In Defense of Marriage
posted at 9:15 am on May 12, 2009 by Doctor Zero
Recent events have made the legal recognition of gay marriage a hot topic. Social conservatives are fighting a battle to preserve the traditional definition of marriage, and this battle is entering a crucial stage. The other side of the argument has enormous influence in the popular culture, to the point where one of its most outspoken activists can be invited to judge the Miss USA contest, and use his position to score political points. Social conservatives are presumed guilty of bigotry for daring to speak in favor of traditional marriage � as the Carrie Prejean affair demonstrates, they are treated more like defendants at a trial, than participants in a debate.
Whatever the motivations of the outspoken leadership of the gay marriage movement, there’s no question that many average gay Americans want the official sanction of marriage for the best of reasons: to honor passionate commitment and lifelong relationships. It’s essential for those who defend the traditional definition of marriage to make the case that marriage is worth preserving, when the consequences of winning the debate include disappointment, humiliation, and anger among gay people who wish to be married.
Marriage between men and women is a tradition that stretches back for centuries, into the history of the European nations that colonized America, and the history of virtually every other civilization around the world. Marriage is vastly older than various other features of modern life that we asked to accept as eternal and unchangeable, such as progressive taxation, or federal control of public education. It was not invented in the Fifties by stodgy old television producers, and we are not designing our nation’s law or culture from scratch, arbitrarily deciding to pencil in a mean-spirited homosexual exclusion to a newly minted �right.� We should be clear that proponents of the traditional definition of marriage are being asked to redefine something that has been part of human law and custom for most of our recorded history. The longevity of marriage, and its presence in almost every human culture, speak in its favor. Modern Americans often embrace the delusion they are the first generation to be capable of changing their ways, but our forefathers down through the centuries were perfectly capable of redefining marriage, if they had wanted to. The definition of marriage as a bond between a man and a woman has endured through the development of Western culture, under the influence of various religions, because it’s important.
Marriage is a basic building block for society. The marital bond creates families, and brings families together, creating an atmosphere of trust and loyalty that was crucial to the formation of ancient societies… but is also important to a technologically advanced democracy. The line of authority begins with man and wife, and builds into families, extended clans, communities, and nations. Men and women raised by parents who honor their lifelong pledge of devotion are better able to enter a democracy as strong, independent citizens who can fulfill their civic duties and use their voting power wisely. It’s common sense to recognize the advantage of having an extended family you can fall back on for support in tough times, and which can build wealth that benefits all of the family members. Simply owning a family home, which has been largely paid for by the older generation, is an enormous asset. People who can turn to their families when they hit rock bottom are less likely to demand welfare from the government. The pathologies of crime and welfare dependency are strongly linked to the explosion of children raised by single parents, as the no-fault divorce culture has weakened marriage. Families also provide emotional support that no amount of sterile government spending can ever duplicate. We never should have accepted the Great Society notion that raising children was primarily an exercise in accounting, treating them as line items on Uncle Sam’s budget sheet.
Solid marriages, and the families they produce, also contribute a powerful resource that has become scarce in modern America: honor, and by extension shame. Families help to build a sense of honor by holding children accountable for what they do to each other, and making them aware that they carry the family’s honor with them when they move into the outside world. People who are mindful that their actions reflect upon the reputation of a mighty family tree are more likely to conduct themselves honorably, and more likely to feel the sting of shame if their actions don’t measure up to the family’s standards. It’s sad that so many of us have to go through life without being able to look behind us and see the ghosts of our parents, and their parents before them, holding hands and standing united in their pride at our achievements… and their disappointment when we behave in a way that dishonors their memory. We live in a world that our great-grandparents could scarcely have imagined, and we should be grateful that they were able to build that world for us, and aware of our responsibility to build the world our great-grandchildren will inherit. A nation that runs up an incalculable national debt is not a nation that is paying enough attention to the needs of its great-grandchildren.
Those who were raised in a single-parent household, as I was, might object that it’s possible to develop these virtues without both a mother and father to teach them. This is very true, but it’s far easier to raise children and give them the strength of an extended family with an intact marriage. I doubt most single parents reading this would deny their jobs would be easier if the mother or father of the children was still around to help, and took their responsibilities to their spouse and children seriously. When you’re talking about the evolution of a civilization � the interwoven life stories of three hundred million people � it pays for society to revere and encourage the traditions which are most likely to produce free-thinking, industrious, lawful citizens.
If raising children within an intact marriage makes it, say, 10% less likely those children will be criminals, you can keep thousands of criminals from haunting the streets by encouraging intact marriages… and that 10% hypothetical figure is probably a very low estimate of the beneficial effect of intact families, among the demographics most prone to violent crime, drug abuse, and long-term welfare dependency. Our cultural elite has constructed a society in which they can indulge their libertine instincts, and preen themselves over how marvelously open-minded they are, while passing the cost along to people whose lives became intolerable when they became a little bit harder. European states have collapsed into tired old socialist nursing homes by failing to produce enough children to keep their cultures and economies vibrant. In Europe, a half-dozen elderly grandparents have only one grandchild to share between them. In America, we have a vast population of children who never meet their grandparents.
There are those who say that assigning an exalted, officially sanctioned status to married couples implies that single people are somehow less valuable to society. Some argue that child-rearing isn’t a sufficient argument in favor of marriage, because we don’t frown on married couples who never get around to having children, or are incapable of having them. This misses the larger point that a healthy America has plenty of room for spinsters, playboys, and career-minded power couples who can’t fit children into their lifestyle… but we can’t all be like that. The next generation will come from families who make the incredible sacrifices necessary to have two, three, or even more children, when many of their friends look at the bill for a stay in the maternity ward, and think about what a cool plasma TV and home-theater system they could have bought with that money. Love and faith � in the future, and in each other � make it possible for a man and his wife to make those return trips to the maternity ward, without which the future would be empty and poor.
The advocate of redefining marriage will say that same-sex marriages can provide the kind of solid family environment that is so desirable, and modern technology can make it possible for them to have children. This ignores the value marriage has for the men and women who are joined by it, even if they never raise a family. Too much of our social evolution since the Sixties has been distorted by the ridiculous article of faith among the elites that men and women are interchangeable. Men and women are different, and they need each other. Marriage civilizes and focuses men, who have traded their clubs and spears for footballs and videogame controllers, but remain the same competitive and predatory creatures they have always been. It places their strength at the service of the women they love. For a man who don’t choose to serve in the military, marriage is his greatest opportunity to swear absolute loyalty to someone in this world besides himself. When a man kneels before his love and asks for her hand, he is not kneeling because he’s weak… he kneels because he’s strong, and he’s ready to share that strength with his wife. It’s a promise that is not easy to make, or easy to keep. Four decades of increasing crime, declining ambition, and deepening poverty for the most unfortunate among us should have taught us beyond question how much husbands and wives, fathers and mothers, need each other. The freakish ideologues who sold American women idiocy like �a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle� owe several generations of women, and their children, a groveling apology.
Some advocates of redefining marriage would laugh at this description of marriage, and call it an ideal too many couples fail to achieve. They might say the epidemic of divorce since the Seventies proves that traditional marriage has become a tattered and threadbare flag that is not worth defending. On the contrary, the divorce explosion proves the necessity of officially respecting and encouraging the difficult commitment of marriage. We weakened marriage by redefining it as a temporary business arrangement between men and women, to be dissolved without hesitation or remorse at any time. We would weaken it further by redefining it as a temporary business arrangement between anyone. We aren’t doing ourselves any favors by abandoning ideals that are difficult to achieve. We haven’t been helping our children by discouraging them from reaching for the future together… by telling them “forever” is a silly word, or “always” is merely the opening bid in an extended negotiation. We’ve done a poor job of setting a good example for the younger generation, and now we’re trying to let ourselves off the hook by saying those marriage vows were unreasonably difficult to begin with. Marriage is valuable because it’s difficult.
The libertarian objection to official recognition of marriage is that people should not look to their government to legitimize their moral preferences. This has always been a hollow argument, because the laws of a nation inevitably reflect the morality of its citizens. It becomes a ridiculous argument in the face of the gigantic, activist, sanctimonious government and ruling class of modern America. If the government is going to become agnostic on the question of sanctioning marriage, it will be the first time in decades it has decided to become agnostic on anything. Politicians who tell us we have a moral imperative to drive smaller cars should not be allowed to fall silent when asked if we have an even greater imperative to honor our marriage vows.
The idea that defenders of marriage are pleading for state and federal laws to “legitimize” their beliefs has the situation exactly backward: the citizens of a nation have a right to expect the laws of their government to reflect their beliefs. The advocates of redefining marriage understand this instinctively. The point of their crusade is not to gain the “right” to declare themselves to be married… they can do that now, and many of them do. The point is to change the legal structure of the country, to express a revised, manufactured consensus that the sex of the people involved in a marriage doesn’t matter, and eventually this would be further revised to say that the number of people involved doesn’t matter either. The point of obtaining legal sanction for gay marriage is not to change how gay people feel about it.
Ordinary people, struggling to prosper and raise their children in a complex world, are tired of being told that everything they revere is subject to deconstruction and re-interpretation. They are tired of hearing that every standard they hold is an insult to those who don’t meet it, and every belief is an insult to those who don’t share it. They’re weary of being used as test subjects in grand social experiments. To maintain a common culture, we must have ideals with intrinsic meaning, just as some of the words in any language must have a clear and unambiguous meaning. Government is not something imposed from above on its citizens, in a democracy – its authority flows upward from them. They have a right to expect that government to honor the vows and commitments they have made between themselves, dating back to centuries before the United States of America existed. They have a right to live in a society that doesn’t expend its energies trying to condition them to forget something they have understood since the first time they saw their fathers and mothers standing together and smiling down at them in the cradle… and which they have respected since the first time they looked through a family photo album and dreamed about who would be standing beside them, when the picture of their own family was added. Redefining marriage doesn’t make lasting unions between men and women less important. It just makes them harder to find.









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Nope, a litigator.
But I have seen way too many instances where the husband walks all over the wife because he knows she won’t seek a divorce.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 1:23 PM
In one sense the marriage issue is separate from all the cases I mentioned but if gay marriage really is an ‘equal protection’ violation then most the arguments for SSM will be made to expand the number of these sorts of cases. One could argue for/against SSM on it’s ‘merits’ alone – I’m just pointing out where this is likely to go. Probably more importantly I’m arguing that for the vocal/powerful SSM proponents it’s really not about marriage – it’s only a stepping stone to what they really want.
gwelf on May 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM
I think anti-discrimination laws go too far. Businesses should be allowed more discretion in turning away potential clients. In the case of eHarmony I think they would have won in court, as well they should have. Being able to sue a business to change their model in order to accommodate you creates an undue burden on the financial backers of the business.
dedalus on May 12, 2009 at 1:32 PM
You always get my hopes up telling us that you have to leave to go somewhere, then crush them by sticking around for another hour.
BadgerHawk on May 12, 2009 at 1:35 PM
Quoth the Sufi. Which is sorta like mystical and stuff. And cool. Not Asatru cool, but still hip in an eastern sort of way. Trendy, even.
Like, it totally goes with your iPod Touch containing the latest Naruto episodes. Not that you’d let anyone know you watch it. Oh noes. Up front goes the Perfect Blue and the Evangelion (about which you’ve no doubt got some fascinating thesis regarding how it highlights the brutality of a post-colonial world). Or failing that something even edgier. Or something mainstream that you only like ironically.
And then like, some research articles you use to poke the NASCAR mouth-breathers. Not that you’ve done anything but skim the abstract but it gets the job done.
LOL. ROFL. ROFLCOPTER. LOLLERSKATES.
So. Utterly. Predictable. It’s like the living, breathing incarnation of 4chan took a correspondence course in literary analysis.
TheUnrepentantGeek on May 12, 2009 at 1:38 PM
The term “murder” is being incorrectly applied to all cases of death at the hands of another. Kind of like how manslaughter is not equivalent to murder in our courts. Usually when God condoned the killings it was in part a judgment on a people who had defied Him.
Not trying to justify anything here (before people start getting all butt-sore over justifiable homicide), just stating the context in which it all took place. =)
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 1:41 PM
I have a difficult time believing that access to easy divorces can possibly help any marriage. It more likely serves to end one prematurely.
clarifides on May 12, 2009 at 1:42 PM
Here’s a thoughtful as well as kind essay on a wry question:
starfleet_dude on May 12, 2009 at 1:44 PM
Heterosexuals are still going to be able to have kids after we legalize gay marriage. The family organizes itself out of necessity, and gay marriage won’t change that. Gay marriage changes nothing about the way the law treats straight marriages. It still provides the same incentives and disincentives that supposedly encourage family behavior.
The thing that Republicans and Democrats really fear about gay marriage, and I wish more of them would be honest about it, is that it sanctions homosexuality.
RightOFLeft on May 12, 2009 at 1:45 PM
I may have just wet myself reading that. Kudos sir.
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 1:45 PM
Lets compare apples to apples and not make ridiculous leaps.
A little known fact is that homosexuality was medically and psychiatrically defined as a mental illness up until the early 1970′s. Male on male sex is not just unnatural but it is quite harmful. It is the reason that the AIDS virus (as well as many other STDs) was spread so rapidly. This is due to the tearing of the anus and direct fluid to blood pathways that are created by such intercourse. Extreme male on male promiscuity has also contributed. In addition, the most virulent penicillin-resistant strains of skin-borne Staph. Aureus have been linked to homosexual bath houses in the US and Europe where multiple partners spread this via skin to skin contact.
Eventually you have to come to the obvious conclusion. That this behavior is unnatural, and it is deadly.
MechEng5by5 on May 12, 2009 at 1:47 PM
But that’s not your call. The alternative is to leave people in loveless or abusive marriages. That is unacceptable in a civilized society. People have a right to determine the health of their marriages on their own. Your argument turns marriage into the proverbial ball and chain. That’s certainly no enducement to marriage.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 1:52 PM
Perhaps if we made divorce harder to obtain people would think twice about marrying the loser who can’t hold down a job, the brute with violent tendencies (or his girlfriend who accepts it), or the gal that wants a henpecked man to mother and boss around instead of a husband.
Give people an easy way out and most will take it. Why use sound judgment when picking a mate if you can just sign a piece of paper and end it quickly?
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 1:54 PM
If the relationship is really that odious they still have the option of physically leaving their spouse. You make it sound like the marriage contract would force couples to co-habitate etc.
gwelf on May 12, 2009 at 1:57 PM
Because traditionally people get married when they’re relatively young, in their early to mid 20′s (largely because of the impetus to have children), and don’t necessarily understand what to look for to create a good marriage.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 1:59 PM
And you make it sound like they shouldn’t be able to leave that marriage and get a better, more loving one, simply because of some nebulous, abstract “threat” divorce represents to marriage.
Sorry. That’s not your call, nor should it be.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:01 PM
How did I make it sound like that? I made no comment on no fault divorce – I was pointing out that you characterize it as iron-clad and unbreakable.
Also, “That’s not your call, nor should it be.” isn’t really an argument – the same could be said of alimony.
gwelf on May 12, 2009 at 2:09 PM
Actually the alternative would be to expect better judgment out of people. I am willing to bet that behind every abusive or loveless marriage were warning signs that were ignored or overlooked in the hope that the other would change.
Obviously I’m not suggesting that spouses should be forced to stay in abusive marriages, just pointing out that the red flags are almost always there.
It all comes down to our tendency as a society to refuse to accept the consequences of our actions. Unwanted kid? Vacuum it out. Got AIDS from sleeping around too much? Demand a vaccine and expensive medical care. Your husband is a ne’er-do-well cheating bastard? He was that way when you met him, you just chose to ignore it. Demand a divorce, custody of the kids you should have never had with him, and half his stuff. Brilliant.
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 2:11 PM
That is what good parenting does, gives the example to their children of what a good wife or husband should be.
clarifides on May 12, 2009 at 2:11 PM
No-fault divorce is not the only alternative to illegality of divorce. Your argument is non-responsive.
What’s love got do with it? Public policy shouldn’t be about romance. Furthermore, your definition of “love” is narrow and reductive – merely transactional: all affect, no effect. Life, death, property, legacy – these all are indeed more important than that fluttery feeling that, saddest story ever told, vanishes over time.
CK MacLeod on May 12, 2009 at 2:12 PM
Again, I’m going to say that ALL references of marriage should be stripped from the tax code. Period.
I’m betting that this will not only make single people getting ripped off a bit better, but will also suddenly dry up a lot of the desire for gays to wedge themselves into this marriage issue.
Marriage is something personal between two people, it has no friggin business being endorsed by our government through the tax code reward system.
Spiritk9 on May 12, 2009 at 2:13 PM
Ponz on May 12, 2009 at 1:08 PM
Generally, the burden of proof rests on the one arguing for changing the well-established definition.
cs89 on May 12, 2009 at 2:14 PM
You made no comment, true, but that’s where you were going with it.
And absolutely it’s an argument. At its core, the opposition to no-fault divorce boils down to “Man and wife can’t get divorced because someone else thinks they shouldn’t.” Talk about telling people how to live. That’s just as bad as the Dems.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:16 PM
So we forgive the bad judgment and in essence encourage the creation of broken families? Or do we expect better out of people and allow them to deal with the consequences? Perhaps if people took marriage seriously and weren’t able to wriggle out of it faster than it took to hire a lawyer they would do their homework.
Forgiving bad decisions and not forcing people to accept their responsibility has created a generation of milk-fed adult infants.
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 2:18 PM
Maybe, maybe not. Different people need different things in a spouse. You make no allowance for human imperfection.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:18 PM
So you’re psychic? =) I don’t actually have an opinion regarding no fault divorce.
Do your believe alimony legal? This is also government telling people how to live.
gwelf on May 12, 2009 at 2:19 PM
What you fail to realize is that if it gets to the point where you want to leave your spouse, the family is already broken. The piece of paper that says you’re still married doesn’t change that. The divorce simply allows you to find a better, healthier relationship.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:21 PM
Depends on the reasoning for it. For instance, if a wife has given up her career to raise the children while her husband works, and now she needs a divorce, she’ll need time and resources to get her career going again.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:23 PM
You speak in contradictions. You say that “Life, death, property, legacy – these all are indeed more important than that fluttery feeling that, saddest story ever told, vanishes over time.” And yet, I am reducing marriage to something merely “transactional?”
Sorry, but the relgious element to marriage on its face requires love. If you think government should get out of the marriage business, that’s one thing, and I’ll agree with you on that. But taking love out of marriage makes marriage no different than a contract between GM and the UAW.
That being the case, please remind me why anyone would want to get married.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:27 PM
You can talk around the subject all you want, but you still haven’t explained how no-fault divorce doesn’t objectively devalue marriage. If I break a contract with a supplier in my business, then that supplier can sue me for harm. The award varies with the degree of harm.
No-fault divorce presumes that the societal cost of civil divorce proceedings will be greater than the societal cost of removing the penalties for malfeasance toward the marriage contract, and that alternative measures – child support laws, custody judgments, etc. – will take care of remaining harms to those deprived of care, affection, etc.
In short, NFD does not represent an absolute moral judgment, it’s a trade-off. It’s not immoral, a violation of anyone’s presumed freedom (unless child support laws are violations of freedom, for instance), or an argument in favor of entrapment in miserable marriages, to look at whether NFD has offered comparative advantages to affected individuals and to society at large.
CK MacLeod on May 12, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Ekshually, its Bleach and Death Note.
;)
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Sure, but the husband did not force her to do so – she chose to do this. How can the government impose a financial obligation on the husband for a decision his wife made? Just because they are married? I’m not against alimony but I’m just pointing out that government/law already does dictate terms of a marriage and so to use “government shouldn’t get involved” as a reason against no fault divorce yet to support alimony is inconsistent. Why is one intrusion of government ok but not the other?
gwelf on May 12, 2009 at 2:32 PM
Um, no. No-fault divorce is based on the judgment that the social cost of divorce proceedings is less than the social cost of forcing people to stay in bad marriages. It is also a recognition that forcing people to stay in such marriages is inherently immoral.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:32 PM
Usually, the decision is made jointly with the husband.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:34 PM
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:21 PM
The Highlander is right, no-fault divorce is not good for traditional marriage….still….it is an evolutionary form of divorce incorporating wider womens rights. In 19th century America only men could file for or be granted a divorce. Exactly like in shari’a law countries.
And just like slaves, women were once property in America.
;)
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 2:35 PM
When you spoke of divorce as being good for marriages, you meant the ease of moving on to a new one?? I suppose if quanity of marriages is the goal then easy divorce would help in that regard.
clarifides on May 12, 2009 at 2:37 PM
See? This is exactly why you get branded as the Patriarchy Party….you don’t think these arguments through.
Isn’t anything that moves us away from slavery and suppression of women’s and minorities rights a good thing?
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 2:37 PM
The availability of divorce encourages spouses to treat each other better and be more considerate of each other in part because they don’t want the other to leave them through divorce. If divorce is not available or is much more difficult, it is much easier to take your spouse for granted. At least.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:46 PM
If I’m subject to a fine for jaywalking, am I being “forced” to stay on the sidewalk? If I’m required to pay off an unwanted business partner for the lost stake in our partnership, am I being “forced” to continue that partnership?
As long as you keep on arguing no-fault divorce vs. a total subjection to marriage strawman, then you will keep on winning – in your own mind – but failing to advance the discussion.
If you were paying closer attention to the discussion and the evidence, you would understand that the larger gay marriage/anti-marriage agenda will claim women and minorities among its victims, along with children. Because the harms will arrive (as it appears they have begun to arrive in marriage-redefinition countries) in the form of second- and third-order effects of the first-order impulse – “feels good to give gays what they seem to want and stroke ourselves for being open-minded” – they will remain easy to look away from.
CK MacLeod on May 12, 2009 at 2:48 PM
The availability of divorce encourages spouses to treat each other better and be more considerate of each other in part because they don’t want the other to leave them through divorce. If divorce is not available or is much more difficult, it is much easier to take your spouse for granted. At least.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:46 PM
Divorce has always been available for men, cynic.
No-fault makes this a little more fair.
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 2:49 PM
Data please.
It doesn’t matter really, because the rights of free citizens in a republic trump your imaginary second and third order effects.
I’d respect you more if you just admit the truth.
The only reason to oppose SSM in a pluralist republic is because “god says so”.
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 2:53 PM
Strawman, huh? Please explain to me how can someone get out of a bad marriage without divorce. “Fault divorce” can be extremely difficult to prove — particularly if you don’t have money — and does not take into account mental and emotional abuse, the most prevalent form of spousal abuse. A lack of no-fault divorce effectively leave people trapped in such bad marriages. You call it a straw man, but it is the reality that there are plenty of such marriages out there. And you would leave them no effective way out. All because of … what? To preserve the institution of marriage. That does an abused spouse no good. And the abused spouse does the institution of marriage no good. You defeat your own objectives.
And, once again, please explain to me how exactly two loving gays getting married threatens married heterosexual couples. I have yet to see one concrete example, merely vague or abstract arguments. So, try it again.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:57 PM
And it encourages men to better treat their wives.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 2:58 PM
If easy divorce wasn’t so readily available, wouldn’t it be more logical that spouses would treat each other better, knowing that they have to deal with each other for the long haul? If I know I can get a no-fault divorce, I can treat my husband like crap, because I know I can get that divorce (and alimony and child support to boot).
There have been times in my marriage when the thought of divorce crossed my mind, and really only because it would have been relatively easy to do. I chose to instead work harder on our relationship, but I know of other couples in situations similar to my marriage who have divorced because of the stress (military). I completely believe that if no-fault divorce had not been available to them, they’d still be together. People just don’t want to work hard anymore on anything anymore, it seems.
Anna on May 12, 2009 at 2:58 PM
Then maybe they shouldn’t be together. They have the right to determine that for themselves, and not have someone else determine it for them through restrictive divorce laws.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 3:01 PM
I don’t believe that living under the divorce hammer makes for better relationships. That is so contrary to love, it goes more with obeying the speed limit to avoid a fine
clarifides on May 12, 2009 at 3:02 PM
This is a great entry, but I have to admit being a bit offended by this comment as I have an only child. I had a very difficult pregnancy, and a selfish spouse whom I love very much, that did not want to have another child. We argued over it, and after much prayer and consideration, I chose to keep to his wishes so as to save my marriage. We have now been married for 18 years, and have a very happy only child. Not having additional children in our case, had nothing to do with economics, and a lot to do with honoring one’s husband.
Susanboo on May 12, 2009 at 3:04 PM
In which case it is getting awfully close to a loveless marriage. Hence the need for divorce. But it does encourage both parties to work to improve the relationship.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 3:04 PM
Marriage has declined in the U.S. during the past 50 years without gay marriage being legal. Some like Stanley Kurtz will point to gay marriage countries but trace the decline in marriage to the beginning of the marriage movement by gays. By Kurtz’s argument one could contend that “speech” has a 3rd order effect of cheapening marriage and is worth curtailing.
Many people in favor of gay marriage don’t think carelessly about their own marriages and don’t see gay marriage as some government freebie–like extending welfare benefits. They work and socialize with gay people whom they respect as peers. They see them in committed relationships, some with kids. They see them paying taxes and contributing to the country with the same effort and dedication as themselves and view the marriage question as one of equality.
dedalus on May 12, 2009 at 3:05 PM
But that’s what many laws do, determine things for the rest of us. Maybe they shouldn’t have been together, but there are many couples today that get married knowing they have an easy out if things go sour. I’d rather have “restrictive” divorce laws in place, so that only those who have the responsibility to get married will take the plunge, then have whole generations of children learn that it’s okay to leave a marriage when you’re ‘not happy’ – or that contracts and committments can and should be broken for nebulous and sometimes selfish reasons.
No-fault divorce may be ‘good’ for the two parties that can’t see past their own issues (barring actual abuse/adultry/abandonment), but we all know it’s ultimately not good for any children involved. And personally, I don’t think it’s good for any of those involved, period.
Anna on May 12, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Do y’all understand how lame your claim to be the party of individual freedom and liberty is at this point?
You want regulation of divorce, abortion, and homosexual citizen rights.
No wonder you come off as frontin’ poseurs and retards.
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 3:19 PM
Anna on May 12, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Exactly right. It’s not. Personal experience.
Back on topic. Fine. Give gays the use of the word marriage so they can claim normalcy and sue churches to per form the ceremony. Why can’t triads get married, too? The three of them are in a loving relationship, also.
kingsjester on May 12, 2009 at 3:19 PM
If this is true then why does the divorce rate go up for 2nd and 3rd marriages? You speak of love only as an emotion rather than it’s true nature which does involve sacrifice and the giving of oneself.
clarifides on May 12, 2009 at 3:20 PM
Initial evidence – merely presented as suggestive, for now, rather than as remotely conclusive, and also presented because the explanations suggested by the Dutch scholars help illustrate some of the the second- and third-order mechanisms that may come into play.
I would have greater respect for you if you less often proceeded according to assumptions about what I or others think or believe.
As for what “god says,” I guess that would depend on how you define “god” – literally or operatively – and how you understand your god to speak. Being a negative-dialectical neo-gnostic myself, I’d be loathe to invoke the deity on the behalf of any position I take in debate, though I remain willing to look into what I believe people of good “faith” mean when they attach divine or quasi-divine provenance to their positions.
The moral precepts of the marriage re-definition proponents will sooner or later also boil down to leaps of faith and effectively sacrosanct precepts. Partly for that reason, I believe it usually makes for better policy and debate at least to attempt to examine utilitarian arguments before ascending, or descending, to When Moral Worlds Collide arguments.
CK MacLeod on May 12, 2009 at 3:28 PM
Indeed many laws do determine what the rest of us do, but generally only when there is a victim of wrong or malicious conduct. In many divorce cases that is not the case; the marriage just didn’t work. In others the abuse is difficult to prove or is subjective Divorce can be the least bad of a series of bad options. But, again, that is not your call. You have neither the right legally or morally to tell a couple they should remain in a bad, loveless or abusive marriage. That is their decision. Not yours.
Finally, no, we don’t know that divorce is bad for children, at least to the extent where it is worse than staying in an abusive or loveless home. Talk about teaching kids the wrong lessons. Yet you would do just that, all to “preserve” the institution of marriage. Putting the interests of “marriage” ahead of the interests of its participants shows a seriously skewed set of values.
Pro Cynic on May 12, 2009 at 3:34 PM
I only have anecdotal (my own) evidence as to why divorce is bad for kids. It’s on the first page if you’re interested. I know it’s not enough to convince others, but it’s convinced me, and I highly doubt my mind will be changed.
And, to add something I didn’t before, my mother was in an abusive relationship (I was verbally/mentally abused for years too). The demise of my mother’s relationship still affected me negatively, and the whole affair made me seriously question what love really was. It was quite astonishing that I ended up married myself.
Anna on May 12, 2009 at 3:41 PM
So, if the ship is taking on water, poke another hole in it below the waterline?
The gay marriage movement – I think it’s fair to call it a movement – may share origins, as well as activists, with the other forces that have helped contribute to that decline.
Kurtz will have to speak for himself on that one. As with many other subjects, we can accept the harmfulness of certain kinds of speech without leaping to the conclusion that such speech should be curtailed. If I don’t think your wonderful arguments should be curtailed, that doesn’t preclude me from admitting that they devastate my sensitive feelings.
Many people believe that heavier solids fall faster than lighter solids. Many people believe in astrology. So?
CK MacLeod on May 12, 2009 at 3:49 PM
After writing such a long post, I thought it was only fair to stay out of the comments and let others have their say. (Then I got a break from my day job, went into the Green Room to read what comments might have come in, and couldn’t figure out where the post went…) I just got caught up reading them all, and I had to respond directly to this one.
Susanboo, you should have no reason to be offended by that portion of the original post, and I’m sorry if you felt that way, even fleetingly. The hard reality of demographics requires a birth rate of 2.1 children, if I remember the number correctly. You can’t get to 2.1 unless you have lots of couples producing 3 or more children. It’s not derogatory to a couple with a single child, or couples with no children at all, to recognize and applaud the contribution of the families that make the incredible sacrifices needed to have three or four kids. (To say nothing of the mental stress of trying to keep on top of all those children!) I hope I can describe the importance of those large families, while also expressing my admiration for what you’ve done with your child, and my respect for what you’ve done for the sake of your marriage.
I’d like to thank everyone else who has contributed to this discussion without being vulgar and insulting, or dragging out their favorite straw men for a ritual beating. Happily, that includes most of the comments I’ve read thus far. A lot of thought and energy has gone into many of the responses, both pro and con. It would be hard to begin trying to respond to them in the comments section after being so late in getting caught up on them, but I hope those who raised objections to my original post will grant me the opportunity to address some of them in a follow-up post. I appreciate that this is not a simple debate, but I believe it is an important one.
Doctor Zero on May 12, 2009 at 4:01 PM
When gays push same sex marriage on the rest of us because they want to be able to marry in our courthouses and churches, and then want us to proclaim that they are legal, normal, and moral, they are doing the same thing to us that they say we are doing to them; Taking away our rights. The difference is that marriage is an age old tradition, and legally, and biblically, was created for one man, and one woman. If a gay couple wants to marry, they should go someplace where it is already legal, (because the people there, not the courts, made it so), instead of the minority pushing their immorality on the majority. The majority in CA. voted against gay marriage, (at least two times!) but the gay extremists have no respect for the vote, because it did not go their way and does not match their agenda, so they are screaming and harassing others.
In todays world, people can do most anything regarding wills, estates etc., by writing up legal contracts, provided there are not other “legal” spouses or children involved. But despite the people in this country giving in to gays to allow for this, and trying our best to be tolerant, and not hateful towards them, it is never enough. They have to have it their way, and we have to change our traditions, our morality to satisfy a small percentage of the population.
If men want to live together and be partners, fine, just don’t make me condone it. I, for one have had it, and cannot take much more of the pushiness of the left when it comes to this. Being against gay marriage is not discrimination, it is common sense.
Susanboo on May 12, 2009 at 4:14 PM
In response to your assertion that people were stroking themselves on a first order impulse. The issue you raised was their state of mind, not an opinion about an empirical fact.
If one believes that encouraging people to marry by recognizing their committed relationships is poking a hole.
Extreme personalities are drawn to movements, whether the goals are admirable or meretricious. One might have thought (as many did) in the 1960′s that black people should be treated fairly while being frightened of a black conspiracy involving Malcolm X or the Black Panthers that was going to change society in some unimaginably radical way.
Do gays really marry and form family units? To my mind that is a key question. The evidence isn’t in yet. To that end letting the states sort it out creates some case studies. If the states used the word “civil union” rather than marriage that would seem to be a practical arrangement while society figures things out.
dedalus on May 12, 2009 at 4:17 PM
Thank you for your response. I appreciate your post and agree with 99% of it.
Susanboo on May 12, 2009 at 4:20 PM
A thoughtful and intelligent post. An insightful read.
dedalus on May 12, 2009 at 4:20 PM
There was a time in which the majority in this country voted to keep black people as second-class citizens, even after slavery was abolished.
There was a time when you (I’m assuming from your username that you’re a woman) couldn’t vote because the majority decreed it.
If you can present to me a logical, factually-based argument as to how allowing two men or two women to enter into a civil union (Let us leave the term “marriage” out of it, because it carries a lot of religious connotation, rather than simply the government-sponsored contract that a civil union would be) in any way, shape, or form devalues what you and your husband have sworn before God, I’ll eat my hat. If you can prove to me that you’ve somehow LOST rights by allowing this to happen, I’ll also eat my shorts. Yours is a specious argument. A good analogy for it might be: “If we allow blacks to integrate, I’ll lose my RIGHT to not have to drink from the same water fountain and share theater seats with them.” You simply do not have a right to be the only subset of the population that is allowed the benefits of entering into a civil union.
Your church will determine who can get married there. The government has no business limiting who can get a tax bonus on the grounds that they are heterosexual or homosexual.
A marriage, just like any other promise that you might make in front of the God of your choosing, is: 1) Between you, the other party involved, and God. 2) Is only as valuable as your faith and willingness to keep that promise.
I will agree with you that judicial activism is not the proper means to put a close to this debate, but I take issue with
wv619 on May 12, 2009 at 4:26 PM
Um, apparently I fail at the internet.
To continue, I take issue with the argument that allowing civil unions for everyone somehow diminishes the tradition of marriage as it is defined by the various religions.
wv619 on May 12, 2009 at 4:30 PM
Any responses to my proposal earlier for Sexuality-Agnostic Partnerships (or Mutual Commitments)?
J. Max Wilson on May 12, 2009 at 4:32 PM
Your argument is about 30 years out of date. It mirrors the arguments in the decades soon after the sexual revolution and no-fault divorce, and ignores multiple studies release in the following years which have shown that divorce does harm the kids.
Study a little more before typing, if you wish to be taken seriously.
cs89 on May 12, 2009 at 4:38 PM
Wow. From the GreenRoom to the top posts.
BadgerHawk on May 12, 2009 at 4:39 PM
I understand the temptation to compare this with the civil right movement of the sixties, and black rights. I have nothing against gays, or blacks, and if gays were told they could not vote or live together or use the same restroom as me, then yes, it is a problem. But when gays want to change the definition of marriage, I have a problem with it.
Also, there has been at least one case where a gay couple sued a church, and the government forced the church to stop performing marriages completely or marry gays also. In another case, a photographer refused to photograph a gay marriage, and was sued, again, he lost. This is the problem. Where does it stop? It doesn’t. One thing will lead to another, and the majority will be told by the minority how bad we are, and forced to cater to this lifestyle.
This is very different from racial issues, and should not be compared. You seem to be a very reasonable person, and if all gays were reasonable, wouldn’t it be nice, but as seen from the San Francisco and other city gay neighborhood parties, and all the morality run amuck there, I believe that this lifestyle in general is unhealthy for families and our society in general.
Susanboo on May 12, 2009 at 4:42 PM
There are some valid parallels to be drawn.
The first issue you addressed is not so much an issue of marriage/civil unions/whatever as it is an issue of the government creating protected classes. I disagree strongly with this practice. Either we are all equal, and we are free to practice what we choose so long as we are not depriving anyone of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness, or we are not, and we live under the oppressive thumb of a government that picks winners and losers.
The gays might not have to use different water fountains, but they are denied a very specific set of government-sponsored tax benefits. The rest of it can be maneuvered around via contracts and wills. However, as long as the government continues to provide tax benefits to married couples, and continues to allow only heterosexuals to enter into a contract called “marriage” (Please note that I draw a very strong distinction between the Marriage that happens when you go into your church and do your thing before God, and the marriage that happens when you file your license with the government), it is in effect discrimination. And, as I believe that homosexuality is an inborn trait, it’s pretty much the same thing as skin color to me. I know there are differing opinions on this, but this is my take.
As to your last paragraph: I understand and share your frustration that this and many other agendas are pushed by the radical elements. However I don’t paint everyone with this broad brush. I have known many gay people, and most of them are sane, reasonable people that would want nothing more than to live peacefully like the rest of us. I hate it when people accuse me of being an Evangelical Fundamentalist Neocon Warhawk Wingnut ™ when they hear that I’m a conservative, so I try to follow the golden rule on this one.
wv619 on May 12, 2009 at 4:52 PM
dedalus on May 12, 2009 at 4:17 PM
Despite our differing beliefs about the likely results of marriage re-definition, we’re pretty much in agreement about a compromise position. As I also stated on a prior thread when discussing this issue with you, I don’t have any problem with people calling themselves “married,” holding celebrations, going on honeymoons, etc. I just don’t think that such people have a right to require the rest of us to accept their consensual value system to the extent of encoding it in the law in place of other’s consensual value system, along with all that an endorsement on that level will almost certainly entail.
CK MacLeod on May 12, 2009 at 4:53 PM
I’m quite certain this didn’t and couldn’t happen. There was a case in NJ, in Ocean Grove, involving a boardwalk pavilion that was owned by a Methodist group. There was no request that a Methodist minister officiate the gay wedding. The legal question revolved around whether the pavilion should be considered a church or a public accommodation.
dedalus on May 12, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Didn’t see that coming… dare I dream of being inducted into the Order of the Red Meat someday, with a juicy rare steak graphic?
It seems like a pretty incredible incident that Susanboo is describing, but something is nagging at my memory along those lines… maybe it’s the incident dedalus described. Still, it’s not far fetched to suppose that churches refusing to perform legalized gay marriages might face sanction someday, by the simple but crushing expedient of removing their tax exemption. I wouldn’t say it’s an inevitable outcome of legalized same-sex marriage, but it’s not a completely improbable one, either.
Doctor Zero on May 12, 2009 at 5:18 PM
Jeesus H Keerist inna Handcart.
You people
When gays push same sex marriage on the rest of us because they want to be able to marry in
ourtheir American courthousesand churches,and then want us to proclaim that they are legal, normal, and moral,Americans…….they are doing the same thing to us that they say we are doing to them; Taking away our rights.They are merely asserting their rights as American tax-paying citizens.No church can be forced to marry any couple. The church cannot be forced to marry divorced couples.
You are not just liars, but you are stupid easily fisked liars.
And this is happening because you were stupid.
You should have worked hard for civil unions and supported them.
Now its too late.
Bend over.
;)
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 5:30 PM
And you’re the modicum of thoughtful rational thinking.
Yep, quite thoughtful indeed. You and President Obama should go bowling sometime.
So we should allow someone to leave their spouse and run off with the car, the life savings, and the kids without any fear of prosecution?
As with most of the pro-vacuum crowd you probably don’t understand that most pro-lifers see abortion as depriving someone of their life without due process of law.
The very term “homosexual citizen rights” suggests that homosexuals are a protected class in need of specialized rights, as opposed to being treated equal under the law.
Even California rejected gay marriage. Sorry, but the citizenry is not ready for it yet. Bypassing the will of the voters through judicial activism, forcing the gay agenda down everyone’s throats, and insisting on a redefinition of an institution that’s stood for thousands of years is not going to score the gay community any points.
Isn’t it so much easier to paint broad generalizations? Helps keep the brain pain away. More brain power dedicated to watching super-violent Japanese anime porn.
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 5:31 PM
Good post.
More please.
Gaunilon on May 12, 2009 at 5:34 PM
Doctor Zero on May 12, 2009 at 5:18 PM
Just imagine the controversy over the various “two daddies/mommies” books at public schools and exponentiate it several times to get an idea of one area of future nuclear combat. In some jurisdictions teachers will be punished if they use hurtful words like “father” and “mother” to refer prejudicially to parents, or if they define “family” as man, woman, offspring, and so on.
In Canada, ministers who re-state church teachings against homosexuality are now prima facie guilty of hate speech. Meanwhile, public services billboards and other announcements routinely vilify husbands in traditional families as violent beasts. The public service campaigns in the Netherlands intended to encourage acceptance of marriage re-definition are thought to have contributed to an accelerated decline of the institution of marriage in that country.
More evidence needs to be gathered – with an open mind to counterevidence as well.
CK MacLeod on May 12, 2009 at 5:35 PM
Perhaps you should be reminded that the great Satan himself, former Vice-President Dick Cheney, is on record for supporting civil unions.
But again, accepting that conservatives have different viewpoints might make the brain pain come back.
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 5:37 PM
Its too late, Highlander.
Game over.
Cali will fall too, if not now, soon enough.
You should be strategizing for the long war.
This battle is lost.
;)
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 5:40 PM
So what if Cheney supported civil unions? Most of base was yukkified by them.
Instead of throwing your much vaunted christian charity behind the civil union movement, you went wilin’ out on the
icky manlove closet pedophileshomosexual citizens that wanted legal recognition of their unions. Now you’re all, civil unions! civil unions!….but that ship has sailed.strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 5:46 PM
Shouldn’t you go back to playing World of Warcraft? I think the servers are back up.
Gay marriage is still illegal in many states, and a majority of Americans are against it. Not quite over.
Yes, because it takes one judge to overrule a state proposition that was legally and overwhelmingly passed by the voters of that state. I suppose law and order is just a nuisance if you just want something bad enough.
California has been a lost cause on many levels, for many years now. Judges writing and overturning law at will is just a symptom of a much larger problem.
I’m sure people are. Meanwhile the gay lobby is quickly exhausting what little political capital they might have had by the shrill and persistent arguments for fundamentally changing a societal standard that most people want to leave intact.
Keep trying. For the record, as a libertarian at heart, I don’t care if gay people go to their local Moose Lodge, tabernacle, or Chuck E. Cheeses and have someone do a little rain dance and declare them whatever they think “married” is. Just don’t insist that everyone recognize it.
Really…your level 80 warlock is waiting for you.
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 6:01 PM
Here in Massachusetts some of my parental rights were lost after SSM marriage became legal. Prior to that, public school systems had a policy of sending home warnings to parents when issues related to homosexuality were to be discussed in the classroom (elementary school). After the SSM ruling and subsequent legalization of SSM in 2004, the warnings ended. When outraged parents complained, they were told that now that SSM was legal they were under no obligation to issue warnings. Since the state now looked apon both gay and straight marriages equally, so would the public school curriculum. Parental rights were lost here because of state recognition of SSM. And this is exactly what the agenda is. It’s not about gays being deprived of some right. Most gays here in Massachusetts are not even availing themselves of the marriage option. Legalization of SSM is all about forcing approval of gay marriage through it’s effects on public schools, discrimination law, adoption policies, etc.
frank63 on May 12, 2009 at 6:02 PM
Oh God…they’re not…all…alike…must…watch…Daily Show…for funny…dumbed down news makes…brain not hurt…
Yes, because most Christians want to use their charity to recognize a union that goes against their moral values. As opposed to, you know…helping the poor (with voluntary dollars and time as opposed to government-brand forced charity) and supporting missionary work.
Me personally? Or are you trying to keep the brain pain away again by busting out that broad brush?
I do have to admit though, I find manlove quite icky, but mostly because as a heterosexual man I find all men disgusting, lumpy, hairy, smelly creatures, and I’m continually amazed that there aren’t more lesbians in the world.
The fact that my wife can look at my naked form and muster up any kind of sexual excitement proves to me the existence of a loving, benevolent God.
So ALL of us were so against changing the definition marriage that we were willing to alienate a very small percentage of the population, and ALL of us only changed our mind when that very small percentage decided to bolt for greener pastures?
If you were paying attention it’s not the only issue conservatives are worried about, and with the government spending our money like a hopped up fifteen year old with her daddy’s credit card, it’s hardly the most important issue of the moment.
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 6:23 PM
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 5:30 PM
Juvenile outbursts like that make me feel guilty for sometimes taking you seriously.
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 5:40 PM
Well, we’ll just have to wait and see, won’t we? Bluster about inevitability is tiresome. Certainly not the first time we’ve heard people trying to impose their vision of the world on others claim that “history” was on their side.
It’s a waste of time to argue with people who continually change the subject and resort to vouching when they find dialogue too difficult.
CK MacLeod on May 12, 2009 at 6:29 PM
So homeschool.
Its your right.
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 6:29 PM
There exists no Constitutional right for you to helicopter over your children, lest they find out that there are homosexuals in this world. You lost some measure of comfort, but you lost no right.
wv619 on May 12, 2009 at 6:32 PM
wv619 on May 12, 2009 at 6:32 PM
I’m pretty sure the vast majority of U.S. citizens would agree we all have the right to “helicopter” over our own elementary-age children however much we want.
Schools don’t have parental rights over kids. Parents do.
cs89 on May 12, 2009 at 6:39 PM
Schools don’t have parental rights over kids. Parents do.
cs89 on May 12, 2009 at 6:39 PM
Then homeschool.
But you know….at my cousin’s school she told me her friend that is a Jehovahs witness gets picked up early by her parents everytime there is an inclass bday party.
I bet you can work something out with you childs teacher….but …..I bet you don’t really want to….because you would rather hyperventilate with faux outrage.
;)
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 6:45 PM
Sure, I’ll get right on that. Whoops, neither of us can afford to quit our job because half our paychecks go to taxes.
“Well, can I at least get the tax money that would have been used to educate my child refunded back to me?” Nope, drop dead…we need it to send the NEA bosses to their quarterly fact-finding trip to Aruba.
“Jeebus, can I at least write off the expense of getting sufficient training to homeschool my kids?” Nah, not so much. Besides, where else will your kids learn to accept deviant lifestyles and reading at a fifth-grade level by age 17?
Embrace your government school. Churning out good little Democrats since 1955!
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 6:46 PM
That’s you, not me, Highlander. You want to impose socio-religious mores on unwilling citizens in a Republic.
Kylon would be proud.
I have never rolled a warlock.
I’m always a healer.
;)
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 6:50 PM
And gay marriage advocates somehow don’t?
Explains a lot. Healers are always so emo.
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 6:53 PM
Those socio-religious mores are, still, the republic. You all are the moving party on this one. The rest of us were just minding our business.
CK MacLeod on May 12, 2009 at 6:55 PM
I’ve been a holy priest since 2004 >.>
TheUnrepentantGeek on May 12, 2009 at 7:02 PM
…
You’re not allowed to like stuff I like. You must conform to my unflattering stereotypes about you.
TheUnrepentantGeek on May 12, 2009 at 7:05 PM
So you’ve been emo for five years now? Isn’t that exhausting? =P
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 7:07 PM
You’re a rogue, aren’t you? I’m so writing bad things about you in my slam book.
TheUnrepentantGeek on May 12, 2009 at 7:09 PM
You still haven’t explained what right was lost when the state stopped informing you about when the government school you send your kids to was going to mention the fact that there are people in the world who like people of the same sex.
Wonder why that is…maybe because you didn’t.
You send your kids to GOVERNMENT SCHOOL. If you want them to grow up believing that gays are deviant molesters that deserve to be treated as second-class citizens, find a private school that will teach that, and send them to it.
wv619 on May 12, 2009 at 7:15 PM
Getting back on topic here…
Actually any decent, well-adjusted person would examine themselves as well as their marriage and find a way to make it work. A family isn’t broken until someone quits.
As opposed to working hard and making your first commitment work despite hardships and past mistakes. But that doesn’t make a dime for the divorce lawyers.
No offense, but you mentioned that you’re a litigator, and your argument sounds like the well-rehearsed speech of someone who is required to justify divorce on a daily basis.
And being a salesman who has well-rehearsed arguments for every customer objection, I think I can spot them fairly well. =)
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 7:21 PM
Nope, they aren’t.
Unless you can provide a secular reason to oppose SSM, you’re done.
We have no State Religion, as Jefferson pointed out.
;)
strangelet on May 12, 2009 at 7:26 PM
Good call, although she’s been languishing at level 70 since my guild fell apart. And yes, I made her a night elf so I can stare at her butt while I play.
TheMightyMonarch on May 12, 2009 at 7:27 PM
You’ve got way more faith in people’s willingness to live together in disagreement than I do – especially in the face of shifting cultural mores that you admit exist.
Regardless, civil unions for all would be the way forward in a secular pluralistic society. I never got the culture warrior arguments for marriage, but then I’m not really a culture warrior.
TheUnrepentantGeek on May 12, 2009 at 7:33 PM
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