strangelet on May 15, 2009 at 6:29 PM

A wonderful fog of misathropic words. It hides a utter lack of moral decisions.

If you wish to make it a debate about pure biology, the evidence has started to swing heavily towards the child in the womb being human (it seems almost redundant to say). Notice that doctors will NOT come out and say definitively where life starts, because to do so is to define where abortion ends and murder begins.

If you wish to argue the LEGAL side, the purpose of the law is to error on the side of caution. If there is a reasonable chance that a child in the womb is human, then they have individual rights.

I go along with the thought Ed brought up, that Obama is so horrifically radical (his support of partial birth abortions), he has swung the definition of what it means to be pro-choice to something too extreme for Americans.

Thanks Obama.

atheists and their children (those that survive) will become MUSLIM….LOL

right4life on May 16, 2009 at 10:20 AM

Ironic, ain’t it? LOL

In times of economic distress,people turn to more conservative values.

DDT on May 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM

They didn’t last November.

If so, then the current numbers don’t mean much at all since they’re basically just a reaction to whoever’s in power at the time.

This statement from ellafunditz, and the whole speel at the head of this comment line is an example of how defense lawyers try to sway a jury that their client on trial for murder is really just misunderstood.

Hey ellfunditz: Figure it out — a majority humans do not like the killing of tens of thousand un-born humans.

I am wonder if you mother had any children that lived?

One possible explanation: The Left has been rollicking in the baby-killing fields for so long now, and it is so much ingrained in their psyches, and into the psyches of the remaining kids they don’t kill off… That it is all becoming self-limiting. Those who support abortion “rights” will become a smaller and smaller fraction of society as they “exercise” their choice to wipe themselves out.

Thus, a larger percentage of society that remains will naturally be pro-life.

Ain’t “natural” selection grand?

would swing the country towards conservatives… but that has yet to happen. I guess we will see.

Child bearing as politics is a weird thought now isn’t it.

petunia on May 15, 2009 at 8:25 PM

nevah happen.
Your children will be atheists, like Allah says….at least the smart ones.
And the beautiful ones.
You see….your chidren that are intellectually gifted or talented or beautiful…..become one with the elite.
Hollywood is made up of atheists and scientologists.
lol

I support abortion in the first trimester and up to a year ago I would have identified as pro-choice. Not any more as the discussion has become obscene, quite frankly. Now if someone were to ask I would say I am pro-life.

Babs on May 15, 2009 at 9:21 PM

I can relate to this in a sense, although it was quite a few years ago. I always felt that I had a unique way of reaching my current (and final) position. As odd as it may sound, the very same reasoning I used as a supposed pro choicer is in fact, the same reasoning I came about to be pro life. It was under the:

“there cannot be found an agreement upon the many scientists, doctors, theologians, philosophers, etc. at which an answer to the ‘when does life begin’ question. Because so, it seems we cannot actually know when life begins.”

Admittedly, there was a time in my life when this was true justification for my old position. Then, after serious reflection over the issue and after finding religion again (specifically accepting Christ as my Lord and Saviour), I realized something. A true paradigm shift. Because life (or really a soul) enters a body at some point in the womb, one side of the issue is wrong. Wrong in the sense of timing. The question I asked myself that gave me literal physical chills was this:

“If one side is wrong, which would you rather have on your conscience?”

It begs of compassion and decency, I understand. But that’s humanity for us.

Apologies for the rant.

As for the rest of us, given what you’ve already written, it’s up to you to prove that you are not, after all, the dirty Tleilaxu you seem to be.

Kralizec on May 15, 2009 at 7:44 PM

lol, I’m Bene Gesserit born and bred. The Bene Tleilax have no women. They breed in vats.

This is the awe-inspiring universe of magic: There are no atoms, only waves and motions all around. Here, you discard all belief in barriers to understanding. You put aside understanding itself. This universe cannot be seen, cannot be heard, cannot be detected in any way by fixed perceptions. It is the ultimate void where no preordained screens occur upon which forms may be projected. You have only one awareness here — the screen of the magi: Imagination! Here, you learn what it is to be human. You are a creator of order, of beautiful shapes and systems, an organizer of chaos.
The Atreides Manifesto, Bene Gesserit Archives

Your point about the abortions killing the babies who would have grown up like their mothers. Is a good one. I have thought for awhile that the demographics of who has children and who doesn’t would swing the country towards conservatives… but that has yet to happen. I guess we will see.

Child bearing as politics is a weird thought now isn’t it.

One answer, which was mentioned above, is technology. Our ability to actually see inside the womb during pregnancy is dispelling a lot of false notions about when and how a fetus becomes a person.

Quick story: I has taken a previous girlfriend on a date to the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, and one portion of the museum had a display of fetal development during various stages, all shown by real fetuses under glass.

My girlfriend was very much pro-choice, and was really amazed by what she saw. I remember her hanging around that area for a half-hour almost, marvelling at the little features of these tiny creatures’ faces and hands at very early stages of growth.

Two weeks later, out of the blue, she told me she could no longer be pro-choice, except maybe, very early on.

Technology, as in most areas of our lives, is a wonderful thing. The more information that we can get out, about everything, the more our side wins.

I see the number! I feel so stupid! I thought is was a page number or something! Thanks again.

Thanks!

How does one comment on headlines? I’ve only been there when someone linked to the comments. It’s okay you can call me an idiot for not knowing. Just answer.

petunia on May 15, 2009 at 7:52 PM

Click the little icon to the right of the given headline. It appears either as a tiny pair of speech balloons or as a number indicating how many comments have already been posted.

I saw this poll today. We were having this discussion the other night. I am not surprised at all by the poll. Abortion is simply no longer fashionable.

The right won this one.

AnninCA on May 15, 2009 at 7:37 PM

Fashion can’t be all there is or when the “styles” change then abortion becomes the fashion again.

Pro-choice was popular because of the horror stories a generation or two ago about women in poor and desperate circumstances dying by coat hanger etc. That was a strong image that still is used but so few today have any direct experience of those times.

And the compassionate masses could relate to the unfortunate woman used by the heartless male… and in need of medical answers.

But medicine has stepped in and given us pictures of the real victim. It is no longer hypithitical that under that belly there is a human. It is there sometimes in 3-D images! And the hidden human has a gender and most importantly a NAME!

Now science supports the idea that the child in the womb feels pain, has facial expression, and has a personality along with a gender.

You can’t even find gender neutral baby clothes anymore. A newborn isn’t an unknown blob we know him/her before birth.

Baby showers used to be given when the baby was about 2-3 weeks old or so because we didn’t know the gender… Now the shower can be months before birth. And the baby’s name is on the invite.

Pregnancy in everyday life includes a named human now. That is just a fact.

Ultra sound has to be credited for making progress in recognizing those first stirrings and kicks as an actual human.

Yikes! That reminds me. I missed a shower last week I need to drop this present off before the little guy is born!

I saw this poll today. We were having this discussion the other night. I am not surprised at all by the poll. Abortion is simply no longer fashionable.

The right won this one.

AnninCA on May 15, 2009 at 7:37 PM

I’ll set aside the problem that your victory announcement is premature with just the passing comment that it is premature.

More may be at work here than “simply” a change of fashion. It’s possible that abortions themselves have helped decrease the tendencies according to which it seems many must feel a need for abortion. For a few decades, the women who are impetuous enough to get pregnant and anxious enough or callous enough to kill their babies have been–killing their babies. If impetuosity, anxiety, and callousness are heritable traits, abortion’s natural proponents have spent decades killing the next generation of its natural proponents. On that basis, I’ll be a little sorry to see it go.

strangelet on May 15, 2009 at 6:29 PM

You mistakenly think your line is less arbitrary than others.

They’re driving the party to the left, why exactly? To ditch all the Christian Conservatives who support crazy, far-out ideas like being Pro-life?