Gallup: 55% support harsh interrogations of terrorists
posted at 9:30 pm on April 28, 2009 by Allahpundit
Further evidence that, like the AIG bonus tax, the Democrats are going to make this subject go bye-bye very soon, and very quietly. The more people know about this subject, the more comfortable with it they seem to be: Whereas 55 percent overall approve of harsh interrogation, 61 percent who are following the story “very closely” do. Likewise, while 51 percent overall support a government investigation of interrogations, 58 percent who are following the story very closely oppose it — a finding that jibes with a new NYT/CBS poll out tonight. Think this will find its way onto Pelosi’s desk tomorrow?
According to the poll, sixty-two percent of Americans do not think Congress should hold hearings to investigate the administration’s treatment of detainees. Only a third of Americans thinks Congress should investigate. That’s the same proportion as thought so in February.
Republicans overwhelming oppose Congress holding such hearings, and sixty percent of independents agree. Democrats – much like Democratic representatives in Congress — are more divided. Forty-six percent say Congress should hold hearings, while fifty-one percent say they are not necessary.
Interestingly, the NYT poll has a 46/37 plurality saying that waterboarding is never justified, which may mean, per the Gallup results, that Americans are okay with most other forms of harsh interrogation but turn squeamish at that one in particular. I wonder what percentage of them have the wrong idea of what it means:
A U.S. official with knowledge of the interrogation program told FOX News that the much-cited figure represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed’s face — not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on the terror suspect. According to a 2007 Red Cross report, he was subjected a total of “five sessions of ill-treatment.”
“The water was poured 183 times — there were 183 pours,” the official explained, adding that “each pour was a matter of seconds.”…
The memos did not note that the sessions would be made up of a number of short pours — the ones the U.S. official said lasted “a matter of seconds” — and that created the huge numbers quoted by the New York Times: 183 on Mohamed, 83 on Zubaydah.
Pours, not waterboards.
Exit question: How many seconds’ worth of water poured on the face of the guy who destroyed the World Trade Center is “inhumane”?
Blowback
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waterboarding is now a litmus test for many on the left and those who curry favor with them, that’s why you see the increased opposition to that term.
rob verdi on April 28, 2009 at 9:31 PM
As for the fake 183 number, that will never leave. It is now part of the left wing canon of thought along with Valerie Plame, Bush Lied, Halliburton, etc….
rob verdi on April 28, 2009 at 9:32 PM
CBS/NYT poll = LOL!
Why bother?
artist on April 28, 2009 at 9:33 PM
1.5 trillion would not be inhumane…
doriangrey on April 28, 2009 at 9:33 PM
Not sure. Let’s ask the nearly 3,000 people he’s responsible for killing about being “humane”.
While we’re at it, we can determine which is the more humane way: Jumping to your death or burning alive.
amerpundit on April 28, 2009 at 9:34 PM
Hey, my shower pours water on my face everday…should I be logging this?
d1carter on April 28, 2009 at 9:34 PM
How about the time it takes for the children and family members to live their lives in pain without the loved ones of those who were murdered horrifically on 09/11………..?
Seven Percent Solution on April 28, 2009 at 9:35 PM
Bring on the show trials Obama!
AUINSC on April 28, 2009 at 9:37 PM
Yep.
blatantblue on April 28, 2009 at 9:38 PM
Most, probably. Just an indication of the lousy level of education of those who get their information from the MSM. Waterboarding = torture in MSM reporting, without going into very much detail as to what waterboarding actually entails. Waterboarding = torture of the hot irons type = reprehensible under any circumstances.
ddrintn on April 28, 2009 at 9:38 PM
I just love it when people talk about the Constitution concerning torture. The Constitution doesn’t apply to the rest of the world. The Constitution only applies to US citizens.
That and I’ve been waiting to use this one for a bit. Wasn’t it torture for the President to send Air Force One to buzz ground zero.
I wonder who was on that plane. I bet it was a big Muslim donor. We’ll never know, but I’m certain someone was on that plane for such a stunt. Clinton had the Lincoln bedroom. . . how much for a flight on Air Force One?
ThackerAgency on April 28, 2009 at 9:38 PM
Short pours- now that is torture…
2ipa on April 28, 2009 at 9:39 PM
Being American born & raised and having a so-called president that is clearly anti-American is torture. NEVER FORGET 9/11. Protecting terrorists is treasonous.
Ris4victory on April 28, 2009 at 9:39 PM
the Democrats are going to make this subject go bye-bye very soon, and very quietly.
…….
“Congressional Democrats turned up the pressure on the Obama administration Tuesday to start a criminal investigation by a special counsel into harsh interrogations of terrorism suspects.”
artist on April 28, 2009 at 9:39 PM
I only hope those numbers hold up in the face of the ACLU/FOIA lawsuit photo dump that’s coming. You know it’s bad when Odierno is already doing preemptive interviews with Arabic media. This specific issue may go bye-bye, but there’s a ishtstorm a-brewin’, and the MSM/Soros crowd is going to play it for all it’s worth.
Purple Fury on April 28, 2009 at 9:39 PM
This is a trick question isn’t it?!
4shoes on April 28, 2009 at 9:40 PM
Those who insist on playing with fire eventually get burned to hell.
doriangrey on April 28, 2009 at 9:42 PM
waterboarding is being nice to these scum bags we should do much worse than that to KSM.
lavell12 on April 28, 2009 at 9:43 PM
Yes, it was cruel and unusual to do that to his supporters who’d all but forgotten 9/11.
I hope somehow it gets leaked or outed who really was on that plane and why.
4shoes on April 28, 2009 at 9:45 PM
I’m for whatever it takes to keep Americans safe. Now I must say, I don’t really want the details.
TXMomof3 on April 28, 2009 at 9:45 PM
All three of my kids, as toddlers, thought they were drowning if you got water on their face while washing their hair. They seem pretty normal. Using the term loosely you understand.
Cindy Munford on April 28, 2009 at 9:48 PM
12,000,000,000,000,000,000?
darwin on April 28, 2009 at 9:52 PM
KSM has asked many many time to be put to death, to become a righteous martyr…
Is denying him his 72-year-old virgins torture?
OK…on point…
Over the years since 1992, we’ve been told by the MSM that if the polls say it is OK, then let’s go for it…regarding Congressional legislation, the Clinton Administration, the usual suspects.
And as the MSM tells us when polling says it is not OK, then it is bad..i.e., just about everything the MSM covered during the Bush Administration.
So…my math skills might be a bit fuzzy here, but isn’t 55% a majority of some kind?
Let’s use Family Feud as our guide, works better than anything else I’ve seen since 20 January.
“Survey says:”
Congress holding hearings to investigate the Bush Administration — bad…so let’s not do it. I’m fine with that.
Approve harsh interrogations — good…so let’s round up caterpillars, an’ stuff. I’m also fine with that. [Maybe make them watch Spetnaz videos of how Chechen jihadis are interrogated, might make 'em appreciate the Great Satan a little bit more.]
Waterboarding — not good, not exactly, some wiggle room, but OK, not good…but that is water under the bridge already. Reduced to a non sequitur.
Hey, this polling stuff works out pretty well, after all.
Thank you MSM, thank you liberal relativists, I think we’ve found a new way forward here.
coldwarrior on April 28, 2009 at 9:53 PM
I’d think water poured up their nose and over their face would get some of the sand out of their eyes and they might see how their ideals caused them to get water poured up their nose and over their face…
ericdijon on April 28, 2009 at 9:53 PM
You want a turnaround in GOP fortunes? It will happen, and sadly sooner than we think, because there is a serious attack against us brewing out there which is going to get a lot of innocent Americans killed, all because the libs won’t take the steps to protect us.
Bishop on April 28, 2009 at 9:54 PM
Sweep it under the rug. It never should have been brought up to score political points anyway.
However, let’s get some investigations going on Feinstein, Dodd, and Franks. I’ll make popcorn!
capejasmine on April 28, 2009 at 9:55 PM
I don’t know about that. Our current leadership is right down their alley, really. Decoupling from Israel, bowing to the Saudi king…
ddrintn on April 28, 2009 at 9:57 PM
I’m afraid, Bish.
I feel like something is brewing, and I don’t know why. I can feel it.
blatantblue on April 28, 2009 at 9:59 PM
I had to laugh at that. I’m a late 1950′s model boomer and I vividly recall 5 siblings in a tub with shampoo in our hair (pointing straight up, of course) standing and leaning back, arms crossed, to have the rinse water poured from a teapot over our face and up our nose. Gagging and giggling was the norm. I guess that explains a lot – now I’m crying.
ericdijon on April 28, 2009 at 10:00 PM
Far more danger of drowning in the bath or having serious lung injuries in the shower or from having your Mom wash and rinse your hair as a kid than from waterboarding.
coldwarrior on April 28, 2009 at 10:04 PM
I have no sympathy for these people being “waterboarded.”
They are un-uniformed.
They are illegal.
They are not of any official armies.
They specifically target civilians.
They abdicated any “human rights” they had when they went and killed civilians.
blatantblue on April 28, 2009 at 10:04 PM
The more people learn, the more they are opposed to the Kangaroo Kourt of Madame
DeFargePelosi.However, she is the House Speaker, so if she wants the Kangaroo Kourt, let her have it. But she may be surprised at the results.
GarandFan on April 28, 2009 at 10:06 PM
Waterboarding is good with me. When we are done doing that people like KSM should be killed. Why play games?
echosyst on April 28, 2009 at 10:08 PM
The left does, specifically because they side with them. The left has always sided with America’s enemies … Germany, the USSR, Korea, North Vietnam, Saddam … and now radical Islam.
darwin on April 28, 2009 at 10:09 PM
This just makes the arguement against waterboarding look just plain silly.
deidre on April 28, 2009 at 10:10 PM
Looks like a mandate!
Dusty on April 28, 2009 at 10:12 PM
It is silly.
coldwarrior on April 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM
Maybe this is why you feel an ill wind blowing…
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131077
Jihadists sharing strategic target maps.
journeyintothewhirlwind on April 28, 2009 at 10:14 PM
…because after the Right, who is Left, left with to commiserate with?
ericdijon on April 28, 2009 at 10:15 PM
Infinity +1.
Dusty on April 28, 2009 at 10:15 PM
Well, that is true.
They are ideological enemies, but they have a mutual enemy, which makes them friends. We, the strong Americans, are the enemies of both the Pansy Left and Murderous Mujahiddeen.
Silly lefties, if only they knew their heads would be the first to roll under the Reign of Dude Boy Jihadi.
I really wonder what we’re doing. How quickly people toss 9/11 into the rear view mirror.
Maybe some just can’t take the hurt? That I’d understand more. Maybe some just don’t care? I know a few of those.
The left and right has a strangle hold on us — telling us Islam is so peaceful, benign, harmless, and is only being perverted by a simpleton cadre of turban-sporting hicks from the Afgh-Pak border. It’s so much more than that, but people will never figure it out.
Dreadfully, I think that the only light-bulb that will “go off” in people’s heads will be a result of a few thousand more body bags.
blatantblue on April 28, 2009 at 10:16 PM
Or this
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,518191,00.html
Palestinians in Venezuela.
journeyintothewhirlwind on April 28, 2009 at 10:17 PM
I mean, look at how entrenched the enemy is:
http://www.futureofmuslimworld.com/research/detail/the-muslim-brotherhood-in-the-united-states
It’s absurd. It’s frightening, and scary. They operate so silently without our own society. Shit, the 1993 cell did fire arms training at the range we frequent. It’s right in everyone’s backyard!
Cicero was right:
blatantblue on April 28, 2009 at 10:19 PM
Awesome quote. You are learning well, grasshopper. :-)
coldwarrior on April 28, 2009 at 10:22 PM
I still prefer a “no surrender allowed” policy when dealing with terrorists. We wouldn’t have John Walker Linde to deal with and eat up time in the courts. We wouldn’t have President Pantywaist about to release terrorists inside the U.S. Yea that would hinder our intel capabilities, but it would make being a terrorist a more hazardous line of work. Send them to Big Mo’ and let him deal with them. If they are dead, all you have to do is kick some dirt over them and move on to the next target.
Hog Wild on April 28, 2009 at 10:22 PM
Thank Allah for those four years of Latin and Roman Culture in HS!
blatantblue on April 28, 2009 at 10:23 PM
I’ll tell you what torture is: having to still listen to or read about anything regarding KSM except how high he jumped when the 3,000 volts were applied.
Dusty on April 28, 2009 at 10:23 PM
I don’t know about that. Our current leadership is right down their alley, really. Decoupling from Israel, bowing to the Saudi king…
ddrintn on April 28, 2009 at 9:57 PM
The primates can never control all of their monkeys; there is always at least one chimp who wants to make a name for himself or thinks that things are taking too long.
The savages have to test us, they need to know how far President Oflyby will go, so they hit us here to see the reaction before making their big moves on the other side of the globe.
Bishop on April 28, 2009 at 10:25 PM
Of course 55% support it. Only 30% of this country is deranged. Unfortunately their derangement has spilled all over the policy that is now being set in Washington. We have a radical for a president, radical for House Speaker and any number of radicals in his cabinet. I hope they try it. It will be a gift to the right. And if we get hit, God forbid, they will have their heads handed to them and rightly so.
JAM on April 28, 2009 at 10:25 PM
I said it once before, but I’ll say it again. How can we prosecute the prior administration for aggressive interrogations, when we do it to our own guys during S.E.R.E. training?
If we go after the Bush administration, we should go after EVERY administration, including the Obama administration,for performing harsh interrogations on our own guys. When I left SERE, I walked like Frankenstein, because my butt and leg muscles were cramped from the cold. I passed out three times, from standing in hot sun, at attention. I was slapped around and threatened. I was stuffed into tiny boxes. I was sleep deprived. My throat made involuntary noises from shrinking up due to a lack of food or water. I lost a lot of weight and had severe bronchitis.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m glad I went through it. It taught me a lot. I think our guys need the training, but if this administration is going to punish the Bush administration for doing it to the enemy, I’d like to see every person who has ordered it, condoned it, or been aware of it, over the last fifty years hauled in for questioning and prosecuted as well.
Is the Obama administration aware that we are still submitting American servicemen to aggressive interrogation techniques? If they are, somebody needs to go to prison, right?
Star20 on April 28, 2009 at 10:26 PM
Word. Obarfy is gonna get tested. The Dude Boy Jihadis tested Reagan, Carter, Bush I, Clit-ton, Bush II
Time for Obarfy!
blatantblue on April 28, 2009 at 10:27 PM
Copy that, BB.
Too much odd stuff too close together (mexicali flu, the Great Lakes to Missouri flyover, etc. Remember the AQ cropduster connection?)
The puzzle pieces are out there, but where’s the big picture?
Bruno Strozek on April 28, 2009 at 10:28 PM
Alex,I’ll take “If you don’t WaterBoard,Bad Terrorist
Things Might Happen”,for a $1,000.00!
In the US:
7:00AM-8:00AM, WaterBoarding
8:00AM-9:00AM Bathroom break,and breakfast!
——————————————-
Jihady Land,Somewhere near a Cave:
7:00AM-8:00AM,Westerner has his head cut-off,called
Beheadings by Liberals.
8:00AM-9:00AM,Jihadys toss western’s head near the cave
and dump body near the ravine,and Jihadys
head off for breakfast!——-(Snark)
Trust me,Liberals will not get,or understand this,
especially when Liberals still view the US Military
as worse than Jihadys!
canopfor on April 28, 2009 at 10:28 PM
Dude. If you show the picture of this freak again I am going to consider it a violation of The Geneva Convention and turn you into the Democratic party.
watson007 on April 28, 2009 at 10:30 PM
Great quote!!
Question?
I’m assuming this poll was taken before the Pantywaste took a joy ride thru the skyscapers in New York.
Will these numbers change after this stunt?
Knucklehead on April 28, 2009 at 10:30 PM
The same percentage of them that think waterboarding is torture?
strangelet on April 28, 2009 at 10:31 PM
55%? This means Obama and the Left are going to have to work harder to get more people repulsed by harsh interrogation
ToddonCapeCod on April 28, 2009 at 10:33 PM
I heard this explanation from one source early on last week. This is typical of conservatives–they don’t know how to use and communicate simple facts. Some authority should have been in front of a camera every hour parroting the truth.
For crying out loud, I’m betting that we have a millions of Americans who inhaled more water up their noses while learning to swim as kids than these handful of detainees ever did.
Are swimming lessons going to be torture now too?
And, of course, which idiot gives the left a complete pass on the assumption that waterboarding is torture? Our favorite, feckless presidential candidate John McCain. Now, he was tortured. I’d think he be laughing at this nonsense, calling it a trip to the wading pool.
If it doesn’t involve beheadings, losses of limbs, broken bones, electrodes, cattle prods, or branding, it ain’t torture.
More than anything else, pose the question, what would you do if a love one were threatened? Look for a less intrusive form of interrogation?
I wanted Bush, Cheney, et al. on that wall, I needed them on that wall. And I’m damned glad that neither Gore nor Kerry were allowed to get close to that wall.
BuckeyeSam on April 28, 2009 at 10:43 PM
OK, what percent support harsh interrogations of Pelosi?
cthulhu on April 28, 2009 at 10:50 PM
Probably growing soon to near 100%.
coldwarrior on April 28, 2009 at 10:55 PM
Star 20 and SERE training @ 10:24. Great point well taken.
Thanks to Obama and his need to be universally revered and admired over his evil predecessor, the enemy now can do their own version of SERE so their guys don’t cough up the info when some water gets poured on their faces.
When 24′s Jack Bauer gets serious, it’s torture…that’s my benchmark and I’m stickin’ to it.
marybel on April 28, 2009 at 10:59 PM
well, police carry batons, guns AND they use tazers on traffic violators or suspects that resist arrest or even appear to be a threat….
and yet, on a terrorist enemy combatant, who would stop at nothing to kill thousands of americans, you can’t even pour water over his face to get answers…
i say tazer ‘em ’til they talk, then.
none of this has made us stronger… all of the apologizing and “reset button” antics have only made our enemies say “see, we told you americans were bad, even their new president says so.” not to mention the greatest level of damage done to the CIA in … forever?
thedude on April 28, 2009 at 11:05 PM
So strapping someone to a rack while depriving them of oxygen and then threatening to do it again if they don’t answer your questions isn’t torture. That’s just being dishonest.
By the way “sessions of ill-treatment” should be the new “harsh interrogation technique.”
Nonfactor on April 28, 2009 at 11:09 PM
What a great comment. As I read it, I began to think that waterboarding was particularly ingenious and effective for these particular guys precisely because they live in an extremely arid climate, where they really may not have ever been swimming. In fact, in their countries of origin, their big problem is not energy and oil, it’s lack of H20.
Like exploiting an inordinate fear of insects, choosing to use an unpleasant aquatic experience, common to most of us, was actually deviously clever. And it worked.
marybel on April 28, 2009 at 11:18 PM
nope. your classic over-simplification. now what are CIA agents supposed to do? use harsh language? read this article and stop thinking you know better than our national security agencies.
Say It’s Osama. What If He Won’t Talk?
thedude on April 28, 2009 at 11:23 PM
Moralizing prigs often end up like Savonarola.
Cooked by their own meddling menu.
profitsbeard on April 28, 2009 at 11:30 PM
I wonder if those 55% know that less than 10% of the people subjected to torture at Gitmo were “terrorists”. The rest were innocent people who were turned in for the bounty.
I really hope most of you are into this site for the parody and are just a bunch of Democrats here spouting hate and idiocy to try to make Republicans look bad. If so, then you’re doing a great job.
popularpeoplesfront on April 28, 2009 at 11:34 PM
They will never bring this to trial. Discovery will prove too embarrassing to the libs.
bloggless on April 28, 2009 at 11:37 PM
What are you? an idjiot? Someone should turn you in for the bounty.
bloggless on April 28, 2009 at 11:38 PM
popularpeoplesfront:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
And that isn’t evidence.
You DO realize, of course, that AQ’s training manual teaches its followers to always claim torture, abuse, and innocence?
So, do you have any REAL proof?
Didn’t think so.
And THIS coming from the person who enters into a debate without evidence, without solid arguments, and with an outlandish claim they will almost certainly never be able to prove?
The irony is obvious.
Turtler on April 28, 2009 at 11:43 PM
too bad democrats were also aware and in favor of these harsh interrogation techniques and are now realizing the fall-out politically if they pursue “truth” investigations. it’s just the same as every single prominent democrat in 2002 fully in favor of an invasion of Iraq… then turning their back on the military, general petreus and declaring the war lost in 2007, purely for political gain.
so they favor waterboarding, or turn the other cheek, then come out in opposition and take the moral high-ground when it suits them politically. they change the flavor of the kool-aid, but you keep drinking it.
i really hope you’re into the parody of the obama administration knee-capping the efforts of national security to keep your butt safe.
thedude on April 28, 2009 at 11:46 PM
(Laughter)
Sorry, Small One, that “poll” you cite sampled twice as many Democrats as Republicans to get the result they desired. Read the internals.
In fact, like another recent poll, their Republican sample percentage was the lowest it’s been since they started doing these “polls” in 1991. Curious.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/nytint/docs/new-york-times-cbs-news-poll-obama-s-100th-day-in-office/original.pdf
FYI, they bury their polling sample data on page 30 of 32. That’s because they know strangelet here doesn’t have an attention span long enough to read that far.
Del Dolemonte on April 28, 2009 at 11:48 PM
Daggett: 99% of the rest would support harsh interrogations of terrorists if we got attacked again
Daggett on April 28, 2009 at 11:53 PM
As part of my military training I was waterboarded. It’s torture to be sure, but is it unwarranted with animals like SKM? Not at all. The CIA are not going to let them die, and they can go back to their cell to have a happy meal and roll out their prayer rug. No permanent damage is done except in the terrorists mind. Americans captured by KSM’s people were tortured in the most inhuman way and executed by having their throats cut. He has it far better. I’m hoping a gallows awaits him.
simkeith on April 29, 2009 at 12:22 AM
You are a child………….
……….. take a look at my vacation video. This is torture.
Seven Percent Solution on April 29, 2009 at 2:17 AM
Accoring to Shep Smith, as he slaps the desk so hard he shakes free 3 layers of makeup: Any.
Jim Treacher on April 29, 2009 at 4:36 AM
When you have to ask that question you have gone over the line.
When you think of revenge you do not perform waterboarding, it has become torture, a means of punishment more than interrogation.
When you start enjoying the process you are WAY over the line into torture.
When you hate doing it but feel you must compromise your own morals, then it’s not torture, it’s saving lives.
Examine your motives when you contemplate such a procedure. If the motives seem unclear or getting satisfaction then stop.
These kinds of procedures are the nuclear weapons of the interrogation world. You do not use them without a lot of soul searching, even if that soul searching has to be kinda rushed due to circumstances.
{^_^}
herself on April 29, 2009 at 4:40 AM
I was unaware that the people who leapt from the World Trade Center to escape smoke inhalation were strapped to a rack.
Jim Treacher on April 29, 2009 at 4:41 AM
Maybe a second unannounced flyby would increase sympathy for the terrorists.
the_nile on April 29, 2009 at 4:43 AM
They didn’t do it for revenge. They did it to find out who was being targeted for mass murder next. They were meticulous in ensuring that their interrogation did not cross the line into torture. And they succeeded in getting information that saved lives. But your concern for KSM is touching.
Jim Treacher on April 29, 2009 at 4:43 AM
The more I think about Nonfactor’s point, the more I see the validity: Anything that interferes with an individual’s physical and emotional comfort, even for just a few seconds, must necessarily by torture. Besides, who are we to ask someone like KSM questions?
I’m sure that if there had been an attack on Los Angeles, Nonfactor would’ve been among the first to congratulate the Bush administration on a job well shirked.
Jim Treacher on April 29, 2009 at 4:50 AM
Nonfactor’s condemnation of the Navy SEALs who saved Capt. Phillips: “So putting a bullet in somebody’s head just because they won’t march to your orders isn’t murder. That’s just being dishonest.”
Jim Treacher on April 29, 2009 at 5:08 AM
America still has some life left in her, I guess.
Second look at the United States of America!
amkun on April 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM
Commissions and finger-pointing is a complete waste of time. That’s NOT accountability.
Drives me nuts reading that it is.
Accountability in government is in the present. When you throw together a bill that is labeled stimulus but the lion’s share does not create real jobs, then you’re not being accountable to people.
AnninCA on April 29, 2009 at 8:30 AM
You’ve just answered why the libs think it’s so “inhumane”.
LibTired on April 29, 2009 at 8:31 AM
If we showed a picture with one person having had 5 “waterboarding” sessions and one that had not, could anyone tell us which of the 2 persons had been tortured? There is no residual pain even.
A rational Muslim would willing accept consequences for a terrorist attack. He should have not attacked because he knew he could be captured. He also knew he would not get tortured as the muslims describe torture.
seven on April 29, 2009 at 8:56 AM
Hey, my shower pours water on my face everday…should I be logging this?
d1carter on April 28, 2009 at 9:34 PM
Great analogy. The trick is to tilt the head back, eyes closed, and a put a hand towel over your face and you will get the impact.
What makes the program/technique work is not telling the suspect what is happening so they cannot mentally prepare for it.
MSGTAS on April 29, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Except they did tell KSM. They even told him it wasn’t going to kill him.
Jim Treacher on April 29, 2009 at 9:37 AM
They should re-sample New York. After the flyover, some folks might remember how THEY felt after 9/11. Some may even recall that the War on Terror wasn’t a war we started.
hawksruleva on April 29, 2009 at 10:00 AM
herself:
Well, somebody enjoys their lack or reading comprehension.
No, YOU have. Over the line of common sense. Because you are mistaking the question. It is not how much water SHOULD we pour over their heads, it is how much water would be JUSTIFIED by it.
In other words, rather than talking about maliciously inflicting it on them, they are statingg that any amount of water would be JUSTIFIED by the crimes of the given waterboardees, so we are free to use as much as we need to get what we need.
in tat case, I think we are going to have to try about a dozen GIs from WWII who handed us the plans for the Ardennes offensive.
And by its very nature, torture of terrorists IS a facet of their punishment, due to its punishing nature. Sad but true.
Now, on this much, I am mostly on the same page, because you do NOT want sociopaths in charge of torture- they simply will never be able to stop themselves- but would it have been going “way over the line” if one of the soldiers who had lost a relative to KSM’s attacks perhaps have made a slight snicker as he got it?
By itself, no.
Um, the driving force isn’t what makes it torture, it is the METHOD that does. But you are correct: that is the type of mentality you want.
If there is time allowed, than yes. But again, at what level should Shadenfruede be ground for stopping?
Obviously, you have never studied Russian interrogations.
True. But that doesn’t mean you reading-comprehension problem is gone.
See what they are SAYING before jumping on them.
Turtler on April 29, 2009 at 10:18 AM
Treach….I have a question for you.
;)
If it is ok to mildly torture a captive to extract jackbauer style high value intell, would it be ok to mildly rape a captive to extract high value intell?
I mean..it wouldn’t kill them…probly wouldn’t even hurt much.
They will be fine physically afterwards.
strangelet on April 29, 2009 at 10:19 AM
strangelet:
So, do you have those answers to my responses yet?
Too bad, I’m stealing it.
Absolutely not.
Rape by definition is a malicious and brutal attack designed for the attacker’s pleasure, and thus should be well outside the boundaries of any SERIOUS interrogator’s
venue. Those who violate this do so for perverted reasons I don’t even want to know about, and any violations should be punished, ESPECIALLY because the one attacked will likely be in such shock that we won’t be able to ring any REAL data out of him.
No, simply no.
Turtler on April 29, 2009 at 10:36 AM
NRO finally admits teh truth.
Or at least Dr. Manzi does.
Against Waterboarding
strangelet on April 29, 2009 at 11:03 AM
Rape is also about power and control. Rape, torture and slavery all negate the free will of the victim.
Isn’t that true of torture?
strangelet on April 29, 2009 at 11:07 AM
This is a dumb thing to use as a measuring stick. This question can be asked so many different ways and would yield so many different results that reading the tea leaves is idiotic, combined with the fact that this will never be a big election issue.
LevStrauss on April 29, 2009 at 11:42 AM
Given the fact that the techiques provided real intelligence that resulted in further captures of Al Qaeda leaders and avoided a disaster in Los Angeles, I would say that you have something wrong there.
If torture does not produce valuable results then waterboarding must not be torture. Because it produced results. Either that, or your premise is incorrect and torture may actually produce real information when applied judiciously.
Hawthorne on April 29, 2009 at 11:43 AM
Let me see. Why don’t we start with one incident of actual waterboarding for each death at the WTC as a minimum. After all, a little discomfort like waterboarding is minor compared to murdering people. I would not be opposed to ten application per victim.
At some point you have to be practical about this. The idea that you cannot use torture on a prisoner to gain information is based on conventions that assume your opponent is following some rules of honor themselves.
Waterboarding is really a very minor thing. It is more psychological than actual physical torture. It is not like you are breaking bones or yanking out fingernails. The victim will not suffer any real long term damage from it and I can guarantee it is positively civilized compared to what Al Qaeda would do to a prisoner.
Personally, I do not see a problem with this interrogation technique when applied against terrorists like this. It seems to be more of a method to break down resistance like sleep deprivation rather than actual torture. I guess I equate actual torture to a more physically painful experience.
Hawthorne on April 29, 2009 at 11:51 AM
strangelet:
Fair enough.
Not necessarily “all,” for that depends on the victim and on the nature of their personality and will.
And THIS is where looking through Gestapho and the old Kremlin archieves comes in handy.
Not necessarily.
Much depends on HOW the torture is applied. The simple fact of the matter is that there is a difference between steadily slicing someone’s limbs up and rape in that the former is meant to give the victim a pause to recover and spill the beans, while the latter is by defintion almost uncontrolled and carnal. Indeed, our dear friends the Cheka were told as early as 1919 to NOT rape women during interrogation, because it would likely put them into shock and make them effectively useless. It is also worth noting that similar restrictions were put in place regulating how fast one could mutilate an opponent who was actually being interrogated for information (as opposed to being interrogated as a pretense) for the same reason: those in shock are not good for wringing questions out of.
It is also the same reason we did not grievously mutilate KSM: he was more valuable to us alive and in working order.
Not all torture is created alike. That is something you learn VERY quickly when you are forced to study thugs like Heydrich, Himmler, Beria, and Yezhov. Some tortures you use to simply torture for torture’s sake (IE the Sheikh hitting the merchant with the board) and there are some you use to actually extract information (IE waterboarding, the “Russian Piano,” etc). And rape falls into the former due to both its sexual nature and its rabid and largely feral nature.
Please come again.
Turtler on April 29, 2009 at 1:02 PM
That depends ENTIRELY on how much sulfuric acid is mixed with the water.
DrAllecon on April 29, 2009 at 1:33 PM
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