Matthews: Sometimes, you gotta torture
posted at 8:46 am on May 14, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Even if you have to torture logic to do it. Chris Matthews tries to explain that of course he would torture under extreme circumstances. The real crime, as Matthews explains, is changing the definition of torture (via Radio Vice Online):
Ah, the hilarity that Nancy Pelosi hath wrought. After issuing condemnations for the last several weeks of enhanced interrogation techniques as an absolute repudiation of America, now the Left has to figure out an attack on the Bush administration that lets Pelosi and fellow Democrats in Congress who knew and approved the techniques off the hook.
Out: Unconditional, absolute proscriptions against “torture”. In: Rogue Presidents who break the law at times of extreme duress, as long as they don’t try to parse the meaning of “torture” by actually building a legal defense. Because apparently the real crime now is not that Bush & Co “tortured” detainees, but that they asked for a legal definition before using the EITs.
The scenario that Matthews spins sounds pretty reminiscent of what the US faced in 2002, when the EITs were used. We had just seen al-Qaeda vaporize thousands of Americans in the space of 90 minutes, and we had received all kinds of intelligence that another attack may be on its way at any moment. We capture three high-ranking AQ leaders, and we need to find out what they know as quickly as possible, because we don’t know squat and the attack could come at any time. According to Chris Matthews in this clip, and Chuck Schumer in 2004, start pulling toenails, baby!
We can have a debate over what techniques work and what cross the line, which is the honest debate to have, as long as we have all of the information on what was done, what was gleaned, and what was stopped as a result. Matthews isn’t interested in honest debate. He’s parsing madly to keep as much blame as possible on Bush for doing less than Matthews suggests here, while absolving Democrats for their participation. It’s not just hopeless bias, it’s hackery of the lowest order.
Blowback
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Yes, I got that message loud and clear in last night’s episode of Lie To Me.
myrenovations on May 14, 2009 at 8:48 AM
Hackery, thy name is Chrissy Matthews.
DeweyWins on May 14, 2009 at 8:50 AM
Allahpundit,
Promise us that everytime you post something from MSNBC that it includes a poll of their droping ratings./sarc
shick on May 14, 2009 at 8:50 AM
Chris Matthews’ tortured pretzel logic.
Loxodonta on May 14, 2009 at 8:52 AM
All the left have to do now is figure out a way to make Republicans “hypocrites” for doing enhanced interrogation and they’re home free.
LibTired on May 14, 2009 at 8:53 AM
the problem is that people in ivory towers are having this debate. TORTURE should NOT BE DISCUSSED. How we gather intelligence is NOT dinner time conversation. Hypotheticals do NOTHING to advance public discourse. I’d rather the public not know. If we torture some people, so be it.
And I’m against the death penalty. But during war, you gotta kill people.
ThackerAgency on May 14, 2009 at 8:53 AM
Hmmm, I define torture as having to watch Cris Matthews get a tingle up his leg. I say we persecute him for torture.
doriangrey on May 14, 2009 at 8:54 AM
And again, these talking heads discuss ‘torture’ as though it is being used against AMERICAN CITIZENS. It is NOT. It is used against enemy combatants. ANYBODY that wants to hurt one of our soldiers deserves the most contempt possible. ANYONE that wants to hurt our soldiers does NOT have Constitutional rights.
ThackerAgency on May 14, 2009 at 8:55 AM
Amen, brother.
Ed Morrissey on May 14, 2009 at 8:55 AM
Agree. My weapon of choice – the remote.
sherry on May 14, 2009 at 8:56 AM
List of Progressives that support/tolerate torture:
Nancy Pelosi
Chuck Schumer
Diane Feinstein
and now
Chris Matthews
for pragmatic reasons (of course!)
I fail to see how they are different than Bush other than his motives were purer.
Upstater85 on May 14, 2009 at 8:56 AM
I’m also against the death penalty, but as you say, people get killed during wars, if they didn’t, we wouldn’t call them wars we would call them something different, like get together s or parties.
doriangrey on May 14, 2009 at 8:57 AM
Typical liberal. Sure you should have laws, but if you don’t agree with a law, go ahead and break it! Like with immigration, drugs, underage sex, infanticide, gay marriage, et al.
And of course, Enhanced Interrogation Techniques (EIT) are all torture, so let’s not debate that!
I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again, EITs are NOT torture.
Torture is the deliberate infliction of the maximum pain possible for the purpose of sadism or to extract a false admission. It works by having the victim do whatever it takes to stop the unbearable pain or to save his/her life.
EIT is for extracting information by psychologically removing the barriers put up by the one interrogated. Once the barriers are removed, useful and truthful information can be extracted. EIT employes discomfort, embarassment, shame, annoyance, sleep deprivation (exhaustion), hunger, disgust, fear and other techniques, often severe, but rarely painful and never malicious.
These two are completely different, and anyone who does not see that is simply dishonest.
stonemeister on May 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM
But they don’t see what’s wrong with MOM monitoring all of those nasty AMERICAN right wing extremists…
I guess we should be honored that we are being held to the highest standards…
Upstater85 on May 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM
my brother, retired career Army officer & one of the those there at fall of Baghdad has this to say to me about the current torture debate:
“take care of your own first. no matter what it takes”. i wish my Precedent had the same attitude.
kelley in virginia on May 14, 2009 at 8:59 AM
But just last week the trolls were claiming that torture was er against the law… this week they are instant pragmatists…
Upstater85 on May 14, 2009 at 8:59 AM
Basically supports what has been done as those waterboarded were key contacts for future attacks. Matthews is torture himself. If his immediate family stops watching his show, it technically does not exist.
volsense on May 14, 2009 at 9:00 AM
Oh, he does, he does… you just aren’t one of his sheep…
Upstater85 on May 14, 2009 at 9:00 AM
Chris: Yes, today I will agree with you… yesterday, not so much. Tomorrow, well, I’m sticking my wet finger to the hind wind of DailyKos…
Upstater85 on May 14, 2009 at 9:01 AM
Morons.
tormod on May 14, 2009 at 9:02 AM
Thats the problem with being a braindead liberal, having no actual morals ethics or principals their talking points undergo radical alterations every time they find themselves responsible for their own actions.
doriangrey on May 14, 2009 at 9:02 AM
“Man, stop being so uptight. The meaning of words change all the time. Wait, what? Chris Matthews said what about words? Oh, sorry, I mean, the meaning of words change all the time to different people in different ways that only Teh One can predict.”
Upstater85 on May 14, 2009 at 9:04 AM
pMSNBC is torture.
I blocked it from my channel lineup 3 years ago, haven’t missed it since.
Mazztek on May 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM
I was actually going to check that show out for the first time last night. I was watching for about 10 seconds before I heard some Cheney bashing and had to pass. The little bit I watched semmed very heavy handed.
Chrissy is making a fool of himself (yet again) here. He’s part of the democrat establishment and they look at the polls and realize the American people aren’t with them on their anti-
torturewater boarding and scary bug soap box. Now they are trying to to find a more public friendly way to politicize national security.Ampersand on May 14, 2009 at 9:10 AM
MSNBC = More Stupid Nonsense By Communists
DL13 on May 14, 2009 at 9:10 AM
Will we ever get to prosecute them for the torture of having Pelosi and Reid in “leadership” for the past few years?
InTheBellyoftheBeast on May 14, 2009 at 9:11 AM
Is this international Law or American Law? If it’s International Law then I say ignore it. The United States shouldn’t be dictated to by our enemies, which is the way I interpet International Law. If it’s an american law, I want it quoted so I can lobby to get it changed. All I know of the Geneva Convention is what I remember from watching “Hogans Heroes” as a kid.
Is it just me, or does seeing the baddest badasses in the world spill their guts and betray their friends over “Harsh Interrogation Techniques” make them see a lot less fearsome.
Tommy_G on May 14, 2009 at 9:12 AM
The next step in this effort to save Pelosi will be that waterboarding really isn’t torture.
And Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia, has it not?
Loxodonta on May 14, 2009 at 9:13 AM
Did Obama have a press conference last night?
Oh, THAT “Lie to Me”.
Never mind.
RegularJoe on May 14, 2009 at 9:13 AM
If you take care of your men; Your men will take care of you .. !
HadaAbeche on May 14, 2009 at 9:15 AM
Thank you! That line gets said at least once a week in my house.
myrenovations on May 14, 2009 at 9:17 AM
It’s The Obama Way. The actions of the President can be grossly illegal, but as long as he has our best interests at heart, it’s OK.
gridlock2 on May 14, 2009 at 9:19 AM
Bossman,the list is much bigger,but let me add just a few more prominent liberals to it:
Bill Clinton
John D. Rockefeller
Leon Panetta
(D) Senator Graham
And if the Obama administration actually practiced “full disclosure and transparency ” we would know many more.
We would also be able to show how much these techniques stopped attacks and saved lives if they would release the documents Hofestra and Cheney want released.
Watching idiots like Matthews twist and spin to cover their
liberal heroes butts is beyond pathetic.
Only an idiot leftist could take someone seriously who threw tantrums on air about “we do not torture”,”Torture is never justified”,over and over and then after it is starting to show how much his democratic friends supported it,it’s okay to torture just don’t find out if your policies are legal or not.
I guess any day now we are going to start seeing bumper stickers on the backs of liberal’s cars that state “War is the Answer”.
Baxter Greene on May 14, 2009 at 9:20 AM
I’d always heard that described as the Nixon Way. But I suppose terms and descriptions do change over time.
myrenovations on May 14, 2009 at 9:20 AM
If Matthews has no problem with torture, presumably REAL torture, why was he so anxious to get the ball rolling against Bush? Would he include HIMSELF among those to be charged? Oops, forgot — now he says if you call it torture, even REAL torture, it’s okay! What keeps this clown on the air?!
littleguy on May 14, 2009 at 9:21 AM
What I’d like to know is what this president is going to do if we have another catastrophic attack and he finds himself in the same situation as Bush/Cheney and he has people in custody who may know details about pending attacks. What is the CIA going to do? Are their hands tied now? How will we get information? Play Olby/Matthews videos till they break down? Seriously, though, what’s the new policy?
scalleywag on May 14, 2009 at 9:23 AM
And your point is….?
mr.blacksheep on May 14, 2009 at 9:25 AM
So, I suppose Matthews is going to hold Spitzer at gun point over his Hypocrisy (words don’t change) and he’s going to call a spade a spade when it comes to the money grubbing Edwards family (word’s don’t change adultery = adultery and greed = greed)…
Yeah, that will be the day.
Upstater85 on May 14, 2009 at 9:30 AM
Today’s topic/spin on “Hardball” will probably be how long-term detentions of terror suspects are now okey-dokey with Chris, because Obama’s Gitmo clearly isn’t Bush’s Gitmo.
jon1979 on May 14, 2009 at 9:32 AM
Ooooh, that tingle crawling up his leg is a Gitmo caterpillar.
Steve Z on May 14, 2009 at 9:34 AM
Once again, liberals show the value of pragmatism. Unlike silly LAWS, with pragmatism, ANYONE can be a criminal, all you have to do is say so.
More and more, I’m coming to see that pragmatism is not a great quality for a President. To have as your chief law enforcment and military official someone who changes opinions based on some measure of personal gain leads to all sorts of problems.
hawksruleva on May 14, 2009 at 9:34 AM
So torture is okay as long as the ONE, mr tingly hopey changey himself does it.
Hmmm
I wants ome of whatever mathews is smoking because that must be POWERFULL.
sonofdy on May 14, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Daffynishon:
Torture: Enhanced Interrogation Techniques when a Republican endorses them.
Patriotism: Enhanced Interrogation Techniques when a Democrat endorses them.
Fairness in Media: The above two daffynishons.
Steve Z on May 14, 2009 at 9:40 AM
Translation: Serving in office as an elected Republican
conservativeis grounds to be charged with crimes.perroviejo on May 14, 2009 at 9:48 AM
Baxter:
Graham has never supported any kind of witch hunts or anything else, it is not really fair putting him on that list. In fact he was one of the people who put together the military tribunals that Bush wanted to use and Obama originally said no to.
Graham might not be as conservative on some issues as people would like, but when it comes to national security issues he is pretty tough. He also voted against Obama’s budget and that is worth something.
The rest of these people are just trying to cover their asses. The thing is they got away with rewriting and revising history in regards to Saddam and so they thought they could get away with it again when it came to terrorists in general.
Terrye on May 14, 2009 at 9:50 AM
One of the lefts main talking points is to say that they don’t work and that the bad guys will say anything to get them to stop. Of course they will. But that is why you corroborate what they tell you.
Case in point, last night on Maddow show, (can’t waterboard myself so I watched this) she had a guy who supposedly ran one of the SEER programs. Of course he said it did not work to get info. So why then do it to our own military? His response was so they would know what it feels like. Huh?
yakwill83 on May 14, 2009 at 9:51 AM
It’s some kinda wacky “herbal jazz cigarette”, treated with hopenchange, to give a tingly feeling when inhaled.
ladyingray on May 14, 2009 at 9:52 AM
scalleywag:
I read somewhere that Obama has left himself an out in that sort of situation. On one hand he says NO! to being mean to people, on the other hand he created the exception for the ticking bomb scenario.
Typical.
Terrye on May 14, 2009 at 9:53 AM
The comments on this thread are why I keep coming on this website. So I do not go insane and so I know there are lots of other people out there who see things the way they really are.
And so many do it with a sense of humor, so I laugh instead of cry over all that is happening in our country.
Thank you, everyone. God bless you and God bless this country.
Elisa on May 14, 2009 at 9:55 AM
I would like to second that very much. There are times that I get so depressed or angry with what is happening, I simply can’t put any humor into my posts. But there are others who do. And that humor is so essential. So, I also bless you all of you that can help us laugh.
Loxodonta on May 14, 2009 at 10:00 AM
Thanks for watching Chris Matthews, so I don’t have to. The experience could meet some definitions of torture.
Right_of_Attila on May 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM
San Fran Nan changes everything…
d1carter on May 14, 2009 at 10:11 AM
Matthews has, for weeks, called for Bush admin heads to roll. Now, that members of their own Democrat Socialist Party is involved, he spins to cover for them. Tingles are affecting his judgement, otherwise, he would call for the Dems involved to be investigated.
Liberals always, always, over-reach. It’s their backtracking that is so funny. Instead of admitting they are wrong, out comes the spin, which makes them look like the fools they are.
TN Mom on May 14, 2009 at 10:13 AM
Love seeing Matthews resort to “Cheney” talk.
danking70 on May 14, 2009 at 10:21 AM
Shepard Smith is NOT going to be HAPPY about this change of events.
Where are the trolls? (crickets)
PappaMac on May 14, 2009 at 10:21 AM
Well, duuh! That statement applies to every liberal on planet Earth. You can’t have an “honest” anything because honesty is rooted in truth, and as all good liberals know, there’s no such thing as “truth”; just “your opinion” or “my opinion”.
Sort of frightening to think there are actually sponsors who want their products identified with this jack-ass.
oldleprechaun on May 14, 2009 at 10:22 AM
Busy scraping together Nan’s legal fund?
Upstater85 on May 14, 2009 at 10:26 AM
The left’s hypocrisy has gotten to the point that they don’t even try to defend the indefensible. They just parse and ramble on. Truth? They could care less. George Orwell is smiling.
GarandFan on May 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM
So what CIA interrogator is going to follow the order from the POTUS like this?
The only way the waterboarding was going to get done is how it was done — with a flimsy legal justification just in case it leaked. The problem is that it leaked, it never should have gotten out, but now that it has gotten out, everyone has just enough cover to avoid going to jail.
tommylotto on May 14, 2009 at 10:34 AM
George Soros. George Soros. George Soros.
Every ounce of background noise you hear regarding “torture” is brought to you by the new owner of the Democrat party. The original push to make “torture” the new meme came from the same PR agency that started MoveOn, and introduced such classics as “Hey, it’s only about sex.”
George Soros.
warbaby on May 14, 2009 at 10:36 AM
Maybe it’s just me, but there is something very un-comfortable about the country’s highest levels of leadership explaining a change in policy by saying:
“On second thought…”
That is the Ivy League version of “oops”.
BobMbx on May 14, 2009 at 10:46 AM
They’re right, torture does NOT work. That’s another reason we don’t use it. Instead, we use Enhanced Interrogation Techniques. They are very reliable. And they’re not torture.
stonemeister on May 14, 2009 at 10:46 AM
Waterboarding isn’t torture. Caterpillars in boxes isn’t torture. Shouting at people isn’t torture. Making them stay up all night isn’t torture.
It’s very, very unpleasant and shouldn’t be the first or even second line of interrogation.
But if it’s something you might try for cash on a bet, or something that might be featured on Fear Factor, it’s not torture.
Asher on May 14, 2009 at 10:49 AM
Bravo, Ed!
maverick muse on May 14, 2009 at 10:56 AM
Oh wait. Is that Dick Cheney with a Chris Matthews mask on?
volsense on May 14, 2009 at 10:56 AM
“but, but, but, I’m just Sure George W Boosch is evil. Can’t we just prosecute him?”
kirkill on May 14, 2009 at 10:59 AM
So we agree.
yakwill83 on May 14, 2009 at 11:02 AM
Change: whenever we need to get out of something we just change everything, History, Religion, Beliefs, Morals, Safety, health care anything else you can think of NOW. We can always change back.
Tremmy on May 14, 2009 at 11:03 AM
I think torture would be having Wanda…the first wook Whoopsie! My bad! I mean first “lady” seduce you with a teddy on.
LtE126 on May 14, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Let’s not lose sight of the real point – Pelosi lied. She knew what she’d done and didn’t do would be unpopular with her supporters so she lied. Do not let them change the topic.
The question of whether she acted rightly at the time is independent although not unimportant.
edshepp on May 14, 2009 at 11:42 AM
Isn’t that the definition of “Chris Matthews” in the dictionary?
irishspy on May 14, 2009 at 11:54 AM
Right Crissy. Because of being tortured, are reason enough to not watch your sorry ass, or Keith Overbite’s stupidity. You two are reason MSNBC’s ratings are in the bottom of the tank!
byteshredder on May 14, 2009 at 12:43 PM
***
The very limited abuse of 3 terrorist prisoners did not rise to the level of torture. It probably saved many more lives. Watch the videos of our citizens leaping to their deaths from the Twin Towers rather than burning to death–real torture.
***
Watch the BRAVEHEART or PASSION OF THE CHRIST movies to see what the “real McCoy” looks like. Or watch Ralph Peter’s BURIED IN THE SAND video on what Saddam Hussein (may he rot in hell) did to his prisoners. Waterboarding, panties on the head, and a few dog bites don’t even come close to torture.
***
Meanwhile–President Obama (PBUH) will trade hundreds of thousands of innocent U.S. citizen’s lives to a terrorist nuke attack on one (or more) of our cities–rather than getting the information and protecting us. Look at the Hiroshima and Nagasaki A-bomb attack results to see what may be coming soon in the new U.S.S.A.
***
John Bibb
***
rocketman on May 14, 2009 at 12:51 PM
I don’t know what’s sadder? The liberal media spinning this, lying, and shamefully, in order to do damage control, that they created….or the people out there, that will just go along, because damn…they’re liberals. Truth, integrity, and principles get thrown to the curb, just so long as their lying, Senator gets to keep her seat.
Pathetic!
capejasmine on May 14, 2009 at 12:54 PM
Uh, no. If Pelosi helped torture to happen (and it sure looks like she didnt do anything to prevent it), then she’s on the hook, too. Read some Glenn Greenwald or Andrew Sullivan. People who actually care about this issue dont care who the perps were. If Pelosi is culpable, let her suffer the consequences, too.
Torture is against the law, and everyone who broke the law needs to be held to account. Political party is irrelevant.
orange on May 14, 2009 at 2:00 PM
Right. Are you surprised? This is Chris Matthews we’re discussing. It’s like you’re complaining that water is too wet for you.
orange on May 14, 2009 at 2:02 PM
Like I read in “WARLORD”…….No Worst Enemy, No Better Friend
VikingGoneWild on May 14, 2009 at 2:19 PM
When they can parade former Gitmo detainees with missing limbs, eyes plucked out, deep scars and burns all across their bodies, ugly lobotomy scars across their foreheads…no genitalia…all permanent damage and can document 100% that Americans did this…then I will concede someone in government tortured.
But let’s be honest about it…fear is torture?
Let’s just stop sending our best young men and women off to war, because that is real fear, that moment before you step out of an aircraft on a static line, or scramble into a squad fire line when that Bradley stops and the tailgate drops…that is fear…real fear.
Until honest men and women engage in honest debate and leave hyperbole and “Bush Lied” at the door…the goal posts will be moved again and again and the lies from the Left will grow and grow…
Matthews is merely trying to reset the goal posts…nothing new here at all.
coldwarrior on May 14, 2009 at 2:19 PM
So now we’re not dealing in moral absolutes anymore? Well that’s good, but now they need to shut the hell up and let the CIA do their job!
Cr4sh Dummy on May 14, 2009 at 3:11 PM
Bush’s main failure was not to use Keith Overbite and Chrissy Matthews programs to extract information from terrorists. Imagine if those MSLSD shows were defined as an EIT/Torture, the left would go insane (well the left is insane, so that’s redundant) and their heads would explode like jiffy pop, or like those fire ants with maggots eating away whats left of their brains.
Democrap whores of the media, the Humpty Dumptys in the flesh:
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `I meant “there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!”‘
`But “glory” doesn’t mean “a nice knock-down argument,”‘ Alice objected.
`When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
`The question is,’ said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
`The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master – - that’s all.’
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again:
`They’ve a temper, some of them — particularly verbs, they’re the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole of them! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!’
`Would you tell me, please,’ said Alice `what that means?`
`Now you talk like a reasonable child,’ said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased.
`I meant by “impenetrability” that we’ve had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you’d mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don’t mean to stop here all the rest of your life.’
`That’s a great deal to make one word mean,’ Alice said in a thoughtful tone.
`When I make a word do a lot of work like that,’ said Humpty Dumpty, `I always pay it extra.‘
`Oh!’ said Alice. She was too much puzzled to make any other remark.
`Ah, you should see `em come round me of a Saturday night,’ Humpty Dumpty went on, wagging his head gravely from side to side: `for to get their wages, you know.’ (Alice didn’t venture to ask what he paid them with; and so you see I can’t tell you.)
eaglewingz08 on May 14, 2009 at 3:54 PM
Chrissy is a blathering idiot.
RobCon on May 14, 2009 at 5:18 PM
“instant pragmatists”?
It’s hard to follow Prissys logic so I’ll try an analogy and I’m not sure if this is close to what Prissy is trying to say.
Say we have I bank robber pointing a gun at a cop.
The Cop shoots the bank robber dead.
That’s okay, totally justifiable.
BUT, if we find out after the shooting that the gun was UNLOADED or a fake, then the cop just committed MURDER in the 1st degree.
Close?
Prissys world?
DSchoen on May 14, 2009 at 8:38 PM