above and beyond what is necessary.

Perhaps the biggest difference: Communism is compulsory. Christianity wasn’t.

Chaz706 on May 17, 2009 at 8:59 PM

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:56 PM

Do you work at being inappropriate? Or does it just come naturally?

kingsjester on May 17, 2009 at 8:58 PM

All of the above.

either orr on May 17, 2009 at 9:00 PM

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:54 PM

To you and your mother, I pray that you receive comfort.

I send you all of mine.

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 9:00 PM

*BTW: in the above comment, I’m drawing from the KJV. I can’t say what’s in the RSV, NIV, or other versions (I don’t believe they’re correct, but that’s another discussion entirely).

Similar parallels could also be drawn in the argument of ‘The united order’ versus communism. But that’s a Mormon thing, and I won’t explain.

Chaz706 on May 17, 2009 at 9:02 PM

Do you work at being inappropriate? Or does it just come naturally?

kingsjester on May 17, 2009 at 8:58 PM

I’m thinking natural, like a gag reflex.

Daemonocracy on May 17, 2009 at 9:02 PM

Over at The Corner, Ramesh Ponnuru raises an interesting point. Basically, he says that, upon balancing all concerns, he might have been able to support a hypothetical pro-choice Republican last Fall, but even if he had, his pro-life principles still would have been compelled him to object to that hypothetical pro-choice Republican receiving the honors of Notre Dame today.

That’s something that Obama Catholics really ought to ponder: why they’re still looking the other way on this matter months after the election was settled.

Kensington on May 17, 2009 at 9:03 PM

Yes, and you can put a woman in a black bag to prevent rape and moral decay of men. Nice framing indeed. Not entirely new, though. Particularly in some parts of the world.

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:02 PM

Abortion is still murder. No matter how you frame it, rfv.

Keep the discussion on task.

bluelightbrigade on May 17, 2009 at 9:04 PM

Have you noticed that the more BO is challenged the higher his chin points?

d1carter on May 17, 2009 at 6:56 PM

i noticed the same thing this afternoon – he would have drowned had it been raining inside. the other faculty sitting besides him didn’t feel the need to shove their chin/nose into the air. it was nothing but his pompous ego thinking he won the debate.

BHO – arrogant is your name.

poppieseeds on May 17, 2009 at 9:04 PM

I’m thinking natural, like a gag reflex.

Daemonocracy on May 17, 2009 at 9:02 PM

I was thinking flatulence. (sp)?

thomasaur on May 17, 2009 at 9:04 PM

If life does not beging at conception, then when does it begin?

and radiofreevillage, of course fetuses are people..what do you think they are?

We can argue whether or not a woman should have the legal right to terminate a pregnancy, but be real about what you are talking about. A fetus is life.

Terrye on May 17, 2009 at 9:05 PM

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:57 PM

Please take good care of yourself.

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 9:05 PM

That should be begin, not beging. Silly me.

Terrye on May 17, 2009 at 9:05 PM

I still have not got to the place where I can watch and listen to Obama without getting slightly sick. I have never had this reaction to any President before.

Terrye on May 17, 2009 at 9:07 PM

If you listen to the CNN clip from 1:25-1:45 you will hear a baby crying. I am surprised they didn’t kick the baby out of the room or arrest it for protesting! I think President Obama heard it because it looks as if he reacts slightly during that time. If he is such a fair minded person, maybe President Obama would be interested in spending some time in a NICU with the persons who would be nonpersons if they were in a different location. #IRONIC

doctor horton on May 17, 2009 at 9:07 PM

Some people are incredibly cruel and heartless. Feeding off others’ pain to make a debating point is unspeakably evil.

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 9:08 PM

A differentiated cell clump is not a human life. Anyone that thinks it is just plain stupid.
Go back to the darkages, conservatives.
In the 21st century women have rights over their own bodies.
The invention of birth control freed the slaves women.

strangelet on May 17, 2009 at 7:33 PM

WOW! So your saying your mother was a slave!

Your logic is so twisted that I can only shake my head!

Pregnancy is a choice! When a women lays with a man, she has a choice! less than 1% are rape and incest which means over 99% of abortions are for birth control. In the 21st century, you would think women had more brains to control their inhibitions and show some sort of personel responsibility.

Unfortunatly, you just showed the differnce between conservative women who have BRAINS and the liberals who have NO brains!

will sass u on May 17, 2009 at 9:08 PM

So it’s slavery to prevent a person from murdering another person?

It’s all how you frame it. Get with the program, kid.

bluelightbrigade on May 17, 2009 at 7:55 PM

Yes, and you can put a woman in a black bag to prevent rape and moral decay of men. Nice framing indeed. Not entirely new, though. Particularly in some partd of the world.

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 7:59 PM

And by on task, I mean “drop the anti-abortionism is slavery schtick.”

Prohibiting non-life-threatening abortions is not slavery.

And you devalue the anti-slavery movement in calling it so.

bluelightbrigade on May 17, 2009 at 9:09 PM

Differentiated cell clump is not a human life. Anyone that thinks it is just plain stupid.strangelet on May 17, 2009 at 7:33 PM

Fetuses aren’t people.
radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 7:56 PM

You both are idiots.

Dr. Paul Ranalli

A 20-30 week old fetus actually will feel more pain than an adult. The period between 20-30 weeks is a uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop.

canditaylor68 on May 17, 2009 at 9:10 PM

radiofreevillage on May 17, 2009 at 8:56 PM

Why are you saying things like that?

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 8:57 PM

He can’t help himself. It’s in his nature.

MB4 on May 17, 2009 at 9:10 PM

Re. Christianity/Communism.

Sorry, can’t respond intelligently. Something gnaws at me about a conflict btwn. Christianity and capitalism. Not sure I can take it any further.

JiangxiDad on May 17, 2009 at 9:10 PM

If life does not beging at conception, then when does it begin?

and radiofreevillage, of course fetuses are people..what do you think they are?

We can argue whether or not a woman should have the legal right to terminate a pregnancy, but be real about what you are talking about. A fetus is life.

Terrye on May 17, 2009 at 9:05 PM

In God’s eyes, it begins at conception

For Liberals, it begins when they say it does! Liberals have NO integrity, foundations, or principles and the very reason the liberal who refuses to find foundation in time-honored principles will find themselves on the wrong side of history when People look back.

People say Jesus was a Liberal, in 2Thes chapter 3, Paul said, “you don’t work you don’t eat”!

will sass u on May 17, 2009 at 9:11 PM

Loxodonta on May 17, 2009 at 9:08 PM

You’re a very kind man, Lox

blatantblue on May 17, 2009 at 9:11 PM

MB4 on May 17, 2009 at 9:10 PM

+1

/g-dmademeanass

bluelightbrigade on May 17, 2009 at 9:12 PM

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