Hate crimes law violates Constitution in two ways
posted at 11:36 am on May 1, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
The House passed sweeping new hate-crimes legislation this week, helped in no small part by a Republican rhetorical fumble during the debate, although the outcome was hardly in doubt. Sponsors named the bill after Matthew Shephard, who was beaten and left to die tied to a fence. Virginia Foxx (R-NC) called the bill a “hoax”, and mischaracterized the crime:
This is absurd on two levels. First, the defendants in the case tried using for a “gay panic defense,” arguing that Shephard had initiated sexual advances and that they went insane when their masculinity was challenged. The walkback from that led the defendants to claim that the beating was a result of a robbery gone awry and that they had no intention of causing that level of harm. The jury didn’t buy either excuse, and both defendants have back-to-back life sentences (one defendant eventually pled guilty and testified against the other).
The second absurdity is that even if one accepted that this particular case involved no animus against gays, undeniably people commit crimes based on that animus as well as a range of others. The animus exists, and can be seen in a variety of criminal and non-criminal acts. The question, which Foxx eclipsed with this sorry performance, is whether we want to start criminalizing thoughts as well as actions.
Until recently, motives only mattered in proving the mens rea of a crime, ie, the desire to commit the crime. Motive matters in murder, for instance; a drunk driver can kill a pedestrian and a person can kill a spouse to collect on the insurance. Both happen with depressing regularity. The difference is that the latter had an explicit desire to kill (for profit) while the other had a depraved indifference to life but no explicit desire to kill, and that’s why they get charged with different crimes.
However, we don’t differentiate between murder for profit and murder for a particular animus of hate. Doing that creates a subtle but significant change in which the state has suddenly become the arbiter of thought, determining different outcomes based on thought despite the similarity of crime. The First Amendment arguments are obvious, but Jazz Shaw thinks this also violates the Fourteenth as well:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Long story short: When you pass laws which assign greater guilt to certain parties for committing the same crimes, based on nothing more than what they were thinking at the time and the “class” of citizens who were the victims, then you are providing unequal protection of the laws. You are assigning a higher value to the lives, liberty and property of some victims than others based on their sexual orientation, their race, skin color, religion, etc.
That’s exactly right — and, in fact, that’s the explicit desire of lawmakers. They want to alleviate what they see as a greater degree of victimhood with a greater degree of government correction. Those motives may be understandable, but they’re entirely incompatible with equality before the law. Creating classes of victims means creating classes of citizenry. Either we’re all the same, or we’re just competing for the most politically-correct biases. That’s more likely to perpetuate resentment than it is to reduce hatred.
The key to fighting crime is to prosecute aggressively and apply long sentences, especially to violent and repeat offenders, no matter who they are or whom they victimized.
Jazz and I discussed this on his show yesterday. I come in at the half-way mark:









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Well, we can make an exception for Rino if that’s what he wants.
Esthier on May 1, 2009 at 3:29 PM
Except this doesn’t apply to anyone who isn’t a minority. White males need not apply, so to speak.
Esthier on May 1, 2009 at 3:30 PM
?!?!?!?!?!
I agree with you that the the 1st has no argument concerning this.I am thinking that Ed in no way intended what you just said here.
But:
Sentencing is what gives us leeway to punish a crime more intensely than another. Legislation should not be used.
Badger40 on May 1, 2009 at 3:31 PM
I call bullsh!t! The protected class could claim they killed the hetero because they feared for their life. The protected class would receive a suspended sentence.
There’s no justice in hate crime legislation and you can’t defend against the accusation of a thought crime.
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 3:32 PM
This is what is wrong with our party. A hoax?????
I f****** quit, man. These lawmakers are indefensible.
Dr. Manhattan on May 1, 2009 at 3:32 PM
That’s a problem in the execution of the law, not in the law itself. I agree, if the law ends up prosecuting people for stuff like that, then we have a problem.
But the law is intended to punish people for using violent crimes to intimidate other people of that same group. I agree that proving intent will be very difficult and it’s probably something that should be used sparingly.
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 3:33 PM
If that’s the case, then the law is illegal – but I don’t think it is.
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 3:33 PM
The courts have had a lot of fun with these silly laws that [Democrat] Congress makes. I’m certain they would get a great laugh out of this POS.
DannoJyd on May 1, 2009 at 3:34 PM
I do hope you read this eventually. I have no knowledge of religious beliefs, but thanks for your fellowship here. And, as a fellow member of the Hot Air Center for the Performing Arts, I offer you, and all, some peace and optimism:
I’m no reformer; for I see more light
Than darkness in the world; mine eyes are quick
To catch the first dim radiance of the dawn,
And slow to note the cloud that threatens storm.
The fragrance and the beauty of the rose
Delight me so, slight thought I give its thorn;
And the sweet music of the lark’s clear song
Stays longer with me than the night hawk’s cry.
And e’en in this great throe of pain called Life,
I find a rapture linked with each despair,
Well worth the price of Anguish. I detect
More good than evil in humanity.
Love lights more fires than hate extinguishes,
And men grow better as the world grows old.
– Ella Wheeler Wilcox
Loxodonta on May 1, 2009 at 3:35 PM
OK, again, that’s a problem in the execution, not the law itself. If that were the case then I’d be just as outraged as you.
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 3:36 PM
We already recognize that murder is a “particularly heinous crime” (unless it was an accident). What punishment it there that is more severe than either life without parole or the death penalty?
Wait! Maybe we should torture perpetrators of “Hate Crimes” to make up the difference.
Buy Danish on May 1, 2009 at 3:38 PM
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 3:33 PM
Using legislation to level a perceived unlevel playing field is not equal justice under the law. And Esthier is right – white males could be slaughtered by a protected group who hates them with impunity. Read the Bill – it is aimed only at protecting gay people. No one else. Just as other hate crime legislation is only aimed at protecting black people. There is no “hate crime” legislation aimed at protecting white people from those that hate them.
That is why I hate all hate crime legislation. The law is the law and should be applied equally to all or it is useless.
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 3:39 PM
A tenet of liberal orthodoxy is that minority groups cannot be racist. Power is required to enact racism, minority groups lack this power, hence they cannot be racists.
The same applies to a number of things in that same vein of prejudice. I was taught this in Sociology 120 at a major state university. It’s a commonplace perspective in academia.
TheUnrepentantGeek on May 1, 2009 at 3:40 PM
Your argument is specious. Since when is the execution of a law ever perfect considering the imperfect (humans) are the ones in a position to interpret it.
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 3:41 PM
Then I’d suggest you study it a bit more.
Esthier on May 1, 2009 at 3:41 PM
You don’t seem to get it … there is no defense aginst thought crime.
Any past actions will be used as rationale to establish what your thoughts were.
This isn’t to establish justice … it will be used to silence opposition to the left. Besides silencing opposition to the gay agenda, it’ll be used to silence any and all opposition to illegal immigration.
It will be used to silence religious groups.
It’s a tool of coercion, not justice.
darwin on May 1, 2009 at 3:42 PM
Yup. Thought police.
ExTex on May 1, 2009 at 3:42 PM
This law does not treat groups equally or hatred equally. Instead, it imposes harsher sentences on those perpetrating crimes against certain protected groups. This has nothing to do with enforcement; it’s the law itself. This hate crimes law is an abomination of the right to equal protection under the law.
Loxodonta on May 1, 2009 at 3:42 PM
I had a black boss who said that class changed his life. He was a millionaire and owned his own business. I was his employee and I pointed out to him that he was the one in a position of power over me, a white person.
He sooooo did not “get” it, until the day he fired me and I pointed it out to him.
heh……..
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 3:43 PM
No, YOU read the bill, it only broadens already existing hate crime statutes which protect race, religion, national origin, and gender. It doesn’t say “This is just for gay people,” and the older statutes don’t say “this is just for black people,” because that’s blatantly unconstitutional.
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 3:44 PM
Seems to me like another misplaced set of priorities. We spend more money on Aids research than cancer research even so cancer kills more people, we spend more time creating laws to protect certain minorities then addressing more deadly issues such as gang violence. It seems we go wherever there is more smoke and not more fire.
In an equitable society we would address those issues first that affect the most people and not those that are sponsored but those who make the most noise. Ergo: we do not have an equitable society and are heading for the tyranny of the minority.
dpierson on May 1, 2009 at 3:45 PM
Yes. This law is blatantly unconstitutional. I’m glad you agree.
Esthier on May 1, 2009 at 3:49 PM
Well, don’t worry, if you ever get charged with one, believe me your lawyer will have quite a few depending on the circumstances of your case. There are TONS of defenses.
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 3:50 PM
Yes – I have heard that pastors in Europe and Canada have been jailed simply for reading from the Bible. This law would put American pastors in the same position of fear of prosecution. Suppose there is a gay-activist plant in the congregation?
Also, you know this law would only be aimed at silencing Christian preachers. Practitioners of islam who preach the same thing would never be brought up on charges.
Again, unequality under this Un-Constitutional law.
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 3:51 PM
The Constitution and Amendments already do that. There is no need for any of this. This is legislation designed to silence opposition to leftist groups.
darwin on May 1, 2009 at 3:51 PM
And that makes it somehow better? What if I wanted to commit a “hate crime” to discourage people from wearing the color blue? Am I covered? No, of course not, because laws have always focused not on equality, but on improving the lot of so called “protected groups.”
Where does it end? It’s not meant to encourage justice, but to silence debate on issues designated “hateful” by those writing the laws.
TheUnrepentantGeek on May 1, 2009 at 3:51 PM
Right, and the law doesn’t say that, so we do agree. Spectacular!
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 3:51 PM
So I’ll be driven to bankruptcy defending my thoughts?
darwin on May 1, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Like what? How do you prove you aren’t racist?
And how can you even support making a citizen prove such a thing when it’s not illegal to be so?
Esthier on May 1, 2009 at 3:53 PM
Even though there’s nothing illegal about being a racist.
Esthier on May 1, 2009 at 3:55 PM
France?
Badger40 on May 1, 2009 at 3:56 PM
This is idiotic reasoning: Don’t worry about a bad law because when you get charged a lawyer will help you beat it. There is a reason the status over most court-houses is blindfolded: We are all supposed to equal under the law.
http://www.statue.com/lady-justice-statues.html
dpierson on May 1, 2009 at 3:56 PM
Rino needs to read up on what happened to Ezra Levant and others under Canada’s “hate crime/thought” laws … might change his mind.
darwin on May 1, 2009 at 3:57 PM
OK, you beat up a gay person. You did it because you want to “send a message” to homosexuals.
You’ve committed an assault against the person you attacked, but you’ve also committed a crime (arguably) against any homosexual in your immediate area – they’re not going to feel free to be known as homosexuals in public, they’re not going to be able to hold hands with their “roommate,” etc. And if the offender just gets a regular sentence, then the implicit message is that the “sending a message” part of the act is legal, and it shouldn’t be. That’s a crime too.
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Latin Proverb: Beware the tyranny of the minority.
http://quotationsbook.com/quote/26560/
dpierson on May 1, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Whatever – I have read it. Why don’t you just say you are in support of throwing out the Constitution and want cafe standard laws that protect some of the people but not all of the people.
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Sadly, it has already come true.
Badger40 on May 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM
Actually, it’s not, and that’s the point. If I wanted to parade around town claiming I hated gays and wanted to send a message to them that I would make sure they were unwelcome here, I have that legal right.
So you’re wrong on that anyway.
The only illegal thing is the violence, and that’s already being dealt with through other laws.
Esthier on May 1, 2009 at 4:01 PM
OK, just to humor you. Gays beat up a religious person handing out bibles in the Castro in SF. This intimidates other religious people from doing the same – hate crime?
dpierson on May 1, 2009 at 4:01 PM
Then there are assault laws already on the books to prosecute that crime.
You really should just admit you want to ignore existing laws. That it is ok to kill white people and minorities are special and need to have “special” laws just for them.
The insanity of it all!
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 4:01 PM
lol.
bluelightbrigade on May 1, 2009 at 4:02 PM
OK, just to humor you. Gays beat up a religious person handing out bibles in the Castro in SF. This intimidates other religious people from doing the same – hate crime?
dpierson on May 1, 2009 at 4:01 PM
Oh, no, no no! The religious person will be arrested and charged with a hate crime and inciting a riot.
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 4:04 PM
And as part of that evil white Christian demographic that the government just loves to give the finger to whenever possible, believe me, I do resent.
No special protection for me.
Hawkins1701 on May 1, 2009 at 4:04 PM
Ms. Foxx didn’t call the bill a “hoax.” She called titling the bill after Matthew Shepard who the victim of a hate crime which was really just a plain old robbery a hoax. Not the bill, the title of the bill. Listen closely to what she said.
Guess you have to be from NC to understand us sometimes.
ProudinNC on May 1, 2009 at 4:05 PM
OK, let’s say you kill a person – you ran him over. He’s black. You get charged with a hate crime. Your defenses:
1. I didn’t know he was black – it was dark outside.
2. I was drunk
3. He was jaywalking
4. He ran out in the middle of the road
5. My brakes didn’t work.
6. I was distracted.
7. I hit him
etc.
The same defenses you have for any crime where it says you did something intentionally. You don’t have to prove your thoughts anyway, the burden of proof is on the government to prove intent anyway, not you.
Yes, I admit, if you were a KKK group leader and you happen to run down and kill the one black guy in town, you”re going to have a problem convincing people you ran him down because you thought he was messing around with your spouse – and if that’s your honest reason, and you can prove that you honestly believed that, then you shouldn’t be convicted.
I agree that the burden of proof would probably be shifted in that case, and I do have a problem with that.
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM
I know – that’s why I chose the example – to show how unequal we are under the law. This is basically a thinly disguised gay protection law – nothing else.
dpierson on May 1, 2009 at 4:07 PM
Do you all remember this? Would that a hate crime under this legislation? What greater sentence would those minorities get from simply going after someone because of their skin color. To be sure this case would be far easier to determine what the “thought” process was than most other potential “hate” crimes that would be covered by this law.
Do you remember how it ended and what happened to those involved? This stuff is simply getting ridiculous. We should all be so far past this.
Sultry Beauty on May 1, 2009 at 4:07 PM
Depends on the message. If the message is, “I don’t like you,” then fine. If the message is, “I’m going to beat you up if I see you outside during daylight,” that is a crime. Threats are illegal.
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 4:08 PM
Read the rest of the link you cited.
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 4:09 PM
Ok, so someone in the neighborhood gets mugged and robbed. Now everyone in the neighborhood feels scared, threatened and afraid to go out in public.
Should the prep be charged with a hate crime for making others feel scared?
darwin on May 1, 2009 at 4:12 PM
Why did you add to her statement just to justify your position? Check Sultry’s link – there were no arrests in that case and it was clearly done because of the victims skin color. I bet you also never heard about this.
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 4:15 PM
I did – that is why I posted it. It is an accurate assessment of what occured. Your point?
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 4:16 PM
But seemingly normally ignored by authorities as they are difficult to prove intent.
The only ‘threats’ that ever get ‘punished’ or taken seriously are ones made by minority groups bcs of socially enforced PC rules.
This is unfair. Unequal.
This is pitting one group against another.
There is no centrist view that will work on this stuff.
Any violent crime against another should by definition be considered hateful.
Gays, minorities, etc have no right to expect better treatment under the law in regards to a violent crime.
That even includes a child, IMHO, though truthfully, I’d love to see those who harm children get the max penalties under the law.
But I don’t want to see ‘special’ laws enacted to punish others for crimes that already have punishments.
That is the most unbelievably stupid thing ever,IMHO.
ENFORCEMENT is the key.
Badger40 on May 1, 2009 at 4:17 PM
I think Rino is just a poiler. Probably on the payroll to play devils advocate to keep threads running. No excuse for that kind of thinking. The kind of thinking where one person is more valuable than another.
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 4:18 PM
For those seeking the text of the bill passed by the House, here it is: HR 1913 EH
Loxodonta on May 1, 2009 at 4:21 PM
It comes down to a very basic belief: Either you believe that some groups deserve more protection under the law or you believe that we are all equal under the law.
If you are of the first persuasion then the only argument is what groups to include. At that point you also have to face the inevitable complaints from those groups that are not included because they feel unfairly treated. Eventually, enough groups will politic, connive, threaten to be one of the included groups that you might as well include everyone and then you are back to square one.
That’s why we are supposed to all be equal under the law because that’s the only way to make everyone feel fairly treated. If you don’t think it can happen, just wait until eventually the Republicans are back in power and amend the law with groups that you don’t agree with.
The moral of the story: don’t discriminate against anyone and treat everyone equally.
dpierson on May 1, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Human nature being what it is, that’ll never happen. Whichis why Lady Justice has that blindfold. The statists have taken the blindfold off and only think certain people have merit. Whitey need not apply…..
vapig on May 1, 2009 at 4:29 PM
Agreed, it does. And even more so, it also comes down to punishing certain people for the same act more severely because to their actual or purported hateful beliefs.
This point might be a bit too broad. I discriminated against men when I was was seeking romance. And if young again, would do the same. I hope that’s okay!
Loxodonta on May 1, 2009 at 4:32 PM
That’s racist.
None of these prove I didn’t mean to kill a black guy.
How is this a defense?
And if it’s just a case of accidentally running him down, or running him down because he called my mother a fat whore, how am I supposed to defend myself then?
Then why even support this law? If I meant to kill him, I’ll be punished badly. The reason I meant to kill him shouldn’t matter.
What about this? Let’s say I was raped by a black man and now see rapists every time I see a black man because I don’t remember the rapist’s face.
So I run a man over, because he’s black, but not because I want to send any message but just because I’m f-ed mentally over the whole rape thing. I can’t prove the rape, because like most women I didn’t report it. So then what?
And I didn’t just make this up. Something very similar happened to a friend of mine, only without the homicide.
Yes, threatening someone is illegal. Wishing someone harm though, is not. That’s why the Phelps clan can tell funeral goers that God hates gay people and wants them to die as much as they want to. Though that is one clan I wouldn’t mind seeing behind bars.
Esthier on May 1, 2009 at 4:35 PM
That’s a typical liberal mindset: Either you are for free speech or you are not. Just because you personally disapprove makes no difference in the eyes of the law, or at least is not supposed to.
Right now the government is deciding who they don’t like and branding them RWE, when the other side is in power they play the same games for LWE. That’s why the constitution is supposed to be the guide for this little experiment we call democracy – to remove extreme ups and downs when power changes in Washington.
dpierson on May 1, 2009 at 4:47 PM
I guess the law doesn’t apply if some “identifiable minority” punk mugs me ‘cuz I look like a moderately affluent, straight, middle-aged honkey that just might have a few bucks cash in my wallet. Why isn’t the ACLU lookin’ out for me?
StimulateTHIS on May 1, 2009 at 4:49 PM
It might occasionally result in an unjust conviction, yes. If you can name any law that doesn’t…well…yeah. I think the risk of the occasional unjust prejudice is worth the reward of occasionally putting a criminal away for a few more years for committing a crime for the purposes of intimidation.
Well, obviously rape trauma syndrome (if that’s actually whats going on there) is one thing and that’s a defense, but it’s going to depend on whether a jury could reasonably come to the conclusion that you had been raped.
I mean, otherwise anyone could just say, “Oh I’ve been raped but didn’t report it,” you know? That same concern applies regardless of whether or not you like hate crime legislation.
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 4:50 PM
Prove the offender wanted to “send a message.”
Otis B on May 1, 2009 at 4:53 PM
And you drone on and on with silly straw man reasoning using scenarios you made up yourself. The law is discriminatory and violates the “equal under the law” principle.
dpierson on May 1, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Very well written Ed, good analogies…Leftist idiots still won’t get it and won’t want to get the point, hate laws are UNCONSTITUTIONAL but then again, leftist idiots hate the Constitution because if forced to follow the strict rule of the U.S. Constitution, leftists lose the power they so blatantly crave.
nelsonknows on May 1, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Gee, most people feel the opposite about the law, that they’d rather a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent be punished.
Which is exactly my point. It can’t be proven, especially if she didn’t report it.
Of course, but then with hate crimes, you’re presuming to know someone’s mind, far more than proving what their actions show.
That’s why we’re against it. Your thoughts are yours and yours alone. I don’t even understand why you disagree.
Severe violence is punished severely. It shouldn’t be worse just because a message was meant. How many times is that the case? Gangs and mobsters murder people frequently specifically to send a message. Why should a random skin head be treated differently when they pose less of a public threat?
Esthier on May 1, 2009 at 5:05 PM
Proud Rino, does the term “aggravating circumstances” mean anything to you.
mossberg500 on May 1, 2009 at 5:09 PM
THIS IS FUNNY…. Consider me part of hate crimes, I guess.
I heard this today…. Years ago they said there would be a black man as President when pigs fly. Well… we have Obama and what happens? Swine Flu (flew). It’s a sign.
suzyk on May 1, 2009 at 5:16 PM
looks like it’s time to have HA allow moniker changes, Proud RINO might need to follow Arlen out the door.
kirkill on May 1, 2009 at 5:18 PM
Thanks for making several good points showing the dangers of this proposed law.
Loxodonta on May 1, 2009 at 5:23 PM
Anytime. Though, to be honest, I’d be against this even if I felt there were no dangers. The very idea of punishing thought bothers me to no end.
Esthier on May 1, 2009 at 5:27 PM
These leftist idiots don’t realize that after all these laws have subdued the majority with hate thought/crime laws about minorities … the next law will be preventing “hate speech” against the government itself.
No one … including the minority groups used to initially stifle freedom will be safe.
Be very, very careful what you ask for.
darwin on May 1, 2009 at 5:27 PM
This law will be good for psychics who can read people’s minds to ascertain the hidden — and hateful — intent of their actions against “protected groups” and yes, Virginia, there are protected groups.
Dhuka on May 1, 2009 at 5:36 PM
There’s a wide range of latitude in a “regular sentence.”
If there was evidence at trial that the criminal defendant committed the charged crime out of a desire to intimidate others (as opposed to say, killing a black victim because the defendant found him in bed with his wife), then the judge can take that evidence into account when determining the severity of the sentence. Also, many sentencing guidelines add extra time for factors such as “victim was especially vulnerable.”
AZCoyote on May 1, 2009 at 6:08 PM
NAAAAWW! REALLY?Will wonders never cease?
Cybergeezer on May 1, 2009 at 6:55 PM
But getting angry is a community offense!
Cybergeezer on May 1, 2009 at 6:56 PM
the problem we have now days is goverment educated people who do not even know what the constitution is and the people in washington who have no respect for it .and we will never change that, the american people are lazy not all of us but enough to kill this country maybe when china or russia take over then maybe then you will get up but it will be to late so america go eat your comfort food sleep on your soft bed demand the goverment provide you with every thing you need.kill the golden goose .thank god there are some of us out here who know what you are doing.AMERICA IS IT TO LATE?
wade underhile on May 1, 2009 at 7:47 PM
There are plenty of avowed antisemites who collect antisemitic literature, but have never broken any laws. If it’s not a crime to hate Jews, then someone who murders a Jew because they’re an antisemite shouldn’t get a stiffer sentence than someone who murdered the same Jew because they gave them the finger in a road rage incident.
In a free country, you have the freedom to think, say, write, and believe whatever you want, as long as you don’t break any laws. When you break the law you step over a line. What caused you to step over the line is irrelevant.
ardenenoch on May 1, 2009 at 7:58 PM
I’m continuously torn between whether these people are treasonous or just absurdly stupid.
Karmashock on May 1, 2009 at 9:47 PM
some pigs are more equal than others…
Orwell would understand our society all too well…
right4life on May 1, 2009 at 10:01 PM
So, no difference in punishment in manslaughter or first degree murder then, right?
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 10:13 PM
incorrect analogy. why should someone who is gay be worth more than someone who is not?
right4life on May 1, 2009 at 10:17 PM
Yeah – well that depends on the hundred and the one, right? But taking that seriously – 100:! is an acceptable ratio. I’m not so sure our justice system actually gets to 100:1, by the way. Do we open all the prisons? That line is a nice idea but absolutely absurd in practice. We have an imperfect justice system.
By the way, I think this is a really good point. My argument is that “the message” is a separate crime in itself which should be punished. I share your apprehensions and I think the crimes should be prosecuted rarely. I haven’t done much research on their efficacy or how often they’re prosecuted, but my suspicion is that they’re more symbolic than anything else.
But I will say that I think it’s a close call.
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 10:38 PM
these ‘hate crime’ laws are for one reason, to silence and persecute christianity…behind them is the gay movement, whose main goal is to criminalize christianity.
right4life on May 1, 2009 at 10:54 PM
What part of the following do you not understand or support?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
If you want to do research on the “efficacy” of hate crime legislation, I suggest you look at the EU’s drift into dhimmitude, and the impact on speech and all other aspects of life in totalitarian countries.
How can any criminalizing of “the message” be a close call?
Loxodonta on May 1, 2009 at 10:55 PM
Threaten to murder someone sometime and when they arrest you, be sure to show the police the First Amendment. They’re going to be pretty embarrassed!
Proud Rino on May 1, 2009 at 11:05 PM
Liberals are like wild children who have no moral compass, no core principles, and no values other than seeking pleasure and power by any means necessary. Many use violence and threats of violence. The elites prefer to do this by playing games with words, especially if they can get them codified into laws. If liberals succeed in promoting a culture that fosters their pleasure and power seeking obsessions, they will end up being destroyed by their own creation.
Thankfully, there will always be some adults standing who will clean up the mess liberals leave behind.
Loxodonta on May 1, 2009 at 11:38 PM
I’ve been warning people about this law for years. It’s going to be used to go after Christians, churches and pastors, just as it has been used in other countries.
TTheoLogan on May 1, 2009 at 11:51 PM
Hate crime legislation is unconstitutional (especially if it enters into the area of speech) based not only on the first amendment, but also on the courts VERY open reading of it in the most recent standard on acceptable speech. The case was Brandenburg v. Ohio, and the issue at question was whether a member of the KKK could insinuate that the government might be able to be taken out if it continued to oppress white people. Brandenburg was arrested under an Ohio statute allowing for the prosecution of those who discussed the demise of the government. The SCOTUS overturned his arrest and conviction on the grounds of imminent lawless action – which basically says not only is a person allowed to say whatever they like, you cannot arrest them unless they have both means and fairly recent actions indicating they intend to implement that plan. Thus, “hate speech” does not exist according to the Supreme Court.
Govgirl on May 1, 2009 at 11:57 PM
I wonder if islamic terrorists are exempt
Jamson64 on May 1, 2009 at 11:59 PM
I think affirmative action is unconstitutional and that hasn’t held back untold despicable social engineering by liberals and trillions spent in a myriad of programs public and hidden.
I don’t think our liberal overlords give a crap about our constitution when there’s votes in them thar trash bills.
Speakup on May 2, 2009 at 12:49 AM
Rep Fox’s statement is far from absurd. If the robbery defense is ridiculous, the “gay hysteria” defense was also ridiculous. The notion that there exists a significant animus against gays that amounts to anything other than distaste is absurd; there’s practically no instances on the public record of “gay hate” crimes committed, and some huge percentage of reports of “gay-bashing” turn out, on investigation, to be domestic disputes between gay partners. The guys who murdered Matthew Shephard may have said to each other, “Let’s go beat up queers,” but they were the kind of guys who could just as easily have said “Let’s go beat up Jesus Freaks,” or “Let’s go beat up old people,” or just “Let’s go kick some afs.” Violent people don’t need much of an excuse.
Most of the public animus against gays is actually a reaction to the sort of thuggery we saw against Mormons committed BY GAYS in the wake of the Prop 8 vote. I wrote about a woman from whom gay activists extorted some $10,000 in donations after they threatened to close down her restaurant with an angry boycott. The reason? She’d donated $100 to “Vote ‘Yes’ on Prop 8.” Gay activists DESERVE to be hated for this sort of thuggery; if it had been my restaurant, their vicious afses would have landed in jail on a RICO charge. I f’ing HATE bullies.
philwynk on May 2, 2009 at 10:35 AM
OMG, such a funny comment at the end!1 Well, either funny or idiotic. Take your pick.
Hate crimes don’t always rise to the level of murder. In case of a first-degree murder I’m perfectly fine with punishing a “simple” murder and a “hate crime” murder the same way.
However, let’s take vandalizing your neighbor’s door. If you write “poophead” on two random doors it then I think you should be at most responsible for replacing the doors with better ones and maybe some community work or… I don’t know. If you write something nasty solely on the doors of your black neighbors and it is established that it was done on purpose then I have no problem with a more severe (but still reasonable) punishment. Because the effect of your crime goes well beyond destroyed property.
radiofreevillage on May 2, 2009 at 11:18 AM
The first thing every totalitarian government does when it finally achieves it’s goals is to get rid of those who were their “useful tools”.
Why do they do that?
Their “useful tools” think that they will be rewarded for their services to the party and the Dictator/Furher/messiah and will become unruly when it becomes apparent that they have been lied to and the only reward they will get is to be kicked to the curb with the rest of the serfs.
So the party will nip that in the bud and throw their “useful tools” into the fire first.
I told the 0bamaorcs last year that they need to study up on Ernst Rohm, the SA and “The Night of the Long Knives” because that will be their fate.
Nahanni on May 2, 2009 at 12:23 PM
Let’s do away with all Federal hate crimes laws. Right now if you attack someone because of their religion you might be charged with a hate crime. The judges and juries should be able to into account intent if it can be determined, when they sentence someone.
SC.Charlie on May 2, 2009 at 1:08 PM
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