Liz Cheney vs. Norah O’Donnell: “The tactics are not torture”
posted at 2:45 pm on April 26, 2009 by Allahpundit
A few days old but we’ve had a steady stream of requests for it. Hotline has the transcript; don’t quit before the end or you’ll miss her thoughts on Palin and Meghan McCain. Speaking of McCains, Maverick may differ with Cheney about whether waterboarding constitutes torture but they agree that a “truth commission” would be a very bad idea. A good question: “[Enhanded interrogation] was bad advice. But if you criminalize bad advice on the part of lawyers, how are you going to get people to serve, and what sort of precedent does that set for the future?”
Actually, here’s a better question: If we all know it’s going to happen anyway in certain circumstances, why not legalize it? Kathleen Parker, unsurprisingly, doesn’t get it:
In his book “Shouting Fire: Civil Liberties in a Turbulent Age,” Dershowitz proposes that since torture is a given under those certain circumstances, then “torture warrants” should be issued by a judge.
He is right that most of us would do whatever necessary to save our child, possibly even torture a kidnapper. Likewise, if we stumbled upon someone trying to harm a loved one, we would kill the attacker if necessary to stop him.
But those are both darkly impassioned environments. It is by the cool light of day that we devise our laws. And it is by that same light that we judge our actions.
The law would protect you if you had to kill an attacker to stop him from killing, which is to say, it’s those “darkly impassioned environments” that law is most concerned with. Why leave a CIA agent in legal limbo if, however likely or unlikely it may be, he finds himself with a detainee in a ticking-bomb scenario?
Do yourself a favor after you watch the clip. Go listen to the archived audio here. Three minutes.
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Doesn’t sound very indie of you… I thought you were going to cure us with your open arms… How can you cure us if we are kicked out?
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 4:48 PM
Given a choice between either being water boarded or being exposed to this new flu virus, I thing I would choose water boarding. Obama seems much more concerned about pontificating about water boarding from the past than about flu viruses in the here and now however, but then what do I know.
Don’t worry, be happy. Adults are in charge.
- getaclue
MB4 on April 26, 2009 at 4:48 PM
ddrintn:
You certainly can be killed in training. The military is dangerous under any circumstances. There are lots of ways to get hurt other than someone shooting at you.
Terrye on April 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM
Torture is not legal.
And neither is smoking pot, but that didn’t stop obama.
what you are trying to equate is the morality versus the legality of the act.
However, you cannot reject the end results.
Lives were saved.
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM
“We”
Classical Liberal vs. Progressives
Progressives pirate “liberal” with antipathy for both Classical liberalism and conservatism. I repudiate their assumption of the term with the “neo-” that they loath.
maverick muse on April 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM
The hysteria of the torture fans is great to watch, now that their morality is being revealed for the empty posturing it always was. Hypocrites.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:50 PM
Nah, “cons” are in the majority on this one. The lunatic fringe is simple fringe.
ddrintn on April 26, 2009 at 4:50 PM
So here we have conundrum, getalife consistently says Support the troops” yet is against measures that may actually save the lives of “troops” and civilians at home.
On the battlefield she would prefer captured scumbags NOT be forced to give up any inforamtion that may prevent deaths.
She is against measures that may force scumbag terrorists to reveal IED sites and weapons caches.
Exactly how much does getalife actually support anything to do with the military?
Ripping babies out of the womb is not torture to getalife, apparently neither is having limbs blown off by IEDs.
Good support there getalife.
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:50 PM
thank you. Wanna quit shifting the debate and tell us how you justify Bush’s illegal torture policies?
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:50 PM
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 4:48 PM
We tried but cons fought on day one.
There is nothing good coming from the cons and the gop.
Torture and no to cleaning up your mess.
Here is the kicker:
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:51 PM
Oh there you are getalife! Did you end up joining the Army or the Marines to support your President in Afghanistan, and maybe Pakistan later? You are still here mentally masturbating on Hotair so I can only “assume” that you went in on some kine of delayed enlistment plan. When is your report date?
MB4 on April 26, 2009 at 4:51 PM
Again, the trolls fail to point out how illegal combatants have protections.
Oh well!
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:52 PM
Seems to me that the CIA and the US House of representatives–the latter is a law-making body–made the EIT legal in 2002. So there’s no difference in the legal aspect of the two.
You simply love terrorists more that you love innocent human life. Admit it and you’ll feel better.
baldilocks on April 26, 2009 at 4:52 PM
We are neo-liberals…
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 4:36 PM
Ain’t it strange how the world is supposedly in love with them, yet they have to keep rebranding themselves at least once a generation?
ddrintn on April 26, 2009 at 4:52 PM
Good catch. Perry, like all these fools, is a hypocrite and a bombastic grandstander. The federal govt should tell him to secede where the sun don’t shine.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:53 PM
Yes, but in much of the world, classical liberals are called neo-liberals. I know they hate the “neo” label, but I’m not about to give it up.
I think Fascist suffices just fine.
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 4:53 PM
So you gave up on us? It’s only been 100 days…
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 4:54 PM
Again, they called it torture and illgal.
I will support the troops.
You support failed, cowardly, so called leaders.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Idiots believe that law exists when a world descends into war.
When a “conventional” war exists in the future, and the enemy wants information from a captured US warrior, they will do what they need to do to get the information they want, with absolutely NO sentiments that since the US has banned torture, they will respectfully reciprocate the gesture. Especially if they are convinced that they can defeat the US.
The only deterrent that they would consider would be the fear that the US will win and that the US, and only the US, had the muscle to enforce and maintain international law.
These people grew up in the era of Walt Disney. They are more dangerous than the enemy.
Saltysam on April 26, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Money phrase…“severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm…
Sounds like it has to be prolonged mental harm, not short term, by the LAW… therefore if they are told AHEAD OF TIME, which they were, that they would not die, or even suffer any lasting harm from Waterboarding, and as waterboarding DOES NO LASTING physical Harm…
It could be argued, in a LEGAL sense, that waterboarding is LEGAL.
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Isn’t it in that things that George Washington wrote? /s
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Huh? Then how do come up with such an exact number?
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:56 PM
Silly indeed. Abortion leaves an innocent human being dead. Waterboarding causes no permanent harm and leaves a terrorist babbling information which saves lives. Arguing morality with a liberal is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Basilsbest on April 26, 2009 at 4:56 PM
Liz Cheney was fantastic! That leftist propagandist’s agenda was crushed mercilessly.
FloatingRock on April 26, 2009 at 4:56 PM
Is that the best moonbats can do? If the feds aren’t going to do anything to secure the order, the least they can do is help Texas deal with the feds’ mess.
ddrintn on April 26, 2009 at 4:57 PM
Odd as that description seems to fit you and getawhatever to a T!
MB4 on April 26, 2009 at 4:57 PM
I think only another 9/11 will get unity in our country.
I said this in the primary about Obama’s unity argument and was right as usual.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:57 PM
Please tell us how you and your sort will compel this action.
baldilocks on April 26, 2009 at 4:57 PM
prolonged mental harm
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:57 PM
FIFM
183 waterboardings in one month isn’t “prolonged” to you?
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:58 PM
Their argument if what is legal versus what is perceived illegal to prevent loss of life is absurd, doncha think.
Abortion maybe legal, but it is murder. A life is lost.
Waterboarding isn’t murder, lives are not lost, just made uncomfortable.
Neither is a choice, but the end result is quite clear.
It appears the troll doesn’t see the flaw in their logic.
Not withstanding.
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 4:58 PM
Grow Fins:
Oh please. There is nothing new here. Pelosi signed off on this 7 freaking years ago. And we are talking about 3 people who were in custody, not thousands.
You see you guys love to make up crap. Like the 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians, it makes you feel good. Meanwhile you ignore the hundreds of thousands found in mass graves from Saddam’s time.
This was not torture, it was enhanced interrogation. It was discussed and there was oversight and if Pelosi or Rockefeller or any other cowardly little Democrat wanted to make an issue of it, they had their chance.
But they wanted to make sure that they were safe. And then when the coast was clear, here comes the self righteous, dishonest, lying, grandstanding, distracting, showboating hypocrites.
So go do your Elmer Gentry routine for someone else.
Terrye on April 26, 2009 at 4:59 PM
When is your report date again now, getalife? Are you and Grow Fins going in on the “Buddy Plan” to support your President in Afghanistan, and maybe Pakistan later?
MB4 on April 26, 2009 at 4:59 PM
But Obama hasn’t given up on us right? Because he promised unity and bipartisanship… I’m going to give him another 100 days… what about you?
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 4:59 PM
How exactly does that undermine my argument? If we didn’t go to war with Iraq, Saddam will still be killing people and paying suicide bombers off? Your point is………….?
terryannonline on April 26, 2009 at 4:59 PM
Norah O’Donnell is what’s wrong with the media..they’d rather give their opinions or report possible motives rather than just report the actual news.
StevefromMKE on April 26, 2009 at 4:59 PM
Your own arguement prooves my point… if they had to do it that many times to get him to break, it could not have been that bad, or lasting.
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 5:00 PM
If the troops were to be killed without the information that waterboarding could quickly provide, you would choose to see them mangled and killed.
You do not support the TROOPS.
You support Pentagon lawyering.
Saltysam on April 26, 2009 at 5:00 PM
Actually, you don’t see the logical flaw yourself, which is probably attributable to your brain-rotting diet of shrill rightwing media and GOP talking points. The law is the law. Torture is illegal.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 5:00 PM
In the context of a war, not only legal but moral. And in the case of KSM, a moral imperative.
It’s quite pathetic that liberals don’t have the stomach to discomfort the mastermind of 9/11. They have no such qualms about viciously attacking the man who defended the country after these attacks.
Basilsbest on April 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM
Only you can stay true to your beliefs and values to move to a country that tortures.
For your happiness, get out.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM
*border
ddrintn on April 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM
That does seem a mite excessive. I don’t floss my teeth that many times in a month.
MB4 on April 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM
If we are using waterboarding to train our troops,
then how can you call it torture?
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM
“if”………. Jack Bauer lives!
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM
Wow, MSNBC taking Obama’s side completely, who would have guessed this would be how things would be with Obama as president?
We have CNN reporters brow-beating people on the street with Obama talking points, and we have MSNBC hosts brow-beating interviewees with Obama talking points.
I thought this sort of thing was bad? Where’s Media Matters and all them on “propaganda” now?
Seixon on April 26, 2009 at 5:02 PM
You must not be a Democrat or you are lying through you teeth…
Does the term illegal alien give you angst?
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 5:02 PM
Says the Punk in a basement, to the people who have fought for this country…
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 5:02 PM
So you NEVER, EVER speed? Never? Not even 5 mph over the speed limit?
terryannonline on April 26, 2009 at 5:03 PM
I’m usually a lurker on this site, but this torture subject is driving me crazy. It’s not that difficult of a subject. If torture can save American lives, do it!! You’re either for us or against us. It’s almost as if Americans are defending this great nation on two fronts, one from foreign enemies and one from within, the politicians.
Tim B.
Tim_B on April 26, 2009 at 5:03 PM
If they had forced flossed his teeth it would have probably taken less times for him to break.
MB4 on April 26, 2009 at 5:03 PM
Thanks for the heads up… I realize that the Right Wing Extremists are probably next to be tortured…
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 5:03 PM
In fact, more people in the military died in non-combat while Bill Clinton was President than died in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan combined when Bush was President.
Del Dolemonte on April 26, 2009 at 5:04 PM
According to what? Your definition of the law?
Pahleese.
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 5:04 PM
So what other laws get suspended by the “context” of war? Rape? Murder? Corruption? Who decides?
You don’t deserve to live in America, because clearly you don’t appreciate her values.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 5:04 PM
Dont let the trolls harp on this “torture” meme , their on child god obama does allow “enhanced interrogation”
This memo-gate is a big problem for the Obama cabal , because the majority like to protect the troops , but the liberals dont. They opened pandoras box.
the_nile on April 26, 2009 at 5:05 PM
I would guess that most of us have been witness to a old Leftist tactic: separating words and phrases from their definitions/connotations and assigning to same whatever definition/connotation a particular Leftist feels like using.
Thus do the word and phrases:
“I support the troops.”
“legal”
“torture”
“winning”
“America, love it or leave it.”
etc., carry whatever meaning Leftists like getalife and others assign to them. This is the language of relativism, a state where right and wrong do not exist. It’s chaos, evil and Hell.
baldilocks on April 26, 2009 at 5:05 PM
A D’s definition of the law… uh… well… yeah…
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 5:05 PM
I’d say he’s one toke over the line.
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 5:05 PM
Ouch! That was one beautiful bitch-slap.
Del Dolemonte on April 26, 2009 at 5:05 PM
Norah O’Donnell is an example of the left wing idiocy in America. Torture is their montra, and it has one purpose…. to keep Obama in the White House. The left would have us forget what happened on 9/11, so they have to convince the American people that Bush and company tortured the poor prisoners. O’Donnell lost here and they hopefully will lose in 2012.
afotia on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
Torture is indeed illegal. However, you’re confusing waterboarding, cold rooms, loud music, benign bugs with the stuff all of us really think about when we think about torture, real torture … you know, finger nails pulled out, digits cut off, holes drilled in the body, acid burns, torch burns, limb removal, eye removal, testicle smashing …
That kind of stuff.
I pose this question to you … were torture “legal”, could we then do all the nasty stuff as well?
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
So how do you defend that Obama hasn’t outlawed waterboarding .
the_nile on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
Definition of torture under US Law… once again, please tell me how waterboarding creates “PROLONGED MENTAL HARM”.
If not, then your whole MEME of torture is moot.
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
I’ll be waiting here for you to come by and compel it.
baldilocks on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
Do you think illegal immigration is one of her values?
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
Yes, she was excellent.
If we have another attack on US soil, liberals will blame everyone but themselves, the perpetrators, and the culture that promoted terror.
Meanwhile, we will continue to stay rationally focused on the threats and request that American security be given a higher priority than the partisan tantrums the president’s fans are currently pitching.
By their words and deeds, our first anti-American president and his fans are increasing the likelihood of another attack. To most followers, this is not their goal; they simply cannot see this is happening. But for some, another attack is what America deserves.
Not God bless America, God damn America!
Loxodonta on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
Maybe then he could do something about the porous border, ya think?
ddrintn on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
So torture is like speeding now? What is it with you people? What part of “illegal” don’t you get? I thought conservatives believed in ‘absolutes’ that couldn’t be finessed by “context” or “circumstance.” Life is sacred, except when we say it isn’t?
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
Not by this President.
We are better than the last criminals.
Chin up American.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
There’s room for you in Canada
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
That’s what I’m trying to illustrate.
baldilocks on April 26, 2009 at 5:07 PM
Nice dodge. No dice. This thread isn’t about immigration.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 5:07 PM
What this all comes down to is whether you seriously believe that the United States is irreparably damaged in some fashion by using torture to extract information from captured terrorists. There really isn’t any other reason to oppose it if it works.
The U.S. was not irreparably damaged when Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, jailed journalists, and summarily executed suspected spies. The U.S. was not irreparably damaged when FDR threw thousands of American citizens into internment camps or firebombed Dresden. The U.S. was not irreparably damaged when Harry Truman nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki and killed 150,000 civilians. The U.S. was not irreparably damaged when LBJ dropped napalm bombs on the Vietnamese – a people who never attacked us.
Yet somehow we are supposed to believe that the United States has irreparably damaged itself by using non-lethal interrogation tactics on known terrorists responsible for the brutal deaths of thousands of Americans, to get crucial information on possible attacks in the U.S. that could have killed thousands.
I really want someone to explain this to me. It isn’t good enough to just say you are personally offended by these tactics because of your “high ideals” or to repeat some mantra that “torture is illegal.”
rockmom on April 26, 2009 at 5:07 PM
Obama hasn’t outlawed waterboarding.
the_nile on April 26, 2009 at 5:07 PM
Well, we are marching down that road, but your confidence in Obama may be well-founded… I’m just struggling with my faith in him.
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 5:08 PM
baldilocks on April 26, 2009 at 5:06 PM
Still a free country.
You are free to leave.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 5:08 PM
No, unfortunately he hasn’t.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 5:08 PM
Graw Fins:
They did not water board someone that many times. I will try to find the link, but I read a description the other day of how they counted off on this. It was not individual water boarding you are talking about, it is pours of water. They literally counted the pours. The numbers of sessions were nowhere near that many, It was more like 5 a month at most.
But that is not the point. These men were not broken by this, or impaired, they were not insane or hurt or maimed. If they could actually be waterboarded that many times and not have any long term effects it does not sound like torture to me. It sounds like harsh interrogation and if they had not done that interrogation and if more attacks had taken place people like you would have been demanding accountability from the Bushies for not protecting you.
hypocrites.
Terrye on April 26, 2009 at 5:09 PM
I think it’s time to remind everyone just what we are fighting. A prime time television UNedited beheading, dragging bodies through the street and a hanging or two. People just do not want to see what we are fighting. Most are too cowardly to face the truth.
Picture yourself walking down the street, and you see a plane crash through a building that a child of yours is working in. What do you wish would have been done to stop it? Would bamboo shutes under somebody’s fingernails even make you pause to make a second thought? It wouldn’t me.
Reality just isn’t convenient is it?
oakpack on April 26, 2009 at 5:09 PM
Correct and he probably won’t.
baldilocks on April 26, 2009 at 5:09 PM
So , then even “your amrikka” waterboards.
the_nile on April 26, 2009 at 5:09 PM
Well, you opened the can of worms. You’ve turned this thread into the law and American values… Nice dodge yourself…
So what is your opinion of
“illegal” drugs and “illegal” immigration?
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 5:09 PM
Wait a minute, did we kill Khalid Sheik Mohammed or Abu Zubaydah? I must have missed that.
rockmom on April 26, 2009 at 5:09 PM
Except that IT’S AGAINST THE LAW! And you call yourself “conservative.” Do you even know what it is?
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 5:09 PM
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 5:08 PM
You can judge him in the next election.
Democracy.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 5:09 PM
It isn’t about Perry and secession either, but that didn’t stop you.
ddrintn on April 26, 2009 at 5:10 PM
Hahahhahahaha … hahahahahahahahahaha
Oh my! You haven’t a clue do you? Ever read the Declaration? The Constitution? The Federalist papers? Hey! How about the Bill of Rights?
You people have trampled on this nations values for the past 50 years. What an ignorant clown.
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 5:10 PM
Nancy Pelosi approved it.
rockmom on April 26, 2009 at 5:10 PM
No, we tortured him. You know “torture”? Illegal ‘n’ all?
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 5:10 PM
getalife:
Liar.
You could have left anytime in the last 8 years and yet here you are lying and taking up space.
Love it or leave it and I mean hot air. Go ahead, hit the road. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out honey.
Terrye on April 26, 2009 at 5:10 PM
So what? Is that what this has come down to. A team sport?
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 5:11 PM
Do you? Are you 100% behind the law?
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 5:11 PM
If we do … who will protect you?
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 5:11 PM
“Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real.”
– Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
“I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.”
– Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
“We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
– Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
“Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”
– Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
“We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.”
– Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”
– Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
MB4 on April 26, 2009 at 5:12 PM
But I just feel like he doesn’t care about me and my beliefs. I feel ostracized…
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 5:12 PM
Very Chamberlain-esk of you!
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 5:12 PM
“You people.” Nice. How do you reconcile your love of torture with your braying about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 5:12 PM
Frown Fins:
No, it is not torture. Saying it is will not make it that. Passing a law in 2006 to stop something is fine, but calling it a crime retroactively is not legal.
BTW, your President, Barack Obama made sure that there was a loophole out there to give him the right to order this kind of interrogation in certain circumstances, does that make him a criminal?
Terrye on April 26, 2009 at 5:12 PM
From you OWN LINK!
…“severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm…
Definition of torture under US Law… once again, please tell me how waterboarding creates “PROLONGED MENTAL HARM”.
If not, then your whole MEME of torture is moot.
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 5:12 PM
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