Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross is believed to have fulfilled the Judaic requirement for blood to wash away sin and guilt – but why blood? Why even death? Why couldn’t God merely choose to forgive us, and let it go at that? Couldn’t God choose to exercise mercy without justice?

Of course the Passion is at the heart of God’s love for us; it’s the most profound way we know that God loves us and even suffers, not only along with us, but in our place. That has a value and meaning we can never fathom. But still I ask – why did it have to be?

http://www.higherpraisetube.com/video/2399/WELCOME-TO-OUR-CHURCH

We didn’t produce this video, but this IS how we roll. And we have great coffee and absolutely *killer* maple-oatmeal scones before service.

This life is about becoming. Our rewards will depend on who we have become.

petunia on May 12, 2009 at 12:51 AM

I really like that, petunia.

JiangxiDad on May 12, 2009 at 1:19 PM

Ah ok, yeah, I agree with you. By its nature, the aesthetic argument is one that requires fertile ground, so to speak, for it to make an impression. In Puddleglum’s case, the witch he’s talking to likes the underground world that he is decrying, because its her world, so what he says means little to her. In fact, his words would make someone like her less receptive to his position.

But then, he wasn’t saying what he did for her benefit, he was saying it for the benefit of Eustace, Jill and the Prince Rilian, to wake them up from the witch’s spell of forgetfulness.

The cross and the message of grace is beautiful to me because I know I’m a wretch without hope in a world filled with misery and injustice. I don’t belong here; this world is not my home. I wasn’t convinced of that fact, I knew it in my heart before I knew anything of God. It wasn’t until I heard about the cross of Christ that I had any hope for myself or this world.

To those that like this world as it is, who like the reflection in the mirror, who live for money, power, glory and fame, the cross is at best a fascinating story, but fundamentally no different from any other fable. To them the “good news” is just news. The healthy don’t need a physician.

I recognize the concepts of Dharma and moksha as described in those links. I believe in the ultimate divine origin and destiny of mankind. I sense our common human longing for justice and peace and elevation is found in those concepts.

However, Mormonism is built first and foremost on Jesus Christ. He is the Son of God, he is the example. His teachings are what we seek to emulate. It is by and through Jesus Christ that we come to a full knowledge of God. It is only through the Atonement of Christ that we can become worthy of all God has to offer us.

We are saved not by our works alone but through the grace of Jesus Christ.

petunia on May 12, 2009 at 12:10 PM

I know next to nothing about Mormonism but I think the similarities are,

1. Importance of righteous conduct/Dharma for salvation/moksha

2. Doctrine about spiritual elevation of mankind.

Again my apologies for any inadvertent inaccuracy.

spmat on May 12, 2009 at 12:49 PM

I just meant I don’t see the thought/reasoning expressed by Lewis in that quote to be exclusive to Christianity. It seems to me that anyone questioning god’s existence would sooner or later stumble upon the idea expressed there. I certainly did, long before I ever heard of Lewis, and not from any religious source for certain. It seems to me that many of the comments above reflect the same line of thinking. IMO, it is by no means a sufficient reason to believe in God, but perhaps a necessary one.

To those that desire an answer to the problem of evil and injustice can see it clearly in the cross of Christ. It is a better way, irrespective of being the only way.

spmat on May 12, 2009 at 12:49 PM

Yes, but if you believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to God… what of all those who were created in the image of God but have no opportunity to know Christ?

God loves all his children wouldn’t he have provided a way for all to come to him?

In traditional European Christianity so much of the world is left out of the Atoning Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God is not respecter of persons, he did provide a way for those outside of Christianity to grow and become better in this life.

And he does provide a way for them to accept Christ’s sacrifice in the next life. This life is not all there is.

But people come to that on their own, without any knowledge of the book you quoted, or Christ, or Christianity, or any organized religion. I see it as a gnostic theme myself.

JiangxiDad on May 12, 2009 at 11:49 AM

Not sure I follow you. How can one cling to the beauty of the cross without knowing of its existence? That’s what makes the gospel the “good news.” It is the preaching of “Christ crucified,” risen and reigning.

Yes, experiential relevance and logical coherence are necessary for a complete apologetic, but I’m not talking about argumentation. I’m talking about personal confirmation and resonance.

In fact, this argument might be one of the most compelling to those outside of the Christian faith, as it does not destroy by tearing down through logic but instead appeals directly to the heart and subjective experience. Gandhi is an example of what I’m saying. The only thing that he could not reject out of hand was the cross, the innocent dying for the guilty. To those that desire an answer to the problem of evil and injustice can see it clearly in the cross of Christ. It is a better way, irrespective of being the only way.

petunia on May 12, 2009 at 1:58 AM
Yes I had the impression Mormonism is somewhat from other branches of Christianity, in fact I find some similarity between Mormonism and Hinduism (no offense intended)

Gaurav on May 12, 2009 at 2:32 AM

None taken. We try to respect all religions even if we disagree.

Our 13th Article of Faith is: We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous and in doing good to all men, indeed we may say we follow the admonition of Paul, we believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things and hope to be able to endure all things, if there is anything virtuous, lovely, of good report or praise worthy, we seek after these things.

I know little about the tenets of Hindus. But I see goodness in their lives, I am grateful for their goodness.

spmat on May 12, 2009 at 11:43 AM

But people come to that on their own, without any knowledge of the book you quoted, or Christ, or Christianity, or any organized religion. I see it as a gnostic theme myself.

“One word, Ma’am,” he said, coming back from the fire; limping, because of the pain. “One word. All you’ve been saying is quite right, I shouldn’t wonder. I’m a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won’t deny any of what you said. But there one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things – trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that’s a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We’re just babies making up a game, if you’re right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That’s why I’m going to stand by the play world. I’m on Aslan’s side even if their isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we’re leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that’s small loss if the world’s as dull a place as you say.”

The cross of Christ is the most compelling story I can imagine. I would worship Jesus for the sake of the narrative alone; the fact that it is all true is supplementary.

‘The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life’

God allows man (including atheists) to exist within His creation: not the other way ’round. Q.E.D.

SnarkVader

Sorry if I’m repeating someone here, but God created man and man created religions.
Atheists have a smug superiority because they believe they apply “reason” to life and eschew superstitious clinging to a creator. They are their own gods, powerless and impotent and devoid of any meaning beyond their own skin.
But God loves all his children but He will not grab you and drag you back to Him. He will wait for you to turn back toward Him and embrace Him again (He has always embraced you). This is true up until the moment of your death in this world. Only then is all hope lost.

Are you utterly unaware of popular music? Pop music in general is exactly what you think it can’t possibly be.

However, I like the description here of growing faith. That’s been my own experience.

Ah I’m done. Sorry for the long winded post.

blatantblue on May 11, 2009 at 11:35 PM

Another conundrum. I bet a big part of your self-reliance, independence and strength comes from not submitting to what you worry is merely a pleasing fantasy. But even if you successfully resist the attraction, you’re just left essentially alone again, albeit tough, having to be satisfied with what is so often such a silly world of man, useless in the ways you mentioned. Let’s face it, the people who so boldly don’t believe in God don’t seem to ever be doing anything better with their time. Twitter???

A good thing to do is have a wife and especially children, and take care of them. You will find a need in your children for you so great, that you will thank God for being alive. In the end, I don’t think there is anything but love to make living worthwhile. Get moving :)

Muslims are also extensively against music.

A lot of music is from worship sources. How do you write tunes to worship self? Praise self hedonism? That won’t sell.

blatantblue on May 11, 2009 at 11:35 PM

I want to hug you! You know, we are all practical atheists from time to time. To borrow(well, butcher) a line from one of my favorite theologians, there is a deeply rooted atheism within the hearts of men that crowds out the things of God within the mind and conversion does not automatically change that. Our desires for God are in a constant battle with the world, flesh and devil. We ARE men. We change.

You are in the company of many “greats” who have lost their taste for life, food, etc., when practically abandoning their faith in Christ. It is an easy thing to do, even as a believer. You are recognizing truth and should pursue it. But, churches of today are not holders of the propositional truths of God, entirely. If you are in the NYC area, there is a GREAT church (pastor Tim Keller) I’d love to go to if I were there…
http://www.redeemer.com/

In fact, check out Tim Keller’s book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0525950494?ie=UTF8&tag=wwwredeemerco-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0525950494

I haven’t read it, but, I have heard him speak and he is pretty good.

For the record, I LOATHE Purpose Driven Life. Anyone who says “Christianity gives purpose and meaning in life” as the chief argument for the existence of God and the truth of scripture is, how shall I say this, hurting rather than helping. It isn’t subjective and not based on our felt needs, but, rather, it is propositional truth. It is rational. It is coherent. It is comprehensive.

In the end, it GIVES meaning, but, that is subsequent.

My own walk mirrored this man’s. I liked this…thanks for posting it.

radiofreevillage on May 11, 2009 at 11:54 PM

OldEnglish on May 12, 2009 at 12:43 AM

You two are just sad.

Why are you atheists always trying to cause strife? Because deep down you know you’re miserable, and you think it validates you to spread it around. Happy people really bug you, don’t they?