Quotes of the day
posted at 10:30 pm on April 27, 2009 by Allahpundit
“More than ever, America’s atheists are linking up and speaking out — even here in South Carolina, home to Bob Jones University, blue laws and a legislature that last year unanimously approved a Christian license plate embossed with a cross, a stained glass window and the words ‘I Believe’ (a move blocked by a judge and now headed for trial).
They are connecting on the Internet, holding meet-ups in bars, advertising on billboards and buses, volunteering at food pantries and picking up roadside trash, earning atheist groups recognition on adopt-a-highway signs.
They liken their strategy to that of the gay-rights movement, which lifted off when closeted members of a scorned minority decided to go public.”
***
“Among the many extraordinary positions Eagleton takes in this book, perhaps nothing is more startling than the highly original claim that the United States of America is not religious enough. All right, I am paraphrasing — what he actually says is that our nation’s nauseating, wall-to-wall public piety is strictly pro forma. It’s a kind of ideological window dressing for a social and economic system based on the ruthless exploitation of human beings and natural resources, which is about as far from the teachings of that radical Jewish carpenter from Nazareth as you can possibly get.”
***
“Another reason cited by many people who are now unaffiliated is the belief that many religions are partly true but no single religion is completely true. Fewer people, however, say they became unaffiliated because they think modern science proves that religion is just superstition, indicating that the belief that science disproves religion is a less important reason for becoming unaffiliated than disenchantment with religious people or institutions. At the same time that the ranks of the unaffiliated have grown, the Landscape Survey also revealed that the unaffiliated have one of the lowest retention rates of any of the major religious groups, with most people who were raised unaffiliated now belonging to one religion or another.”
Blowback
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Years ago, when my Mom came down to campus on Mom’s Weekend, we were walking across campus when one of the stereotypical Campus Christians at the time walked up to us and asked, “Are you Christian?” Before I could say anything, my Mom said, “No. We are Catholic.” And walked on.
He stayed in the same spot for several minutes, not moving at all, dumbfounded, and probably totally confused as was I.
coldwarrior on April 28, 2009 at 12:08 AM
They won’t sleep easy until Sarah Palin is 6 feet under.
ddrintn on April 28, 2009 at 12:08 AM
You really have it BAD!
Si dolce e’l tormento
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 12:08 AM
You have to admit too that Obama “has a gift” that Bush never had either. He even admitted it to Harry Reid.
deidre on April 28, 2009 at 12:08 AM
I believe he might be here upon your own shores
In one guise or another, dancing ’round these hallowed halls
After all, he had become known
For duplicitous falls
You seek him here, you seek him there
You who know not what you do seek him everywhere!
What should you say to him?
Please tell me how he might entice you
If your paths were to again overlap
Were I DeathToMediaHacks, tell me, what should I do?
Shut your trap!
PercyB on April 28, 2009 at 12:09 AM
I’ll just assume you meant something radically different from how I interpreted your post. Fair enough. Look through this thread and count how many posts are from Christians counting the ways that atheists are evil, cowardly, and generally ill-tempered.
I think I get where that comes from. If you’re going to believe we’re going to hell, it probably helps if you believe we deserve it. Anyway, mystery solved, hopefully. That’s where some of the anger comes from. The rest is just a kind of survival reflex against the idea of a “Christian nation,” which somehow strikes many atheists as a raw deal.
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 12:09 AM
Not Catholic, but I’ve seen this tactic used before…
+1 for your mom.
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 12:10 AM
Why thank you. That was very decent of you. :-)
[file downloaded.]
coldwarrior on April 28, 2009 at 12:11 AM
Hahaha! That’s a great story.I always have standard responses all lined up, but I never use them. My campus is just too darn normal. Then again, thank God for small blessings, right?
Rightwingguy on April 28, 2009 at 12:12 AM
Then enlighten me as to the parts you claim to understand. Please explain the details of my faith, if you speak honestly. I have studied the Bible for years and would like to hear from you, of what the Bible speaks. That way, I have a starting point for our discussion.
dominigan on April 28, 2009 at 12:12 AM
Don’t all Christians believe that all men deserve hell?
It’s an equal opportunity belief system…
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 12:12 AM
Yeah, but if Hell is taken to be nothing more than myth, that should cause no more anger than someone believing in luminiferous aether.
ddrintn on April 28, 2009 at 12:13 AM
“Fewer people, however, say they became unaffiliated because they think modern science proves that religion is just superstition, indicating that the belief that science disproves religion is a less important reason for becoming unaffiliated than disenchantment with religious people or institutions.”
AP:
Funny that you missed highlighting this opinion, which so totally contradicts your own view, as you’ve so often stated, that once people understand science enough, they’ll abandon religion — which is one of the most common, and silliest — fallacies of human thought I’ve run across.
2000 years ago, Joseph knew that a virgin birth was as impossible as we know it to be today. That’s why there’s the whole angel coming to Joseph story in the New Testament. And that’s why the Virgin Birth was called a “miracle.”
2000 years ago, people knew that once a body was good and dead, and started to stink, there wasn’t much hope of a revival. And yet, I had a biology professor who had to go out of her way to make sure that we were aware of her opinion that “what we now know” about the brain would mean that, had Lazarus been ressurected, he would have been an imbecile.
Even as a college kid, I knew enough to raise my hand and ask, “So, you’re willing to believe that some Jesus was smart and powerful enough to bring a guy back from the dead, but you run into trouble believing that he would have been able to fix the dead guy’s brain…. Now that’s some serious critical thinking deficiency….”
“Miracle” doesn’t mean “really amazing whizz-bang science;” it means a proof of divinity that entirely sets aside the scientific framework that the Creator is assumed to have established, in order to prove his/her/its supremacy over that framework. As such, science can tell us nothing about miracles — or the Divine.
notropis on April 28, 2009 at 12:14 AM
Properly studied, the body of Carrie Prejean is the most potent force for theism ever conceived.
- coldwarrior
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 12:15 AM
I sympathize with atheists on that. It isn’t my job (or any theists job) to tell people where they are/aren’t going. For all i know, this could be like that episode of South park where everyone except the Mormons are going to Hell…. and God’s a giant Buddhist lizard… But anyway, I understand your point and empathize. I try to do my part to be inclusive to all people, myself.
Rightwingguy on April 28, 2009 at 12:15 AM
Some atheists are bad people. Some Christians are bad people. Some of both are good people.
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 12:15 AM
Should have wrote, “most of both are good people.”
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 12:15 AM
Absolutely.
Rightwingguy on April 28, 2009 at 12:16 AM
Transpose that to, say, Bob Jones University, have the Campus Christian be a Jesuit priest, and it would be taken to be an example of anti-Catholic bigotry, though.
ddrintn on April 28, 2009 at 12:17 AM
Though not without empathy, I would rather be an atheist in a Christian nation, than vice versa.
States that have run Christianity underground have an abysmal record.
Saltysam on April 28, 2009 at 12:17 AM
Depends on the denomination. Seriously.
There’s a dictionary of Christianity in America, cannot remember the editor, and my son still has my old copy, might find it on Amazon, that lists denominations by type, and within each listing notes articles of faith for each one.
coldwarrior on April 28, 2009 at 12:18 AM
And they seem to find Christianity one of the most if not the most threatening…
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 12:18 AM
“There’s probably no God.” Probably? How about giving us a specific probability and its derivation?
They’re so confused they can’t even write a 4 word sentence without it being intellectual chaos.
Pythagoras on April 28, 2009 at 12:19 AM
I’m only speaking for myself here–
When I get angry at non-believers, it’s because I believe they take a below-the-belt swipe at God. It hurts in the same way it would hurt if someone to a verbal swipe at a family member or someone else who you love and respect.
After the initial anger, I remind myself that God can take it, has heard it all before and doesn’t want me responding in kind.
So I tamp down my response most of the time. I hope I’ve never been unfair to any one on Hot Air–but I can’t be sure about that.
Skidd on April 28, 2009 at 12:20 AM
I’ll give that an “Amen!” :-)
And proof for Hell…I’m in a small campus town in the Midwest,and approaching 60…and she is on the West Coast, and young enough to be my youngest daughter.
coldwarrior on April 28, 2009 at 12:20 AM
Like atheism is something to be proud of. Look at me, everyone, I don’t believe in God. Haha.
/sick.
long_cat on April 28, 2009 at 12:20 AM
Bad Christians go to heaven.
There is never any danger of an atheist going to heaven… either way.
Mojave Mark on April 28, 2009 at 12:20 AM
Hey, Pythagoras, there’s probably no real right triangle… Let’s close the door on your theorem… /sarc
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 12:21 AM
True, but there seems to be more of an effort to get rid of the Christian guy on the streetcorner than to get rid of the village atheist.
ddrintn on April 28, 2009 at 12:21 AM
The most telling in the Pew research in my opinion.
Raised Catholic, now unaffiliated 4%
Raised Unaffiliated, now affiliated 4%
The need for spirituality is all in the same regardless of how you’re raised, and so is the need to look further for logical answers.
Exactly, most of those who think they’re Agnostic belong in the fold not picking up highway trash believing they are independent souls.
Big surprise about half is the percentage most susceptible to changing loyalties and becoming lost souls.
IE; diffidence
Speakup on April 28, 2009 at 12:22 AM
No, that doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t even bother me that many Christians think I deserve an extra-crispy eternity. Upstater kind of hinted at how the Christian belief system can be a little complicated, so sometimes it’s best not to take that sort of thing at face value.
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 12:23 AM
The grass is always greener, until it’s time to cut the grass.
Zaire67 on April 28, 2009 at 12:24 AM
Your reconsidering is the best. No need in getting angry at all. God can take care of Himself.
ddrintn on April 28, 2009 at 12:24 AM
After watching the Taliban kill people for little more than religious sport, discussions like this tonight makes my heart light up knowing we live in civil society.
Now I can put my concerns about my newest stock purchase offer. Would you buy a car from Obama?
Kini on April 28, 2009 at 12:27 AM
Interesting handle. The year Tshombe was kidnapped.
coldwarrior on April 28, 2009 at 12:28 AM
Oh drat!
Oh well, I wound not want to belong to any church that would have someone like me as a member anyway.
MB4 on April 28, 2009 at 12:31 AM
He’s welcome to the streetcorner. A lot of those guys scare more people off from religion than they convert anyway.
Now if he moves from his street corner to, say, just inside the front door of city hall, then that’s a problem.
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 12:31 AM
Why is Blagojevich selling?
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 12:31 AM
Or even worse, a public school or university… /s
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 12:32 AM
No proselytizing at all on any government-funded property? The streetcorner is also provided with government funds.
ddrintn on April 28, 2009 at 12:38 AM
That was nicely said. I’m not a good proselytizer. I don’t respond well when people try to proselytize me, either. I’d rather ask first, than be told whether I want to hear it or not.
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 12:38 AM
No. There is not one good person, not one. All of us have sinned at some time. He have lusted after others, committing adultery with our minds. We have stolen, lied and been angry with others. We have put ourselves and our happiness first.
True Christians know that man is inherently evil, and that all of us deserve the justice of Hell.
God has offered us mercy, through the sacrifice of His Son.
Whether we wish to accept that mercy, and allow Him to work in our lives and change us… is our choice. And he will allow us the freedom to make that choice, and we will reap the consequences of that choice.
But all authority has been given to Christians to warn others of what they risk.
Many will reject Christianity because to embrace it means that Someone else rules their life, and deserves their obedience. But it is our job to warn non-believers and offer a life preserver. How could we reject Christ’s Great Commission and stand by and watch someone drown?
I was saved at the age of 31. I have walked as an atheist, and now try to serve as a poor reflection of Christ. I am not perfect… far from it.
But I have searched, and researched the Bible. And instead of weakening my faith, it has dramatically strengthened it.
If you have honest questions, please ask… and I will try to explain.
God bless.
dominigan on April 28, 2009 at 12:39 AM
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 12:31 AM
I God We Trust. But I don’t trust this deal.
How dare they lemons for shekels?
My religion…. Doe Rea Me!
Kini on April 28, 2009 at 12:39 AM
Christianity elevates the human soul.
The jealous state is denied the sexual release of crushing human dignity when such a suitor competes.
Saltysam on April 28, 2009 at 12:40 AM
Then you’re in luck. Mine is perfect for you, because it would never have you. It’s a miracle! A miracle, I tell you!
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 12:41 AM
I guess the atheist just has to hope he’s right. ;)
ddrintn on April 28, 2009 at 12:41 AM
I don’t trust anything put forth by this Precedent or his monkey feet running when hits the ground Timmy G.
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 12:42 AM
If only you had a sense of humor,
I’d take you more seriously.
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 12:44 AM
“just inside the front door of city hall, then that’s a problem.”
Why should that be? Isn’t “just inside the front door of city hall” public property? Shouldn’t the First Amendment apply there?
Suppose that the same person, in the same place, should wish to express an opinion objecting to the cuirrent City Mayor, or Governor, or President — would that be a problem? Suppose that person, in that same place, should express an opinion that the 10th Amendment wasn’t being properly respected — would that be a problem?
So, you’re saying, if a private citizen steps onto taxpayer-funded property, and decides to announce his/her personal, private opinion that God is Great (or Alla’hu Akbar, or Santa Claus is Coming to Town, or Beyonce has nice thighs, or Bush is a traitor), that that should be a problem. I don’t get it, unless you have a problem with the whole First Amendment thing.
notropis on April 28, 2009 at 12:44 AM
True; statists can not tolerate competition.
Saltysam on April 28, 2009 at 12:40 AM
ddrintn on April 28, 2009 at 12:44 AM
You are the first person ever to notice that. I think of it as the year Africa died.
Zaire67 on April 28, 2009 at 12:45 AM
Are you a Jehovah’s Witness? I’m not home.
MB4 on April 28, 2009 at 12:46 AM
MB4 on April 28, 2009 at 12:31 AM
That was clever, Groucho. :-)
Saltysam on April 28, 2009 at 12:46 AM
;)
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 12:46 AM
The sins of Leopold will take a long long time to wash away.
coldwarrior on April 28, 2009 at 12:48 AM
There has to be a balance between free speech, freedom of religion, and the “respecting an establishment of religion” clause. I’m not a lawyer, but that was my simplistic attempt at an answer to what the appropriate tradeoffs should be.
Schools shouldn’t be teaching religion. I’d think Christians would be on board with that, considering the numerous and heated disagreements they have between sects.
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 12:50 AM
not so hard but I like this:
Christianity for me is waking up to a Sun that nourishes, a seed that has crept up from the Earth to be nourished, the bird that wakes me up to witness it all before I join the rat race and do it all again. And I thank Him for every day I get to see the Beauty in it all over a beautiful cup of Columbian coffee.
There is a God. Make no mistake. The beauty of Nature is not by accident. And we as Americans are not here by accident. We lead the World.
seesalrun on April 28, 2009 at 12:51 AM
No. I’m not.
After being saved, it was a friend (who was a lapsed Catholic) that challenged my new-found faith. When I could not answer his questions, I decided to find out the answers. What I found reaffirmed my faith, and we have had many discussions since then. Because of this, 1Peter 3:15 has a special place in my heart.
dominigan on April 28, 2009 at 12:52 AM
Hey, I don’t disagree with you that Public Schools should keep out of many issues and stick to the the 3 R’s – that is assuming that Public Schools should exist…
Public Universities? If we’re going to have them, I find this policy hard to implement.
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 12:53 AM
Hey everyone–
I’m going to bed in a few minutes but I have a question.
Is it true that apacalyps is back on Hot Air?
Skidd on April 28, 2009 at 12:54 AM
Hmmm dunno
Getalife got banned though (RIP)
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 12:54 AM
Some free speech is more equal than others.
Saltysam on April 28, 2009 at 12:55 AM
That was lovely.
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 12:57 AM
I’m sure it is hard to implement, for primary education, too. The courts have their work cut out for them when they hear establishment clause cases.
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 1:00 AM
Agreed, I have read ‘The Everlasting Man’ and ‘Orthodoxy’. I’m not catholic, but he is right way more than he is wrong. And so freaking funny! The mold has been broken.
daesleeper on April 28, 2009 at 1:01 AM
To proselytize means more than just to promote religious beliefs and associations. It can also mean to promote political beliefs and associations, or really any form of belief.
There is a lot of non-religious and anti-religious proselytizing that goes on in public places.
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 1:03 AM
Hate like hell for any vigorous debate taking place in schools.
Saltysam on April 28, 2009 at 1:03 AM
LOL!
I meant rigorous!
Saltysam on April 28, 2009 at 1:04 AM
I can assure you that any Christian who says any soul “deserves” the sufferings of hell, does not understand their faith well enough for that charge to hold and merit at all.
Hell is not handed down, it is a choice of self over God. I apologize if anyone has said you deserve such a punishment, because that is an awful thing to say, even dare I say to evil men such as Hitler and Muhammad.
I really hope you rebuke anyone who makes that charge against you with the fury it deserves, and you best believe I’ll be there to back you (or anyone else for that matter) up. Cause frankly…I’m sick of people uttering such horrible things to other people, it hurts those they curse, and it hurts my credibility as a Christian. And as a Christian it is my duty to keep both others and my faith as clean and pure as possible.
angelwing34215 on April 28, 2009 at 1:10 AM
I love talking about Jesus. It isn’t proselytizing, it’s just telling people who Jesus is. I can’t help it really. It’s amazingly joyous to understand that the Messiah has come. God has come to Earth to let us know He hasn’t forgotten us. . . not only that, but He is in complete control over everything!
To me, it’s just AWESOME! There is nothing more amazing than Jesus. I don’t go looking for preaching or anything. But I certainly don’t shy away from it because it is GOOD NEWS! Why wouldn’t you want to tell people good news?
I wish I could tell people in the Muslim world about Jesus. I am certain that they would convert if it were presented appropriately. They LOVE God. If someone told them God loved them and proved it with what Jesus did, I’m certain that they would listen. I am convinced of it.
It isn’t your job to convert someone. . . that’s what the Holy Spirit is for. But talking about Jesus gives me hope. He’s coming back and it’s AWESOME! He’s only coming back once, and He’s staying this time.
It’s amazing how it all fits together too putting history in context. People lie. . . I count on what is written down rather than what people tell me.
ThackerAgency on April 28, 2009 at 1:10 AM
If you really miss adults are in charge now, you can go back through the threads and respond to it. A moment ago, I noticed a poster rebutting an old post from it.
Old trolls may be banned, but their posts never fade away.
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 1:12 AM
angelwing34215 on April 28, 2009 at 1:10 AM
Hear, hear.
Saltysam on April 28, 2009 at 1:13 AM
Always the frustration part huh, there isn’t a thing you can do to convert a person, can only give them the idea of what the faith is about, so troublesome.
angelwing34215 on April 28, 2009 at 1:13 AM
Yeah, but it’s not fair if she can’t respond. It’s bad enough that her deceased, ACORN registered husband can’t respond… Feel bad for her…
OK, maybe the above isn’t fair…
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 1:14 AM
Troublesome? Perhaps saddening, but that’s what free will is for.
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 1:15 AM
Ditto that.
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 1:16 AM
I’m being as kind as I can be, Upstater85, just please, getagrip!
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 1:17 AM
FWIW, I thought vigorous worked just as well. There’s plenty of debate at schools without forcing teachers to offer religious instruction. I’m not talking about a religious studies class, here, just to be clear. I’m talking about things like leading kids in prayer at a public school, or teaching the bible as inerrant fact.
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 1:18 AM
Oh, I’m trying… Someone call in Janet Napolitano so that she can re-educate me!!! I need help… and not from any of you… from the GOVERNMENT!
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 1:20 AM
In case anyone misses mom…
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 1:22 AM
Huh?
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 1:23 AM
Would it be OK to teach the things in the Bible that ARE facts in history class?
Solomon’s Temple for example. . . it’s there. who built it, why, when? Muslims deny Solomon had anything to do with it. . . it’s documented in the Bible, would it be OK to teach that in history class?
How about King Herod? He was a ruthless King and ordered the killing of babies under 2 years old at one point. That is documented in the Bible too.
Lots of examples of historical fact that are contained in the Bible. it would be a shame if we had to depend on Muslim history in classrooms to teach the history of the middle east.
Not trying to start an argument here. . . but there are facts in the Bible. And lots of things, if they aren’t facts, should probably have been left out but weren’t.
ThackerAgency on April 28, 2009 at 1:24 AM
“any Christian who says any soul “deserves” the sufferings of hell….”
I thought everyone deserved those sufferings….
“For ALL have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.”
“The wages of sin is death.”
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
From what I learned, the natural state of humans was a destiny to Hell, and only the sacrifice of Jesus saved all of humanity from that fate.
And as best I can tell, that’s a prety generic, mainstream interpretation of Christianity.
On the other hand, the late Dr. Martin Marty once got in trouble for proclaiming:
“Although I am certain, by faith, that hell exists, I am also compelled, by the same faith, to proclaim my understanding that no one is there.” (This was in the context of a brilliant sermon on the “judge not” scriptures.)
notropis on April 28, 2009 at 1:24 AM
Yes, people lie. And liars write. So what is written down may not be the truth.
I didn’t come to God by reading or listening, but by a miracle that I do not discuss. It’s private, between me and God.
However, I did a lot of reading and listening to come to my choice of how to practice my worship of God. And I chose the Catholic Church. When I explained my desire to be baptized as an adult and enter the Church, the priest smiled and asked me, “Well first, do you believe in God.”
I smiled back and said, “No.”
The dear old father’s eyes blinked a couple of times before I continued:
“I don’t believe. I know God exists.”
There was a very long silence after that.
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 1:25 AM
Yesterday, if I remember correctly, Drudge had a picture of her that looked like she was sucking her thumb!
So, if you don’t comply and adhere to the vast right-wing conspiracy theory, you will further discombobulate poor Janet. And of all people in DC, she’s one of those who has great need of combobulation.
So, let that be a lesson to you, young man!
Loxodonta on April 28, 2009 at 1:32 AM
Loxodonta, by saying I believe what is written, I mean I believe what the Bible says. . . not what some priest or preacher tells me it says.
We have the dead sea scrolls that verify the texts are as they were originally written. It is very important that you believe that the Bible has NOT been changed. Muslims believe in the people of the Bible, but they believe that the Jews changed the Bible and so God gave the ‘original Bible’ to Mohammed. This is why Muslims don’t believe Christians and don’t become Christians. They believe that the Jews misled Christians by changing the Bible.
During Luther’s time, the priests said indulgences were in the Bible. If you sinned, you could pay your way out of it – pay the Church of course. Most people couldn’t read so they didn’t challenge the powerful Church that could sentence them to eternal damnation so they just paid up.
By saying I believe what is written, I mean the Bible. I listen to teachers (priests, pastors, etc) but I make my own conclusions based on what is WRITTEN rather than what the people say. . . even the Catholic priests. . . and the pope.
ThackerAgency on April 28, 2009 at 1:33 AM
Absolutely, and thanks for asking. There’s a difference between how you would teach the bible in sunday school and how you would teach it in history class. In history class, it’s a source, subject to the same evidentiary demands as any historical writing. In Sunday school (depending on where you go to church) it’s the infallible word of God, regardless of whether there’s any evidence to support the biblical narrative.
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 1:33 AM
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 1:18 AM
I suppose, if you’re talking about compulsory, government K-12 schools, I agree.
Then again, if we were to purge the schools of inerrant facts and leading kids in dogmatic recitations, we would find that religious instruction has a lot of strange bedfellows cloaked in a secular costume.
Saltysam on April 28, 2009 at 1:33 AM
The specific examples you raise may fall outside the scope of a high school history class. If the origins of Solomon’s temple really is important for high schools kids to learn, then I wouldn’t object to teaching kids where it came from and how historians can verify it. I don’t think the courts would object, either.
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 1:37 AM
Eh… I know you aren’t the one that brought this up, but I don’t know if I would even feel comfortable with teaching of “the facts.”
In my 3rd year of undergrad, I had a Hum. lecturer (no, he didn’t get his Ph.D.) that taught some of the “facts” from the Bible. In the end, we got a taste of his personal views. I was an adult and could form (and had) my own opinions, but I’m not sure it’s such a great idea to have the getalifes of this world teaching the “facts” in the Bible.
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 1:38 AM
Yeah, good point. I’d rather they learn about History of Western Civ.
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 1:39 AM
And perhaps after the Greeks (if that avoids “controversy”)
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 1:40 AM
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m talking about.
It’s getting late, so I’m not touching the “secular dogma” debate, other than to say the fossil record speaks for itself. Uh oh.
RightOFLeft on April 28, 2009 at 1:42 AM
Can o’ worms.
Saltysam on April 28, 2009 at 1:42 AM
So I’ll repost it, verbatim, then go to bed, since it wasn’t answered:
notropis on April 28, 2009 at 1:42 AM
Yeah, I’m starting to think that I just don’t trust the Public Schools to adequately educate American Children…
Eh, so I give up. Burn down the schools! /s
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 1:44 AM
Forget it Upstater85.
RightofLeft just wrestled the the Can O’ Worms award from your hands.
Saltysam on April 28, 2009 at 1:44 AM
So do you agree with Jesus’ words in Matt 25 when he describes Hell as eternal punishment? If you do not believe that a soul deserves the punishment of Hell, then God is committing an injustice… and yet the Bible describes God as just. How do you reconcile that?
All of us, because we have all chosen our own desires and rejected God at some point in our lives, have sinned against God, and deserve the justice of Hell. Hell is hell because it is separation from God. And separation from God is punishment.
So yes, all of us deserve eternal separation from God.
But because of His mercy, and love for us, he has provided a way for us to repent and be reconciled to Him, and thus join Him as an eternal reward in Heaven.
But it is our choice whether to accept His mercy and be reconciled to Him.
dominigan on April 28, 2009 at 1:44 AM
Yeah…
I know, I’m an extremist, but I just don’t trust the government and many of its employees – fossil record or not – uh oh
Upstater85 on April 28, 2009 at 1:46 AM
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