Oh my: Obama to reverse decision on releasing new Abu Ghraib photos?

Terrye:

I honestly do not consider water boarding torture. I have seen it done and while it is very unpleasant, people get up and walk away unscathed.

Well, people have escaped the “dripping water” torture unscratched as well. Which is why the two of us apparently have different definitions of torture.

Remember, torture is a part of interrogation, and the target of any proper interrogation is not the subject’s body, but the mind.

And one can have one’s mind crushed metaphorically without any physical damage.

Though what our dear friends the Arabs do to those they truly want to put to the screws easily dwarfs waterboarding on the torture scale.

strangelet:

There is a minimum of proof that Turning was killed, let alone by his government or his countrymen. If anything, it is probably more likely the SOVIETS did it than the British, due to Turning’s “Heresies” and his value to British intelligence.

Turtler on May 12, 2009 at 7:11 PM

strangelet:

Gay FOX reporters? Probably, though they are likely closeted.

Though again: what does homosexuality, FOX, and Glenn Beck have to do with the debate or the thread?

Turtler on May 12, 2009 at 7:13 PM

Terrye:

Their minds were crushed? I don’t think so, they were freaked out and hated it and did not want to go through it again. That does not mean their mind was crushed.

You are misrepresenting what I said, though perhaps understandably.

I do imagine that one’s sanity could take a hit if waterboarding were endlessly repeated to an extent, as the mind can only take so much strain before giving way.

My point was that TORTURE itself is not defined only by the marks it leaves on the body, but also its effect on one’s mind. Indeed, several of the most feared tortures on this planet (isolation, water dripping, use of sounds) do NOTHING to the body, but can wreck havok on the mind.

THAT is what I was getting at: the Stalinesque or Hitleresque ability of a torturer to attack one’s mind as opposed to the body.

Is solitary confinement torture? We do it in American prisons every day and I would say that is much more likely to crush someone’s mind.

I would honestly say yes, if the term was long enough and PARTICULARLY if something was injected into solitary confinement specifically to attack one’s sense of sanity and reality.

But than again, we have different definitions of torture.

Yes, waterboarding is a mild torture when compared to the myrid out there, but the fact is that torture is not merely physical can be pr oven by a few of the guys who were rescued from the KGB.

Many of whom were perfectly fit and healthy were it not for the fact that they were stark raving mad.

Of course, many were also whipped bloody and had exposed bones, but that is merely a different TYPE of torture as opposed to being torture while the other was not.

Keep that in mind.

Turtler on May 12, 2009 at 7:27 PM

orange:

Then I would have to answer for that act in front of a court. It’s really not tricky. If people were tortured to save lives, then the president (Bush at the time) should have been open about it and, if he felt it was appropriate, he could pardon the torturers.

And here you fail to see one of the key reasons we were TORTURING them in the FIRST PLACE: to gain the data we need to damage the Terrorists and prevent their plots.

If we were to be perfectly open about it, not only would it give away our “game plan” interogation wise, but it could well lead to the enemy being tipped off.

But they didnt do that.

Ya THINK???

Partly because they never had this silly ticking time bomb scenario (since that never actually happens).

And how would you know, oh sainted one? You have access to the Classified files of the Pentagon?

A ticking time bomb isn’t merely a nuke with a cartoonish counter on the front, it is any enemy plan, any enemy weapon of considerable damage where there is precious little time to react.

And some of the people the Bush regime tortured were innocent.

And during the bombing of Dresden, we inadvertently wiped out one of the few true German resistance movements there were after blasting the meeting place of a group of Royalists planning an uprising in ADDITION to the massive damage.

But in doing so, we neutralized one of Germany’s strongpoints on the Rhine and helped hasten the collapse of the Reich and thus saved hundreds of thousands- if not millions- of lives.

You cannot be perfect in war.

But you can be good.

And mostly they were trying to torture them into confessing ties between Al Qaeda and Saddam in order to justify the invasion of Iraq which they desired long before 9/11.

In that case, they were being idiots and being redundant, as it was publicaly known BEFORE we went in that there was an alliance and a connection, and the documents and much-ballwhooed findings only confirmed that.

Oh yes, and any sources?

Turtler on May 12, 2009 at 7:36 PM

Terrye:

I think we have downgraded the definition of torture to such an extent, that it is meaningless.

True, but that is evading the point.

If water boarding is torture, then sleep deprivation is probably worse. It can effect your mind, for sure.

And THAT is why it is torture, and all one needs to do is crack open Solzhenitsyn (and countless Russian and German records) to see it.

But then again, if you are an Islamist and very dedicated, being questioned by a woman could have long term effect on your self esteem, so I guess we could call that torture too.

That isn’t torture unless said Islamist truly has an irrational, women-are-the-atomic-bomb-times-the-death-start-added-to-a-paper-shredder phobia of them as opposed to your traditional Islamist disgust of them. And even than, to truly qualify, it would have to have been deliberately.

But in 98%+ of cases, it just tees them off and lets them CRY torture as indicated in their playbook (which is why I do not trust their accounts).

But you are once again misconstruing my point.

Turtler on May 12, 2009 at 7:41 PM

strangelet:

There is documented proof that the Brits attempted to chemically change Turings sexual orientation.

And pray tell me where and what this “documented proof” is?

I’m disappointed in you, Turtler.

Because I keep kicking your butt?

You prolly pvp just like you argue.

You mean aggressively and with considerable ruthlessness? Than yes.

And I suppose you are the idiot who keeps running out into the middle and gets shot over and over again?

I bet you sukk in Warsong too.

What is Warsong and why should I care?

Turtler on May 12, 2009 at 7:51 PM

Terrye:

I mean come on, the whole idea is to make them give up information that they do not want to give up.

Yes, because torture is almost always used (save for a few sadists) as a cog in the greater strategy of interrogation.

Some people will come around with time, some won’t.

And to get a few of the resistant ones to crack, we sometimes must apply force, both mentally and physically.

This technique was used years ago on only 3 people who did not respond to other techniques.

Precisely. But the intensity and the deliberateness both classify it as a (relatively mild, true) form of torture.

So, unless they just roll over, then anything we do to get them to talk could be called torture, if it is unpleasant or scary enough..I just don’t buy that.

And neither do I, particularly given their tradition of lying.

That being said, I do believe that some of what we do does constitute torture as the old Chinese and Russian masters would understand it.

That doesn’t mean I don’t approve of its use, just on people not calling it what it is.

Turtler on May 12, 2009 at 8:06 PM