Matthews to Tancredo: Do you or don’t you believe in evolution?
posted at 7:35 pm on May 6, 2009 by Allahpundit
A reprise of last night’s ballyhooed fiasco with Mike Pence. Sir Tancelot does better — he’s not evasive, at least — but to borrow a line from “The Princess Bride,” I’m not sure “intelligent design” means what he thinks it means. Near as I can tell, he’s attempting to square the circle by imagining an essentially deist god (or intelligence) that created all species in some primitive form and then let evolution go to work in turning them into the creatures we know today. I thought most ID-ers believe that life today is, more or less, how the designer originally designed it. If not, if it’s simply about proving that there’s a designer somewhere in a process that might have taken billions of years, then it’s really just Darwinism + a remote God at the very beginning, no?
I’m not sure what he means about there being no trans-species transitional fossils, either. What about Archaeopteryx?
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HA readers to Matthews: “F*** Off.”
bluelightbrigade on May 6, 2009 at 7:36 PM
IT’S JUST A BIRD.
Haha creotards, I beat you to the punch.
justfinethanks on May 6, 2009 at 7:37 PM
No.
Loxodonta on May 6, 2009 at 7:38 PM
Someone’s desperate for ratings now that the election’s over.
Wethal on May 6, 2009 at 7:38 PM
If Matthews is finding his journalistic spine (now months after Obama and Rev. Wright), why doesn’t he join Moyers in outing gays?
Upstater85 on May 6, 2009 at 7:40 PM
Hey Chris, since you so into science, why don’t you dump all the junk global warming science and start doing some real science.
No, Chris and his ilk will keep taking anti-global warming scientists and continue to bound them to stones and throw them in the river to see if they float.
RobertInLexington on May 6, 2009 at 7:40 PM
When is Matthews going to ask Obama if whether or not he believes in a voucher program?
Upstater85 on May 6, 2009 at 7:41 PM
Every species is transitional. In the big picture, today’s birds are transitional between dinosuars and whatever a bird will look like a million years from now.
Cicero43 on May 6, 2009 at 7:41 PM
Who cares? Rome is burning.
ctmom on May 6, 2009 at 7:41 PM
- What about Archaeopteryx?
What about Mothra?
What about our growing 35 trillion dollar debt and a President who is Going Queeg?
TexasJew on May 6, 2009 at 7:43 PM
ALLAHPUNDIT AND CHARLES JOHNOSN AND CHRISSIE MATTHEWS WON’T STOP UNTIL WE’RE ALL ATHEISTS.
reliapundit on May 6, 2009 at 7:43 PM
I believe in evolution!!
Matthews evolved from a very wet, squishy clean-up towel from a Greek bath house circa 640 B.C.
BigWyo on May 6, 2009 at 7:43 PM
I object to the use of the word “believe”.
OldEnglish on May 6, 2009 at 7:44 PM
When dealing with conservatives they stick to the script…
Homosexuality
Dinosaurs
Abortion
Never deal with policies.
When they do trip up and actually discuss policies they quickly get their collective group think asses handed to them.
RobertInLexington on May 6, 2009 at 7:45 PM
I hate this topic. Makes our side look dumb and the media loves it. Answer: It doesn’t matter. Take it up with your local a school board, not federal officials. There’s more important things to worry about.
brak on May 6, 2009 at 7:45 PM
Oh, but it’s such a good diversion from real issues that actually matter.
RobertInLexington on May 6, 2009 at 7:47 PM
The bigger question is: Why is Chris Matthews still on the air?
sherry on May 6, 2009 at 7:47 PM
Terrific.
Allahpundit on May 6, 2009 at 7:47 PM
This is the kind of polarizing statement that drives conservatives into camps. I believe in G-d and I accept that evolution is current best explanation for the development of and variety of life on the planet. Please don’t tell me I can’t be a conservative if I ‘believe’ in evolution.
ProfessorMiao on May 6, 2009 at 7:48 PM
Chris Matthews ancestors.
You can appreciate the resemblance.
ericdijon on May 6, 2009 at 7:48 PM
Gimme a break (any limb).
What is with this sudden litmus test of what is and isn’t a conservative? It is nothing more then a schoolyard neener-neener moment for MSNBC. I’m one of those Big-Bang Christians and if you think that means I can be neither Big-Bang nor Christian then I have a size 11 that matches the size of your caboose almost exactly.
Limerick on May 6, 2009 at 7:48 PM
ID is a curiou group of ideas.
There is the group of IDers foer whom ID is the “science” aspect of creationism (whether old or young earth). That’s a big bunch of ID.
Then there are the minority group (like Behe, and a few others) who are not creationists, but think that intelligent design is how life evolved (wrpa your head around that!). Behe would say that ID is how his deity achieved evolution bu common descent.
ID as stated either way is crackpot science, for sure: it’s publication record is somewhere south of dismal, and its strongest empirical basis (irreducible complexity) has been demolished conclusively on empirical, theoretical and philosophical grounds as science. It works OK as a theological notion, but as a scientific notion it is frankly horrible.
HiHo on May 6, 2009 at 7:49 PM
Don’t you be talking smack about Allahpundit like that! :-P
DaveS on May 6, 2009 at 7:49 PM
Seriously, what the hell does this have to do with the price of cheese?
More proof that Matthews is a tool without a scintilla of journalistic credibility . . . as if we needed further evidence of that.
sdun1 on May 6, 2009 at 7:50 PM
That’s exactly what ID is and always has been. Young-Earth Creationism is just one view within the larger ID belief. No wonder this argument never gets anywhere if we can’t even agree on the terms we’re using.
Nosferightu on May 6, 2009 at 7:50 PM
If you want proof of trans-species transitional evolution in birds, you don’t need to look at Archaeopteryx or any fossils. Behold.
Loxodonta on May 6, 2009 at 7:50 PM
Why doesn’t Chrissy ask Dear Leader if he believes the things Rev. Wrong spewed from the pulpit for 20 years? Now that would be entertaining.
NebCon on May 6, 2009 at 7:51 PM
I wonder if AP is trying to instigate a 1000 comment thread, or simply going Hawaii Johnson?
Eather way, Darwinism and evolution are not problematic only to cranky ID theorists. It is also abominable to people who think science’s purpose is to formalize facts using Scientific Method, not to suggest a philosophy. Evolution is not scientific, mutation is. A scientist can’t give a subjective name to a bioligical process. That’s not science – that’s a-deistic crap.
Aristotle on May 6, 2009 at 7:51 PM
It does make our side look like backwards doofuses who just want to turn science classes into Bible Study. If you believe in Creationism and DI, fine, but thats what you have church and home for.
Its some wierd relationship that I have not figured out yet, how many leftists and liberals have no personal interest in science (it actually has right answers instead of being feelings based) but are not hostile to it.
However many Republicans and Conservatives, who should naturally find science more logical and appealing, will be the first ones to be hostile to it. Most scientists I know arent flaming lefties, often moderate or conservative.
firepilot on May 6, 2009 at 7:51 PM
The vast majority of Americans are creationists, and believe God created everything much as it is within the last 10,000 years. Then there is the group that thinks evolution was God’s tool. There is another 25% or so (can’t remember the exact number… probably less than that) who believe billions of years ago there was so much nothing that it exploded in to everything. And then rain came on Earth, and the it pooled on some rocks and was hit by lightening….
At any rate, I’m not going to watch this because I can’t stand listening to Matthews, so I can’t really offer a take on what Tancredo said, just some clarification for Allah on what creationists believe. Most are young earth creationists, and then those who are more wishy washy and don’t want to have to argue about it tend to be old earthers, who say evolution was God’s tool. I should say most of the old earthers are “wishy washy”… I have heard a few offer interesting theories on how the 6 days aren’t necessarily 6 human days, as it was from God’s persepctive… Seems to me Bryan actually offered one up when he blogged here.
I’d like to engage on Archaeopteryx too, but the Celtics game is about to start.
RightWinged on May 6, 2009 at 7:51 PM
God created the earth in a literal 6 days like the Bible states, that is the way the Hebrew is written, does not mean periods of time, look it up. This does not negate natural selection or species adapting to environment, etc. However, that is a far cry from molecules to man evolution which has NEVER been proven. I continue to challenge the Darwinists, how does matter create information? How did some primoridial soup end up creating DNA? Information cannot be created by matter, evolution cannot explain that away. Atheists and Darwinists want to exclude the first 11 chapters of the Bible so they don’t have to answer to their creator nor do they have to account for their sins. All of Scripture rests on these chapters, every doctrine of the Bible. Either you understand it’s truth or you reject. You cannot explain the need for a Savior without the fall of man. It will not work.
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 7:51 PM
I’d love to interrogate Matthews about how deep his knowledge of biological evolution is. He claims to be a believer in biological evolution, but I’m willing to bet that he doesn’t know jacksh!t about the theory – as is true with most liberals.
If he really believed in evolution, and had any true understanding of the theory, then he would realize that there are no moral questions or considerations about humanity in a world generated through biological evolution. Ants are organisms no different from humans, according to evolution.
But Matthews really doesn’t understand evolution. He just thinks that he sounds cool and smart if he says he believes it, but, in the end, he just sounds dumb in espousing something that he doesn’t understand at all.
progressoverpeace on May 6, 2009 at 7:52 PM
Oh yeah. The saviors of the GOP. Guffaw!
ronsfi on May 6, 2009 at 7:52 PM
The Pope accepts evolution with a God.
And it’s not a new papal position. Pope Pius XII said he could like with evolution as long as the “ensouling” was left to God. Pope John Paul II was also very open to evolution, citing modern evidence.
amerpundit on May 6, 2009 at 7:53 PM
This is the new attack; every single Republican will be asked by the liberal media about science, as they want to paint the GOP as anti-science. Watch for it.
yogi41 on May 6, 2009 at 7:53 PM
Wouldn’t that make you the missing link, Chrissy?
viking01 on May 6, 2009 at 7:53 PM
No offense to Catholics, but I will take the Word of God over any man, Pope, Bishop, Baptist preacher, etc…
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 7:55 PM
I don’t care if it was Darwin or God who snuffed the dinosaurs. I’m just glad someone did.
Limerick on May 6, 2009 at 7:55 PM
Is it okay to believe in both evolution and creationism anymore?
Ugly on May 6, 2009 at 7:55 PM
Agree, and it begs the question. Is he continuing with this line of questioning on direction from the WH or is trying to impress the WH with his ability to distract and destroy. You know he is salivating for Gibb’s job. His days at MSNBC have to be numbered due to the ratings.
sherry on May 6, 2009 at 7:56 PM
Archaeopteryx is great, especially along with the hundreds of slight differences in the transitional forms leading up to it. Wait…we haven’t found those fossils yet? No worries, I’m sure we’ll find
all…..some….. one or two of them soon.jjjen on May 6, 2009 at 7:56 PM
Ugly,
Kidding, right?
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 7:56 PM
It’s a separate species all on it’s own. There are no transitional fossils in between Archeopteryx and dinos. It’s the same with the duck billed platypus. These creatures merely share similar traits as other species. It doesn’t necessarily mean they are related.
Guardian on May 6, 2009 at 7:57 PM
Conference call.
Message to all libs, ask every Rightie if the believe in evolution.
Message to all Righties, ask every lib if they believe in the liberty to choose your own beliefs without threat of bias from others.
Speakup on May 6, 2009 at 7:57 PM
The proper response to these Crissy questions is “What the hell does that have to do with multi-trillion dollar deficits, murdering human children, and cowardice in the face of the enemy?”
Limerick on May 6, 2009 at 7:58 PM
And for those who think there is no science in creation, highly encourage visiting http://www.answersingenesis.org/
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 7:58 PM
…and God continues to confound.
Matticus Finch on May 6, 2009 at 7:58 PM
Evolution? Really? Chris Matthews can’t find anything else to talk about? No wonder MSNBC’s ratings keep sinking.
SoulGlo on May 6, 2009 at 7:59 PM
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 7:56 PM
Not at all, but thank you for asking.
Ugly on May 6, 2009 at 7:59 PM
Sorry, but I don’t care what the topic is…no matter how controversial or divisive…we can all agree that Matthews is a mega-tool.
AUINSC on May 6, 2009 at 7:59 PM
So would those who want Creationism taught in public schools, does that mean all varieties of creationism or just Christian ones?
I imagine there would be quite an outcry from the same ones who want ID taught, if Hindus got to have their version taught, and some other religions get to have theirs introduced
Be careful what you wish for. Once you get to have your religion in the science class, the others have just as much right also.
firepilot on May 6, 2009 at 8:00 PM
The real question is, why does this smack of persecution? Clearly this is a new thing Matthews is using on any conservative. Are we now not allowed to run for office at all if we hold these views? Does everyone SEE where this country/world is now? How much we’ve changed…
Mommypundit on May 6, 2009 at 8:00 PM
I think it’s just Chrissy. If it had come from the WH then we’d hear all of the lib “journalists” asking the same question. Chrissy just thinks that he’s hit on a good line of questioning. I’ll bet he doesn’t bring Ann Coulter on to talk about it. She’d tear him a new one.
Chrissy spits too much for Press Secretary. They might let him clean the bathrooms, though, which Chrissy would still appreciate, as it’s a step up from MSNBC.
His numbers have always been awful. I don’t know why he’s been kept on this long. Perhaps no one wants to fire him because they’ll get a face full of spit as Chrissy sobs and cries and lashes out about the unfairness of evolution?
progressoverpeace on May 6, 2009 at 8:00 PM
Yes it’s burning, and this is why Obama is fiddling, while the MSM is in meltdown.
Look, a puppy!
Look, a moonlit stroll!
Look, they eat hamburgers!
Loxodonta on May 6, 2009 at 8:00 PM
Well, people used to ride them. Or milk them. Or something.
radiofreevillage on May 6, 2009 at 8:01 PM
No, it’s just a lot of conservatives don’t appreciate the public schools preaching to their children in the class room that there is no God. If you are telling children that all that is came from nothing and nothing caused it, then what does that say about their beliefs?
The issue of evolution is a non issue with me.
RobertInLexington on May 6, 2009 at 8:01 PM
Ugly,
Well, just checking. In all sincerity, no, they two are no where near compatible. Not even close on a cosmic scale.
AUINSC, yes, agreed.
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 8:01 PM
The answer is simple, sure I believe in evolution. It’s a fact that plants and animals evolve, including mankind.
But there is this one little tiny mystery that seems to not have an answer, and that is where does man get conscious thought. And then there are other questions, like where did the universe come from, we know it evolved, but how did it start?
So it depends on what you mean by evolution, doesn’t it. Nature’s God works in mysterious ways, and mankind will never understand them.
tarpon on May 6, 2009 at 8:02 PM
And that appears to be the position of current and past popes.
amerpundit on May 6, 2009 at 8:03 PM
firepilot,
What most of us who believe in creation want is the opportunity to show that evolution has major problems and there is another scientifically sound alternative. School should be about looking at multiple angles of viewpoints and determining which are true. If evolution is so sound, why are Darwinists so afraid?
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 8:03 PM
Matthews apes for Obama on evolution.
News at 10.
viking01 on May 6, 2009 at 8:03 PM
I believe in Halo 3
blatantblue on May 6, 2009 at 8:03 PM
Chris Matthews-let’s play ‘hardball’, do you or don’t you believe in the concept of journalism to find out facts? or is that thrill running up your leg preventing you from doing your job?
sDs61678 on May 6, 2009 at 8:03 PM
Doesn’t this end as soon as someone asks Matthews if he believes that Obama is descended from monkeys?
rw on May 6, 2009 at 8:04 PM
Archaeopteryx IS A JOKE.
Humans, reptiles and birds, descended from Guiyu fish. God created the fishes in the seas, silly.
ericdijon on May 6, 2009 at 8:04 PM
ROFLMAO! Great one.
progressoverpeace on May 6, 2009 at 8:04 PM
Indeed it does. Indeed it does.
amerpundit on May 6, 2009 at 8:05 PM
rw, thanks, now that was funny…
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 8:05 PM
….
chips, pretzels, and beer everywhere. You owe me pal….owe me big time…..
Limerick on May 6, 2009 at 8:05 PM
Any organism will be a member of a species, by definition. The issue is which species were the ancestors and descendants of the species that is thought to be ‘transitional’. Shared traits are a primary criterion for establishing relationships.
ProfessorMiao on May 6, 2009 at 8:05 PM
My question is WTF are Tanc and Pence doing granting interviews to MSNBC????
It makes sense for liberals (or anyone) to grant interviews to Fox, as they actually have an audience. On Fox you have a shot at swaying somebody out there because the audience is big and wide…By appearing on MSNBC you are reaching no one but the 50,000 rabid, drooling, leg-tingling farkheads. Why the f%ck would you bother?????
Tim Zank on May 6, 2009 at 8:07 PM
Of what?
radiofreevillage on May 6, 2009 at 8:07 PM
Thanks for the Papal take because it needs to be understood by more people.
Religions have their own beliefs that I can’t speak for- as a Catholic I believe that 2 things can be mutually exclusive and still true.
Politically, this is just the type of divide and conquer tactics that the left and willing toadies like Matthews are too happy to do. The GOP needs to understand that certain outlets (MSNBC) are essentially there to destroy their viability.
jjshaka on May 6, 2009 at 8:08 PM
Allahpundit, or other resident atheists: Do you believe in determinism? And if so, does it make sense to say someone like the would-be rapist in the other thread deserved to die? If his mind is nothing but a collection of elementary particles behaving according to physical laws, then he could not have acted otherwise, could he?
mikeyboss on May 6, 2009 at 8:08 PM
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 8:01 PM
I believe God created the Heavens & Earth and all the beasts and humans, etc.
I don’t believe, I know… that things evolve.
It’s not a huge leap (for me anyway) to see perfect compatibility in the two. Not in the traditional sense, of course.
I’ve been wrong before, so please don’t take this as an argument… just my opinion/belief :)
Ugly on May 6, 2009 at 8:08 PM
radiofree, creation…God…truth…responsibility…
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 8:08 PM
Exactly. My sympathy meter along with my “give a sh!t” meter are both begged at 0.
TheBigOldDog on May 6, 2009 at 8:09 PM
Ugly,
if you mean things evolve as in adapt…natural selection…dont necessarily disagree…fully compatible with creation. However, if by evolution you mean molecules eventually become man, now that is incompatible with the Bible, no way to get around that…either ALL of the Bible is true or none…
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 8:10 PM
Guys, this line of questioning is going to keep on happening until the GOP finally wises up, or goes extinct… ;p
starfleet_dude on May 6, 2009 at 8:10 PM
ALLAHPUNDIT AND CHARLES JOHNSON AND CHRISSIE MATTHEWS WON’T STOP UNTIL WE’RE ALL ATHEISTS.
Terrific.
Allahpundit on May 6, 2009 at 7:47 PM
You haven’t heard of the “Star Children” Theory?
That’s what Chris Matthews has Stars in his Eyes/sarc.
Dr Evil on May 6, 2009 at 8:10 PM
Thats a bit of a Strawman, because a belief in Evolution is not Atheism. Darwin was not an atheist, and a lot of scientists I have worked with arent either. You cant quite biological evolution with atheism.
Because you cant say that problems in evolution, equate to evidence for creationism. Just because we do not know everything, does not lend itself to being evidence for a different view.
Evidence for Creationism is exactly that, Evidence. Not problems you have for something else. If you think a few problems in Evolution should keep it from being taught, well what about the utter lack of evidence for Creationism, other than a religion text. We can say there are far more problems with Creationism from a scientific viewpoint.
And enough groups are using ID as a trojan horse to get their own religion into Biology and Geology class.
firepilot on May 6, 2009 at 8:13 PM
Star Children
So Allah how many fingers -digits do you have on each hand?
Dr Evil on May 6, 2009 at 8:13 PM
Every Liberal secretly knows that aliens from outer space built the pyramids….. for the children.
viking01 on May 6, 2009 at 8:13 PM
I believe the universe is wholly a natural and material phenomena and is thus deterministic, but I believe there is also what’s called “free will” that human beings and some other animals have to varying degrees. IOW, we have the ability to consider decisions. Think of it as a kind of pseudo-random number/free will generator that while not absolutely free is free enough to be worth having.
starfleet_dude on May 6, 2009 at 8:14 PM
I recommend you read Strawson. There is a difference between being morally responsible for something and being open to punishment for something. Questioning the role of determinism in society may sound smart, but it really leads you nowhere if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Nonfactor on May 6, 2009 at 8:16 PM
Hahahahahahahahaha! That’s your proof of transitional species? Wow, talk about gullible… Hahahahaha!
CaliConstitutionalist on May 6, 2009 at 8:16 PM
Chris is kind of a one trick pony isn’t he?
Terrye on May 6, 2009 at 8:17 PM
Actually it’s because he *knows* most Rs, esp. those of the more religious persuasion, will sound dumb on the subject. In fact they *must* sound dumb to appeal to the anti-E folks that infest the conservative base.
But otherwise I agree with you, Matthews probably doesn’t have anything other than fairy tale knowledge of biological evolution.
edshepp on May 6, 2009 at 8:17 PM
firepilot, I would again point you to http://www.answersingenesis.org/
You say there is an utter lack of evidence then that tells me you have not bothered to study it. I have studied both and came to the inescapable conclusion that evolution has too many holes in the evidence to support the notion.
DNA? Really…where did that come from? Information just went “poof”? Why arent teachers allowed to explain the problems with evolution? Fear.
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 8:17 PM
Better yet …
When is Matthews going to ask Obama if HE believes in evolution? Or how about Nancy Pelosi?
Is there some point he’s trying to make? If so, he’s failing unless his point is that he’s a complete jackass.
And why did Matthews fail to evolve?
Gregor on May 6, 2009 at 8:17 PM
Why can’t it be evolution set up by God to run the way it is?
Defector01 on May 6, 2009 at 8:17 PM
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 8:10 PM
The Platypus might have something to say about that. Just kidding ;)
As I said, I do believe God created all. And continues to create… one might say God’s creations continually evolve.
And yes, man creates his own destiny… one of Gods greatest gifts to man… but I’m no expert on the Bible/God/evolution/creationism. I justy know what I thing/believe.
Ugly on May 6, 2009 at 8:17 PM
I refuse to be drawn into these silly arguments. I think that God the creator could have created the laws of nature and that evolution could be part of that. I honestly do not pretend to know the nature or origin of man or the universe. I leave that to the all knowing Chris Matthews.
Terrye on May 6, 2009 at 8:19 PM
Every Liberal secretly knows that aliens from outer space built the pyramids….. for the children.
viking01 on May 6, 2009 at 8:13 PM
Yep, they are just waiting for the mother ship to come and scoop them up :)
Dr Evil on May 6, 2009 at 8:19 PM
I would also challenge evolutionists to answer where the notion of right and wrong come from. Don’t tell me that society determines those norms because every society comes up with different rights and wrongs.
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 8:19 PM
I thought Al Gore created the Earth and the Heavens.
Gregor on May 6, 2009 at 8:21 PM
…what? Is Matthews channelling Joe McCarthy? “Do you now or have you ever believed in evolution?”
…ugly seagull….
…if anybody has the definitive word on how the Creation went off, how the Creator pulled the rabbit (or the Archeopteryx) out of his hat, let the world know.
If you’re a biblican literalist, good for you. Personally, I think that debating the Creation is futile. The real truth of Scripture is the life and finished work of Christ. The Huxleys and Matthews’ and the modern non-believers like to argue this one facet of Scripture in hopes of finding another “Soapy Sam” Wilberforce…who didn’t lose the argument with Huxley, standing in for Darwin…he lost on style by dissing Huxley.
Let the Holy Spirit argue with the non-believers about creation. They’ll all know soon enough.
Scripture is truth. Truth can’t be discredited. It can be buried in and soiled by so much bad defense, emotional babble and posturing that it can be made to look discredited.
Puritan1648 on May 6, 2009 at 8:21 PM
Rush addressed how to turn this around today on the show, saying:
CP on May 6, 2009 at 8:21 PM
Ugly,
Fair enough. Although I would encourage you to be able to explain why and what you believe. 1 Peter 3:15
Centurion68 on May 6, 2009 at 8:21 PM
Clearly Chris Matthews doesn’t feel the same way or else he wouldn’t be inviting people onto his show and then asking them about it. I’d rather hear Tancredo on immigration restriction.
aengus on May 6, 2009 at 8:23 PM
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